Do I say anything to my son?

[SadieO]

Do I stay here, because the history and background is laid out.  Or do I start a new thread, with a new subject?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Panda39]

Hi SadieO

I'm glad to get an update too and hear the communication with your son has opened up   

To answer your question yes I would start a new thread.  Maybe start it will a little intro but we all can click on your name to look at past posts if we want more information (and you can do that with all of us too)

Panda39

[thefixermom]

My comment is very brief for SadieO.  I would hope for you to be in a frame of mind where the immature self-centered treatment of you by your DIL does not intimidate you.   To be intimidated just means you take her actions to mean something, when actually, they only mean to convey the lack of social graces and maturity on her part.  It is my hope that you can rise above that and be who YOU are without anyone able to change you.  People are transparent and she certainly enjoys the power you are letting her have over you. I understand that you need to be somewhat manipulative to be in contact with your grandchildren... .but perhaps you can develop a pity for her inside and not let her behaviors attach themselves to your self worth. You will carry yourself better as a result and be immune to her or her mother's behaviors. Obviously, they have found away to bond (DIL and her M) by forming an "us against' you" relationship, which is perhaps the only way her mother can even have a relationship with her.   Do what you can to be gracious with your son, when the time is write acknowledge and apologize for wrongs of the past and as others have suggested, do not mention the wife. Let him see you for who you are, without being in a rush to do so, it could take some time... .and eventually, the contrast between you and his wife will come up to his awareness. DO NOT cry or beg or act subservient to him or to her. Be calm, and continue to be warm hearted. That is who YOU are and no one should be allowed to change that.  And you and hubby start having fun together doing other things with other people, if you have not already. Give love, be patient.

[Kwamina]

Do I stay here, because the history and background is laid out.  Or do I start a new thread, with a new subject?

I agree with Panda39! If you want to focus on some specifc aspects, you can indeed start a new thread. See you around

[SadieO]

Dear Fixermom,

Thank you for your wise advice. It is excellent and quite perceptive. Thank you.  That is calm, self-assurance is the I want to head.  Thank you, everyone, for "listening" to me and seeking to understand first!  The fact that I knew you cared, softened my heart to receive.

Sadie

[livednlearned]

Hi SadieO,

I wanted to say hello and tell you how much I admire your approach to understanding what is happening with your son and your DIL, and your honesty in how you feel. Being able to focus on your son's feelings cannot have been easy when you were and are hurting so much. It feels awful to be the lowest rung on the pecking order, and it takes a lot to be able to withstand that kind of forceful criticism alone. How does your husband support you when you're going through these experiences?

I was married to a man who is BPD, and my family were targets of his anger and control, so I was in a role similar to your son. My mom in particular received the worst of it. She almost had a nervous breakdown because of the way my ex treated her. He would talk to everyone except her, avoided eye contact with her, put her down, humiliated her in public, and would not let our son use the name she wanted him to call her instead of grandma. She could do nothing right, he even criticized the way she breathed   . She is also a very emotional person and never witnessed conflict in her family of origin, although there was certainly plenty of dysfunction. No one in our family had any skills to manage the volume of conflict we experienced. Alcoholism runs through my family, and there is not a lot of emotional health and conflict repairing skills. I have had to learn in order to help my relationship with S13.

I'm divorced now, but when I look back at my mom's dynamic with BPD ex, I can see that there were the usual BPD dynamics in my ex (extreme rejection sensitivity, labile emotions, slow return to emotional baseline). These issues can trigger a lot of pain for the targeted person, and it is awful to be on the receiving end. My mom, lacking the skills, seemed to inflame the issues more than others in our family. I was at a loss as to why this was so. Now, almost 5 years later, my son has some BPD traits (he's 13), and I see my mom tripping the same triggers in my son. Only as S13 got older did I realize that there was something in their dynamic that was specific to them.

To try and help my mom go through this with S13, I've given her books to read about validation. We deconstruct interactions so she can understand better. I'm proud of her for being willing to hear what is not always easy feedback. She is a very kind person. She is also an invalidating person because she has such intense needs for validation of her own. I think this is common in families where there is emotional dysfunction.

There are some underlying generational "rules" involved in this, I think. When children feel invalidated by parents, it is a much more difficult type of invalidation -- it reverses the natural order of parent-child. Therefore, it can be difficult if, as the adult or parent in the relationship, you have unmet emotional needs and a BPD child in your life (no matter what age). Your DIL will likely be less tolerant of invalidation from you than she might be of a sister, for example.

The good news is that there are skills and tools to make things better. The bad news is that the core work is hard. It takes a lot of soul searching and courage. Nothing has been more painful in my life, not even my BPD divorce, than looking at my own role in the dynamic with my son. I have to be patient with my mom, understanding how challenging the struggle is. It is changing not only years of certain behaviors, it is changing generational scripts that she inherited from her family of origin.

My mom was not able to validate my ex -- she just couldn't do it. Her own emotional needs were too much, and BPD ex husband's emotional immaturity was such that he only had one speed, and that was to gun for my mom. It was so stressful to me that I hated when she came to visit. Over time, I stopped inviting her. She only came when it was a graduation ceremony or holiday. My parents never stayed with us, and they never visited for very long.

I don't know if any of this bears any similarity to your situation. I have some hunger to know exactly what it is like in other families, how they do things, how they interact, and so hope this is not more information than is helpful for you. I was thinking, while reading your post, that if my mother had the courage you are showing, and the willingness to look at your dynamic with such bravery, that it would have meant the world to me.

[SadieO]

Hello livednlearned,

Thank you for posting.  I appreciate hearing from you and learning about your experience having a spouse with BPD, now a son with BPD traits, and a mom that you are helping to educate in the area of validation skills.  

Yes, it's horribly painful  to be the lowest in the pecking order. But it's not hard to focus on my son's feelings, perhaps because he is my child and I want the best for him.  My husband is very supportive!  It took him awhile to see what I was seeing.  The first time he saw my dil "come unglued" on me, we were both clueless about BPD. At the time, he may have thought I deserved it.  :'(  I truly was alone and unsupported.  

In the meantime, I had stumbled across "Stop Walking on Eggshells."  I was consuming it like a starving person.  Still, my h didn't want to hear any of that "psychological" stuff.  It wasn't until my dil "attacked" my son, while we were sharing a meal, that he started to see that something was amiss.  On that particular visit with them, she had several episodes of absolute raging.  My husband is a minister - - he married my son and dil.  But her behavior caused him to take our son to the side and tell him, "I will support you in your marriage, but if you decide to divorce her, I will walk you through it."  All he could say as we drove away was, "That B___!"  

That was twice he'd watched her be UGLY.   That was six or seven years ago.  Now, he listens to all that "psychological stuff" a little more.  Though, I am the one that still devours and studies it.  Mostly because, learning about BPD in particular, not only makes sense out of a crazy situation, but helps one stay on top, or walk out of it at least.

I was married to a man who is BPD, and my family were targets of his anger and control, so I was in a role similar to your son.

 I feel for you, as I do for our son.  I would like to understand this burden more.  So I don't add to the burden.

I feel for, and with, your mother , being the recipient of this emotionally abusive behavior:  

My mom in particular received the worst of it. She almost had a nervous breakdown because of the way my ex treated her. He would talk to everyone except her, avoided eye contact with her, put her down, humiliated her in public, and would not let our son use the name she wanted him to call her instead of grandma. She could do nothing right, he even criticized the way she breathed  

  I have been there :'(

I take it that you are referring to "validation skills" when you say,

My mom, lacking the skills, seemed to inflame the (BPD) issues more than others in our family. I was at a loss as to why this was so. Now, almost 5 years later, my son has some BPD traits (he's 13), and I see my mom tripping the same triggers in my son. Only as S13 got older did I realize that there was something in their dynamic that was specific to them.

 

And, now with your help, your mom is learning validation skills. That's admirable.  Previously, her need for validation would normally override her "motherly/adult" responsibility to give validation?  Yes, I think this is a common thread in families with emotional dysfunction.  

I know that before I went through counseling as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, validating others was difficult because I had no idea how.  I was turned inward so much, that I couldn't reach outward.  I had erected walls to keep people from loving me, and made me incapable of loving others.  Those walls had to come down.  And, they did.  btw  On my Headstone, I want "She loved! . . .  Because He first loved her."

I learned to love.  I learned to empathize.  I learned to validate.  Nowthen . . . I do have to work at this with my dil; because she usually has me in a defensive mode. Quite frankly, most times she is emotionally abusive to me.  I often operate in the FOG the she creates.  Or, I am stumped by her illogical thinking.  Or I am taken aback by her treatment of the children!  Oh, the stories I could tell.    She's a very difficult person.  I find myself going "numb"  to block out the craziness.

All that said, though, I validate her when I can.  When I see something admirable, I'm quick to note it.  I not consciously aware that I invalidate her, I certainly don't try to invalidate her.  But, perhaps I do at times - - especially if I look at the world through her BPDeyes.  And when I do insult her or hurt her feelings, I apologize.  

What are the "skills and tools that you used to make things better.  I'm not afraid of hard work.  What is the core work?  I am curious about the nature of the soul searching that you speak of.  The role that you played in the dynamic with your son.

I admire your devotion as a mom to a S13 with BPDtraits, and as a daughter that cares enough about her mom to help. Do you think that the traits that your son are exhibiting are genetic, learned, or a combination?  I see our gchildren mimmic their mom's behavior, more now than when their dad was at home  Thank you for your willingness to share your experience.  And, for your validation of my courage and willingness to look at my part in the family dynamics.  I hope it makes things better for my kids.     

SadieO

[livednlearned]

I know that before I went through counseling as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, validating others was difficult because I had no idea how.  I was turned inward so much, that I couldn't reach outward.  I had erected walls to keep people from loving me, and made me incapable of loving others.  Those walls had to come down.  And, they did.

I really like how you phrase this! "I was turned inward so much, that I couldn't reach outward."    That describes so well what learning about BPD has been for me too. Thank you for describing it this way.

I learned to love.  I learned to empathize.  I learned to validate.  Nowthen . . . I do have to work at this with my dil; because she usually has me in a defensive mode. Quite frankly, most times she is emotionally abusive to me.  I often operate in the FOG the she creates.  Or, I am stumped by her illogical thinking.  Or I am taken aback by her treatment of the children!  Oh, the stories I could tell.    She's a very difficult person.  I find myself going "numb"  to block out the craziness.

I imagine that this must be even harder for you because she is not your immediate child. My SO has an ex-wife with BPD traits and all of my physical defense responses kick in when I'm around her. My breathing gets shallow, I get a nervous twitch in my eye, my mouths gets dry, heart rate goes up. Do you think that "going numb" is a way to handle the fear response? I've been taking a mindfulness-based stress reduction class and this is helping. I pay attention to the physical feelings and try to stay present. Not easy.

I certainly don't try to invalidate her.  But, perhaps I do at times - - especially if I look at the world through her BPDeyes.

Being willing to do this, to try and see things through her eyes, says a lot about you. To be abused like that, and then take a step back and consider how she is experiencing the world, even while you are the target -- that is hard stuff.

What are the "skills and tools that you used to make things better.  I'm not afraid of hard work.  What is the core work?  I am curious about the nature of the soul searching that you speak of.  The role that you played in the dynamic with your son.

Mindfulness and validation are probably the ones that have made the biggest difference. Mindfulness helps me create a small pocket during intense moments so I can pause before I respond, instead of knee-jerk reacting. It is helping me learn to stay curious instead of being certain, which is hard when S13 is overwhelmed with feelings. I have to pay attention to the story I'm spinning in my own head, usually some worst-case scenario that I'm bringing to the interaction, making my own emotions triple in intensity. Boundaries -- that has been a big journey. I think of validation as one pillar, and boundaries as the other. Paying attention to my boundaries is the most important form of self-care that can create a big disturbance at first, and has remarkable effects when you stick to them. I see my son actually internalizing some of my boundaries and cannot believe we made it here. For this to happen, I had to let myself be vulnerable, which is not something I've allowed myself much in the past. Asserting boundaries while remaining vulnerable is one heck of a balancing act    

Do you think that the traits that your son are exhibiting are genetic, learned, or a combination?

My son's psychiatrist talks about epigenetics, which I interpret to mean that there are sleeper genes that can be triggered by environmental conditions. I suspect my son has a predisposition toward sensitivity, what some people call a sensitive genotype. In a securely attached family, it's possible he would've been more emotionally resilient. In our family, though, there was a razor thin margin, and with a BPD father and alcoholism in my family, it seems inevitable that S13 would pick up some of the traits. I used to say when he was a kid that he had big feelings, and while I was attentive and nurturing, I wasn't necessarily validating him.  

Do you wonder about your DIL's BPD and how she came to have these traits? It sounds like her family has endorsed her behavior (laughing at her temper).

[SadieO]

Update. It does not surprise me that things are "up-and-down" especially in the BPD world.  Our dil talked to us and gave us the news that our 6 year old gd was given something for her anxiety, our 4 year old gs has been diagnosed with ADHD and apparently, our son got drunk and lost his phone.  I'm not surprised by any of it.   

I haven't heard from our son in awhile.  He's carrying a heavy load.  And so is our BPDil.  Our grand kids are "home alone" with a mom that's not stable.  And, a dad that is a long way from them.  

I won't cease praying for my son and dil, and our grandchildren.  I've been reading, and journaling.  Also practicing "radical acceptance" and "mindfulness." Doing OK.  Will see our BPDil and grandchildren July 4th weekend.

[SadieO]

Hi livednlearned!  What an excellent question!

Do you wonder about your DIL's BPD and how she came to have these traits? It sounds like her family has endorsed her behavior (laughing at her temper).

Yes, I do.  My dil suffered physical as well as emotional abuse from her father.  I am in agreement with the hypothesis that the BPD neurological set up is in place, and the abuse triggers whatever genes, etc.  that determine personality.  It's the old idea of nature plus nurture. 

As to her family; they all dance around our dil, doing whatever it takes to not set her off!  And we are expected to do the same.     

[livednlearned]

As to her family; they all dance around our dil, doing whatever it takes to not set her off!  And we are expected to do the same.     

It is like this in my family with my uBPD brother. My parents -- my mom in particular -- are like hostages. She is so afraid to be split black and not see my nieces. Although relieved that I'm not longer married to N/BPDx, who was always gunning for her, and it always felt like we were on the tip of being estranged. The only way around that, at least at the time, was for me to go underground with my relationship to my parents. I only talked to them when I was alone and often from my work phone.

It's sad how we end up living when someone around us is undiagnosed and untreated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SadieO]

Livednlearned,

My parents -- my mom in particular -- are like hostages.

That's what it's like for us, and I know our son is a hostage!  Perhaps, a willing hostage.  What is that syndrome where the hostage starts to identify with the captor, for survival purpose - - Stockholm Syndrome?  I literally watched that happen with him.

My husband and I feel like hostages.  If we make a wrong move, we might lose contact with our s and gch. I have to give my h credit here - - he does not take her bs, and she seems to respect that.

The only way around that, at least at the time, was for me to go underground with my relationship to my parents. I only talked to them when I was alone and often from my work phone.

Our son has to go underground to have a relationship with us.  These emails that we send back and forth are a relief.  A breath of fresh air :D  Even still - - she knows everything we talk about, the things we send in care packages, etc... .Either he volunteers the information, or she drills him until she gets it.  That's what she does to me.  It's scary.  

I have poor boundaries and I know it.  I'm the "lover" puppy dog that just loves everybody, and I can't understand why they wouldn't love me back.      I've never had anyone in my adult life that is so "evil" or "mean" for lack of a better word.  I don't even know where to begin, in terms of creating "boundaries."  I take the phone off the hook, if I think she might call. And I've handled some of her insults well, if they are blatant, by saying "I can't listen to this right now, I'm going to hang up" for instance. But if she sends me a sniper shot, a bullet that comes from out of nowhere,  I'm "dead."  Or fatally wounded.  Someone said, rightfully so, that she has a power over me, that I allow.  I don't want that any more.

I can say that she's worn me out.  She's a lot of work.  And, I'm just tired.   Actually, it feels good not to care so much.

One thing that I worry about, sometimes, is that we encourage our son in his relationship with his wife.  We praise him for supporting her and the kids. I do that in my letters to him.  "What if" in his "heart-of-hearts" he wanted out?  Are we unintentionally making him feel more trapped?  He's never indicated to us that he wants out.  He's so quiet, and unwilling to talk about his feelings or their relationship.  We give him that space, and don't press.  One time my husband asked him, in private, about their relationship and how he was feeling.  Our son just shook his head. So in lieu of all that, I think we should continue to support and encourage.  It's not healthy do dwell on the "what ifs" right?

As I said earlier, I will continue to pray for my s and dil.  The more I pray for her, the more empathy I have for her.  I also pray that I will be able to operate out of a Wise Mind. Will be able to care, and at the same time, learn what it means to have healthy boundaries.

SadieO    

[SadieO]

I just wrote my son a short message:

Hey Son,

I'm just wondering how you are doing?  You know, you can always talk to Dad or me about anything.  We are here for you.

Mom

[SadieO]

Another thing that helps as I pray for my son & dil, is that I can put them in God's hands.    I can relax, knowing that He is the perfect parent, and He loves them both as much or more than I do.  I know that this is not a Christian support group, which is fine.  I could have said "higher power," "universe" etc... .  Anyway, as I see it, that is creating a boundary of sorts. 

[SadieO]

  Yay!  I got an immediate reply from our s.  He's doing really well.  Enjoying his work and training.  Even gets to go on a sight seeing trip and play tourist for a while.  I'm so happy for him.    My fears about his well being have been erased, and my prayers answered.      

[SadieO]

Also, my dil called and talked to my h asking his advice about puppies.  She's happy.  Yay  In many ways my h is a healthy father figure for her.  So, it turned out to be a very good day.  

As a side note, even though it was a good conversation that I was listening to, my "gut" reaction was anxiety.  I had to talk to myself, "It's ok self."  There's no reason to be anxious.  whew.

[Dibdob59]

Hi Sadio

I can relate to your feelings of anxiety during conversations, even if they are going well. And the "yay" or "phew" at the end of it when the disaster you were expecting hasn't happened. The flood of relief when the crisis has passed (for now).

My therapist however advised me that my emotions indicated an over investment in other people's lives and quite rightly pointed out that my (roller coaster) emotions relied too heavily on what was going on, particularly in their lives or relationships.

He was right.

He counselled me to aim to be in a place where I was not so invested in a particular outcome as that was unhealthy for me as I couldn't control what my BPDs would do or say. The rush of elation I got when everything turned out OK (that time) would surely be followed by despair when things did not go so well another time. My desire for things to go a certain way in conversations or events just hiked up my feelings of fear and worsened my anxiety.

Trying to get to a place of peace and acceptance no matter how the conversations or events go is so hard. But it is far better for us if we can head in that direction.

Sending you hugs

Dibdob

[kelti1972]

Hi Sadioo:

Welcome to the board, glad you are reaching out and looking at this.  It is very interesting, because I can relate to you with my dil.  She has never been diagnosed with anything or in therapy for anything, she is just an adopted only child. Our 33 year old son never ever comes over to see us alone with our grandchildren.  They are our only biological grandchildren, our others are all adopted.  Anyway I just don't understand, but have had to work at this for so many years not to loose our son all together. If is wasn't for my husband and oldest other son I woudl be so lost with this dil.

I am sure she is narsasisstic and I don't know what else.  I have tried to detach and give her what she wants within reason.  She too has so much control and power over our son.  I have really tried to understand her and so have the rest of our children.  Most everyone else in the family feels she possess and controls their brother and they never hear from him or feel he is the same since her married her.

My grandchildren are so precious to me, but I have to realize I see them when she decides I see them.  I have asked my son a number of times about seeing us with just the grandchildren and he never answers me or follows through.  I too wonder if he doesn't want too or he married her to get away from us.  He was always very focused and into himself, a gifted child and all.

Anyway I relate and our son wasn't emotionaly abused or physically abused.  He was one of my favorites and there may also have been some emotional emeshment.  His biologiacal Dad died when he was three, but his father now loves him so much and they have been very close in the past. 

I think that Panda is so wise about you letting his seperation from his wife take place and let him get some perspective and then try to talk with him.  Support to you and hugs.   Kelti

[SadieO]

It hits me like a ton of bricks.  My dil doesn't like me.  Nor my husband.  We have bent over backwards to please her, to show her love and support.  But, bottom line remains.  Our dil does not like us.

We helped celebrate our third grandson's first birthday.  We were not greeted, or given the time of day by our dil and her mom.  Now that's become "normal."  However . . .

we were not allowed to hold our young grandson!  One minute I see my husband with our gs in his arms.  The next minute, he's gone.  He told me, dil took our gs out of his arms.  

I got to hold him about 30 seconds before my dil came and took my grandson from me.  She whispered in my ear, "You can't have my kids."  What is she talking about?  

I remember her telling me a long time ago, that she doesn't like people to hold her kids.  Why is that?We are these kids' grandparents.

It hurts.

[SadieO]

Ripping our grand children from our arms, is the ultimate hurt. And she knows it.  

Do you know how hard it is to keep my mouth shut?

[lbjnltx]

It hits me like a ton of bricks.  My dil doesn't like me.  Nor my husband.  We have bent over backwards to please her, to show her love and support.  But, bottom line remains.  Our dil does not like us.

Most likely she perceives your presence in the lives of her husband and her children as threatening.  People w/BPD (pwBPD) have severe abandonment fears... .if my husband loves his parents his love for me is diminished, if my children love their grandparents their love for me is divided.  Anyone that takes their attention from her is perceived as a threat. 

PwBPD usually don't have the skills to understand that love multiplies... .not divides.  Are you able to follow this explanation SadieO?  It 's like when your child was 2 and he became jealous when you held another child.

Ripping our grand children from our arms, is the ultimate hurt. And she knows it. 

Do you know how hard it is to keep my mouth shut?

I can only imagine! :'(

As another person of faith, I know that we are able to hold close to us the one's we love through prayer and positive loving thoughts. 

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SadieO]

Thank you for your reply lbjnltx   

Most likely she perceives your presence in the lives of her husband and her children as threatening.  People w/BPD (pwBPD) have severe abandonment fears... .if my husband loves his parents his love for me is diminished, if my children love their grandparents their love for me is divided.  Anyone that takes their attention from her is perceived as a threat.

You're quite right.  I see this very clearly.  We have seen it in many different situations. 

PwBPD usually don't have the skills to understand that love multiplies... .not divides.

Yes, I do understand.  This is an excellent explanation.  I've never heard that a pwBPD, usually doesn't have the skills to understand that love multiplies . . . not divides. 

How, does a DBT therapist help their client to understand?  How do I help my dil to understand?   

BTW  I listen to audible books a lot.  And I have several about BPD on my shelf.  What is the most recognized book on Dialectical Behavioral Therapy? 

Thank you,

SadieO 

[SadieO]

Also, lbj;

I appreciate very much what you said,

As another person of faith, I know that we are able to hold close to us the one's we love through prayer and positive loving thoughts. 

SadieO

[SadieO]

There is something else about inappropriate behavior that needs to be addressed:  My husband bought our 4 year old gs a camp shovel for a birthday gift.  Grampa likes tools, and wants to be a good male role model while our son is deployed.  He thought that he and his grandson could go out and "work" in the yard.  Just joking around, my h, says, "I hope it doesn't look like a weapon."  ha ha  Then things  go out of control. 

My dil grabs the shovel with one hand and our gs' shoulder with the other.  She gets in our gs' face starts screaming at him, "Are you going to hit someone with this?  Are you going to hit someone with this?"  As she repeats the question, her anger quickly intensifies.  Our gs looks scared to death, as you can imagine.  The crowd around her stands stupefied.  That poor child.  How do you stop this rapid-fire escalation from happening?  Fortunately, in this case, someone had the sense to say something neutral that distracted her. 

This is not an isolated case.  Just one more example:

A couple of years ago, my dil takes her one-year-old's birthday cake in one hand, grabs our 4 year old gd by the back of the head, and without warning, smashes the cake in her face! Can you imagine how my gd felt?  Humiliated, confused? My dil flounces off and says, "It's only cake.  It's not like it will scar her for life."  But, it will.  Especially as often as it happens.

Again, friends and family stands there perplexed.  What's the best response?

My dil insists on living at a distance from family.  She stays as isolated as possible. 

[lbjnltx]

Fortunately, in this case, someone had the sense to say something neutral that distracted her. 

Again, friends and family stands there perplexed.  What's the best response

Redirecting verbal altercations is one tactic.

The person who should address these kinds of abuses is your son.

If the child is in danger calling CPS is an option.  Comforting the children and validating their feelings is important to minimize (as much as possible) the damage.

Dialectical Behavior Therapy Workbook is very good... .

There are other books that incorporate DBT into their coping/learning text... .like Valerie Poor's Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder written to Parents and other carers.

DBT therapists practice the skills with their clients, helping them to stay in the moment,  learn to achieve balance between their emotional and reason mind, increase their distress tolerance, etc... .

When we are in wisemind (balanced mind) we are able to think and respond vs feel and react.

lbj

[SadieO]

Do I say anything to my son?  That's the question that I posted, and it is the rhetorical question I carry in my mind.  It's difficult to be on the receiving end of my dil's verbal and emotional abuse, and to witness the minds of her children be screwed with.  All of this exacerbated while our son is away, and unaware of what's going on back here. 

No, I won't run to him crying and upset about my dil's ill treatment of my h and I.  However, I want to be educated and "ready" . . . when he's ready . . . to talk.  I've just gone through a six hour workshop entitled, "Treatment of Borderline Personality: Understanding Intense, Impulsive, and Volatile Relationships."  I learned more than ever.  And things that I "knew" became suddenly crystal clear.  I had a lot of "a ha" moments.  I started studying eight years ago, after stumbling upon "Stop Walking on Eggshells."  The more I study and learn, the more empowered I feel.  I have not "arrived" but I'm headed in the right direction.

I keep a journal specifically dedicated to our experiences with our pwBPD, insights and things I've learned.  One of my entries is "How does he (our s) do it?  How does he deal with her constant unending control?  How does he cope with her insanity?  Why does he tolerate her verbal attacks directed at him?  Her emasculating words . . . that he is too stupid to put a crib together, so she has to do it.  That he is a lazy ass and that's why he has a lazy ass job, etc. etc...   He wakes her and she slaps him, because she thinks he is one of her abusers.  How can he stand to watch his children be tortured by her erratic and illogical behavior directed at them?  Does he see the brainwashing? Does he see that their young souls are being damaged?  Has he come to see all of this as "normal"?  How do I plan to respond when he comes to us with his concerns? 

Surely, he can see more clearly during these many months while he's away.  I pray that his eyes will be opened.  I pray that we will all be wise in our actions and reactions.

[lbjnltx]

I will pray for that too Sadie0

[SadieO]

Thank you, lbj You're an angel    BTW "The Dialectical Behavior Workbook" and "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" are in my wish list.  I have several goals in my "to do" list; order a set of training videos by Marsha Linehan. Also, I have been given a couple of names of DBT therapists "in my area" though they are quite a distance from me. But, down the line, I want to schedule an appointment for myself.  Somewhere in my notes, I have the name a qualified therapist near where my "kids" live.  I'd wager there are more now.  And, if the opportunity arrises, I'll have a name to offer.

I just started listening to an audible book entitled "The Practicing Mind."  So far, it's good.  When our dil was here visiting, and playing her "games" I purposefully practiced "mindfulness" and found that I was more calm, and felt more empowered.    

As you can see, I am a proponent of "bibliotherapy!"  Sometimes, I jokingly call my books, my "counselors."      If I have a question, I just pull one of my "counselors" off the shelf.    

[lbjnltx]

Knowledge is power!

[SadieO]

Knowledge does help.

I just received a phone call from my dil.  We talked for a long time.  It's perplexing because she was so b___y and mean towards us a few weeks ago.  I kept waiting for the hammer to fall, and for her to drop a criticism in for me.  But, she didn't.  I was stealing myself for "the remark", wondering how I was going to handle it this time.  I've had my fill.  No crying and apologizing.  I stayed present, empathic and validating.  When I hung up, I breathed a sigh of tired relief!  

She's under a lot of pressure, handling the kids, etc. by herself.  She misses our son desperately and is afraid for his safety.  Is going to be driving across the country to see her dad.  She is not optimistic, because she has come to grips that her dad is never going to be there for her.  She hopes that he is sober.  He's a very crass, abusive, and unstable person himself.  My dil's "dark side" looks very much like her father's.  I can see where childhood trauma has played a large part in her "Borderline."    Of course I feel for her.

While we are talking, one of the kids tells on the other, "... .said a bad word to me!"  Mom screams a threat at the offender, ":)on't say sh###t or I'll kick your ##s."  I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.  I think to myself, hmmm,":)on't you get it?"   Vulgarity is also a norm.

I'm grateful that the conversation went as well as it did, but as usual, I'm drained.  It takes a tremendous amount of emotional energy!  I am nice to her as I am to anyone else.  I feel guilty saying negative things about her, but I've learned that stuffing the frustration isn't good for my emotional health.    kudos fellow sojourners