Dropped on my head, left without a home and daughter Pt. 3

[formflier]

Been thinking about this little piece of advice for a bit.  Very interested in comments from Grey and others on this advice.


I agree that you should be ready to validate your exGF that the r/s is over.

"Be ready" is key. 

Make sure you don't bring it up.  It will only cause trouble. 

If she brings it up, stay friendly and warm... ."I understand our r/s is about our daughter".

What are some other ways to keep it short... .?

I'm hesitant to recommend he agrees or says "our r/s is over... " 

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it is important to realize how a tendency to "help" and "fix" and advise can feel invalidating to another person, especially someone with BPD, BPD traits, and just insecurities.

Such as the cutting up the food for your child incident. To her mother- this did feel invalidating-"you are a bad mom". Of course you don't let your daughter choke, but if possible - letting your GF (or exGF whatever the situation is) take a moment to fix it herself could feel more validating.

I have noticed that the slightest suggestion to do something different- to my H - could lead to an angry response. He hears this as an insult to his capability. So, I have learned to choose my battles in this one.  

I realized this one day speaking to my BPD mother. Our tendency in the family was to help her, do things for her, and fix issues for her. We all did this as a matter of habit.  One day she mentioned some repairs to be done in her home, and I made a suggestion. Her response was out of proportion -a dysregulated verbal assortment of " you don't think I can do this myself, how dare you tell me what to do" and so on. Although my mother seems to elicit others to help her, she also seems to resent being helped. It feels invalidating to her.

I think it helps to pick our battles. Boundaries, safety, the child's safety- these are non-negotiable. But I think it is also important to recognize when we should step back, not advise and not fix things for other people.

[formflier]

Making a "rule" or "personal boundary" can help with the "fixing" habit.

I try to ask before making a suggestion.  Sometimes I realize I should ask in a different way.

Such as:  Today I walk in laundry room, it appears my wife is trying to get our dryer to run on "air fluff" (no heat mode)

She pushed a couple wrong buttons.  I had a lot on my mind... .but still sort of "automatically" followed my "rule" and asked first. 

"What are you trying to do?" was what came out.  Fairly quickly I realized I could have asked a better question... .

She was snappy when she came back with "I know how to run the dryer... " 

My response was "ohh... "  and I walked out of the room.  No need to belabor an issue.

With hindsight I wish I had asked "Would you like my help?"... .try to be friendlier.

I've long since given up the habit of just doing things for her or stepping in to help.  I used to all the time.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I'm sure she will absolutely panic. One of her greatest fears is that I "steal" our daughter and move back to the U.S. with her. She read some stuff online and it freaked her out. It said it would be very easy for me to "steal" our child and she could never do anything about it. At one point she refused to go to our child's U.S. citizenship application at the U.S. Embassy here in Germany due to this fear. I truly believe (but don't know for sure) this is one big reason she kicked me out.  She changed the locks and she has never done this before. She also took my name off the Kindergarten pickup list.

Yes, it does sound like it will trigger her fears. But look at it, what choices do you have? I only see two here.

• Try not to trigger her fears... .by not pushing, not doing anything legal, and letting her take your daughter away from you completely.
• Assert your legal rights, and let her get really upset at you, but get to see your daughter.

Actually there is choice 3: Do nothing, wait hoping she will "come around". Which looks a lot like the first choice. And your lawyer tells you that this will hurt you badly from a legal perspective.

Reality... .she's terrified. She feels backed into a corner. She isn't going to willingly back down and let this one go by the easy way. She can't. I see almost zero chance she will back down and give you any rights to see your daughter without legal means forcing her to do so. You also have to believe that she's not going to let you move back in, and go back to being a couple (and family), letting you have full access to your daughter. She did tell you this, multiple times, and even took actions (changing locks) to back it up.

Never mind the hypocrisy, and that she's doing to you exactly what she's terrified of! She doesn't get it, and pointing it out will just make a very bad situation even worse!

Never mind that you aren't trying to do what she fears and wouldn't do it. Again, she doesn't get it, and you can't tell her in a way she will believe that will make it easier.

[formflier]

She doesn't get it, and pointing it out will just make a very bad situation even worse!
 

The absolutely maddening part about these types of relationships... .

[codependable]

Go back to the choking situation.  What if you had patted her on the back... .asked if you could help her?  

I patted her child on the back, but didn't ask if I could help.

Just understand that paranoia is a big part of it.  

Can you make yourself a "rule" or "personal boundary" around the idea that your wife has issues about being wrong?  She doesn't realize she has this issue.  

Not sure how I would do this.

If you ever want to change something with your daughter propose it as "something you want to try".  Stay far away from "my way might be better".  When she presses you about why you want to try it... .stay friendly... .shrug... ."intuition I guess... I would feel better if we could try it" (likely she can identify with this type of statement.)

Good suggestion.

How powerful is invalidation?  How does that relate to paranoia?  

I'm getting the idea that invalidation is very important - and comes in mnay forms. I don't really know how it relates to paranoia, however. Maybe when she has paranoid thoughts, I shouldn't try to defend myself or explain things, as this might be invalidating to her paranoid thoughts?

Back when I was "reassuring" my wife of my love for her... .and when I was "proving myself innocent"

I know now NOT to reassure her of my love for her. She won't believe it and it invalidates her feelings of not being loved. Odd, but I accept that.

So when I say, "Hey, sweetheart, I told you I would be home for Christmas. The fact that I'm her proves I was telling the truth. I'm here", I guess that's invalidating to her.

This is SO wacky.

What do I do then?  How do I ever get across to her that her perception was wrong?  That I never "left her", but instead thought about her constantly when I was out of town, missed her and my daughter like crazy and couldn't wait to get back to her?  That is the reality.

From what you're telling me, there is no way I could ever tell her that because it would invalidate her erroneous belief that I left her.

So do I just keep my mouth shut? And not address it?

(I can't believe reassuring her of my love for her would be invalidating. I trust you when you say that, but to me I would never have thought that at all.)

So her mindset is: my BF left me, he left my daughter and made me a single Mom.

I guess there is no way to prove otherwise or get across to her that isn't true. This doesn't bode well for the relationship because if I can't tell her the truth, I'm afraid she will continue thinking this and "painting me black" and leave me for good.

Can you understand now why I advise you not to "assure" a paranoid or BPDish person that you love them and will be there... .when they believe otherwise?

Oh my gosh, yes.

But how DO I get this across to her in our situation?  This is the #1 reason she broke up with me: that I left her, wasn't there for her AND never will be.

Do I just ignore that topic and those erroneous beliefs will fade away and lose power on their own when she sees my actions? (Helping her with my daughter, helping her, spending time with my daughter, etc)

Once I understood invalidation, especially on a big scale (like the kid thing), I was able to stop it.  Most of the whopper theories (there are plenty more stories I could tell), went away.

So if I just "leave it alone", and stop invalidating and reassuring, do you think things will get better?

I hope so. I DO notice that things "feel" better between the two of us when I keep my mouth shut and just "do" the relationship and not talk about the relationship.

I think - maybe - we can rebuild by me not talking about the relationship at all. She is open to spending time with me, we ate breakfast together, I took her to dinner, I took her to the airport, etc. She didn't say, "I don't want to see you". Or "leave me alone".

And, of course, during dinner she was throwing all the "I don't love you", "we're done", "I'll never be able to count on you" stuff at me when we started to talk about the relationship.

Maybe the solution to get us back together really is to just "do" the relationship for now. Without defining it, brining up where we're at or our status as a couple, etc. Just leave that topic completely alone.

It seems like trying to define the r/s also makes her dig her heels in: "I made my final decision" and pushes her away from me.

Your number 1 goal (for the short term) should be to understand invalidation, so you can get rid of it.

Agreed.

[codependable]

I agree that you should be ready to validate your exGF that the r/s is over.

"Be ready" is key.

Make sure you don't bring it up.  It will only cause trouble.

If she brings it up, stay friendly and warm... ."I understand our r/s is about our daughter".

This is such an excellent response. It puts our daughter first, takes the pressure off her to "push me out" (because it's now about our daughter), and validates her feeling that our r/s is over.

What are some other ways to keep it short... .?

Not sure.

I'm hesitant to recommend he agrees or says "our r/s is over... "

I'm hesitant, too. I really don't want to lock in that belief and reach a point of no return (if I can help it). In the past, I've told her "B.S. - our story isn't finished. I will never let you go", etc. (invalidating, I know). It worked, however.  This time I feel she is really digging her heels in (especially with the triangulated counselor).

I want to validate her feelings, but I don't want to agree with them and lock them in harder.

[codependable]

Yes, it does sound like it will trigger her fears. But look at it, what choices do you have? I only see two here.

• Try not to trigger her fears... .by not pushing, not doing anything legal, and letting her take your daughter away from you completely.
• Assert your legal rights, and let her get really upset at you, but get to see your daughter.

Actually there is choice 3: Do nothing, wait hoping she will "come around". Which looks a lot like the first choice. And your lawyer tells you that this will hurt you badly from a legal perspective.

Reality... .she's terrified. She feels backed into a corner. She isn't going to willingly back down and let this one go by the easy way. She can't. I see almost zero chance she will back down and give you any rights to see your daughter without legal means forcing her to do so.

Actually, most of her actions have been the opposite: the two days before she left for Egypt I came over and visited my daughter at her place and spent most of the day. She left me there with her to run errands, we ate together (the three of us) and acted just like before. Except for me not having a key and living there.

She did say at the airport, "Can you meet here and pick us up when we get home?"

I said, "Of course"

She then said, "It would be great if you could bring the stroller with you"

I said, "Sure, give me the key and I will". (The key to the main door of the apartment, NOT her apartment. The stroller is in the lobby).

She said, "No way".

She is SO threatened by me having a key.

You also have to believe that she's not going to let you move back in, and go back to being a couple (and family), letting you have full access to your daughter. She did tell you this, multiple times, and even took actions (changing locks) to back it up.

That is true, she did back that up - for the first time ever.

But again, her actions are so totally different from what she is saying (except for the key issue). We spend time together, we ate breakfast and dinner together, went to the airport together, allowed me to put my arm around her as we walked together in the airport (maybe she didn't want it as another posted pointed out, but knowing my exGF, I believe she would have pushed my arm off very aggressively if she didn't want it). We acted exactly like a family. Just like before, with the exception of the locks. It's weird.

I remember what another poster said before I went to Germany: "She DESPERATELY wants a relationship with you. DESPERATELY".

I think she is just so hurt and felt so abandoned and unsupported when I "went to LA to play in the sun" (her words) that she is pushing me away to guarantee she is never hurt again like that. She doesn't want to trust that I will stick around and get hurt again. I feel it is a self-protective response.

This does NOT mean that she wants a relationship. It just means I believe she is pushing me away to avoid pain. She is scared to death.

[formflier]

For now... ."just don't address it"... ."don't reassure her"... .

Until you get a better handle on best ways to do those things... .and wisdom about when to leave it alone.



As far as her being "wrong".  Make it a mental game.  Put "bubble wrap" around her "tender spot" about being wrong.  If you aren't sure if it is ok to approach... .hush... .or ask.

Right now the goal is to keep things cool.


Regarding asking for a key. 

"Can you bring me the stroller?"

you "Sure... .how do you see that happening?"

Anytime you think it is time to solve something for her... .DON'T.

Put it back in her lap.

FF

[Notwendy]

Anytime you think it is time to solve something for her... .DON'T.

Put it back in her lap.

Yes- for those of us who tend to be fixers for dilemmas ( rescuers), this is great advice.

Sometimes they come up with even better ideas than we would. This may be humbling, but it is also empowering to them. When we solve a problem for someone else- we take that away from them. It can feel like we are one upping them.

One motivation for stepping back on this behavior is that co-dependent behaviors feel smothering to the other person- and can actually push them away.

Another way to say it would be to state the dilemma and post the question to her to solve.

She then said, "It would be great if you could bring the stroller with you"

I say " Yes, that would be great and I would like to do that, but I don't know how to get into the building when you are gone. How should I get the stroller?"

This also puts the responsibility of getting the stroller to you on her. She can then decide to give you a key, give one to the neighbor, have a landlord let you in, etc- but it is her choice.

[codependable]

For now... ."just don't address it"... ."don't reassure her"... .

Until you get a better handle on best ways to do those things... .and wisdom about when to leave it alone.

I will step back and chill out on things. I do need to keep learning - I can't believe how badly I have been dealing with her over the past years.

As far as her being "wrong".  Make it a mental game.  Put "bubble wrap" around her "tender spot" about being wrong.  If you aren't sure if it is ok to approach... .hush... .or ask.

In other words, make it a game for me - so I can deal with the paranoid or crazy thinking and behavior from her?

Also, asking is powerful. I can't believe I haven't done that before. I think she will respond very favorably to this. It gives her more "control", which she craves.

Right now the goal is to keep things cool.

Right.

Regarding asking for a key. 

"Can you bring me the stroller?"

you "Sure... .how do you see that happening?"

Great. Open-ended, throws it back to her. Awesome.

[codependable]

One motivation for stepping back on this behavior is that co-dependent behaviors feel smothering to the other person- and can actually push them away.

I think this is true for us.

She then said, "It would be great if you could bring the stroller with you"

I say " Yes, that would be great and I would like to do that, but I don't know how to get into the building when you are gone. How should I get the stroller?"

This also puts the responsibility of getting the stroller to you on her. She can then decide to give you a key, give one to the neighbor, have a landlord let you in, etc- but it is her choice.

Makes perfect sense.

It feels a bit passive, disempowering to my "fixer" / "I take initiative" / "I'm the leader" / "I'll just do it" mindset, but I'm sure this would work great with her.

Mainly because SO much of what she does is about controlling her environment and the people around her.

[Notwendy]

Autonomy is part of the human condition. If you haven't seen this in your daughter already, it starts about the time they learn to say "no". They don't have much control at this age, but they will grab at it and we can give them some. They don't get anything they want for lunch- they would pick candy, but we can let them choose between a cheese or turkey sandwich and let them choose between a blue or pink shirt. It's important to give them age appropriate choices as they mature. Eventually, they may not be our choices- teens may color their hair purple, but so long as the basics- school attendance, no drugs or alcohol are there- they need some freedom to choose.

As with relationships. We have boundaries, but within those boundaries there has to be space for individual choices. A boundary might be no cheating, stick within the budget, but if we control too many choices or decisions the relationship feels stifling. Adults may not do things our way, but they are free to choose to do them.

This scenario with your ex GF may be about autonomy. She's made a grab for her place, her vacation, her key. Yet, she is also aware of the importance of co-parenting with you. You two do have some kind of relationship- at least as co-parents. This is good. Keep your boundaries with regards to the care of your daughter, and your limits of what you will tolerate in a relationship- ie if she sees someone else- which she is free to do- would you still want her back. At what point do you decide to keep hoping or move on. You may not know all of this yet, but knowing your values is all you have control over.

[codependable]

This scenario with your ex GF may be about autonomy. She's made a grab for her place, her vacation, her key.

... .and our daughter!

Yet, she is also aware of the importance of co-parenting with you. You two do have some kind of relationship- at least as co-parents. This is good. Keep your boundaries with regards to the care of your daughter, and your limits of what you will tolerate in a relationship- ie if she sees someone else- which she is free to do- would you still want her back.

No, it would be over 100% for me if she were to see someone else.  It's bad enough what she has already done: kicked me out while I was on a trip, changed the locks, barred me from seeing my daughter, triangulated me with her "counselor", took my daughter on holiday to a Middle East country against my wishes, etc.

I think I've been very patient, open and understanding of her needs and feelings in the hopes of trying to save our family.

Incidentally, I asked her if she IS seeing someone else and she said, "No, this is just about us". And later: "I want to try to get through this first before I even think about that". And "it's the last thing I need now".

This gives me a bit of hope that we may still be able to save our family. She knows (I've told her in the past) that if she hooks up with someone else it's over forever. There would be no way I would ever take her back. Which would be an easy way to kill the relationship for her. All she'd have to do is say, "I'm seeing someone else" and it would be done forever.

This is another reason I think there may be a glimmer of hope still. She hasn't said that and has gone out of her way to let me know she isn't seeing someone else and isn't interested in seeing somebody else.
[/quote]

At what point do you decide to keep hoping or move on.

I really don't know. I've never experienced this type of thing before.

As an objective outsider, do you think I should give up hope and move on?

[Notwendy]

Codependable- I can't tell you when to give up or not. The answer to that is in your journey through this relationship and that decision.

Our best way to help you as fellow posters is to share our story and the lessons we have learned along the way. But your journey is to take this information- process it- use what you believe works, discard what doesn't.

Eventually something is likely to happen but when, how, is unknown. She may cross a boundary that is a deal breaker, she may decide she wants you, she may decide to be single with nobody, and you may also make choices- get tired of waiting, maybe meet someone else yourself. The future of this is unknown. Tough for those of us who want a clear path, clear picture, controlled situation. But all we can do is know ourselves and our choices/decisions and accept that what the other person feels or does is beyond prediction or control.

The benefit is in the journey- self growth, understanding, personal changes. It may not be comfortable, may be a real struggle at times, but all of that promotes emotional growth. Telling you what we think you should so would inhibit that. Also none of us are in the exact same situation with regards to any relationship.

[codependable]

Codependable- I can't tell you when to give up or not. The answer to that is in your journey through this relationship and that decision.

I totally get that. And I know the various options from this point forward.

I guess I should have phrased it differently:

I wonder if you (as well as other posters are sitting here thinking,

A.) "Come on man. Smell the coffee. It's done. Can't you see that? Look what she did and said, lose the denial. Move on and rebuild your life".

... .OR... .

B.) "You bring up some good points. She is spending time with you, isn't going no contact with you, allowed you back into her place (even while she was away), ate breakfast and dinner with you, wants to have some sort of relationship with you at this point. See how things go, see if you can get into counseling and rebuild some trust and see what happens"

Which one do you lean towards?

[Notwendy]

My gut feeling from what you've told me is that she's not done with this. I think she's ambivalent - and that's seen in her actions. She may also be testing the situation- how much will you tolerate- and she knows the limits.

As in all these relationships- to me- the best chance to repair is through looking at our contribution to the issues. If you are being codependent - you can work on that. Eventually the relationship depends on choice. One person can end it. For now - respect her boundaries. Hard to say how it will go.

[codependable]

My gut feeling from what you've told me is that she's not done with this. I think she's ambivalent - and that's seen in her actions. She may also be testing the situation- how much will you tolerate- and she knows the limits.

I tend to agree. But we'll see. I guess my major fear is a rebound relationship on her part. Like I said, that would kill it for me.

If you are being codependent - you can work on that.

I think I have been pretty co-dependent the last year or so. Basically, I put aside my life to help my girlfriend and be a full-time Dad to my daughter. My girlfriend got Eltengeld ("parent money" from the government (all new Moms do here - and it's a lot) and could stay at home for 14 months after the birth.

I basically joined her.

I own a business that brings money in without much work on my part, so the finances were covered.

Looking back, I think my biggest mistake was making both my girlfriend and my daughter the center of my life.

Which is why it's so unbelievable when she says, "You don't support me at all!". I've never seen a more committed partner and father.

However, I did still moved my business forward and visited my other children in California. I didn't budge on these two things. But the rest of the time, I basically did everything with my girlfriend and baby: feeding the baby, reading stories to her for nap time, pushing her around town in her stroller, running errands, buying groceries, taking her to the doctor, you name it. The three of us were inseparable all day long every day. (I'm sure that was a problem, too, but my girlfriend really liked that).

I didn't have much quality time with my older two daughters when they were this age because I was focused on building a business. I think I was overcompensating with this new daughter. I even knew I was doing this at the time, but it was just so lovely to spend time with her, I couldn't tear myself away.

I know this isn't attractive or sexy for a woman. It's sort of feminine energy, so to speak. I should have been out there grinding away each day at my business. But I really wanted to put it aside for a year or so to devote time to my daughter and girlfriend.  I really enjoyed the time I spent with my daughter. We have (had?) a really close bond.

But now that's over.

In a way, it's actually good I have the space to do my own thing for a bit and rebuild my own interests, social circle, hobbies, grow my business more aggressively, get back in the gym, etc.

In other words, be more independent.

Eventually the relationship depends on choice. One person can end it. For now - respect her boundaries. Hard to say how it will go.

Got it. Thanks.

[formflier]

Codependable,

She's not done with you.  My guess is that each day her mind goes all over the place.

Please slow down and think about the mental anguish of someone that desperately wants closeness, but is terrified of it.  You know all too well what it has been like for you... .and you don't inhabit her body and mind.  My guess is it is exponentially worse for her, which leads her to find places to "lay blame".

Shifting gears:

Stop asking her about other guys.  Nothing good comes from that conversation.  I understand YOU think something good came from it, because she said she doesn't have time for that (paraphrase).

What actually happened was it stirred up "settled issues" in her head.  Likely nothing will come of it.  Don't go looking for trouble.  If you look hard enough... you will find it.

Do you have enough trouble on your plate right now... .or would you like more?


Back to my assessment.  She's not done with you. 

Perhaps if you chill for several months, she may be open to more. 

"Chilling" and not living your own life are very different things.  If in the course of living your own life you "stir her pot"... .let her solve that. 

We can help you gain wisdom to sort out the difference.

Lesson 1: 

(fictional example)

Letting her being upset that it's your day to care for your little girl and you have decline to change your plans is usually a wise thing.  Ultimately it will show her that you respect you... .perhaps she should as well.

Helping her get upset because after she has said you are done as a couple, and you are now inquiring about her love live with others... .rarely a wise choice.

Hope this helps.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it is great that you were an involved father, but I also think the constant togetherness may have been too much for your GF. It's not the feminine aspect but the enmeshment that could feel icky. My H was gone working long hours while I did the baby care. That didn't help the relationship either- I would have liked a hand - but also my space. I think balance is the key.

I also don't think it was good for you to make this your whole life. I wonder how your daughters feel?

Since your GF is needing some space, this is a good time to regain the aspects of your former life- your business contacts, your daughters. This is a good thing to do whether or not the two of you stay together.

I don't know how old your other daughters are, but time with Dad is special no matter how old they are. I hope the relationship is good, but if it is not, there is time to repair that. It will bring you much pleasure over the years to have a good relationship with them, and who knows, you may even be a grandpa one day.

I really get the "you don't support me" statement from your wife. If there ever was a more supportive, giving, caring husband on the planet, it was my father. Yet, to hear BPD mother speak about him, you'd think it was a different person she was married to. But looking at this from her perspective-she isn't negating what he did for her. She does appreciate it. Yet, she didn't feel validated or empowered when he did everything for her. It made her feel as if she was incapable. It's a fine line between doing loving things and being co-dependent. I hope that you will find this fine line.

[codependable]

Codependable,

She's not done with you.  My guess is that each day her mind goes all over the place.

Please slow down and think about the mental anguish of someone that desperately wants closeness, but is terrified of it.  You know all too well what it has been like for you... .and you don't inhabit her body and mind.  My guess is it is exponentially worse for her, which leads her to find places to "lay blame".

Interesting point. Keep in mind she told me that I left her.

Stop asking her about other guys.  Nothing good comes from that conversation.

What actually happened was it stirred up "settled issues" in her head.  Likely nothing will come of it.  Don't go looking for trouble.  If you look hard enough... you will find it.

Okay, I won't touch that again.

Back to my assessment.  She's not done with you. 

Perhaps if you chill for several months, she may be open to more. 

We'll see.

"Chilling" and not living your own life are very different things.  If in the course of living your own life you "stir her pot"... .let her solve that. 

Not sure I understand this.

Letting her being upset that it's your day to care for your little girl and you have decline to change your plans is usually a wise thing.  Ultimately it will show her that you respect you... .perhaps she should as well.

In other words, don't cowtow to her demands all the time. Sounds like a healthy boundary. If she gets upset with that, it's okay.

Helping her get upset because after she has said you are done as a couple, and you are now inquiring about her love live with others... .rarely a wise choice.

Yes, I can see that. I think it also shows I care - and that would probably be invalidating to her.

[codependable]

I think it is great that you were an involved father, but I also think the constant togetherness may have been too much for your GF.

I can see that. But it's odd: she is the one who constantly reeled me in with things to do and set the schedule for us each day.

I also don't think it was good for you to make this your whole life. I wonder how your daughters feel?

Well, I spent time with them recently in California from early October to a few days ago. Was supposed to be a three week trip, but of course I was kicked out and had to stay in California for a while. Same thing happened a few months before that and my GF let me back in. So, yes my older daughters got to spend quite a bit of time with me inadvertently because when I went to visit for a few weeks for their birthdays I couldn't come home.

Since your GF is needing some space, this is a good time to regain the aspects of your former life- your business contacts, your daughters. This is a good thing to do whether or not the two of you stay together.

I totally agree.

I don't know how old your other daughters are, but time with Dad is special no matter how old they are. I hope the relationship is good.

Our relationship is excellent. We talk / text every day. We're very close. They are 15 and 17. I plan to have them come to Germany for the summer this year.

I really get the "you don't support me" statement from your wife. If there ever was a more supportive, giving, caring husband on the planet, it was my father. Yet, to hear BPD mother speak about him, you'd think it was a different person she was married to. But looking at this from her perspective-she isn't negating what he did for her. She does appreciate it.

My GF negated, minimized and devalued just about everything I did / do. It's never good enough, it's never enough. At least when I'm in California. When I'm with my GF, she says that I'm the "most amazing Dad she has ever seen" and "I've never seen a better father than you".

But the minute I leave to visit my older daughters, I'm literally the devil because: "You left me to take care of your baby while you're out in LA partying and playing in the sun. You just want to be there because it's a little warmer than in Germany. And now I have to do it all. You're not a supportive guy I can count in and you never will be".

(Sigh). She is so incredibly insecure and insanely jealous of the great relationship I have with my older daughters it kills her. Both of my older daughters are total winners, too. Both are straight A students, martial artists, do volunteer work in the community, in the National Honor Society and will probably both get accepted to Ivy League schools (if that's where they choose to go). My GF's older daughter, on the other hand, hasn't spoken to my GF for two years, has gotten into trouble since starting high school, did drugs, got kicked out of her father's house, ended up in a home for troubled youths and made a legal process to kick my GF out of her life and remove all parental rights from my GF. Which she did.

So anytime I go visit my daughters, it triggers my GF and is a stark reminder of the "terrible job" she did parenting her own daughter.  This, I believe, underlies her terrible reactions when I visit them on their birthdays.

Yet, she didn't feel validated or empowered when he did everything for her. It made her feel as if she was incapable. It's a fine line between doing loving things and being co-dependent. I hope that you will find this fine line.

This is really interesting. I'm not sure that applies to our situation completely. Maybe it does and I just can't see it. It really seems like it is more of a power and control thing for my GF.

When I'm there, things are generally good (except for her name-calling, picking fights and provoking me from time-to-time). The day before I left this last time to California, she was wearing my engagement ring, we were talking about our future together, we were making plans to go to the States to visit my family in Chicago for Thanksgiving and we were doing well (comparatively).

But the minute I flew to California as we BOTH agreed I would do, I was painted black for "going to see those little b___es who laugh at you for running after them" (yes, her real words) and then, of course, a few weeks in I was shut out.

The hate, rage and envy she projects towards them is unreal. My older daughters, of course, have no idea she acts this way. I would never tell them. She met them briefly in Germany before we were a couple. Then after my GF and I were a dating for a month, she pushed HARD for me to tell my older daughters about our relationship. I thought it was WAY too early, as my girls were dealing with my divorce from their Mom (it was very amicable and we still have a good relationship to this day).

My GF said I was "hiding her" and projected massive amounts of hate onto my unsuspecting daughters. From then on, she said "I don't care about them, I don't want to get to know them", etc.

So it has been this power struggle between my Gf and my daughters from almost day one. Expect that my daughters don't even know about this game - they're not really in it - they just want to see their Dad on their birthdays.

My GF is the one playing this sick game with my daughters. And any time I go to visit my daugters, she takes it as my daughters "won" somehow. But this game is literally all in HER head. My GF will say things to me like, "They know what they're doing to me" and "females have a communication that men don't even know is happening. You'll never see it. You just think they're these perfect little princesses. I know what they're doing - and they know exactly what they're doing - those little b___es".

Honestly, they aren't doing anything except being happy to spend time with me. They never even talk about my GF. They just want to spend time with me, that's all.

It's just crazy.

[formflier]

Talk to us about your daughters... .

Don't talk to your pwBPD about them.  At least for now.  Don't bring up plans for the summer trip.

If it ever seems appropriate to bring it up... .discuss those circumstances here.

Big picture:  There is going to be a lot of stuff she says... .and we ask you to do... .that isn't going to make sense.  Please roll with it for now... .hang in there.

FF

[formflier]

You mentioned not understanding my point about upsetting her by living your life... .

I think you got the point later on.

Just to make sure. 

Upsetting her by you asking lots of "feelings questions"... .by "reassuring her"... .by trying to "reach her"... .etc etc... .NOT GOOD.

Having healthy boundaries... living your life.  VERY GOOD.  Even is she doesn't agree.

FF

[codependable]

Upsetting her by you asking lots of "feelings questions"... .by "reassuring her"... .by trying to "reach her"... .etc etc... .NOT GOOD.

Having healthy boundaries... living your life.  VERY GOOD.  Even is she doesn't agree.

Great. Got it.

I won't discuss my daughters with her. I don't anyway, normally. It is the one topic that causes the most strife between us, so I've learned instinctively not to bring them up.

[Notwendy]

I think it is important to understand that their unhappiness comes from something inside of them. The pain belongs to them, yet they tend to look at external things to either take it away or to blame for the cause. Trying to do things to make them happy isn't usually effective- or at best is a temporary appeasement for the pain they describe- because it is intrinsic to BPD.

Before you decide " well why bother then"- it helps to center yourself as to your reasons for doing kind things for someone you love. Sure, the response- seeing them happy is a nice one, but you don't do it for the response- you do it because it comes from a place of love and kindness from you. It is a result of your values and ethics. You also treat yourself from this place- which is the source of boundaries- such as not accepting being treated poorly, and your deal breakers such as not being in a relationship with cheating. You have boundaries because you are kind to you.

Loving someone means also doing what is in their best interest, which may also be "tough love". It isn't in someone's best interest to enable or caretake their feelings. So ,if they are upset, our job is to manage our own feelings while allowing them to manage their. Actually being too concerned with keeping someone happy may be a selfish motive on our part if it eases our discomfort with their moods.

The father-daughter relationship is one of the factors that sets the stage for their romantic relationships. We tend to play out our FOO issues in our future relationships. I was also part of this drama triangle between me, my BPD mother, and my father like you described with yours- and I am even her biological child. The Karpman triangle helped me to understand these dynamics well. It doesn't make logical sense- a wife being irate at the father's attention to the daughter, but feelings don't have to make sense. I can imagine it may even be more intense since your GF/exGF isn't their biological parent.

So, I sought out significant others who had both his best traits, as well as his being emotionally unavailable to me, since he was mostly focused on BPD mom and her feelings about what he did.  My father had some amazing strong points for which I am grateful for, but how my mother felt in the moment seemed to determine his relationship with me.

Like your girls, we kids were the high achieving, strong independent types. But regardless, I got the message- "you will have to accept an emotionally unavailable person- you don't deserve better". The point being- you can't make sure they will have no relationship issues- that isn't possible,  but do not underestimate your time with them, or your relationship with them, even if they seem to be doing well academically. 

What I would encourage you to do is get really centered on your priorities and the things that are important to you. These are things you do not waver on during the tides of emotions. When things are important to you, it is also important to keep a boundary around them. Your list could look like this: your business- you must put time into this to support yourself and your family. Your physical and mental health - you must take steps to self care. Your relationship with your two older daughters ( doesn't depend on whether she likes it or not). Your relationship with your young daughter ( again, getting legal access to her regardless of the relationship). Your relationship with this child's mother. ( important to you but may be in flux). It will take some balance but establishing how you will do this and sticking to it regardless of the tide of emotions will help you hang on to who you are.

[once removed]

This thread has reached its post limit and has been locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in another thread.