setting boundaries

[blueeyes567]

I am at the point where I know boundaries need to be set. I am nervous and scared how to start the conversation with my dBPDw. I know she has to feel like she is in control of the conversation so how do I start it. All I am thinking about asking what she wants from therapy and what she wants in life and seeing where it goes. The only boundaries I can think of I would like is to know when she has the sexual urges for someone else so we can stop them. The other would be the fact that I can't stand her lying to me. And the last being that I would like to be able to walk away when she rages and blames me for everything. And by walk away I mean just for a few moments so we can both compose our selves to be able to speak more rationally about the situation we are arguing about. I don't know how to get across these boundaries and how to word them without it seeming like an ultimatum or I'm controlling

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[1989]

I think you have to be ready to make changes.  Ready to follow through.  And you need to be calm. I had to do this with my husband (who is not BPD but was verbally abusive for years).  I said, "I will not stay in the same room with you if you start yelling (raging, cursing, etc.) and then I leave the room.  I only had to do it a few times. I just say "I'm leaving the room because you're yelling."

"We" cannot stop her sexual urges for someone else, but I know she can.  Is it possible for you to say to her "I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but I do not want to be in a marriage where my wife has sexual feelings for another man.  I understand feelings are feelings, but I also know when I am attracted to someone that the attraction will grow if I feed it with fantasies and spending time with that person; so out of respect for you and myself I choose not to feed the attraction.  I expect the same from my wife."  That's not a request, that is a boundary.  She still has free will, a choice to make.  You aren't telling her she can't have sexual fantasies of other men, you are telling her you will not be in a marriage where she is having sexual fantasies of other men.  

(She may indeed have urges for other men, but she can stop those urges from growing and turning into something that seems "inevitable."  She does have control.)

I do think delivery and assurances of love are very important before and after you deliver a message like this to a pwBPD.

[blueeyes567]

I think the hardest part will be making it seem like it's her idea. I can hold her accountable for the things because I have issues with her sleeping around and lying. I also would like to set a boundary for when she is yelling at me and anger just as you did where I think we should both or I should at least walk away when she is in rage.

[MissyM]

All I am thinking about asking what she wants from therapy and what she wants in life and seeing where it goes.

Be prepared that her answer to this will change, depending on her emotional state.  Sometimes she will be all in and sometimes she will be done getting better.

The only boundaries I can think of I would like is to know when she has the sexual urges for someone else so we can stop them.

I would highly suggest that you not put yourself up as her accountability partner. This would not be a healthy dynamic for either of you.  She needs to have a therapist for this or go to a sex addiction meeting and get a sponsor. 

The other would be the fact that I can't stand her lying to me.

Absolutely reasonable, she is probably not capable of that yet.  What are you going to do if she lies?  That is where the boundary lies.  For my dBPDh, his therapist had to put lying as a bottom line behavior (meaning he is slipping in his recover if he lies) and he still has small slips.

And the last being that I would like to be able to walk away when she rages and blames me for everything. And by walk away I mean just for a few moments so we can both compose our selves to be able to speak more rationally about the situation we are arguing about.

Great!  You can do this without laying it out to her as a boundary.  Just do it.

I don't know how to get across these boundaries and how to word them without it seeming like an ultimatum or I'm controlling

 

Because of BPD's extreme reaction to being controlled, she will probably see it as controlling.  Nothing you can do about how she takes it.  Just hold steady to your boundaries and be ready for extinction bursts.

[Grey Kitty]

MissyM explained it well, but I'm going to say a bit more anyhow:

Setting boundaries is a HUGE step in fixing an abusive relationship.

Before you do it, let me explain the difference between making rules and enforcing boundaries:

Rule: Don't rage and blames me for everything.

You set this rule by telling her about the rule.

If YOU set this rule, she has a choice: Obey this rule, or break this rule.

You don't have any power in this situation, she has all the power.

Conclusion: Sucks to be you!

Enforcing Boundary: If you rage at me or blame me for everything, I will leave the conversation.

You enforce this boundary with your actions. You choose to do it... .or not do it.

She can continue raging... .but if you leave, she has to do it to the wall or somebody else!

You have all the power, she has no way to force you to listen*

Conclusion: Sucks to be her.

* She may try to physically prevent you from leaving. THIS IS DOMESTIC ABUSE. Calling 911 to stop this is an appropriate response. (If you have experienced this before, or expect it of her, we can help you work out practical strategies to keep you (relatively) safe in this sort of situation.

I highly recommend you work first on these sort of boundaries before you tackle harder things.

The other issues you mention, lying, cheating, and sharing or hiding sexual urges toward others are harder to change with boundary enforcement; the main enforcement action you have is to end your r/s with her, and that is a hard choice to make.

We have a couple really useful workshops in the lessons here for you:

These two are great ones with more on how to enforce boundaries:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

This one is a very useful for getting some space to think:

How to take a time out

[Raybo48]

I don't want to rain on the parade here, but reading this stuff about setting boundaries with a BPD makes my head shake.   If she is a BPD she has been used to lying her entire life, and that isn't going to suddenly change because you sit down and have a conversation about it.

 

Also, having emotional  affairs and physical affairs behind their partners back is completely natural to them because simply put; they cannot just get narcissistic supply from one person in their life and they almost always seek out other men to satisfy their needs.     Now not all BPD are exactly the same, but if you read countless articles, books like I have the blueprint is spelled out pretty much the same from all the experts.  My exBPD will never ever stop lying or having affairs... .it's in her DNA and her actions/words  almost never match nearly 100% of the time.  They will tell you one thing and turn around  and do the opposite nearly every time.  They just can't help  themselves.

[MissyM]

Now not all BPD are exactly the same, but if you read countless articles, books like I have the blueprint is spelled out pretty much the same from all the experts.  My exBPD will never ever stop lying or having affairs... .it's in her DNA and her actions/words  almost never match nearly 100% of the time.  They will tell you one thing and turn around  and do the opposite nearly every time.  They just can't help  themselves.

I am not sure what articles and experts you are referring to.  The many, many therapists that we have seen and have involved in our care say that change is possible.  It is a long and hard process with BPD but it does happen.  I have a couple of good female friends that are almost fully recovered BPDs.  It took years of therapy and 12 step for them to get there.  Now, if a BPD doesn't want to change and just wants to wallow in their mental illness because "they can't change", then no there won't be any change.

[Raybo48]

Yea, if they actually go to therapy, but most never will because they don't see they have a problem. 

I never said long term therapy doesn't work in my post nor did any of the articles I read, but you cannot set boundaries with a BPD who sees no one and blasts through life with no regard for others.   That's a fantasy if anyone thinks they can reason with an unchecked BPD individual.

[MissyM]

Yea, if they actually go to therapy, but most never will because they don't see they have a problem.

  BPDs are the most likely of personality disorders to end up in therapy.  If you read the other posts from this  member, you will see that his BPDw is in therapy.  I am sorry, you are obviously struggling.  I don't happen to be one that will stay with my dBPDh, if he isn't in recovery and therapy.  That is my own boundary.  My dBPDh is aware this is my boundary and he wants to get better and wants to keep our family together.  Some others on this board are willing to stay and have had some success.  I wish them the best of luck.  It really isn't up to me to judge whatever choice they decide to make with their own lives.

[Raybo48]

No, I'm not struggling with facts from therapists I've spoken to and countless articles I've read  based on their recommendations.  They are definitely not the most likely to go into therapy.  We can agree to disagree on that one.

[blueeyes567]

my wife was actually pretty easy to convince to go to therapy. I think no and she has BPD in a way has helped because she thought she was just a slut. By the boundary of wanting to know when she has those sexual desires I will help her not act on them but not by putting my self in that position where she is using me for those desires. She isn't really a sex addict. She explains it as needing to feel something other than emptiness. She would bother feel the guilt and shame of what she did rather than feel numb

[Grey Kitty]

my wife was actually pretty easy to convince to go to therapy. I think no and she has BPD in a way has helped because she thought she was just a slut. By the boundary of wanting to know when she has those sexual desires I will help her not act on them but not by putting my self in that position where she is using me for those desires. She isn't really a sex addict. She explains it as needing to feel something other than emptiness. She would bother feel the guilt and shame of what she did rather than feel numb

It really doesn't matter how many people with BPD actually get therapy, or even whether your wife has BPD.

What matters is whether your wife is able to change her behavior or not, and also whether you can change your role in the patterns the two of you have.

I can personally say that when I started enforcing boundaries around raging / verbal abuse / circular arguments with her, in a form much like I described for you earlier, my life immediately improved. SIGNIFICANTLY.

And that left her with little choice but face some things she really needed to face. It was tough for her, but she (much later!) was thankful, because of what she had learned through the process.

[blueeyes567]

the initial attempt to talk about boundries put her in a sour defensive argumentative mood but I divert the conversation somewhere else and she did later start talking about it again. At that point because it was her idea we did get quite a bit farther and she said she will try to open up to me but is just scared. She said she doesn't want to hurt me and it's hard to talk to me because she thinks I will kick her out of the house. I think we made great progress yesterday but we will see how today goes. She did go out with a friend last night and came home drunk. She said she was fine to drive but we live on a wicked road,out of town so that made me nervous but not enough to pick a fight so hopefully she snaps out of this. in regards to the walking away when she is yelling and boundary she did say if you yell at me though I am done and we are over.

[MissyM]

She explains it as needing to feel something other than emptiness. She would bother feel the guilt and shame of what she did rather than feel numb.

That is exactly what a sex addict does, or any other kind of addict.  They are filling up that empty hole.  I am not saying she is an addict but it takes an expert in sex addiction to make that determination.  I understand being uncomfortable with the label of sex addict.  The term sexually compulsive is used, as well. 

the initial attempt to talk about boundries put her in a sour defensive argumentative mood but I divert the conversation somewhere else and she did later start talking about it again.

Initially, you may not need to tell her your boundaries but just start living by them.  Have you tried an alanon meeting?  It is free and really very helpful in dealing with addicted/compulsive partners. It helps us change ourselves and get healthier in our interactions.

It really doesn't matter how many people with BPD actually get therapy, or even whether your wife has BPD.

I don't agree with that statement at all.  A diagnosis helps change the therapeutic approach.  Boundaries around abuse do work.  Boundaries around addiction and compulsion, aren't enough to stop it.  I think it is dangerous to say that BPDs with addictions/compulsions don't need therapeutic help and just changing our behavior will change theirs to stop their addiction/compulsion.  That comes across as a very codependent statement, to me.  Since that behavior isn't about our interaction with them, they have to want to stop that behavior on their own.  Changing our behavior will make a change, it is  just not always the change that we want.  Sometimes it causes them to escalate their behavior and we decide to move on.  I think the lessons here are very helpful for BPD and some of it applies to addicts.

I know that this board promotes that changing ourselves can change the BPD.  I believe that changing ourselves can change the interactions with a BPD but I have seen no research or scientific information to back up that changing our behavior, will change them.  So, at this point I am going with what the therapists and specialists involved are telling me.  All of the things we are doing in our lives are helping.  As I have said, I have 2 female friends that are pretty much recovered from BPD.  1 is actually fully recovered, the other is still working on it but has come so far.  Neither of them say that their partner was able to change them.  This is really my only complaint about this board.  The lack of encouragement to involve therapists that deal with BPD. 

[blueeyes567]

I agree with the therapy missy. her therapist are unbiased people who have been trained with what to say and when to say it. They don't tell the person that they need to change or express the love and concern that family members do. They help the person find what's within them to be able to change and walk them through those steps for them to change themselves. I do not think people could do this without therapy. Yes there may be a time of a somewhat break in the episodes or whatever people call them but they will always fall back to that routine of the compulsion and let them be bpD take over.

[LasVegasPunk89]

So i have been with my girlfriend for 1 year now things between us are as if she is a abandoned unloved victim of all this bull crap yet the way she is to me like i am hollow no feelings or anything but yet tell me she loves me i am loyal to her truly love her seen her at the worst

[Wanda]

 Remember boundaries are for you... not for them... it is what you won't accept... 17 years ago i to was afraid... my husband and i had a separation for a year during this time i found out about BPD. i ended up and still am in this marriage. he was horrible  back then . and one of my boundaries because therapy for life wasn't a question BPD therapy wasn't a question he was in denial. lucky for me he is now a recovered alcoholic of 30 years and will change. but i had to change meds and BPD therapy would do  him wonders but for me i couldn't enforce it . so i told him things  had to get better. and over 17 years slowly they did.HE went from raging all the  time to once a year to i can't remember last time... now just recently there was a rage with my daughter. she didn't handle it well for sure pushed his  buttons. but that was the first time in i can't remember when he was raging.

i set many also i knew for me riding with him if h e raged was a stop you know i set a boundary 17  years ago i would 't ride with him if he road raged because he did this a lot it took two times of not riding with him for two weeks each time he road r aged for him to stop.  It scared me to have him road raged. the boundary was for me   important you follow through with your boundary also. not give in due to they will know you will and just keep crossing that boundary,. my husband due to his anger is going to counseling now. that was a boundary now expecting him to take meds or go on meds isn't real. i know  he won't due to denial. but maybe finding ways to reduce anger will help. i wonder sometimes if this counselor will pick up on a personality disorder... HUmm  but i know if meds are mentioned my husband is out... .oh and my husband isn't in to other women. lucky for me.  he is a high functioning BPD but none the less BPD  nothing changes without change... .and lying oh yea! he lies but for him it isn't doing this on purpose he actually believes what he says to be true . all part of the BPD... .