Would you call your interactions with a BPD a "fight"?

[TRB]

I just saw this topic on another board and thought I would post it here as well.

For years I thought that my undiagnosed BPD spouse and I "fought" a lot because we had a lot of angry interactions with yelling -- on both sides, although very lopsided in her direction.  We went to couples counselors and said "we fight a lot and want to figure out how to stop fighting, or make our fights healthier." The counselors tried to help us work on our "conflict resolution" skills.  It all had very minimal positive effect.

Then I gradually realized that what we were doing was not "fighting," and that improving our conflict resolution skills was not going to improve anything, because we were not really engaging in conflicts with each other.

I think I have not been in a healthy intimate relationship before, and it was not until I read something like this as the definition of a healthy "fight" that I realized we were not "fighting": "Two people fight when they have differences of opinions or values and they disagree strongly with each other.  The fight is about their strong opinions/feelings and in the fight they express their opinions/feelings.  At some point each person attempts to understand the other person's perspective, and they try to reach some kind of understanding or compromise that takes into account both people's perspectives, even if the outcome is not ideal to either person."

Instead, what we were doing is that she would fly into a rage about a dish being on the wrong shelf (or pick any other example) and curse at me and call me names and tell me all of the ways in which I was a horrible, unloving person and why this meant our relationship had to end immediately.  Then I would treat this seriously as if it were a rational complaint about the dishes and try to talk to her about how we could work together to make sure the dishes stayed on the right shelves in the future.  Then she would become more enraged and so on.  I'm making a little light of this but you get the point.

There was not any real disagreement about anything, so this wasn't really a "fight."  It took me a long time to see this, and to understand why these interactions left me feeling so drained, confused, and hurt.  I thought we were fighting about something we disagreed about, and that we both sincerely wanted to use the situation as an opportunity to improve the situation, and I tried to work on mutual problem solving, like I would do with anyone else in my life, when that is not what she was doing at all.

Now after years of learning about BPD, about how to validate her feelings, not take the accusations personally, etc., I see that what is happening in this type of situation is not a "fight" between us, because it has nothing to do with a disagreement between us about our opinions or values or preferences. Although her words may sound like she is expressing an opinion or preference about something (e.g., "I can't stand the dishes being on the wrong shelf!", any effort by me to engage in a truly healthy "fight" by expressing my different opinion or preference (e.g., "I like the dishes where they are; let's see how we can come up with a solution for the dishes that works for both of us" and then hashing things out between us is doomed to fail, because she is on autopilot in pouring out her intolerable feelings, and not trying to engage in a healthy "fight" with me about anything.

I think that from what I have learned about BPD the subtext when she screams, "I hate it when the dish is on the wrong shelf!" isn't, "I'm inviting you to engage with me about how we can keep the dishes on the right shelf in a way that feels good to both of us," it's "I feel such all-consuming rage about the dish being on the wrong shelf that I cannot tolerate feeling this way and right now the only thing I can focus on is how intolerable this feels and I will do anything to make this feeling end.  I'm convinced this feeling will continue forever and that is intolerable to me.  I would love your help in making this feeling go away but unfortunately I have no idea how to help you to help me, or how to help myself."

So I made the mistake for many years of trying to improve my "conflict resolution skills" when in fact she was not trying to engage in a conflict with me, and my assumption that these interactions were "fights" that would benefit from good fighting skills was absolutely false and actually harmful, because the more I attempted to engage in conflict resolution the more I think she felt, "My partner is trying to argue with me about what to do with the dishes when what I need from him is to make this intolerable feeling of mine stop right now or I will die!"

We are still together and the explosive rages are still very difficult for me to experience, and I am continuing to improve my skill at dealing with them, but I feel like now I at least know that no matter how much screaming is involved, these are not "fights"!  So I don't try to engage in them as if there were true "fights," and I don't end up being disappointed that nothing is resolved when the flame burns out.  Why should I expect the "topic" of the fight (e.g., the dish being on the wrong shelf) to be resolved in any way by this kind of interaction when that is really not the topic and my partner has no desire to resolve it and no skills at working mutually to resolve it?  She isn't mentioning the dishes in order to engage in a healthy fight about where to keep the dishes.  At least I know that now; unfortunately I don't think she understands this about herself but I am trying in my own way to help her develop some self-understanding.  For example, I get the feeling that there is a part of her that DOES think her intolerable feeling about the dish is the result of me not keeping the dish in the right place and that she would not be feeling this way if I had just put the dish in the right place; so she is not understanding the source and nature of her own feelings, where they come from, and what to do to soothe them; instead she does the classic projection onto me.  At least I have gotten a lot better at not taking it personally.  I re-read one of the BPD books recently which reminded me, "Do not take anything the person with BPD says about you as being true about you."  I keep repeating this to myself and it is very helpful, although it is challenging because I am naturally a self-reflective person who is open to acknowledging my own flaws and who wants to continually improve myself.

Another thing that has helped me is that in recent years I have had some good, healthy fights with friends and family members.  Even though some of these have been very painful, with lots of anger and yelling on both sides, they are fundamentally different than the non-"fights" with my BPD partner.  I have experienced healthy, no-holds-barred fights with other people in my life where at some point we start listening to each other, acknowledge our differences, and work from our mutual desire to see each other's perspective and make some compromises in each other's direction.  Even in the beginning of these fights, when anger is high on both sides, I get the feeling that the other person is honestly expressing their opinion/preference/feeling and wants me to understand where they are coming from, and that they want us to reach agreement with each other.  Then, when this healthy kind of fight is over, either immediately, or pretty quickly after (maybe a few hours or the next day), we thank each other and acknowledge how the fight was helpful to resolving our conflict and bringing us closer together.  There is resolution, healing, and a deeper connection between me and the other person as a result of the fight.

None of that occurs with my BPD partner.  There is no resolution and no healing.  No agreement is reached and nothing moves forward.  So I know what a real fight is like as a basis of comparison.  And I know I am capable of engaging in a healthy fight with other people and that my interactions with my BPD partner are not the result of some defect in me as a person which makes me incapable of engaging in a healthy conflict, despite the fact that my BPD partner tells me this about myself repeatedly.  (Which leads me to repeat: "Do not take anything the person with BPD says about you as being true about you."

I feel like I lost a long time being under the illusion that we were "fighting," and feeling bad about myself that I was not able to improve how we fought, but I am working on being easy on myself and having gratitude for myself that I have at least broken through that illusion now.

Sorry for the long rant.  Has anyone else gone through similar stages?  Have similar or different perspectives on "fighting" with someone with BPD?

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[ortac77]

Hi
You put it very well. It has taken me a long time to understand this, not least because I maybe have my own issues around self confidence/self worth and therefore am a bit oversensitive to criticism (even if it is as ridiculous as to how i load the dishwasher).

Yes I agree repeat daily/hourly every minute if needs be "Its not about me".

Thanks for the reminder

[pearlsw]

Hi TRB,

I can't express to you how helpful it was for me to read this! I thank you so much for taking the time to share this insight with all of us here. I'm sorry for all you had to go through to be able to get to this point, but I appreciate you sharing it because I am sure it will help others.

Yes, I never feel like I am given any chance to resolve an issue. Lately, it's been a bit of arguing and I have to admit I've JADE-ed a bit. It almost seems like lately I have to completely take the reigns until he quiets down and listens. He is not so good at that... .He tends to panic, blow our lives up and not give me any chance to discuss anything... .so therefore nothing ever gets resolved or improves. It feels unfair because I would have really like to resolve issues and make improvements, but... .it may not be possible in my case.

You make a good point about being realistic about what you are facing - what it is, and what it isn't.

Do you two have any ability to resolve actual issues that you disagree about? Does she adjust/change on anything?

warmly, pearl.

[BasementDweller]

TRB -

Yes. Exactly this!

I lost nearly two years of my life in explosive "fights" that never resulted in anything other than cyclic, repetitive bickering over completely irrelevant issues that were of zero importance in the grand scheme of life. (And which I would never in a million years have imagined myself even THINKING about... .much less having a three day vitriolic raging extravaganza over.)

Examples:

Proper way to boil an egg.
Best flavor of cheese.
Which shelf in the bathroom the toothpaste should sit on.
How to load the dishwasher.
Best type of socks for winter.
 
You may recognize some of these. And no, it's never really about that. I had to learn the same techniques you did, and rethink everything I ever thought I knew about how to relate to another human being. And learn to respond in the most bizarre ways to the most bizarre fits, just to keep the peace. Once I mastered that, things improved.

Example of a disagreement we would have before I learned to address the BPD component:

He: (Already escalating frantically, in a state of extreme anxiety and wide-eyed near-psychosis.) "Why did you move the toothpaste from the bottom shelf to the middle one?"

Me: (Unphased) "I didn't realize I did. I didn't even think about it really."

He: (Seething with sarcasm.) You can't even remember where or why you placed the toothpaste? Do you have a memory problem? Where is the logic in moving the toothpaste to another shelf?" (Oh, the irony of being lectured about logic by a person with a raging emotional dysregulation problem.)

Me: (Mildly annoyed.) "I don't see the problem. Wait, what the hell are you on about?"

Him: "You hide things so I can't find them! There is a proper place for the toothpaste! You moved it!"

Me: (No longer interested in the topic.) "The proper place for the toothpaste is in the F**KING BATHROOM. It's still in the bathroom, therfore it's in the F**KING RIGHT PLACE. Get a grip." <-- Ok, not the ideal way to handle a pwBPD. 

Him: *Explosive rage of three days duration coupled with heavy drinking and an eventual police presence at the house, while I avoid him like the plague the whole time thinking "Man, what a psycho."*



New and improved disagreement:

He: (Already escalating frantically.) "Why did you move the toothpaste from the bottom shelf to the middle one?"

Me: (Soothing.) Does the toothpaste being on the middle shelf frustrate you? Thank you for letting me know. Would you prefer it stay in the same place every time?"

He: "Yes!"

Me: (Soothing.) "Alright, handsome."

Him: (Relieved and kind of flattered.) "Thanks! Do you want a glass of wine?"

Me: *Moves toothpaste all over the bathroom several times a day, even leaving it in the shower a few times... .just as an experiment. He doesn't give a ___ and uses it wherever it is. Hasn't mentioned it again. Experiment subsequently ended. I now often find the toothpaste moved all over the bathroom.*

I let it slide, though. 

[TRB]

Examples:

Proper way to boil an egg.
Best flavor of cheese.
Which shelf in the bathroom the toothpaste should sit on.
How to load the dishwasher.
Best type of socks for winter.
 
You may recognize some of these.

Ha!  Yes I can recognize them and I am at a point where I can find some humor in it.

I can also find some humor looking back at the therapists who took these kinds of things very seriously and thought they were an opportunity to find some deep meaning in them--like was the toothpaste something that triggered a painful childhood memory for her?  Or could her rage over the toothpaste be explained by it being the "last straw" after I had moved the toothpaste many times before (which I had not)?  Had I subconsciously been trying to gaslight her by moving the toothpaste without her knowledge?

What the therapists did not realize was that the specific "triggering" event was irrelevant, and they would get this if they were actually in my shoes for a week.  The content of the event was irrelevant.  As a result, trying to examine it could only lead to frustration or worse.

I'm not knocking the therapists entirely, since I'm sure their instincts apply to non-BPD people in relationships.  Also, I got the feeling that the therapists never quite believed me about the speed and explosiveness of the rage that could develop from the dish/toothpaste/towel/whatever, in part because they would never see it themselves in a therapy session.

I know that the "leaving the toilet seat up" kind of problem takes many forms in relationships and is often annoying to the person on the receiving end.  But as we on this board all know, there is a difference between annoyance, or even anger which may be justified if someone keeps leaving the toilet seat up for years despite the other partner wanting it down, and explosive rage combined with things like physical violence or ending the relationship, packing bags, storming out, and disappearing for days at a time, and then returning as if nothing had happened.  All because of the dish or toothpaste or other things we've mentioned.

I really appreciate your story about your experiment.  Just hearing it helps remind me I am not crazy!  Thank you.  I have not consciously done this kind of experiment intentionally myself, but I have noticed many times that something that completely enrages her one time has no effect other times, which reminds me not to take personally the thing that enraged her.  A few times I have pointed this out to her (like, ":)o you remember the last time X happened and it really bothered you?" and she has no memory of it.

In response to the question about whether things ever get resolved, in the last year or so I have had some success with this, but I can't say I have a great success rate!

(1) When she gets enraged about something that is worthwhile to address (like how to keep the dishes in a place that will not frustrate her in the future), I DON'T address it while she is enraged.  Instead I stay solely focused on doing whatever can be done to soothe her--I am still learning about this but have made some progress.  Usually the soothing does not involved talking about the dishes at all!

(2) Some time later--much later, like the next day or a few days later--casually mention a suggestion about how we could keep the dishes better.  I have found it helpful to keep this extremely casual, usually in the middle of a conversation about something else, and not push it if she is not responsive.

(3) Then she might mention the same topic again much later, like a few days or a week later, like, "I like your idea about the dishes.  I think it could be helpful."  Or she might mention it as if it were her idea, as if we had never talked about it--I do not argue this and I let her take the credit.   

After 20 years I consider something like the above to be a major victory!  At least it is much better than the alternative.

It feels very challenging and is very different than how I deal with these kinds of things with other family members and friends.

Anyone else have success stories for achieving progress or resolution after a "fight"/BPD rage?

[BasementDweller]

I think your method is a good one and I have kind of switched to that tactic myself. We are in EFT couples therapy, and while that doesn't always work for some pwBPD it is working well with us, and my bf enjoys the sessions and likes and trusts our counselor. He actually was able to pretty easily pinpoint that these arguments were about dysregulated communication and gave us a number of ways to stop and reverse that when it starts to happen.

Nowadays BPDbf panics less about things being not in the right place, and when he does get a bit weird about it, I handle it better so as to not escalate him. I think what has saved us is that these things are no big deal to me. I am pretty adaptable, so the placement of the toothpaste or the positioning of the dishes in the machine is far less important to me than it is to him, so I usually just go along with it. And like your partner, when he's not really irritated, he doesn't even remember some of these moments where he freaked out, or how upset he was.

One thing I have come to realize is that when a pwBPD is badly disregulated they often cannot remember things later. This is why when objects have been moved, he panics. He can't find things if the last time he saw them, he was in a dysregulated or dissociated state. So he gets embarrassed and frustrated, and begins to worry that he's losing his mind. I actually feel quite sad for him in those times, even if his yelling and overreactions are irritating. Fortunately, those events dropped off a couple of months ago, and even his memory is better because he's not been so flustered. BTW - I didn't do the experiment to be mean to him... .but more to test if it was REALLY possible he wasn't remembering these outbursts. It seems he wasn't - or he at least didn't feel triggered by them all the time. It was sporadic, and always linked to him being upset about something else, underlying.

You seem like you found a good way to reach your partner in a way that calms her and remedies a lot of the issues. It really is trial and error, huh?

[TRB]

I think your method is a good one and I have kind of switched to that tactic myself. We are in EFT couples therapy, and while that doesn't always work for some pwBPD it is working well with us, and my bf enjoys the sessions and likes and trusts our counselor. He actually was able to pretty easily pinpoint that these arguments were about dysregulated communication and gave us a number of ways to stop and reverse that when it starts to happen.

I am curious about the above.  You say your therapist was able to identify that these interactions are really about the disregulated behavior and not about the toothpaste.  Our therapist gets this as well, and after many years I get it as well, but my BPD partner still seems to feel, even after her emotions have calmed down, that there really was something wrong with where the toothpaste was, and that even if her reaction was a little exaggerated, the fundamental problem was really that I had moved the toothpaste.

I am probably exaggerating this to make a point, but I don't think she has come to a point of accepting that her disregulation and how she behaves when she is disregulated is a separate problem that needs to be addressed.  I think deep down she still feels the behavior is justified even if it is too extreme.

Any insights or pointers into how you and your partner got to where you are now?  The most important thing I am curious about is whether there is anything I can do to help nudge my partner in the right direction?  I realize there is no way to "make" her change her mind about this, but I have experienced enough successes with other strategies that I have carried out "unilaterally" that have resulted in changes in her behavior over time (very long periods of time!) that I am wondering if there is anything like that which could be helpful for me in relation to this.

Or maybe her belief about her own behavior and emotions is something that has to come from her and possibly from her work with her own individual therapist.

[BasementDweller]

... .my BPD partner still seems to feel, even after her emotions have calmed down, that there really was something wrong with where the toothpaste was, and that even if her reaction was a little exaggerated, the fundamental problem was really that I had moved the toothpaste.

I am probably exaggerating this to make a point, but I don't think she has come to a point of accepting that her disregulation and how she behaves when she is disregulated is a separate problem that needs to be addressed.  I think deep down she still feels the behavior is justified even if it is too extreme.

Any insights or pointers into how you and your partner got to where you are now?  The most important thing I am curious about is whether there is anything I can do to help nudge my partner in the right direction?  I realize there is no way to "make" her change her mind about this, but I have experienced enough successes with other strategies that I have carried out "unilaterally" that have resulted in changes in her behavior over time (very long periods of time!) that I am wondering if there is anything like that which could be helpful for me in relation to this.

Or maybe her belief about her own behavior and emotions is something that has to come from her and possibly from her work with her own individual therapist.

Hmmm... .you know... .I think my partner is in the same boat too, in the sense that he really does feel "wronged" if the toothpaste gets moved, and while he does know that his behavior and reactions can be extreme, I think he also feels that being upset about it overall is justified.

Where I have managed to make progress is to acknowledge that he finds these things frustrating and that I do not want to frustrate him and I am willing to work with him, but the manner in which he expresses himself will make a huge difference in how apt I am to respond favorably. I know when pwBPD rant about seemingly trivial things, they really just want to be heard, understood, and acknowledged. It can be really difficult as a non-disordered person to be attentive and sympathetic when someone is yelling irrationally at you over something that is not in any way, shape, or form a real-life emergency.

And while I may just really NOT get it... .I have to accept it's very distressing to him.

So I sort of had to break my responses into two parts:

1.) I hear you when you say you are frustrated, and that it stresses you out when things are not where you expect them to be. That's understandable.

2.) In order to help this not to be a problem anymore, I am willing to hear what you have to say and make an effort to not misplace things - BUT - I ask in return that you express yourself respectfully, even if you are very frustrated. It isn't necessary to shout or use sarcastic remarks in order to make a simple request, nor is it effective because I will not be inclined to help anybody who is shouting at or insulting me. (Here I make it about "anyone/everyone" - not him.)

Then I asked him how he would feel if his boss was needing to correct him on a work related issue, and instead of saying "I noticed that you did X, but I'd prefer if you did Y because it may have a better result"  - he just started yelling and saying, "You did X! WHY? That's not what I wanted! What the hell is wrong with you?"

He was able to tell me pretty succinctly that he'd have no problem accommodating the boss if he asked in the first way, but would likely tell him to go f*ck himself and would quit on the spot if he received the second version. In that case, I was able to actually use his emotionally disregulative tendencies to an advantage. The mere THOUGHT of his boss yelling at him like that actually triggered some anger and defensiveness in him. He FELT what it would be like to be shouted down like that, and was pretty hurt and annoyed himself just thinking about it.

And that worked. Because it reminded him that he was much more likely to get the result he wanted if he asked respectfully, and did not piss off the other person whom he really wanted something from. (In this case, cooperation and understanding.) This tactic might not have worked if he was upset at the time of the conversation, but he was actually calm and in a decent mood, and that's when I have found he's more receptive to things like positive change, acknowledging his faults, and considering other peoples' view points.

He has also done well with EFT because it is not about his disorder or his letter combination. It is about helping to improve relationships through exploring our emotional responses and recognizing and managing them better. (Among other things.) That's what people with BPD NEED, but sometimes they are reluctant to talk about BPD or participate in therapies that are "about" BPD. He and I do this together, so it's not about one of us being "disordered" but about both of us working together to improve how we relate. He's not singled out as "the one with the problem."

He also had gotten to a point where he was as upset about our constant bickering as I was and he was willing to try anything to finally have some peace in his life, and in his relationship - something he never really had. So that helped. He was done feeling that way - angry and triggered most of the time, and finally realized that he didn't need or want to be a slave to it anymore. I think if a person hasn't reached that point yet, they are still stubbornly clinging to wanting to be right all the time, and wanting to be happy instead (and believeing it's possible) hasn't sunk in yet.

[TRB]

So I sort of had to break my responses into two parts:

1.) I hear you when you say you are frustrated, and that it stresses you out when things are not where you expect them to be. That's understandable.

2.) In order to help this not to be a problem anymore, I am willing to hear what you have to say and make an effort to not misplace things - BUT - I ask in return that you express yourself respectfully, even if you are very frustrated. It isn't necessary to shout or use sarcastic remarks in order to make a simple request, nor is it effective because I will not be inclined to help anybody who is shouting at or insulting me. (Here I make it about "anyone/everyone" - not him.)

This is extremely helpful.  Thank you!

I have tried this kind of solution but often "forget" to use it in the moment, so the reminder is good.  The real challenge for me continues to be that even if I am not able to take the insults personally in the moment, sometimes I find that they creep into my subconscious and can have negative impacts on my self-esteem long after.  I have been meditating and using other kinds of self-awareness techniques to protect myself against these side-effects of the insults.  And I have been trying to be compassionate towards myself, recognizing that anyone would find it very challenging to be on the receiving end of such brutal, unjustified, cruel insults thrown at them in a rage, even if they knew the insults had no basis in reality.  It is just not an easy experience to go through repeatedly, particularly with an intimate partner.

Maybe this will sound cruel or condescending, but sometimes I have thought about it as if she has Tourette's Syndrome--the words that come out of her mouth when she is disregulated are being spoken out of reflect, not because they have anything to do with me or reality.  It can be helpful for me to think of it this way, in order to not take it personally and have the insults sink in and effect my self esteem.