BPDFamily.com

This might be a touchy subject, but I think the worst part of dealing with BPD woman might be the law enforcement threat.

I think in a way police give this type of woman the ultimate trump card, and type of power that is what actually controls the nons life.

It seems women are a protected class, and a BPD woman can exploit this to her advantage.  

My ex wife would even tell me when raging "I know exactly how to act and what to say to get you arrested.  All I have to do is call".  And she is right.

I think unfortunately that's why it is best to run and cut ties with this type of woman immediately.  Maybe if laws were different, and the power balance more equal, they might change or it might be easier to deal with them without the fear of inprisonment for raising your voice or defending yourself.

Interesting topic.  I'm sorry to hear that was your situation and can understand how frustrating and upsetting that must be. 

To balance the scales I was also threatened with the police on more than one occasion.  During a violent outburst when the police arrived to intervene, my ex began to make false accusations that he was prepared to report to them about my stealing from him.  This was projection of course, as he'd stolen from me but I didn't waste my time reporting it.  Also on the last occasion I visited him in his new place I was there with the intention to retrieve a laptop I'd lent to him and he threatened to call the police on me then.  I left the laptop and happily took the loss rather than deal with him any more.  So it seems it can work both ways.

The way I viewed it was a little bit like a child in the school playground having a gripe with another and threatening to 'tell their dad'.  Wielding a larger power I think made him feel he had some leverage over me in order to control my behaviour into doing what he wanted rather than honouring my own boundaries.  Nobody wants false allegations to be made against them, especially if it could result in having a record, and it seems this can be a last resort response from a sufferer of either sex if things aren't going their way. 

What have you taken from the experience that you will carry into the future with you?

Love and light x     

Litigation is just the adult world form of bullying.

Yes she can use the cops to create a huge amount of wreckage in your life, it is not difficult at all to be arrested at the very least, be forced to defend your actions and the end result, best case scenario, is that you walk away unproven for the allegations. In the midst of that, legal fees, emotional turmoil and reputation damage. It is a tool that can be used with very little consequence or risk attached to the one making the allegations. Mines never did or hinted any of that, but I wouldnt put anything past her, and thanks for posting because its another thing to make me think twice about.

I agree with your overall conclusion... It is a power play to retain control... .Have their own way etc.

And I am sure male BPD sufferers make the same threats.

However, at the end of the day, the system vastly is set up to protect poor beaten women, and at any hint of any sort of abuse, the man can have his life ruined immediately.  So it is nowhere the same level of power, fear, control etc, when a man threatens to calls the police on a gf. 

I think what it means in the real world is that the female BPD KNOWS she can be physically aggressive... She can damage things... She can basically act like a mad 4 yr old, and there is no real life recourse. On the flip side, SHE KNOWS she can make a call, say she was "pushed" and the husband or boyfriend is carted off to jail. Then the man is stuck in the legal system for years...

Men do not have this power within the system.  They are afraid to report abuse, as chances are THEY are the ones who will be arrested.

What have I learned?  To simply stay far away and not play with fire. I think in many relationships with a BPD woman this "power play" plays a large dynamic within the relationship.

Often times we all know BPD CAN control their rage and behavior. Knowing that legally they don't really have to , and that the tables can easily be flipped, does nothing more than to further encourage such behavior.

Hi Husband321,


I think that you’re right not everyone woman is going to treat you like this there is a small fraction of people that suffer from this disorder. I’m sorry that you had to go through that awful experience.

Cut and run is a good option... .if you can identify the penchant for drama up front,  for both men and women.  There was police involvement and restraining orders in both relationships with my ex on either side of mine. And her husband was slammed to the ground and charged with resisting arrest two years ago  I was discussing this with a buddy of mine,  remembering the multiple police visits to his house when he was a teen because of his dad and step mom.  That kind of stuff isn't normal.   We both agreed.  

You're preaching to the choir here though.  How does realizing this help us move forward? Does it make us hypersensitive to even normal r/s "drama" going forward?

No, a good Law enforcement officer will see through deceptions and lies, it usually comes as they keep dealing with the same lies...

my ex is  BPD- I was clued in after round 2 and 3 of silent treatment. Abuse... all fine in the shallows of Normal life... but I came to recognize the behaviors in other women, mainly... my career ended because a BPD gal was sleeping with my superior and his superior.  ( she was married to another) this woman was and still is abusing her husband, kids, and uses her threats to facilitate her needs... I was a threat... I caught her and her issues, which caused her to lose her kids... power of the BPD and narcissistic traits to get her whim done... I feel for the others, and her husband apologizes profusely for my loss of employment due to her lies, and her blackmail to my superiors.  Karma will come...

A good cop will see thru it... many good lawyers will not take a BPD client on as well... lies, failure to pay bills, etc... good luck

Good cop vs. mandatory arrest protocols. One of the at risk youth I used to mentor was arrested for DV. He said that the female cop pounded her fist in frustration on her squad car as she was writing the report.  Shaking her head and pacing.  The cop intuited that she started it or engaged.  His likely BPD baby momma refused to press charges.  The DA disagreed and he spent 3 months in the county jail. 

After he got out he went back against my advice.  Now she's pulling the typical things,  blackmailing him for CS without an order.  Keeping their daughter away from him.  His past DV conviction puts him in a difficult place. 

Well, I would like to make 2 points that I think might be valuable as I am 6 months removed from the relationship and can see things clearly.

A.  Often times we read BPD's are stuck around the 5 yo age mark emotionally... So its like dealing with a child at times.  Now how do people deal with children when they act up?  Even if raised correctly, children still will act up at times.

We might give them a time out. We might threaten to take away an activity they like... Some people, and it is perfectly legal, spank them. Or physically restrain them... Now during these times, as stressful as they might be, your 5 yo will not grab the phone, dial 911 and concoct a story to land you in jail.  We don't cower and run from a 5 yo when they act up. We don't let them destroy things or hit us. If we did, the 5 yr old might be trained that being aggressive actually works to get their way.

Now when dealing with a BPD woman who is raging, men are severely hindered as to what they can do. You cannot hit them back. Give them a time out. Restrain them. Etc. You sort of have to either leave, hope it blows over, etc. Which in a way MIGHT be sending the wrong message. Perhaps if you could stand up to them in all ways, this behavior would subside.  But in this day and age men cannot.

So 100% of the power is given to the BPD woman whom is acting like a child, raging, and being destructive.  Perhaps at times these women NEED someone to stand up to them, but its not possible. So in many ways we are limited as to our response.

Looking back my only fear was the police. I didn't care if she broke something. OR pushed me. Or even hit me as I was bigger and stronger.

B.  I also don't think many men who ignore the red flags realize how the system really works. Once in it you are basically guilty until proven innocent, embarrassed, can lose your freedom, job, family, income, right to own a gun, etc... All based solely on an allegation. So if your gf hints at calling police, or said she did before, it is a good clue to cut all ties and run.  You cannot stick around and try to help or be with a woman that has done this before, or threatens to in this current society.

In my case, my wife would get upset, pick up the phone, and just call 911 asking for a police escort. I mean we would barely be arguing at times and I would be shocked.  

Police come over, come inside, talk to us, she gathers her things and leaves... Then she would come back in  an hour and apologize... It was a scary and embarrassing ordeal to have 3 cop cars show up at my home in the neighborhood.

So after she did this a few times, and she said she never would again, she did it again... .

However this time when she called , I was recorded on the 911 tape as saying
"put the phone down", and I grabbed the phone...  Well, this is "obstructing a 911 call", and I was arrested for that. $3200 for bail, $1500 for an attorney, having to meet an "anger management" professional, and the whole ordeal took a year. (Luckily I had 3200 in cash at home or I could have been there for a while)

In the end  she wrote an email to the prosecutor admitting her illness, and it was all completely dropped. However this was solely up to the prosecutor.

I guess I am saying as we might try to learn all sorts of tools in communicating with a BPD, the most basic right of self defense and standing up to them is taken off the table because of the X factor which is law enforcement. Good cop or bad cop, they often times have to remove someone from the home, and most likely it will be the man. Even if you ate not falsely accused, and even if nothing got physical, once police are involved anything can happen.

And my BPD wife knew this so well... She would even tell me when upset... "Look, ill call the police and have you arrested. I am a woman and you are a man. What do you think will happen if I call to tell them you pushed me?"
 

I only once had the police turn up and it was bizarre because it was one of those moments of her going into not even so much a rage but just a depressive temper tantrum over literally nothing. It was the circular depressive outlet moments where "I" (because I was the only one in the world to listen as a captive audience) cant even say what it was about because I had tuned out into my own world. I went to bed and all of a sudden there was a police officer there, I said "what are you doing here I never called you" and he was blunt and snappy saying "well, weve had a call she wants us here".

They ended up leaving the house with a "what the heck are we doing here" expression. Then her whole behavior towards me changed into wanting me to stay up and cook. It was almost as if she had obtained some sort of release, I had been painted black for some unknown reason and by disengaging and going to bed I had left her alone, so this was her last resort to force a response.

That was the only time it happened but maybe she did it as a way to show me that she could involve them if she felt she needed to. to answer your question, it all depends on what cops turn up and how much experience they have. They really dont care at all much of who is the real victim, if they turn up and you have punched a wall out of displaced anger, your just the equivalent of a piece of meat to them anyway, they dont care if you chose to live with someone that got you to that point.

Which is fair enough and they are just doing their jobs. In my scenario I wouldnt have had the police to worry about, my ex knew lots of shady violent and disordered people. being arrested and jailed for a few months would have been the least of my concerns. She wouldnt have phoned the police for a slap, which she was literally begging for at times, but it would have just validated to her that I was the bad person who was responsible for all her current and future feelings of emptiness and unhappiness.

I think in that situation they probably realised she was "nuts" and there wasnt any evidence of any crime. It was surreal though and I think I was more taken back by how bizarre it all was that it didnt even register to me what was actually going. I still havent worked out who was more insane, her or me for staying through it.

I hear you.

When mine would call the police for a "police escort", it was as if she got a sort of high out of it. Her demeanor changed, she would walk about calm and smug, gathering her things, ignoring me, while being friendly with the police... All to return within an hour like nothing happened,

Also, looking back, I am wondering how on earth did I stay? Why did I? it was downright scary to live with someone who loves you one minute, but could jeopardize your future the next over any disagreement

Hi,

I'm female and I've also been threatened with police like others here. It is a control tactic and men can use it too. I called his bluff on it. But let me assure you it is scary, in my case, to be in a foreign country and have someone acting like they are willing to do anything to destroy you and your life.

Women's shelters exist for a reason. The women's movements around the world struggled and created them to help people who are especially vulnerable to abuse. Men, by and large, don't face the same challenges, but that is not to say at all that it isn't hard to be a man. It is. Men can be terrorized by women with false accusations just like women can be. I see no point in pitting men and women against each other. If there was a movement for men that paralleled the feminist movement in size and scope and was up to challenging patriarchy, male privilege, expectations of men, and was open to a reframing of masculinity that was more positive I'd be all for it.

Man, the things I forget that have happened sometimes! A little here, a little there, it all adds up!

Your best chance with the police is to be articulate and calm. Short of that, and even then, anything can happen.

wishing you peace, pearl.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

If your ex called police on you and you were hauled off to jail for doing nothing that is very unfortunate.   If he said you raped him, or beat him and the police took you to jail I am very sorry.  I feel that is however pretty rare.  :)id you go to jail? Did he even call?

It's like when people say pithulls are dangerous because they bite people. And someone stands up and says "it's not true!  My uncle goes around biting pitbulls!"

You can read these stories on many sites.   And I think we all generally know if police come to a domestic dispute it is by and large always going to be the man  taken to jail.  That is what BPD women know, and that is what male nons know. Just the way it is.

As men we can't really involve the police with a BPD woman. So that option is off the table. That is an option women have and one that BPD women exploit to the fullest.

Example.  Let's say my BPD wife is swinging at me and throwing things. I call the police. I tell them what happened.  She tells them I was throwing things and swinging at her. "Sir.  Hands behind your back.  We have to take someone to jail"

Pearle   This is the difference.

If the male BPD is raging and hitting you, you can just call the cops on him. He is taken to jail.

Most likely he won't be doing the hitting AND calling cops.

With the female BPD they can hit you AND call the cops. Which leaves the male what option?

I guess my overall point is that if you meet a woman who was repeatedly in relationships with "abusers", and she mentioned in passing calling the police on them, you need to wake up and realize you will be you next.  And most likely this woman is BPD.   Instead of falling for her "victim" stories, which is also what I did.

Over the years I came to find out my ex wife called the police on her first bf 3 times. Second bf twice.  First husband 7 times, and then me several times.  Every man was arrested at some point in time. Those are just the men I know of that she told me about calling the police on. 

Now how many times do you think my wife was arrested? ZERO.  And I can tell you she has an evil and vicious temper she can't control. 

Every man she came across landed in jail.

What's interesting is that you did stay long enough for it to happen several times.  Perhaps you found out about the history after that had happened, so I won't assume that you recognised the pattern at the time.  How long before the last time she called the police on you was the first occasion and are you able to put your finger on what it was that compelled you to remain in the r/s in between?

Love and light x

I was naive... I was thinking as long as I did nothing, how on earth could I get into trouble?  I also believed her when she said she "never would again", and that she would get help if I forgave her...  
At the time I wasn't ready to divorce over that which would have meant a big upheaval in living situations, my son, her kids etc.

Now once I did get into trouble, the dynamic totally changed even more. She had 100% of the power... I was the husband out on bail... If she smacked me could I smack her back?(not that I ever did) Nope... Would I dare risk jail by calling the police on her for destroying things? Nope... The best I could do is leave the premises if she started up, which most likely made her lose even more respect for me for not standing up to her.  It would be like giving a 5 yr old total control over your life.

I do think BPD's largely CAN control their behavior...  If they make a call over nonsense THEY should go to jail... If they hit you they should be hit back... .If they cheat during a divorce THEY should lose everything... .I can almost guarantee many of their "bad behaviors" would subside quickly...

But as it is now, a BPD woman can cheat and it has no bearing in divorce. They can hit you and KNOW you won't call the cops. And they know THEY can call the cops and have you hauled away...

So the legal system totally enables BPD women to act like crazy 5 yr old children with all the power.  

And as for DV laws going with ways, I didn't hear too many DV groups coming to Tiger Woods support when his wife smacked him in the head with a golf club through the car window for cheating. Or knocking the rest of his windows out while he was driving away.

It was more or less a tonight show punchline or joke.  If the tables were reversed, any man would be imprisoned for that... For decades.  He would be a monster who used a deadly weapon against his wife. But we largely viewed is wife as the poor woman who was cheated on by some jerk who deserved it.

So we live in a "feminized society", and men need to be ultra careful when dealing with a BPD woman.

Did she get the help she promised to get?

There are local domestic abuse services and national groups who take male partner domestic violence victims very seriously.  There is support for men who are going through this.  I'd be a bit wary of major reform to DV policy when only 150 years ago it was legal and therefore perfectly acceptable for a man to beat his wife (certainly in the UK).  It's taken a long time and a huge amount of campaigning to get to where we are now.  In Britain, a woman is assaulted in her home every 60 seconds and one woman a week is murdered by her partner or ex partner.  On average a woman is assaulted 15 times before she calls the police.  (I happen to know these figures because of a domestic violence recovery programme I attended) It's important that those calls are taken seriously.

I hear your feelings that it's unjust that some individuals are taking advantage of that system and I understand how distressing and frustrating that must be.  What would you change about the system if you were able?  What could you change if you were ever in the same situation again?  What would you change if you could go back and have a do over? 

Love and light x   

Totally agree. My STBX controlled his behavior when it suited him.
Do you mean cheat sexually? In my state, cheating has no bearing in a divorce, and, believe me, I wanted (still want) to go after my STBX for cheating. It's a No Fault state. Makes no difference legally for either the husband or wife.

Funny the similarity here. I always said that my STBX acted like he was five, and he was enabled to behave that way by his psychiatrist and his FOO. He was/is wealthy, and as you point to the legal system, I pointed to his wealth enabling him to get out of anything he did, including attempting to rob a bank.

I'd broaden this: Both men and women need to be ultra careful when dealing with someone with BPD. I had a friend who was attempting to divorce his BPD wife, and she plotted his murder. Got caught. But still pretty creepy to know someone's trying to kill you.
Right before my STBX left, I was terrified that he had hired someone to kill me. There were cars and trucks going by the house very slowly early in the morning. Freaked me out.
I need to remember just how terrifying that was.
So, yeah, I agree: be very very careful with people with BPD (or NPD). They are not particularly nice people.
TMD






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I do not put much faith in stats unless I know exactly how they are compiled.  It is really eye opening to see how most of them are. I also read a new study that illustrates men are far more often the victims of DV, but never report it.

I do find it interesting in the USA it is legal to hit children. Children are totally captive and cannot leave.  But I guess they do not vote, so whooping them is acceptable.

I also don't know about a "huge amount of campaigning" as govts typically grow their power on their own.  And if some politicians get more votes for doing so, all the better for them.

What would I change?  I don't think law enforcement should even be involved in DV disputes.  In many nations they are not. If they are, false reports need to be severely punished.  It's quite scary to be hauled away because "someone feels scared". Which is where we are at now.

And I feel if any man starts dating a woman and they speak of how they called the cops on an ex, it is a good clue to run. Either they choose horribly, or they are full of drama

Are these  just words that sound good? So their are services and groups who "take it seriously". Along with "national support for men?" What does that mean in practical terms?

So let me ask.  What should a man do if how BPD wife is hitting him?  Obviously it isn't life threatening YET, but what should he do?

You do realize i could substitute "child" in the above, and change the words from assault to "spank" or "corporal punishment and that is perfectly acceptable.  And statistically far more women assault their children than men.  (Most likely because they are around them far more).  Which perhaps might be a causal link to all the violent men walking around who were assaulted  by their moms.

And it is interesting that I am repeatedly asked "why did you stay?"  Where as I don't think women are asked that.  And if they were it would not be PC. 

Not sure if I can post links here.  But just illustrating how it is a fact most DV is women against men.  While women account for 7 percent of arrests.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/19133-women-more-likely-to-commit-domestic-violence-studies-show

This comes from the National Hotline website:


You can find the rest of the page 'Men can be victims of abuse too' on their site HERE (http://www.thehotline.org/2014/07/22/men-can-be-victims-of-abuse-too/) to read more.  The site has a good section titled Path to safety, which covers all the key things my domestic abuse advocate went through with me regards safety planning and planning ahead if leaving the r/s.  



If a man's wife is abusing him physically, whether BPD or not, I'd advise him to seek help.  Violence can escalate over time and it's important to ensure the safety of a partner who is being abused, and that of any children in the home.  I've also been in the situation where I didn't know what to do.  Violence can be a final assertion of power and control after a lengthy psychological wearing down which can leave a partner feeling exhausted, emotionally worn out, isolated and helpless.  There's also the shame factor amongst other reasons that a partner may stay in an abusive r/s.  :)oes any of that resonate?  Talking about this is uncomfortable and can bring up a lot of emotions.  It is understandable that this would be upsetting for you and I want to assure you that we are here for you as you work through whatever comes up.  

This being the Learning board, we come here to ask the difficult questions of ourselves and if it becomes triggering for you to think about something, then it's advisable to step away from your computer for a while and give yourself a break.  It can be hard to look back on difficult memories and start to look deeper into the whys and wherefores.  We get that.  There's no pressure to reply right away.  Take all the time you need.  It's your journey.  Many of us can empathise with that.  

Love and light x

The Department of Justice reports that 75% of the DV deaths are female, 25% are male. Most of the research I've read suggest that percentages are almost flipped for low level assault (slapping, kicking, etc.).
 
I wanted to share this subdata about men killed in DV in Maryland in 2009 (example of the numbers behind the numbers):
 

48% 19% 24% 10%

Killed themselves or were killed after committing murder Killed by a boyfriend/husband Killed by a women Were children

www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/02/01/why-do-so-many-men-die-as-a-result-of-domestic-violence/
 
If the Maryland number are typical for other states, this would suggest that 8-9% of the dv deaths are caused by women.
 
No point here other than trying to give a balanced profile of the state of serious domestic abuse (the data that is driving the lawmakers).

I think why certain law makers introduce or pass certain laws is definitely up for debate.  I suppose no matter how many different laws we have against murder, people will still murder.  How many murders are prevented by these new laws? I have no idea.  How many more are actually caused by these new laws? No idea.

We live in a new age in many ways.  As you stated, low level DV is usually initiated by women in this day and age.  They are no longer the stereotypical gentle ladies we envision 100 years ago. Why are they initiating violence against others who are much bigger and stronger in most cases?  Well because they can. 

But boys are still trained to "be a man". "Not strike a woman" etc.

So while these new laws help ruin the lives of many men who are not murderers or even assaulters, women, and especially BPD women, initiate violence more and more. 

I have a long time friend from college who is not BPD.  She told me "you know. I was always acting up. Being a brat.  And one day my husband slapped me. From that day on I totally respected him as the man. "

Does this mean going around hitting women is a good idea.  Lol.  Of course not.

But if a BPD woman is raging on you, perhaps that is what she needs. 

Those options are taken off the table because men with guns who have no idea of what is going on will haul you away.   And I feel that sends a powerful message to BPD women. "See I was right.  I am a woman.  I can rage.  Act like a 5 yr old, hit you, and YOU are still wrong". Which makes standing up to them and having a balanced relationship a very difficult thing to do.

As an example, they do studies all the time.

When people walk by a man hitting a woman, people call the police. Intervene.

When people walk by a woman hitting a man, they chuckle.  Laugh. It is more or less "oh wow. Wonder what he did to make her mad. Hahaha"

So while we have new laws, I don't think they were made with BPD women in mind. Which is what we are talking about. 

Imagine the insanity if your 5 yr old was able to threaten to call the police if you don't let him stay up late.  Or if you stopped him from hitting you.  And if you know, and your 5 yr old knows you are afraid of this happening. 

All of his bad behaviors would sort of be validated and you would be living at his mercy.   That's kind of what it feels like with a BPD woman.  They are emotionally about 5, know they can get away with things, and if need be can call the police to have more people on their side.  None of that influences a BPD to change. 

There are zero men’s shelters in my area.

Legislators and enforcers (police), even the NFL, are largely driven the public outcry that occurs when a women is killed by her husband and there are prior police reports of DV.

There are many men and men's rights groups that counter with how problematic these laws and policies are for men who end up being arrested and spend thousands in legal fees to resolve false DV reports.

There are studies that show extremely high rate of false DV reports during divorces with custody disputes. The legal professionals and the courts know this, but it continues.

Society supports this over-reach in protecting women from domestic homicide and politicians prefer this over reach rather than take political hits. A judge friend once explained to me, I rather save a women's life than protect a handful of hot head guys from a night in jail and a few thousand in legal fees.

Personally, I wish we could do both. Protect women and be fair to men, but this problem exists.


I have a powerful dog. The prior owner couldn't control the dog, hit it a lot, and finally surrendered her.  She has been with me for 3 years. I never hit her, never raised my voice. She is good with babies, small dogs, cats. I take her shopping and to restaurants. She respects me and is confident (not fearful). I respect her and I am confident and not fearful.

Is hitting a way to respect with animals or people? I haven't ever used it.

What do you think? Sounds like you support a little intimidation from time to time.

Good question. I will be interested to hear what others say.

I think in the dog example, if you adopted this dog and it did attack you and latch on, or attacked someone else, hitting it or kicking it to make it stop would definitely be justified.  It would probably be your natural reaction.

I support self defense.  Not intimidation.  In my above example with the woman getting slapped by her husband, he finally had enough of her raging. Immaturity.  And "low level" domestic violence.  If he cowered and ran to tell family members I wonder if she would have respected him more then? Or less?

Before this got sidetracked into a male/ female argument, what most interested me was an overall hypothesis or 2.  

A I feel BPD's can control themselves.  Mine wasn't attacking police, strangers, or other men or women.  If a BPD woman continuously rages and assaults her partners,  if one person ever hit her back, would she have adapted her behavior? If she did not have the police at her disposal, would she change her ways?  

B. Deep down, does a BPD woman WANT a man to stand up to her? Or does she respect you more if you leave, call support groups, tell family
Members etc.

Looking back I think it is difficult to gain a BPD females respect if you run away from them.  And if they know they can hit you. And if they know you are scared of them calling the police.

But in this current day and age, merely defending yourself against a woman is not an option.  Below is tips from webmd if you are a male suffering DV.

Imagine a school bully that had anonymity from any retribution and even had the school staff and law enforcement on his side!  :)o you think he would bully more? Or less?

"Never allow yourself to be provoked into any kind of retaliation," says Brown. "We tell men if they have to be in an argument, do it in a room with two doors so they can leave; a lot of times a woman will block the door, the man will try to move her, and that will be enough for him to get arrested."

I spent 35 years of my life learning to hurt people in one way or another --- a weapon is merely an extension of the hand.  The first and best lesson from all of this training in Western and Eastern disciplines was the same --to not fight. 

“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.”  ― Sun Tzu

I was taught, bloodied and beaten into the belief that violence is a matter of absolute last resort. 

To continue with the dog example.  I have never hit my dog.  I have never yelled at my dog.  Interestingly people yell at their dog for barking right?  You are 'barking' while they do and rewarding the behavior.

Even when my undiagnosed BPD ex was raging I let her know violence was off the table.  She tested me with aggressive finger poking. Even if she had hit me I would never have hit her back.  Violence begets violence.  It would have in my opinion rewarded her behavior and caused an escalation.

I feel fighting and violence are binary.  Either I am fighting to put someone down and out or I am not fighting.  Shades of grey and a lack of commitment in a fight is extremely dangerous.  You do not shoot to wound and you do not fight to injure.  So to cross the line and actually strike someone I would be crossing an emotional line and committing fully.  It must simply remain off the table in my opinion.

She told me once her boyfriend before me 'wanted people to be afraid of him'.  I told her I never want anyone to fear me.


Wicker Man

I totally agree.  I just feel we live in a strange society where over 70 percent of Americans feel it is ok to hit children!  We are more proud and outspoken about not hitting dogs.

I guess in my head I wonder how the BPD woman thinks.  If it were me, I would not hit someone much bigger/stronger/skilled at fighting.  (I wouldn't initiate violence in the first place against anyone). So do they do this as they know they won't be hit back? Or because they know the police will be on their side? Or they simply can't control their impulses.  I wonder if they could be legally treated as equals, if they would continue such behavior.

My experience with an undiagnosed BPD lover was brief, only a year.  During this time I saw no ability to control her emotions whatsoever.  Fight or flight is based in fear.  I think her life was so full of fear she would lash out in any manner at her disposal.  Usually words, sometimes ghosting people, sometimes risqué behavior (notice the restraint :) ), sometimes in moments of crushing darkness she would cut herself. 

She once tore all the flooring out of her grandparents apartment with her bare hands.  She is 90 pounds and to this day the floor remains unadorned concrete.  She loves them more than any other people on earth.

I believe if she had had the presence of mind to think 'hmmmm the police will help me' she would have had the presence of mind remembered all the people she was hurting loved her.  Likely all BPD people are as individual as the rest of us -no two are exactly alike.  Mine was passionate in rage and love -neither with any thought to consequences.  It may have been her youth.

I am relieved to read your view.  I was beginning to become concerned you advocated violence.  I beg your pardon for my misunderstanding.


Have a peaceful weekend,



Wicker Man

PS In my neighborhood the dogs are better behaved than the children -but this is a digression.

I knew I was treading in dangerous waters when I discovered that she told two friends one night that I had beaten and raped her. Her response of "I wanted someone to feel sorry for me" and "what do you care, you'll never see those people again" scared me even more. When she started threatening to call the police and have me locked up during her rages I knew that I was doomed. I've never touched her or any woman violently. Ever. She would say she was calling the police; clutch, then scratch her neck and arms and say "who do you think they will believe?", I knew I could take no more.

So, I began to keep my phone close and would turn the recorder on during the raging so I could replay for the police if they showed. She would often boast during many of the rages as to what she was planning. I figured with so many recordings, I was in a better place should she ever call them. I also met with a senior policeman after a bad night where I let her beat the snot out of me. It wasn't to press charges, but to let them know what might come from her and what I was doing with the phone. He didn't object, wondered about the legality of doing so, but suggested that it was probably a good idea. It was dishonest of me, but what choice is there but protect oneself? Three years out and I still cannot listen to those recordings.

Fascinating thread. By everyone.
This post really speaks to me. My STBX used to tell people I physically abused him. I'm 4'10"; he's 5'11". Plus, I never spanked my kids. I once pulled my daughter by the ponytail when she was 2 because she was about to run into traffic.
When she went through a biting stage, people used to tell me I should spank her or bite her back. Instead, if I was carrying her, I'd flip her upside down, so she couldn't really hurt me.
I personally think spanking should be against the law. However, I know I'm in the  minority.
I am tired today, but still happy I am in a position where all the craziness will eventually end.
TMD

Touchy subject. But this is a safe place so I’d share. After a petty argument by my exBPd. And after I proved her wrong, all of a sudden she hit me with the “you raped me” and changed all the details of one of the nights we had sex. Changed every little thing that occured and made me feel like I was going crazy. Used the one thing I hate, rape. Against me. I can’t even watch it in movies without getting pissed, yet she accused me of lt. threatened to go to the cops if I ever come contacted her Again. Blamed me for the reason we dont hve sex anymore because I’m a monster.

I was scared at work. I was scared everyday she would ruin my life. I was scared to say date anyone she would probably get mad and use it against me and control me.

I never felt so broken, anxious, confused in my life. A month later, got back together. She pushed for sex and I asked for consent. I saw the shame in her face for her lies.

Relationship was never the same after that. I didn’t feel safe anymore. I felt my heart race everytime we were together instead of being safe like before. I withdrew completely until the relationship ran its course. I would rush home after a date instead of sleeping over and find excuses to do homework or go to work. She of course blamed me for being needy and that’s why She left. Told me she didn’t feel eel anything romantic yet was the one that told me she wasnt a sexual person and is asexual and I respected her.

Sorry for hijacking. Just wanted to share.

No hijacking. It happens. I still love my ex, but on a very different plane. I still care for the person I spent 25 years with. I genuinely want her to have healing and happiness.

When sex becomes a weapon the scales come off for a lot of us men. Its an area where most of us are careful, respectful of boundaries, and the limits to passion. During those intimate moments when we are most vulnerable certain rules do apply in the aftermath. My ex messaging a man (that she was in an emotional affair with) the next morning that I raped her mortified and disturbed me more than anything she had done it 20 years. She had attempted to seduce me to defuse the situation she had created. It was a routine that I participated in for years to calm the "demon". Her way of rebalancing and saying never mind, "get over yourself, I need a good f*****g".  It didn't work that night. I had been broken from five hours of raging while I sat quietly and endured the play book as I always did.

Accusations of abuse hit very hard at our core if we're decent, respectful, gentle, and loving. For me, it was the final straw the broke the camels back. Her painfully feeble attempts to casually dismiss her behavior fell on deaf ears. I was finally very afraid.

IMO, engaging or even threatening to involve the police should become a deal breaker. When the PD evolves into suggestions or accusations of abuse it is time to plan for an exit or at a minimum to protect oneself.

Totally agree...

As for the laws, I don't even know if most people understand how they work.  Once in that web of the justice system you are GUILTY and totally at their mercy. There doesn't have to be any proof of violence. Rape. Or injuries. or anything. It isn't what you see on TV. Your BPD spouse cannot decide to drop charges. It is in the hands of the prosecutor. And it will be on your record forever. Hindering employment. Never being able to own a gun. Etc.  

When my BPD ex painted me white again, I told her she must tell the truth about what happened. She emailed the prosecutor, the "anger management" psychologist I had to see etc... This helped... But for the many months before my final court date, any tiny argument led her to jump to "I am going to tell the courts I lied in those emails and you are hitting me constantly" Luckily she never did, and luckily the entire case was dropped at the last minute without me having to plea to a lesser charge.

Thats the problem with the court system. Does  marking a totally innocent persons record forever somehow prevent a murder? Or is it a way for everyone else to make more money... Anger management courses. Probation. Bail bondsman. Lawyers. Fines. etc. If I was poor, lets just say I would be screwed.

Another time we were having a great night. But she was drinking scotch. And she drank ALOT.

Something set her off, and she started packing her bags to go leave. She was clearly not able to drive and could barely walk.  So I took the keys and hid them, knowing this would pass in a half hour... Well she called police... Police came and had her take a cab. (she returned a half hour later)They told me what I did could be "false imprisonment", or even "kidnapping" in the future, and what I am supposed to do is let her go, then call the cops on her drunk driving, then she would get a DUI. Doesn't make much sense to me, but that would be playing that particular situation correctly in the eyes of the law.

Its one thing to deal with someone hitting you when they rage. tearing your clothes. Destroying your things. But on top of that to having to deal with the justice system, because they are still archaically looked at as a "weak, vulnerable, helpless, innocent" woman in the eyes of society.  

As you can see from the other thread below, when one person is the hitter 80% of the time it is the woman. I think it would be nice to know which rules we are playing by. Are men and women equal in this society? Or are women weaker and must be protected?  It sets off a strange dynamic that empowers women (especially a BPD woman) to be the abuser, yet also be viewed as the abused.  

While a man abusing a woman is equally abhorrent, at least the woman knows with a fair amount of certainty a call to the cops detailing actual physical abuse will lead to justice under the law.
 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240171.80

I don't mean to go on and on, but after being removed from this situation for 6 months, I have different views...

I am just happy to be free... . Anytime I think of missing her, or when I did, no matter what I am doing is better than possibly having the govt take my freedom away based on lies. She still reaches out to me to get back together, and one of the main reasons I would not consider a recycle was her threats to contact law enforcement in the past.

We can all play with stats, but I do believe govt imposed DV laws have a negative effect on these relationships.  Yes, men kill about 1000 current and past intimate partners annually. How many of these men are former military. How many are mentally ill. How many are on crack cocaine. etc etc
DV stats also show most murders of these types are in the African American community, accounting for 45%. This is out of 380,000,000 people.

So is each man a potential murderer?  I guess thats how I felt like I was treated because a BPD woman who was attacking ME, decided to make 911 calls.

At the end of the day, all of us make choices... . While she was volatile and violent, the make up sex was amazing. Many things were amazing. I made a conscious choice to stay.

Many women stay with violent BPD men to try  fix, protect,  or help them. That gives them some sort of pleasure or feeling of being needed. Can these women really not leave, or do they choose to stay? I chose to stay. How does law enforcement pass blanket laws to combat basic human nature.
Unfortunately all of the women I have ever known to be "abused", find this same pattern in every single relationship. 


I think many of us have some view of domestic violence as being the nice, gentle quiet woman is at home, and some man comes home to just beat her. And she has no escape.  Im not sure if that is because of the media, or how we were raised, but in real life I have found many shades of grey to this problem.

I also think in my situation, that 1 minute drunken/impulsive decision on her part to call law enforcement, led to an entire year of stress... Anger management appt... Changing court dates... .Constant letters from "domestic violence" help groups. It was like something that would never go away.

@Husband321 I am sorry you had to experience such a horrific situation.  It must have seemed the world was upside down. 

We are raised to have so much reverence for the justice system and to see it through the lens of such a series of events must have been incredibly painful and iconoclastic. 

I am glad to hear it is behind you.



Wicker Man

Husband321,

I've read all your posts on this topic. Your gf/wife called the police on 5 occasions when you two were fighting and requested a police escort so she could leave the house. The fifth time you took the phone away from her, the police have this recorded, and were arrested for a misdemeanor which caries up to 1 year jail time - you were given a pass because it was the first arrest and you wen to anger training.

You have said that man at times need to be physically intimating and/or hit women to maintain respect, some women won't respect men who don't do this at the appropriate times, a couple should have the right to have physical violence (even at the level of the Ray Rice incident), and the government is subverting the natural relationship between men and women with laws that make anything "abuse" (referring to the Duluth Power and Control Wheel).

We have had many members arrested for DV and many arrested for false DV. The message they collectively have given out members is:

Domestic violence - don't do it (the costs are huge). Get away from any women who even hint at making false or exaggerated claims (the costs are huge).

1. Because of social movement, police operate with aggressive DV policies and in many states must remove one party from the fight (arrest). 2. Police are often told to identify and arrest the primary aggressor - not the person that started the fight. They will arrests the person with the most force. If a women had a gun or knife, she would probably be seen as the primary aggressor, but if it is size/muscle it would be the male. Doesn't matter who called 911. 3. Once arrested, your partner cannot "drop the charges". The DA role is to avoid situations like the Ray Rice case where the spouse did not want her husband punished because she  would suffer the financial losses too ($4Million in the Rice case). 4. Even though most cases are dropped, we can spend a time in jail, drop $10,000 in legal fees, go to court ordered classes, and be "in the system" for 1-2 years.

I know one thing I have learned from reading here is that domestic violence is one of those things that can easily spiral out of control and go very bad very fast.  Tony Brown, nominated by President George W. Bush for a position within the U.S. Treasury Department in 2001, was killed by his wife over an argument about a google search - neighbors were stunned. Here is a list of other DV deaths: www.domesticviolencehomicidehelp.com/2017-deaths/

So, my question is, after going through all of this, what have you learned about yourself regarding domestic violence and what will you do in the future if there is conflict like the 5 incidences with your ex gf/wife?

Thats a good question. And I did have to go to an "anger management" evaluation, but he suggested I did not have a problem with anger, so I did not need the course.

I think if  police calls or threats occur just while dating, the answer is easy... Zero tolerance...

if this starts to occur after being married with children, zero tolerance sounds good, but probably not practical. I am open to practical answers for this... You say something your wife doesn't like and she throws something or smacks you... .What to do?  She threatens to call police on YOU... What to do?  

Yes, certain things spiral out of control... Road rage, parents spanking their children harder and harder, and arguments and physical altercations with your wife.

Maybe if we send people who give the finger to other drivers to jail, it would also prevent future road rage deaths, which is also a problem.  Maybe everyone of them is a potential murderer as well.

It would be nice if we lived in a perfect world... .Where in every relationship a man is together with his wife every single day and night. She has her PMS days... He has his work stress.  :)ealing with deaths, money, sex, jealousy, kids,  alcohol, family, friends , exes, and everyone just has the perfect way to vent and communicate anger and frustration. Unfortunately, BPD or not, for most couples that is not the case. it doesn't mean they are criminals, especially if those 2 people CHOOSE that lifestyle.

In all reality, in most cases, you might really upset your wife and she lashes out... Women are emotional beings... We all get that... Especially BPD women.  Ideally you just hold her, apologize if in the wrong, make her feel loved, and in 5 minutes it goes away. You are the man... .The rock...

It just adds a new "twist" if you will,  if she lashes out AND threatens to call the police, knowing you will be screwed.  The love you were about to give for seeing her upset THEN turns to mistrust, anger, confusion, and terror.   The lashing out is easy to deal with... The men coming to your home with guns who do not know either of you, are not.

More or less I was wondering if this many women would be hitting men IF they knew they could be hit back.  What if they couldn't call men with guns to be the white knight heroes?  Could they then control themselves?   Are girls raised with the mantra "never hit a boy"?

I learned quickly that even restraining my ex-wife (ie; holding her wrists) from hitting me in the face and chest could be construed as violence by me. I figured out the best approach was simply to "run". Always kept a set of cloths in the boot of my car for a hotel. Even when she resorted to threatening, then destroying the house when I would leave, I had to do it. She was 5'3". I'm 6'2". While it might not be fair; to fight back in any way isn't either as we're generally much stronger physically. We're also more suspect than them if the police show.

This is what scared me when my mother got in my face calling me a liar when I first moved her in with us,  and near the end when she got in my face again waving her calendar and threatening me with a lawyer because I had "stolen" her truck. My buddy was keeping it at his home safely because of we had left it on her property it would have been stolen or stripped (it was eventually stolen from her property over a year later after I had returned it to her but that's another stupid story). Her license had been revoked by DMV.

The link Skip posted was for DV deaths in Wisconsin only.  Tragic enough for only a single state out of 50... .and more so because children were murdered,  by both men and women.  

Thanks, but I'm not really sure you are answering it.

The hypothetical you speak about in this are not what happened in your life.

You physically overpowered another human and took the phone away when she was trying to call 911 for a "police standby" as she exited the home after a fight. It is illegal (for obvious reasons), and it's troubling behavior to a lot of members. In the previous 4 "police standbys" your gf/wife did not try to have you arrested or make a false claims, she took a safety measure. Do you see how overpowering her to control phone seems like an escalation?

Shouldn't the police have concerns when a third party is overpowering a person making a 911 call? Isn't it expected/necessary that they take extraordinary and even unsafe measures to converge on the scene as fast as possible (i.e., racing through the streets) as a life may be a stake? Would they have been during their jobs if they didn't see this as a potential sign of extreme danger?

1. Is there really something wrong with the law or the police conduct or the actions of your ex gf/wife that caused you to be arrested? It would seem that there is a very personal life lesson here.

2. What were these five domestic violence calls about?

Extortion and control by your ex gf/wife ? Drama making on the part of your ex gf/wife ? A leveling of the power/threat in relationship fights? Honest sincere concerns by your ex gf/wife (you views on intimidation and power as a tool of respect are pretty strong)?

 

Why only a "standby" with no false claims (the thing you are most concerned about)?

Well I guess the difference is that I know my wife, she was not in any harm, she knew she was not in any harm, and the police do NOT know that.  Every single time she would call for an "escort", and once the police left, and she left,  she would be back in 20 minutes... It was absolutely ridiculous to waste the officers time, embarrassing to have the neighbors watching, and dangerous for both of us depending on how the officers feel about repeatedly coming over for this... So yes, I didn't like her to keep doing this for obvious reasons.

That particular night she had too much to  drink, and I decided to sleep on the couch... .Well that made her angry... .She says  "Ok, I am calling 911 for an escort"... .I was on tape saying "put the phone down, this is ridiculous. just leave". And yes, I briefly tried to grab her phone, but let her have it to continue her call.  I didn't even know she already dialed... As she would say it anytime I didn't do what she wanted me to...

Now throughout the course of our relationship, what the police do not know, is that I NEVER threatened her physically... NEVER pushed her... Ripped her clothes. NOTHING.

But she did all of the above to me DOZENS of times... .Do you see the problem?  I could not call the police on her for that, as I would probably be taken away... Yet if she calls she is the "innocent female victim who has this big mean man trying to grab the phone."  And before her calls I would say "You realize you are attacking me. And ripped my clothes. Why are you calling the cops?"  And she would say "I am the woman. You think they would take me to jail? hahah". So I had no idea what she would tell the police once they arrive.   So yes... .I used my "power" to grab the phone... I was wrong... The dozens of times she punched, kicked, ripped my clothes and threw things at me... .Well she is smaller so it's ok and I have no recourse.


What was it about on her end? Control. Drama. Enjoyed making a big scene. power... I have no idea...

Let me mentally work through this...

Man and wife:

A. If your wife is hitting you, just leave the premises. Calling 911 may land you in jail. Pushing her out of the way to leave can land you in jail.
B. She is smaller and weaker, and more men kill women, so men are hauled away to jail.
C. Domestic violence can spiral out of control and lead to murder.

Now your wife, being an adult, can leave anytime. Women leave men for many reasons, all the time... She has free will...

Adult and 5 year old:

A. Child is much smaller and much weaker. Child cannot hurt you at all.
B. If your child hits you, even though you outweigh him 10 to 1, you are 100% allowed to slap or spank him.  President Obama even said in a speech "More parents need to whoop their kids and their neighbors kids"
C. Children ARE TOTALLY CAPTIVE... They can legally get spanked every single day, and they CANNOT leave.

So why is spanking your wife against her will illegal?  Yet spanking a toddler against his will totally legal and applauded?  Remember she can leave... Your child cannot. She can hurt your physically. Your child cannot.

I am guessing the theory is it ok to impose your strength on a toddler, and if spanking isn't working, then maybe need to hit harder, right?  I am also thinking more parents kill children than vice versa... .Yet children do not have the right to live in a home without being assaulted...

It's also nice how we play with words... Assaulting a child is not assault or domestic violence... We can also call it "whooping" and all laugh.

And yes... I am thinking with the current climate, it definitely leads more women to be physically aggressive, because:

A. A real man wouldn't call the cops
B. if he calls the cops he will be the one arrested.

And this is a board dealing with BPD's.  I had to make many "executive" decisions to keep her safe. Taking our new Porsche to the ghetto to buy weed from total strangers was something I said no too. Her wanting to get wasted and drive around I would say no too.  And yes. Her thinking it was cute to call police over was another  Thing I would say no to.

If your 5 yr old dialed 911 when you would punish him would you take his phone? Or would you let him do it daily?  I am guessing you would use your size and strength to grab the phone. That was similar to dealing with her at times. Yet she was in an adult body.

And why wake me up to dial in front of me? Or pretend dial. I mean if you are in that much danger just leave.  Just dial in the other room.  It made no sense. 

Skip. This is what perhaps you are overlooking.

You and I might call them he police if we sense we are in danger. Or for help etc.

Not everyone is like you or I.

Many women call the police to win an argument.  For attention. For amusement. To have power. 

My ex wife would come back 30 minutes later LAUGHING about how a certain cop talked.  How ridiculous they were.  How silly the whole thing was.

So if I made a decision to "grab the phone" and ask her not to call, I have my reasons. I know her.  It was part of a game.  The blanket law is quite silly in that case.  I was right.  But legally it was not legal.

thats  the problem.  People envision some man beating a woman, she is struggling, man grabbing her. Life or death.  But that was far from ever the case.

It was her, in an arrogant tone "well I'm calling 911 for a police escort". Out of nowhere. 

And that was my point of the thread.  There are many gray areas when dealing with a BPD that can get you in trouble with the law.  

Sometimes it's a no win.

The wife got drunk and wanted to drive around by herself.  I am talking about half a bottle of scotch.

I took the car keys so she wouldn't.  She called for a "police escort".

Police told me that could be "kidnapping".  And not to again. What I should do is let her drive away then call police so she gets a dui.

Now if she kills herself or someone people will say "how did you let her drive. Why didn't you take her keys". "Well I was afraid of possibly getting in trouble with the law, so I let her go". It's complete insanity.

As for how that ended... .

Police actually let her drive away drunk!  I asked why.  I then said ok if something happens it is on you. They then pulled her over. She was almost triple the legal limit. They almost gave her a dui but somehow she got out of it. Then she returned the car.  Took an uber.  Then returned home.

Husband321, I understand what you have said all through this thread. I have read carefully. I have been encouraging you to consider other ways of looking at your beliefs and experiences.  Hope that wasn't frustrating.  *)

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