Understandable. Each relationship is a function of both people and their abilities to have a relationship. I don't know if it's different with a child- as a parent feels responsible for a child- but when the child is an adult, the parent role as caregiver evolves. It's still a special relationship but it takes both adults to maintain. In my situation, it was a mother with BPD- but she would blame me for any issues between us.

I wish I could have "made the relationship better"- but she did have mental health and it didn't seem to help and eventually, I had to accept that the relationhship with us was a function of her ability to have a relationship too and her BPD limited this.

I did try to do nice things for her but for some reason- she'd find something wrong that I did, or didn't do, and the attempts felt like failures. Sometimes even a small thing could be felt as a major transgression to her.

I didn't have any intentions of hurting her and I know you didn't have intentions of hurting your daughter. I couldn't change how she might feel.

However, you also have the right to not be subjected to daily blame and verbal abuse and I had decided this as well. I had to have boundaries on this. It doesn't feel right, it feels unatural. A mother-daughter relationship should not require this. I wish it was different and perhaps she wished it was different too but with immediate family, her BPD behaviors were at their most, and they were verbally and emotionally abusive. I also didn't want to continue to enable her behaviors.

Ultimately, if we don't see where change is possible, we do the best with what we have. You don't have to allow her to be verbally abusive to you. You can have boundaries. Unfortunatly this choice also involves their possible reactions to the boundaries. This can be scary. These aren't choices anyone wishes to make but if it's impacting our own emotional well being-  we may have to. Maybe my mother thought I was a bad daughter for doing so, but enabling her to be an abusive person wasn't being good to her either.

Are we perfect parents- or children? No, but we all do the best we can in our own circumstances. You've apologized. Tried to do better. I think that's the best anyone can do. It's up to your D now to accept the apology or not.

Hi there, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have used 'sole' to loosely here, so let me clarify.


I have done 3 hours on consultations, but not hired anyone on retainer or really shared the nitty gritty.


Thanks for this. My therapist has spoken at lengths about the impact my ex's behavior could have on our son long term (hes only 19 months right now), and is encouraging me to seek sole legal and only supervised visitation with my co-parent.  Zero unsupervised sleepovers as well.  My family lives out of state, I am here alone with my ex and her family.  My therapist also encourages me to not write off the possibility of ever moving away with our son... and says she hopes I can one day.  She says my ex is "textbook BPD" and she is very concerned.  She has, and reminds me often, offered to testify on my behalf as well.


wow I didn't even realize it read like that when I was writing this... those are actually words that my ex uses against me often.  For example, our son was scheduled to be with her 8am-4pm the other day. She left him alone with her parents all day from 10-3:30. At 3:30 she called and started shredding me for "taking our son away" and if I don't "come correct" she will "tell the whole family how I really am"... basically she felt guilty for not having spend her time with him, but she's incapable of communicating it like that, so she attacks and plays the victim. 

But to answer your question, I guess I do feel guilty because up until 4 months ago, I celebrated every good day and really really thought we could somehow still piece together a future. So its very unnatural for me to look beyond a good moment here and there and instead focus on the big picture.

Hi there happypossible;

It's wise of you to think through the pros and cons of parenting plans and custody arrangements. Good to hear you have a therapist you can talk to about all of this, too. Do you have a lawyer right now, as well?

One common misunderstanding that some people have is that "sole custody" has to do with how much time children spend with each parent. "If I have sole custody, then the kids will never see the other parent". That is not the case (though the terminology can vary state by state).

Custody generally has to do with legal decision making. In the past, it sometimes got confused with parenting time, which is the schedule for when the child is with each parent. You may hear outdated references like "whose custody weekend is it" and that is not necessarily accurate. That being said, there are still some states that differentiate between legal custody and physical custody, but physical custody generally means parenting time.

In our state, there is just "sole custody" and "joint custody", and those refer to legal decision making only. There is no relationship between a parent having sole custody, and that parent then also having more parenting time.

It is totally possible (in our state, for example) for one parent to have "sole custody" (tiebreaker on all legal decisions such as medical, dental, mental health, school, etc) and for both parents to have equal parenting time. It's also theoretically possible (though uncommon) for one parent to have "sole custody" and the other parent to have majority parenting time.

When your T suggests that you should pursue sole custody, is your T suggesting that you pursue sole legal custody? Or majority parenting time? Or both? (or something else?)

Generally speaking, you could have sole custody, but then try to work together with your ex to come up with a parenting plan that is as balanced as the two of you can agree on. (Not saying I would recommend that in your case, necessarily). The point is -- having sole legal custody has no relationship to "taking the child away from the other parent".

I wonder if getting some clarity on your T's suggestion could be helpful in coming up with a plan that's best for your child?

And I'm also curious if you have talked with your T about this feeling:


Is that guilt, or something else?

...

Anyway, there's a lot going on for you, and it's good that you're wanting to put your kid's well-being first.

Thank you, Wendy. I hear what you are saying. It is a relationship, I guess, but not a positive one.

Her view is that if I don't take every call, absorb her view of me, let her swear at me, and agree, there's going to be no relationship. If I don't support her (in some way that she won't define, but I'm supposed to guess), then I'm evil and she's done.

Today, again, I said, I hear how I've hurt you. I'm sorry that I don't show up the way you want all the time. I've been wishy washy and not always done what I promised, and I'm sorry. That's what she keeps saying, and there is some truth, so I apologized. Again.

And she says, well, it's too late. And then continues right on with how horrible I am. 

If she were a friend only, I would cut this off, but obviously, I love this kid and won't. But I don't recognize her or see how it's getting better with boundaries or validating emotions. Sorry - I'm just discouraged, I think.
 

Hi! I (F) am really confused.  My ex (F) and I have a son.  I want to do what’s right for him - not out of anger or punishment, but out of love and protection. My therapist thinks I should pursue sole custody. But I still find myself second-guessing that, even when so much of me knows it’s probably right.

I think I’ve been gaslit by my co-parent for so long that I can’t always tell what’s “normal” or what I’ve just adapted to. I keep thinking—what if this is just how it is? But I don’t want to gamble with my son’s safety or emotional development just to keep the peace.

Here are some of the realities I’m struggling to hold:

-She voluntarily gave up all sleepovers with him 2.5 months ago. since our seperation and prior to giving them up, she only did sleepovers at her parents house - never alone.

-She is incredibly verbally abusive toward me and frequently threatens to withhold access to our son or destroy our co-parenting relationship if I don’t comply. When she is upset she also starts asking for sleepovers again. When shes calm, she never mentions it. She knows its a trigger for me.

-When she becomes emotionally dysregulated, she hits herself, pulls her hair, falls to the floor, and pulls at her own teeth—in front of our toddler.

-She’s never taken care of him alone for more than one work day. Even during her "stay-at-home mom" time when we were together, she regularly relies on her parents or me to step in.

-She currently still has legal access to take him anywhere—but only chooses to when it’s to see friends or socialize, never to actually parent on her own.

-She smokes marijuana every day, all day. And she drives with him in the car while under the influence.

-She recently chased down a neighbor while driving with our son, got out of the car, and began screaming at them for their 'bad driving'.

-She refuses to pursue any real mental health treatment, despite having what her own cousin described as a “mental health binder an inch thick.”

-When she’s dysregulated, she becomes scorched earth. Everyone is the enemy. And in those moments, even our son seems like an inconvenience to her.

-She often posts him on social media as a way to appear like a doting mom, but in reality, she checks out when things get hard.

-Her own parents and cousin have encouraged me to seek custody, and all offered to testify. They see what I see.

I’m not trying to keep her from him. I don’t think that’s best unless it’s absolutely necessary. But I do think the structure should reflect what’s safe and what’s real.

Has anyone else been through something like this? How did you make the decision? What did the courts actually care about? I’d love insight from people who’ve been in the thick of this.

Seems wise, and in line with reality.

We have a very close friend (like a brother to me) who, about 8 or 9 years ago, started dating a woman with BPD. This was after I'd learned about BPD (my H's kids' mom has many traits) and found this site.

I shared resources with him, told him I was there to listen, and (probably) tried to caution/warn him based on what I'd seen from the kids' mom, but this was not an issue of information. I could give him great warnings and helpful information all day long but that wasn't the issue. The issue was that he is on his own timeline for working out his own relationship issues, and me informing him about the dangers I saw really had no impact on his emotional development or location on the timeline.

(Needless to say, that relationship imploded -- she'd blackmail him for money with suicide threats. Not great. I ended up helping him pack his stuff and move out of her place)

This past year we caught up with him again. He'd just gotten out of another relationship with another pwBPD, and he said, without going into details, that it was orders of magnitude worse than the last one. I didn't ask much more than that.

But that's what it took for him to finally be single, get into EMDR and a couple of other therapies, and really work on what it was in himself where he kept choosing disordered partners.

All that to say: all my warnings were not effective when I made them. I stopped warning him. He didn't need me to tell him when to get into serious therapy.

That doesn't mean it's easy to watch someone get into a dysfunctional relationship -- but then the real question is, how can I manage my own feelings about that, because I don't control what anyone else does, thinks, feels, or chooses, in this situation.

We just think "if only someone would warn him" but I also remember my H saying that nothing anyone said to him when he married his kids' mom would have dissuaded him. And, same with our friend -- I remember him saying something similar, about his first GFwBPD -- nothing anyone could have said or done would have changed his mind.

Our role as BPD-experienced onlookers isn't to "find the perfect words to warn them".

Our role is to use our improved relationship tools and skills with our friends to actively listen, to not invalidate, to support without enabling, to maintain connection, to listen without judgment, and to be there for them down the road.

Painful to watch, for sure... and an opportunity for us to practice our skills 

Sorry, I didn't mean to end my reply on a dour note.

Anyway, I've found that with the BPD and NPD in my life, progress doesn't happen in a straight line; rather there have been some baby steps forward and some setbacks, too.  I find that it has been helpful to think in terms of being "on track."  In other words, the direction of movement is more important than speed.  At first, positive change can be slow, but I looked for baby steps in the right direction.  An initial sign of staying on track would be to set and KEEP therapy appointments (i.e. not skipping therapy or dropping out of programs).  Another baby step might be improving one or two daily habits (like observing regular bedtimes, making the bed in the morning, eating at mealtimes, getting exercise, tending to plants or pets, etc.).  Then a baby step might be refraining from meltdowns/lashings out/self-harm, leading to a period of relative stabilization.  After stabilization, another baby step might involve the social sphere, like making a friend or engaging in a social endeavor from time to time.  Then I've seen some baby steps in the academic/professional sphere, like taking an online class or training program, or starting an easy part-time job.  I guess my point is to allow her to tackle one or two small changes at a time.  In the case of the BPD person in my life, once she made a few small changes, she built up her self-confidence and positive momentum, and bigger changes came seemingly quickly after that.  Now, I'm not saying she's conquered BPD completely; she still has high emotional reactivity and negative thinking patterns.  Sometimes temporary "derailments" happen, but the key is that they have been temporary.  I think she realizes now how to counteract those derailments before she spirals out of control into a pit of despair, because she doesn't want to go back there.  Sometimes we remind her, don't ruminate on past grievances, you did that miserable victim routine for years, and that has nothing to do with your life NOW, right?  Today, she's better able to reflect, rely on her DBT tools/strategies and get back "on track" much faster.  Does that make any sense?

That's a long-winded way of saying, thinking in terms of being "on track" might help you in your decisioning.  In other words, BOTH of you should be working towards a happier relationship, not just you.  That likely involves therapy in the short term, but it could take some time to find a therapist your wife trusts, and therapy might not last forever.  I like how NotWendy put it:  I need to she her commit to therapy and make some progress, and then in X months I'll reassess . . .

All my best to you.

To focus on a detail:


While DBT is one effective modality for BPD, there are others, as well. McLean Hospital's website discusses a couple of other treatments:


They also have a brief discussion of GPM (General Psychiatric Management) as another option.

So, I would maybe not frame the question as "DBT or nothing", as like Notwendy highlighted,


it's less about "how can I make her stick with DBT specifically" and more about "I want for her to be engaged with and trusting a competent therapist, of her own volition".

I'm curious if you've looked into DBT clinic guidelines and client rules? Here is an example -- might have some helpful insights about what's realistic to expect, as you are deciding what you are OK with in your life and relationship:

https://www.lenapevf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/DBT-FAQs.pdf

Ironically - that she is calling you daily- this is a relationship. If she really didn't want to have a relationship with you, she'd not call at all.

BPD affects the closest relationships the most. They act out most with people they feel safest with. It doesn't seem fair that the person the closest to her gets the worst of the behavior- but- that is you and her calling daily is her actually having a relationship with you.

It's hard to hear (and you don't have to endure verbal abuse) but the statements are on the level of a feeling dump. They aren't true- and so no reason to defend them. Try not to take them personally. It's not possible to reason with someone who is in the middle of this. It's an adult version of a toddler tantrum. The child wants a cookie for dinner, the parent says no, and the child has a tantrum, says things like "you are a poopy face". The parent response is to not give this more energy- and wait the tantrum out. Trying to reason with the child in the moment only escalates the situation.

The child still won't get the cookie. This is normal for a toddler who doesn't have emotional regulation skills and pwBPD may not have these either.

If she's still calling- that is a connection. It may not be the change you want to see in her but it is a relationship. You also have the right to have boundaries and not to be always available as someone to dump emotions on. You can also go on vacation and have your space. Your task is to hold on to the boundaries you have, even if she's making these statements. If something isn't true, you don't have to defend them. You can simply say "I understand you feel this way". If the conversation goes on too long- say "I love you honey but I need to go to an appointment, or there's someone at the door (or any excuse). Silence your phone and let her leave messages.

Hello everyone, hope you're all doing well.

Life's been pretty quiet since last post.
Got a new truck that was long overdue.

There has been recent subtle breadcrumb attempts, that I've ignored.

Still baffles me this occasionally happens still.