I walked that "honor your parents" line to the best I could, but when it seemed to require allowing what I considered to be emotional abuse to me or my children, that was a limit. I didn't expect my father to leave my mother, and he didn't. I know he did what he felt he needed to do.

However it invoved emotional hurt to other family members. It's not about anything in the past or judging them right or wrong. It's the dilemma of when choosing to appease them involves us collaborating with doing something that violates our own ethics- wherever we put that line.

I'm trying to avoid specific details, but when the family "rule" is to remain silent and comply, and doing so is against our own values- how does one make that choice?

To put this to an extreme example- if your wife insisted you rob a bank and you wanted to keep the peace and stand by her, would you do it? This is not something that happened but it's an example of where does one draw the line and refuse, even if it causes an extreme reaction.

On the family board, adult children struggle with the idea of going NC with a disordered parent even in the event of extreme abuse. It is a last resort when other attempts have failed. Yet on the parent board are numerous grieving mothers in law whose adult children have cut them off, seemingly for no fault on their part. I'm not judging right or wrong here but noting that there are hurtful consequences to choices like this.

If we're talking biblical, 1st Corinthians 13 describes how to love.  It starts with love is patient, love is kind and goes on to say love is not self-seeking, it keeps no record of wrongs, etc.

You might think, "But that's not how my mom loved us.  She was wrong!"  I agree completely.  But the definition on how to love doesn't take into account how we're treated, it's how we're supposed to love others regardless of how we're treated.  That doesn't mean to blindly accept abuse either...but we still lovingly step back or hold our tongues when needed (or try to at least...which I failed to do hundreds of times).

In other words, it's not about right and wrong.  Your dad did his best with the cards he was dealt.  In the end, he loved your mother more than he hated her illness and that's what guided him.  Was he wrong?  Well yes, because it was impossible for him to be right- either you or your mom was going to be upset with him.  I'm sure that he did the best he could in an impossible circumstance.

The 'leave your parents and cling to your spouse' is referring to a Biblical marriage where two become one under God.  That certainly doesn't describe every marriage in the world today because God is left out of the equation.  Even in the secular world though, it's seen as good practice to value your spouse over other relationships to have a long, happy marriage.  But once you mix in mental illness, it becomes infinitely more complicated.  That brings me back to 1st Corinthians 13 on how we're called to love...which is why I stayed.  My wife being "wrong" didn't justify me walking away in my mind.

Any family being torn apart is tragic, and I believe that's why the Bible is against divorce except in a few narrow circumstances (adultery, unbeliever walking away, abusive relationships).  Even in those cases though, the believer is supposed to try to reconcile before walking away.  In your specific situation, maybe it would have led to a better outcome since your dad would be more involved with your life and the grandkids lives.  That's our guess- we really don't know for sure.  But I can say for certain that your dad stayed to support your mom- not to hurt you or the grandkids.

I agree with you in terms of staying in a bad marriage just to stay- it's not healthy for anyone.  And I do think most marriages with BPD involved would reach that Biblical threshold of "abuse in the home" at some point.  Yet when you love someone and you've been codependent on them for years or decades, walking away is so incredibly difficult. 

Because of my faith, I never even considered it an option and honestly, I'd still be married to my ex today if she didn't walk away (while committing adultery, so my marriage literally met all three biblical criteria).  Sometimes, I still struggle with that, even though I'm remarried and have a fantastic life with an amazing woman who truly loves me for me.

One last Biblical verse you mentioned- honor thy mother and thy father.  That's hard when mom is mentally ill; I realize now that mine was too.  At times she was impossible to be around and would explode at the smallest things, but I still did my best to honor her and love her.  Did I get it right all the time?   Absolutely not.  But I did the best that I could and I definitely loved my mom. 

However, my mom thought the world of her grandkids and never tried to cause that rift (other than a few weeks here and there).  They were her entire world, especially my oldest who had BPD.  I was adopted, by the way, my mom couldn't have kids.  So to have BPD or mental illness in each generation around me was purely coincidence.  Or like a Freudian psychiatrist would say, I married my mother.  I don't know.

I think one of the difficulties with a pwBPD is that they are connected to other people in the family. So having boundaries with them can involve other people with whom we still want a close relationship with.

My father was a protector and enabler to my BPD mother. I never considered going NC with my mother. However, in college, I sought out counseling and the counselor brought up the topic of me doing that with BPD mother- because of the emotional effects on me of the relationship. So I tried it and it lasted one week, because any relationship with my father also included her and I wanted a relationship with him. My mother's FOO and some family friends also were "flying monkeys" to her.

I knew that the family expectation was compliance with BPD mother and I went along with this for the most part, and for many years, until going along with her wishes began to involve my adolescent children. In my family dynamics, I am not the golden child. My "value" to the family was based on my being useful to her, to do things for her- household tasks, emotional caretaking. She didn't look to my kids for that when they were younger but when they reached adolescence, I observed her enlisting my children into this role too. That was a bottom line for me. It isn't my children's jobs to be her emotional caretaker.

I didn't cut contact between her and my children but was protective during that contact. By that time, the kids also had a sense of discomfort around her. These were their natural boundaries. I wanted to respect that too. They had learned to treat her respectfully but I let them decide on how much contact they wanted with her. They were also old enough to understand mental illness and we discussed that. One of my kids didn't want contact with her at all, due to some experiences with her, another could handle some contact with her.

Young children have no choice when it comes to relationships with adults in the family. They are dependent on them. For older children, a relationship becomes more similar to one between two adults. If a child has a sense that someone is not a safe person for them to be close to- that is a protective boundary. We want to preserve this sense for them, so that they don't get into relationships with disordered people. If we force them to ignore it and force the relationship, we invalidate it.

Your children have no obligation to have a relationship with your sister. If there is contact in the context of a family event- like a wedding, or if they are all there together on a holiday with your parents- they can be expected to behave cordially. That's just being decent. But they aren't obligated to have contact with her otherwise if they don't want to.

Flying monkeys make having boundaries difficult. It's a part of the entire dynamics. Unfortunately, my having boundaries with BPD mother came with a cost. This is family dynamics- at first the effort is to get the person back into their previous role. If the person doesn't do that, they risk being "expelled" "exiled" from the unit.

My choice for a middle ground was lower contact  "LC". It may involve less contact but it also is the content of that contact. If we spoke, I kept the conversation light and cordial, and did not discuss personal or emotional information.

For me, this was a quieter, less dramatic choice to maintain personal boundaries while still having contact. How other family members responded to that was their choice. I remained cordial to the best of my abilities. My priority was to protect my children and not have them be partipants in this dynamic.

My best advice is to continue to stand up for what is important to you- your children, while remaining cordial to the FM in your family. If your mother brings up the topic of contact with your sister, politely state that you love her but this isn't something to discuss. Talking won't solve this for her. Remain calm and cordial but stand your ground. Unfortunately- they will react to this- but this is their choice to make. You can only control how you behave and how you treat other people.

It's hard to see your mother in distress, but also- to sacrifice your children's emotional well being to make her feel better is unreasonable. I never wanted to be in this position- but that was the result of this kind of dynamic.

I agree with CC43- I don't think being attractive causes mental illness or behavioral problems. I think if someone has BPD- being attractive is a way they get attention and their needs met.

If we look at genetic possibilty- we then ask how would these qualities "hot and crazy" prevail over time? I'm not using "crazy" to be derogatory towards someone with BPD or to women- using it in context of the meme. Just some ideas- I don't know for sure.

Evolution favors attractiveness. It's seen in many forms of life- there's a design to promote reproduction. Humans are more complex than this but there still is a favoring of attractiveness in people. So why isn't everyone attractive by now? Because other traits are favored too. For males, being a strong protector, hunter for food was also favored, independent of appearance. The gene pool is varied. Maybe- thinking back to before civilization, if a woman was disordered, they may not be protected as much by the tribe if they weren't pretty, but they'd keep the pretty one. Maybe if a woman was less attractive but a better nurturer, not disordered, they'd keep her too.

Humans have the distinction of having the ability to override instincts but we aren't wired differently from our ancient ancestors. Some of what makes up attraction is unconscious and instinctual. There's a woman who makes videos and she's a matchmaker for her own religion/culture but her comments about her matches have a wider application and she's got some interesting things to say. She discusses the most common preferences in her videos (while maintaining confidentiality for her applicants)   The choice to marry within a religion/culture is a big one but that's her only match pool so that one is taken care of. A requirement for her applicants is that they be honest about what they want. .

For the men, appearance is a main choice. They want younger than they are, and pretty. For the women, they want appearance but also being taller than they are, and a good provider. Not gold diggers- many have their own professions but someone who can provide security- this is more like wanting security and safety than materialistic. Sometimes it's a choice for the men too- that the woman is employed but they may also list that she'd be willing to cut back on work and raise the children.

She's honest about potentials for matching. A less attractive woman or less attractive man has more chances for a match if they have other qualities and preferences and are willing to be more flexible about them. For the men- if they are older, shorter, less attractive, having financial security increases their chances. For the women, they will have better chances with a less attractive man.

It may sound superficial to consider factors like looks but when it comes to attraction, these still are a part of what we call "chemistry". The preferences are different for men and women. Looks are high on the list for men. Looks are also high on the list for women, but so are other factors- height, and security. Maybe taller men were better protectors of the tribes in pre-civilized days? Also the ability to hunt for food would favor being taller and stronger?

Maybe this is why, a person who is disordered and attractive prevailed over time- as being attractive was a protective factor?

As to BPD/NPD- I don't think it's stable.  I think someone with NPD may get into a relationship with a BPD but then, once there's a split, it would end. Someone who doesn't have this combination might seem boring to them?

The last time I posted here was back in August - I had initiated a separation after my husband spoiled a major milestone for me. He accepted his diagnosis, got into therapy (finally consistently after at least 3 prior abandoned attempts), and mostly respected my boundaries. However, it should have been a sign to me when he moved back into our master bedroom while I was traveling (about 3 months later), without asking for my consent first.

He was on his best behavior, working hard, employing his DBT skills, remaining calm (while I realized that I was still carrying resentment and was snappier than I am proud of), and... I should have known... focusing all his attention on an upcoming lavish vacation that we would take together for almost 6 weeks. During the vacation, he was mostly great. I attribute this to the fact that he got to live what is essentially his dream life (driving high-end cars, smoking good quality cannabis every day, spending money like it was water, not worrying about work, and exploring new and interesting places with me - a way we've often connected in the past).

The moment we returned home, to the foreign country where we live, it all went to _____ again. I knew that it would. I knew that even with years of intensive therapy with the right therapist and a true commitment to change, pwBPD will still have splits and the idealization/devaluation phase. I wanted to see if the tools I had built up for preserving my own mental health during our separation were strong enough to survive until the split was over - relatively unscathed.

My tools were not enough. Because what I also hadn't realized was that he'd been slowly gaining legal and financial control over my life, pushing me into making decisions I normally woulnd't make or subversively not allowing me to pursue something I am really excited about because it takes my attention away from him. I have found this last bit to be the nail in the coffin for me. You can call me a million horrible names, and I can walk away or put on my noise canceling heaphones. But once you sabotage my business (in a way that's even sabotaging your own because you are so afraid of seeing me so excited), a red line has been crossed.

He made it about the fact that I took the separation - that I "bailed on the marriage" by taking the separation to try and finally break the cycle. It became clear to me that the only way this relationship will work is if I apologize profusely for taking the break (which I needed to try and heal from years of protracted emotional and verbal abuse) and give up my boundaries. To give up the last of my power.

So I've decided it's finally time to leave. And I really, really could use your advice.

We are two foreigners living in a foreign country. We got married in my home country, but don't reside there, and we never registered our marriage in our country of residence (where it turns out you need to get divorced). It turns out that I can say I intend to reside in Washington State (I could - I was born there and have friends there), and if I can get him to sign the papers where we fill out that we've come to an equal and fair agreement about how to divide our assets, I can submit online and the judge will grant the divorce after a 90-day cooling off period (luckily for me - he's not much of a researcher, so I doubt he'd even look into the cooling off period). I believe he would leave all of my US accounts alone - which would be in his best interest, or else he'll have to take on the credit card debt as well.

The other issue is that, in order for me to legally work in this country, I had to give up the shares in his company and become his employee. ALL of our assets here - most of which I paid for, except the office he built for himself - are owned under the company (because of the complicated foreign ownership rules in this country).

I've been told by multiple experts that I have no leg to stand on - I will just have to come to some sort of good faith agreement with him where he won't cancel my working visa (if he does, I fortunately have other options) and where he'll ideally buy me out of our house and the land that I bought (and potentially the future proceeds he'll get from subleasing it or selling it)... and I need to figure out a way how to do this without him simply saying no. It would be nice if he also paid me some additional money, given that I spent ALL of my money on supporting us (and the wedding) for the first four years of our relationship, but I'm not holding my breath. The one thing I have going in my favor is that he has a huge ego around his "principles" and "fairness" - so if I can somehow make a case that makes it seem like the fair thing to do, that it would make him look good to other people, he might go for it.

Does anyone know about any mediators who work internationally and aren't tied to the legal system? Maybe more like a coach or a therapist?

But my biggest concern and downright fear is finally having the difficult conversation to tell him it's over for real this time. I've read about and heard too many stories where a BPD partner was never violent... until they heard it was over.

So I'm plotting my escape. We live on a tiny island without cars, and I have WAY too much stuff. Plus we have cats - and you have to go through a complicated admin process moving them around in this country. I am planning to move to a much bigger island (which he hates), and, in fact, I've already found a place that I can move into on July 15. In the meantime, I am out of the house on a work trip. When I return, I will have 2 weeks to finish my work assignment... and then two weeks to somehow tell him and also safely pack up my stuff. My stuff isn't just stuff - it's stuff for my livelihood, family heirlooms, and my over-the-top collection of clothing that I wish I wasn't so attached to.

So how do I do this to minimize the risk of violence, pleading, rage, following me from room to room (we don't have locks)? He will notice when I start packing, but I can't imagine spending two weeks in the house with him once the process starts. I have asked some friends if they'd be willing to come "help" - but really be witnesses. They've agreed.

But also, I need to tell him because I need him to agree to the asset split (if he actually will give me anything) and agree to the divorce.

It's such a mess. Even though I understand how complex and time-consuming it can be in other countries, I desperately wish we lived in the US, where at least there are things like lawyers who can negotiate on your behalf or restraining orders or common law property states or numbers you can call if you're afraid for your life. There aren't even police stationed on the island where we live.

Any words of wisdom would be much appreciated - especially about the order of events in which I should safely do this with the best outcome.

Thank you!

In my humble opinion, it's similar to the observation that small dogs have earned the reputation for being nippy, yappy and reactive, more so than big dogs.  Maybe there's an innate, genetic disposition to feeling threatened, but my opinion is that it's a mostly a learned behavior.  Small dogs are more nippy, yappy and reactive BECAUSE they tend to get away with the behavior.  The owners might think, a bite, snarl or scratch from a little dog, well that's harmless, because the dog is so little and cute.  Over time, the bad behavior is not corrected, and it becomes ingrained.  Yet if a 100-pound dog snarled, bit or jumped onto a human, my bet is that they would be corrected immediately.  A bite from a Doberman could get it put down, after all.

My opinion is that the "hot girl" typically doesn't have to try very hard to get attention.  She gets attention, especially male attention, in spite of her petulance/meanness/rudeness/lying when she's lashing out.  Yet if a "plain girl" acted that way, well she'd probably not have many friends at all, let alone suitors.

I am certainly not implying that all hot girls are "crazy" as the meme references, and I'm not implying that plain girls are always nice.  Of course not.  I just think that attractive women are generally given more behavioral leeway, because they are attractive.  Think Mean Girls, who are idolized and popular, even though they're mean, spread nasty rumors and try to sabotage each other.

In a way, there's a genetic component to cuteness.  Babies are basically "engineered" to be cute, to "compel" parents to care for them, even if babies are extremely needy and annoying, with their high-pitched crying, fussiness and frequent need for feedings and diaper changes.  Babies can go from laughing to wailing in a split second, for no apparent reason, except general overwhelm.  But, given their cuteness, they seem to control the people around them, compelling them to bend over backwards to meet their daily needs.  It seems to me that some adults with BPD act in a similar fashion--they can start wailing in a split second for no apparent reason.  Would people really tolerate that behavior in an adult, unless she was very attractive?

I've seen some discussions here about what happens when two pwBPDs meet and form a relationship.  I think like a NPD-BPD, it's just not going to last very long, certainly not beyond the "honeymoon" phase when the relationship moves beyond "new and exciting" to "hey I have problems, and expect you to take care of them."

I just cannot see a pwNPD being willing to caretake the BPDer, so I think they'd both move on fairly quickly when they realize their "needs" are not going to be met.

In my own family and friends over the years I noticed some I suspected of having "issues" (though I knew nothing of BPD then) seemed to seek out the others in a way, but also would not take any grief from the others and those relationships never developed in any way.  It's almost like they could "recognize their own." 

I know this is a small sample size, but I have a couple aunts, and one of them was always the "black sheep" of the family... sometimes drinking too much and always picking fights at family events.  She'd seemingly make things up, or invent things to fight about that would leave everyone else confused as to where the hell she came up with what she was upset about.  No one knew anything about BPD, so there were always conjectures about what her deal was.  Anyways, after we were married BPDxw had a couple interactions with her, and my aunt was never very warm and fuzzy with her, more like "openly dismissive."  I thought for sure this would cause problems, yet, BPDxw never had much of an issue with her.  However, she did pick "blow-up heated arguments" with my nicer aunts on separate occasions.   

Did two "wolves in sheeps' clothing" know better than to pick on the other? 

On the topic of what predisposes someone to continuing a relationship with a pwBPD? I think anyone can be attracted to a pwBPD but not all relationships progress long term.

Being willing to appease and having poor boundaries is one aspect. FOO dynamics can influence this. My FOO was similar to Pook's in that, we saw things our mothers did that were wrong by our own values but we were not allowed to stand up for them, or speak of them. We were taught, from an early age, that our boundaries mattered less, for the sake of family harmony. What was "right" for our fathers may have taught us to abandon our own values and not have boundaries in relationships. Kids don't have the nuanced understanding of this decision like an adult would.

I saw some recent videos that discussed the adult parentified child in relationships and how we tend to dismiss our own feelings and regulate other people's feelings. We may end up in relationships with people who have poor emotional regulation skills. The relationships persist because we do the regulation for them. They gain a sense of comfort but it also keeps them from dealing with their own emotions and possibly learning better emotional regulation skills. If the parenfied partner then expresses their needs, these needs are dismissed, the partner can't meet them, and if they don't regulate their partners, the partners can then blow up in anger, or react in other ways.

The term BPD isn't ever used as it's not the only situation where someone has poor emotional regulation skills. However pwBPD have poor regulation skills and so the pairing between them and an adult parentified child may be more likely to progress.

People with autism also may not have strong emotional regulation skills for other reasons. They may be overwhelmed and react. So I think the pairing of BPD and autism may not be as frequent. I have also read that a NPD-BPD pair can be unstable.

FWIW, I have a good friend who is a psychiatrist, and he mentioned to me that there is a correlation between attractiveness and behavioral issues, or mental issues.  I don't recall if he specifically said "behavioral disorder" but it might have been something like that. 

It's become a meme online about "hot" women being also crazy, but apparently there's some truth to it. 

I am really curious as to whether it's a chicken or the egg thing: does lots of easy male attention bring out the worst in a woman?  Would the same thing happen with attractive men, who get too much female attention?  Or is there some other correlation here?  It seems like personality & physical appearance would be separate issues for a person, but over time, your self image definitely gets affected or warped by how others relate to you. 

Thank you for your responses.

I left this time around the end of March and when we were split up before, we never actually finalized the divorce or custody arrangement. I previously had a temporary protective order from CPS and she had supervised visits at a church scheduled for about a year. She talked me into meeting outside of the supervised arrangement and she put on the extra charm which eventually led to us getting back together and the court case was abandoned.

Now I have left again and did not call CPS or file for a protection order yet. Currently there is no custody arrangement an I have had both kids with me 100% of the time. I had gotten a DWI about 4 years ago, I missed court once it was filed two years later and she would always start a fight about me wanting to get it resolved. I think she liked that she could hold that over me since I could not renew my license at the time and it looked bad on my end and I think she wanted to keep it that way. Once I left I turned myself in to get that resolved so it’s no longer a warrant. 

When we left in March she would call the kids on FaceTime and try to inflate how great things are and she would go over the top with “acting” suddenly interested in them. My daughter even said she was performing and if we were there she would be the same angry mom we have come to know. I told her some people are just better from a distance.

That was when my daughter blocked her and they stopped answering her FaceTime calls. I didn’t know about it yet at the time and I didn’t want to completely cut off communication, but with how she can manipulate me I thought it was best that I at least avoided contact when possible. She texted me one evening and said “I haven’t heard from the kids in 48 hours, I’m calling the cops”. I promptly responded and said everyone is fine. She said, or I read it this way, in a snarky way “Oh too late I just got off the phone with them”.

The police showed up and said that she had called a welfare check and mentioned several times that I have a warrant, so she was trying to get me arrested out of spite. They said everything looked fine and they advised me to get a protective order against her.

After that I blocked her too, I didn’t want her to have that kind of control over my life and she can call the police if she wants, I am taking care of everything I need to. I feel I should get a protective order so at least something more recent is documented.