thanks forever dad. everything you say makes perfect sense.

however I still want her back. the no legal no contact ends in 5 weeks from now. im unsure how to proceed.

It sounds like it went well. How your son reacts isn't a measurement of how well you presented the boundary. He was going to react the way he did.

It's about how we manage our own feelings while they are reacting, but we are going to have feelings too.

That you did better is that, instead of it all being automatic and escalating- you had more awareness of your feelings and responses and didn't escalate the situation as much as before by reacting. And that you did say what you needed to say.

Now, going forward is action- stick to what you said about the limit to your money. We have to hold to what we say, or it loses it's meaning.

I think you did well, and with practice, saying "no" can get better. It may never get easy though. We just learn that sometimes it's what we need to say.

I struggled with this too.  I called it the “push-pull”.  Just know that the guilt we feel is their secret weapon to draw us back in.  Guilt is a tool of manipulation in my opinion.  When the guilt gets intense, that’s the time to really focus on taking care of yourself. For me it was getting into nature, being physically active, or having a hot bath. If you can get yourself through those periods where the guilt feelings are most intense (without being pulled back in by the guilt) it gets easier. Holding the boundaries you’ve set for yourself is key.

My mother passed away last January.  I am still recovering.  She’s still in every cell in my body including my stomach lining and my hollow bones and my nervous system.  You’re not alone with the guilt feelings.  This isn’t the relationship we want with our mother, and it’s hard to reconcile because we’re good people who are caring.  And they’re smart enough to know that and pull on our emotional strings to use our goodness against us as a tool called guilt.

I will second all this.  My mom’s need for control showed up in her medications. She would deny the diagnosis of multiple experts and refused the medication that would help her.  Until a friend’s husband was prescribed the same medication and then she decided she had the disease after all and started taking the medication.  She was noncompliant with eye medication that resulted in near total loss of vision in one eye.   There’s so many more examples but the point is that it’s about control, and their decisions are based on their emotions and there is no rational thinking involved.

As for the crazy driving behavior, I would personally change all my driving patterns so that my schedule wasn’t predictable. For borderlines, information is power and the less they know about you and your schedules the better.  I’m curious if you think there might be less crossing of the paths if your husband drove a different route to work every day.  Personally I’d be taking the back alleys to be invisible. 

In a different way, I modified my parking habits so mom’s friends wouldn’t recognize my vehicle at a new workplace.  She never did learn I had a new job - that was 3 years ago.

It’s remarkable the lengths we can go to, so as to adapt to their behavior in ways that make us feel safer.

I used to document everything.  We had a book just for documenting her behaviors, and our responses.  I recorded her phone conversations, kept emails and text messages etc.  Just to 1) assure myself it wasn’t me when she gaslit me and so that I could never minimize her behavior 2) to protect myself with “insurance “ in the event I ever needed “evidence” in the future.   

One shouldn’t have to do this, but some of us are not blessed with rational nurturing reasonable parents. 

My mother passed away in January at the age of 89.  I concur with what others have said about the behaviors amplifying and worsening with age. 

NotWendy, Thank you for the time you put into helping me  understand setting boundaries with a pwbpd. I do remember the hole poem. I stepped into the hole today. Ugh! I felt like I could  manage the fallout using validation and empathy, as much as I knew of them.. Since I consistently gave my son money whenever he asked (it has been less since December since he's working full time) I felt he expected it and I thought I was being kind in giving him a heads up. Since I freely gave whatever asked , I told him I had X dollars if he needed it at but I didn't have any other available funds I could give after that. He was hurt, angry, felt shame.... He let loose and let me know loudly what he thought about me. He didn't call me names which was great , he punched his fridge, thankfully not as hard as he wanted to ...He said all he ever wanted was my advice not to feel this way anymore. That he hated asking for money, that he'd pay his own therapy, that he couldn't afford to pay for therapy, that he 'would' ask me for money again and I'd just have to say no.That now ho has to feel bad about upsetting me, that he doesn't have it in him to go through these episodes with me. So much more, lots of accusing and blaming... I tried to validate and be empathetic- I found myself trying to explain and justify, apologize., or just being quiet letting him rant. I wasn't sure if it was better to leave or stay.
My son calmed down and started to ask me questions about me life and we chatted about family, and we hugged before I left, which he initiated. He said he didn't want to do what we did again but that I could call or come by anytime.
On one hand going through this with the little knowledge of bpd that I had before talking with my son shows me I need to really work to understand tools to take care of myself and not add fuel to already hot coals. It also reinforces my acceptance of my son's illness. And I see how my attempts to advice, and suggest/manipulate my son to seek dbt therapy, to  make wise decisions in paying bills and not overspend are not working or respectful of how he lives his life. Today was painful, but I feel a little wiser and not so afraid of his reactions.  Anyway,  thanks for the support and wise advice.

What you're looking at are the leaves on the trees which can vary in many ways.  If you step back you will see the forest.  Translation: Individual actions and reactions may provide indications but the bigger picture is more important for long term success, or not.  That's my observation... Does it matter that much about the details, since mental health issues (PDs) influence the big picture?

Here is a factoid that is admittedly somewhat general yet in most cases true:

• You cannot "fix" her since BPD traits make it hard for her to set aside the baggage of the past relationship history
• For her to want to recover a reasonably normal mental health perspective that would make a healthy relationship possible she would have to want to truly change and most can't do it without long term therapy that is diligently applied in life and perceptions

The first separation was non-violent.  The second separation was violent and resulted in legal repercussions for both of you.  If you try again - without her seeking and continuing serious long term therapy - then future separations may easily be much worse, emotionally, legally, financially.

Years ago, you weren't aware of the risks, now you are.  There's a saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

There's also the old story of the frog and the scorpion.  The scorpion wants to cross the stream and promises not to harm the frog for safe passage across the stream.  Once across, the scorpion stings the frog and the frog cries, "But you promised!"  And the scorpion replies, "You knew I was a scorpion."

In time the court is likely to let the no-contact order expire.  Will she have learned from this?  Will you have learned from this?  You know she has serious relationship issues.  Sadly, as much as we wish it were otherwise, we can't live other people's lives.  To a large extent, they will do what they will do.  On the other hand, you have control of your own life, your decisions, the paths you choose.

 I'm not looking for reassurance or validation. I'm trying to understand what is most likely happening psychologically.

My ex and I were together for just over 5 years.
She was 20 when we met and 26 when we separated. Throughout most of that time I was effectively her primary attachment figure. We lived together, travelled together, built a life together and had a very intense bond. The relationship also had a Dom-sub dynamic where I was generally the provider, protector and more emotionally stable partner.

She has what I would describe as quiet/internalised BPD rather than the more outwardly explosive presentation. Her struggles seemed to revolve around shame, fear of abandonment, favourite-person attachments, splitting, identity issues, validation seeking and emotional avoidance.

About a year ago the relationship suffered a major rupture. She became emotionally attached to another man who appeared to become her new favourite person. There was lying, emotional betrayal and behaviour that caused significant damage to trust. We separated.
What makes this situation more confusing is that after several months apart I wrote her a deeply personal book. To my surprise she came back.

When she returned she was extremely emotional. She apologised repeatedly, told me she loved me, admitted she had made huge mistakes and eventually moved back in with me. For a period of time it genuinely felt like we had overcome something impossible.
However, the reconciliation was difficult.
More information emerged about what had happened during the separation. My trust had been badly damaged. Arguments became more frequent. Her shame appeared enormous. There were ongoing issues around validation seeking, emotional regulation and accountability.

One important point: despite all the emotional turmoil, there had never been physical violence throughout the previous five years of our relationship.

A physical incident occurred during the final breakdown of the relationship and was completely out of character compared to the majority of our time together.

Approximately two months ago the relationship ended following a serious argument. She became physically aggressive during the conflict. I left the house because I felt the situation was escalating. I then made the stupid decision to drive after drinking and was arrested for drink driving. When police saw injuries on me and asked what had happened, the situation escalated further and she was subsequently arrested and removed from the house.
Because of the legal situation she currently cannot contact me.
I have not seen or spoken to her since.

A few weeks ago I sent her an 8-minute video. The video was calm, reflective and compassionate. I apologised for my own part in the relationship problems, told her I still cared deeply about her, acknowledged the good and bad in both of us and made it clear there was no hatred from my side.
I also told her that if she ever wanted me to call her one day when everything had settled down, she could simply change her WhatsApp profile picture as a signal.

She watched the video.
Shortly afterwards she removed her WhatsApp profile picture entirely.
She didn't replace it with another picture.
She simply removed it.
Because she currently cannot contact me, I have no way of knowing whether that meant anything or not.

Since then she has remained very active on social media.
Recent content has included:

A selfie with "Miss me?" written on it.
Reposts about being misunderstood or hurt.
BPD-related reposts.
Posts saying things like "I've got a new life."
Multiple dancing/thirst-trap style TikToks.
Selfies in new outfits.
Songs about exes and relationships.
General validation-seeking content.

I fully recognise that social media is a poor source of information, but I'm struggling to know whether I am seeing genuine patterns or simply projecting because I still love her.
The contradiction I can't reconcile is this:
On one hand:
We were together over 5 years.
I was her primary attachment figure through most of her adult life.
She previously left and later came back.
She apologised deeply during the reconciliation.
She told me she loved me.
She has my name tattooed on her body.
We shared a life together.
On the other hand:
There was significant betrayal.
Serious trust damage.
The ending was traumatic.
There is now complete silence.

Her online behaviour often appears attention-seeking, contradictory and confusing.
My questions are:

How often do you see shame rather than lack of love prevent someone with BPD from reaching out?

Have you seen people genuinely avoid someone they still loved because they believed they had caused too much damage?

If somebody was a primary attachment figure for 5+ years, how quickly does that attachment typically fade?

How much weight would you place on social media behaviour in situations like this?

Does removing the WhatsApp picture after watching the video sound potentially meaningful, or is that exactly the type of thing partners tend to overanalyse?

If you were advising someone in my position, would you maintain complete silence until restrictions end, or take a different approach?

One final thing:

I am aware that part of me still wants her back despite everything that happened. Another part of me knows the relationship was unhealthy and that I would probably have far more peace without it. Those two sides of me are currently at war with each other.

I'm interested in honest analysis, even if the answer is that I'm reading too much into things or asking the wrong questions.vAnd the best advice you can give me to reconcile.

Thank you I advance

Another lesson we may face is how to handle seeking Closure of the failed relationship.  Sadly, people with BPD traits (pwBPD) seldom can grant us the Closure we may seek.  It's part of their dysfunctional perceptions and actions, reactions and overreactions.

So how to handle this?  You may have to Gift yourself Closure.  Most of us, once the relationship is undone and there are no remaining concerns such as shared children (long term custody and parenting complications), find that afterward there is no practical way to have a continuing post-relationship contact or friendship.

This was my situation as well.

I also got the sense that if BPD mother was speaking to me nicely - it was because she wanted something. I could also see that her social persona was her "masking". I don't think it's fair to someone with BPD to want them to be in their mask.  it's not the whole of who they are.  I didn't want to tolerate hurtful behavior either but the mask wasn't something I felt comfortable with.

I tried to maintain a middle of the road response with her. "Medium chill"- not reacting too much to whatever mood she was in- but trying to stay calm.

Think of it this way- if our mood is based on theirs, if when they are in a good mood- we are in one too, and then it changes when theirs changes- that's the phenomenon sometimes called "co-dependency" as our own mood is dependent on theirs.

However, each person is an individual with our own feelings- someone else's mood is theirs, ours is ours. So we don't have to be in a bad mood if they are- and vice versa.

Does it need to be done immediately? I found that stating a boundary - saying I will not do something in the future or anymore- directly to my mother was perceived by her as a personal attack. She would react intensely and become very mean and verbally attack. BPD mother did not like boundaries.

This didn't mean not having boundaries or not communcating them, but how it was done made a difference- not in her compliance with them but with my own ability to withstand her reaction and also- for her, if she wanted something, in the moment, she wanted it immediately, so doing this in the moment still caused a reaction but it wasn't something "in the future" that became a long argument over.

Boundaries are basically actions- and they can be spoken, but long discussions and reasons - that just adds to the drama. A "no" is a boundary.

Compare with the cookie example. How effective is it to say to your toddler at breakfast "I will no longer let you have cookies for dinner". He's not asking in the moment and it makes no sense to him at the time- he just thinks you are being mean.

Or- it's dinner time, he's hungry, he asks for a cookie and you say "no, dinner is in 5 minutes, and so no cookies right before dinner".  Child will still tantrum but it's in the moment that he learns.

With your son- if he's not asking for money in the moment- and you bring it up- it is sure to begin a circular argument and multiple calls trying to get you to change your mind. It's also not necessary to do this if he's not asking for money at the time.

It also depends on how he expects it. If he asks when he wants some, saying no in the moment is when to say no. If you are providing a regular amount- something he expects, like for rent, or food, I think it's fair to provide a plan for stopping some time in the future, to give him time to adjust if he's been relying on it.

The less you explain yourself, the better. He's not going to like what you say either way. An example of a regular payment "Son, your father and I can not afford to do this, and so, we will continue this for one more month, but after this we will no longer be paying $X a month. This way he has time to work more hours, adjust his budget, or whatever he chooses.

For in the moment requests- do this at the time. "Mom, I need some money for ......" Son, your father and I can not afford to do this, so no, we won't be able to".

These statements are best said using "I" sentences. Do not say "you need to budget better" or any "you" words. The bottom line is- you are retired, the money you have is for your own needs. He's going to react, say mean things, but he isn't entitled to his parents' money. Do not go into a long discussion over this.

Also, you will need to be able to manage your own feelings during his reaction. I once had to say a "no" to BPD mother - not over money, but another reason, and it was something I was nervous about, but it had to be said. I didn't intend or want to hurt her, it wasn't something I could agree to.

 I practiced saying this with a therapist. I wrote down what to say and how to say it. BPD mother responded as expected. She demanded an explanation and I began to do that, automatically. However, an explanation was not needed, she already knew why. It would only lead to a drama circular argument and her being angry. Still, it was automatic to comply with her request for that.

Then she began to argue the explanation and I caught myself in the dynamics- this is the circular argument, the JADE, the no win conversation and so stopped, " it's a no, I can't do that" - she continued to ask for an explanation, until she realized I wasn't going to go into a circular argument with her.

You might recall this story from 12 steps but it's also seen in other contexts.
https://people-shift.com/articles/an-autobiography-in-five-short-chapters-portia-nelsons-poem-about-change/

I don't know about the whole website- I just looked for the poem. In context of your situation, the "hole" isn't just about giving money- it's getting into the circular argument over it with your son, which is emotionally stressful. We get into this automatically- we don't see the hole we fell into- but we can work on seeing it, getting out of it, and then eventually doing something different. The hole is about ourselves and how we are part of the dynamic.

In my situation with my mother- it was "chaper III" I began to get into the discussion, saw what I was doing, got out of it. If you need to have the discussion with your son right away, then it needs to be done but if not, consider doing some planning with your therapist on how you can avoid your "holes" when you do.