Back in 2023, before you had your second child, your wife filled out divorce papers, so to some extent she's been aware of the divorce aspect for quite some time.

I will mention the custody and parenting aspects in my country.  Most states seem to separate the legal custody aspect of a divorce as a somewhat separate category from the co-parenting schedule.  Should you divorce, the "less bad" outcome would be for the reasonably normal parent to have as much authority during and after the divorce.  (Not that the disordered parent would agree, of course.)

For example, your oldest child will soon be in school, if not already in preschool or daycare.  The course of wisdom as the reasonably normal parent is to limit potential irrational chaos and obstruction in future years by seeking as much legal status and as possible from the very start of the legal process.  If you try to appease by relinquishing custodial Decision Making to your possible ex, then it will almost certainly be exceedingly difficult to fix it later.

Since your spouse may move multiple times during or after a separation/divorce - as mine did - that may impact your employment or your own future life decisions.  However, if you had some sort of "Residential Parent status for schooling" then your ex would be limited in how far away from you she could move with the children.  (Yes, some members here had ex-spouses who purposely moved far away in order to limit their parenting time and options.)

I don't see this book listed in our directory for our Books board.  Though the summary about this book does not mention ketamine and the author's credentials aren't listed, this short term ketamine therapy might be a good resource to consider to lead into DBT therapy, especially for those with suicidal ideation due to BPD or depression.  Perhaps you can work with our ambassadors or staff to compose a topic there and then the book might be added to our alphabetical book directory there?

https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/

My wife has been pushing for a move many hundred of kilometers away, because she has some support from her relatives there and has not managed to build / maintain a social life where we live now. Earlier it was us thinking about moving and discussing potential locations, then quite suddenly, it feels like, it was "I will move to where my relatives live no matter what you say, and the only alternative is divorce". No chance for any discussion.

In February I finally gathered my courage and told her that with options like that, I'd rather just divorce. Given how much we argue and in how unhealthy ways, it feels like the best choice considering our children (1 and 4) anyway.
I would not block the children from moving (since I recognize without me she really does need her relatives) which means I'll end up moving as well, I just don't won't to do it with her. 

She was shocked, and also tells me it was never meant as an ultimatum. She only meant she doesn't believe in long distance marraige, and was too scared by the prospect of me trying to stop her to manage a proper discussion. She then insisted on some heart-to-heart discussions ("since I always demand we should talk") and to be honest, actually listened for the first time in I don't know how long. Then she told me she got some ground breaking insights from what I told her, and that she now was able to see me in a more positive light, making it possible to work on some of our long standing issues.

I was more than a little skeptic, but somehow against my better knowledge ended up seeing where it would go. All the while the move in June creeping closer.
So she's been a lot nicer to me when things are fine. It feels really weird, actually being touched by her and so on.

However, it seems when things are not fine, things have not changed that much. End of April, start of May we had three weeks with about as many days with arguments as without. One of these arguments came from a parenting situation in which I repeatedly asked her to stop what she was doing, and she didn't even acknowledge I was talking to her, and I brought it up later and she showed no sign of understanding why I was bothered. The other we had in the morning in front of the children, it was nastyish, she even involved the older one (in a minor way only, but still a huge no-no), and that child went to daycare in tears. She told me the child had told her later it was about something unrelated, which I guess is possible... But yeah, all in all I don't think the situation has dramatically changed nor is it tolerable.

So I told her last week I think we better go back to moving to separate addresses. And she has gone back to convincing me it's a bad idea. She even tried to kiss me the other day, first time in four years I think.

I am trying to hang on to the main idea. I've made up my mind and I don't have to change it, no matter what anyone says or whatever happens.
I am really worried what happens when she realizes I will stick to my decision.
I am worried she's not stable and safe enough for the children.
I fear how hard is she going to make coparenting - she has expressed the idea that children moving between two homes is harmful to them, so she'll let that happen "over her dead body" only - concerning enough for the high-conflict outlook, even if not considering her threats of suicide and child murder from two, three years ago
I fear she needs to make sure the children know I am the bad guy and her life is ruined because of me
I worry I do a disservice to the children making them go through move, change of daycare and parents divorcing all at the same time
In fact, I worry I do them harm allowing the move in the first place

I am hopeful about Ketamine too.

Ketamine isn't used for only one condition.  It's also used for anesthesia. So if it helps pwBPD - it doesn't mean they don't have BPD.

Depression and BPD can co-exist but they can exist on their own and have differences too.

I think more research is needed to confirm this but it's being studied now. This is a recent article I found.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11070208/

Thank you both. I really appreciate the advice and input.

PeteWitsend, I've been using the "I would love for you to be there, but I also understand and support you if you'd rather not" type of response almost since our relationship began. Most of the time, he says he wants to go. Then he'll get anxious about an event for days (or even weeks) before. And then, afterward, he'll find something someone said or did (or didn't say) that he'll interpret as a sign they hate him.

We've had many, many conversations about my family. When he's sober and calm, he talks about it all rationally. He's admitted that he really wants my family to like him and he wants to feel like he's a part. But he doesn't feel it. He's an introvert and is, by his own admission, intimidated. My family are actually introverted as well, so they get it and they try to give him space while also speaking to him and being nice.

My T has suggested that when we're arguing and he says stuff that's unfair or untrue, just letting it go and saying something like "What do you want me to say?" I know defending doesn't help, so that's something I'll work on. Definitely goes against my nature, as my first instinct when hearing something unfair or untrue is to argue. But I know it doesn't help. Regardless, I'm just so tired of it being an issue and dreading it getting worse with my parents so close.

I don't mean to say you want him back, but you seem to still be carrying a flame for him in some way.  I'm inferring that because of the amount of attention you seem to have given him as a result of the interaction you had. 

And this next part:


If I understand you correctly, considering him "unwell" is a choice you're making. I don't know that I'd use that word to describe someone who's BPD.  It's a personality disorder.  This is who they are.  It's not like getting over the flu, and there's nothing you can do about that.  You can't help him see that he's wrong, and/or why it's not okay to lie to others like he does. 

I think that's why a lot of people leave these relationships still hung up on their feelings; it seems so wrong that people behave like this, and if we could just show them the error of their ways, then they could recognize and appreciate us, and become who we want them to be.  Or at least reaffirm our faith in humanity, that liars and frauds can't just move among us indefinitely without facing some accountability.  But they're not sick; their thinking may be disordered, and this may be due in some part to genetics and in some part possibly to childhood trauma, but they are adults who've learned to use their behavior to get what they want and manipulate others.  It's not as innocent as you seem to want to believe.

The Frog and the Scorpion parable is applicable here. 

Maybe you're just understandably frustrated he could continue to blatantly lie to you, but if you can see these things with your mom, and not with him, that made me think you're still holding out so hope you can "change him." 

You mentioned he left his original country.  In my case, BPDxw did too, for reasons that are pretty obvious in hindsight: she was escaping a country where everyone knew "her type," and could reinvent herself, and find new people who were - if not completely gullible - unacquainted with people like her she could take advantage of. 

I think it's telling you offered him an opportunity to visit his home country and he declined.  And again, his feelings as expressed to you are not genuine.  He was supposedly homesick, but really this was just something he could use to evoke some sympathy for him.  He wants to kill himself but never does.  He's a lonely immigrant, but won't go home.  You, hoping against all evidence he will admit he was at fault in the way the relationship ended, but this is "controlling him."

I am wondering if there is an overlap between BPD and severe depression, because I think ketamine targets intransigent and deep depression. There are other things currently used for bipolar I think?

I'm just wondering if someone responds really well to ketamine, whether an original diagnosis of BPD was correct - or whether the core issue was severe depression?

There is so much overlap between BPD and other conditions it can be hard to identify the core issue for diagnosis.

But whatever the condition, such a successful response to ketamine is a great outcome!

Hi Bpdstinks,

I believe my mother must have something too. My elder sibling has always been the Favourite Person/golden child" and can do no wrong. I was always closer to my father growing up and and I felt she was jealous of our relationship and hated me for it. I think she despised our relationship because she wanted her children to only show her love. My younger siblings have never been close to her either.

Now my mother has rewritten my childhood and said  that I was a terrible child to raise!!!!!...... I was a shy quiet homebody. A bookworm who went to school regularly (even getting an award for my attendance) A good student, had hobbies, no interest in boys until I was late in my teens, never in trouble outside of the home...I was a total opposite of udd!!!!....yet my mother has always spoken up for udd and made excuses for her bad behaviour and they still have a "close relationship",   Udd  has also cut my mother off over the years if she has dared to confront her about anything  and then over time udd will just reappear again with no questions asked but i dont feel that it is a genuine relationship and that they are not truly being themselves when they are together. My guess would be that my mother has NPD and Udd has Bpd/Npd. They must get something from each other .I just dont know what it is and I cant work it out

hotchip,

A pwBPD's intense emotions and distortion of reality can cause a  normal friend or family member to doubt reality. It's happened to all of us. It takes a lot of strength and fortitude to step back from it and distance ourselves.  Having your mother threaten you as a child is scary. I think trying to appease your mother is a very normal reaction to try make her stop and control the situation to stay safe.

 I've overcompensated by people pleasing and putting someone else's wants first to stop problems and restore peace. My late mother was dBPD and raged at me for being a less than ideal child. I tried to be better but it was never good enough. I'd be in tears and frustrated not knowing what to do to be better to avoid her rage. I thought I was a very nice and pleasant child.

I suffer from codependency as a result of my childhood. There is a free 12 step program called Codependents Anonymous which has online and in person meetings. I've been to meetings and found them helpful.

While you're healing, you may want to avoid places where you'd run into your ex. If you do, keep conversations short and polite avoiding anything personal. You might want to avoid this friend group where your ex is smearing you to. It's too much pressure to wonder if they believe you or him. They may not be healthy if they don't see your ex as disordered.

Both of these men who are abusive seem to be avoiding me. I noticed my disordered neighbor also avoiding me. All three of these people seem like fraidy cats to me. I think they are more afraid of me than I am of them when I set firm boundaries.

The key here is to work on my bad habit of letting abusive comments and demands just slide and to continue to be nice to these people because I do not like to confront people, to seem mean.

I agree with TelHill that certain men will bother a woman then disappear elsewhere when not getting results. A few months ago, there was a man being too friendly to me. The first time he said hello to me I responded in embarrassment because I thought I actually knew him and  had forgotten him. Then I realized I have an unusually fine memory for people and rarely forget anybody. After that I ignored his comments and attempts to get my attention. He was always well dressed and fairly good looking for his age. On day I walked by him as he was getting out of his car. His car was full of clothes and I am sure he was living there. He did not bother me after that, like he had been found out.