St Dymphna, welcome!  You are safe here.    You've come to a place where we all have someone like your mom in our life, so we "get it". You are not alone.

First, you are not your mom.  Just the fact that you have the insight to think about this shows how different you are from her.  Do you think your mom ever questions her own behavior?

One thing I learned on this board when I landed here some years ago, was that it was okay to think my own thoughts, and feel my own feelings.  They didn't have to (and shouldn't) mirror my mother's. When I look back on it now, it was strange that I didn't know that.  But my mother raised me to be emotionally enmeshed with her, and it took a long time to figure out how to untangle that.

Second, you are reflecting on this.  Your mom likely doesn't have the capacity to reflect.  While I'm no psychiatrist, my experience with my uBPD mom, reading a ton of books, doing my own research, and being on this board since 2018, makes me think it's quite uncommon for persons with BPD to "reflect".  Personally, I believe "reflection" is one of the key tools that can protect us from being like them. You appear to be reflecting.

I think almost all of us "nons" are "afraid" of being like our mom's.  To look at it another way, reflection is probably the very thing that protects us from becoming "mini-thems".  We desire to  NOT be like them, perhaps we catch ourselves sometimes, but then we take ACTION to do things differently.  Inotherwords, we grow.  This is key.  We work on ourselves.

I love it that you are 22.  I didn't reach the end of my rope with my mom until I was in my 50's.  Call me slow.  Call me easily manipulated.  Call me a caretaker. Call me foolish.  I actually have a lot of hope for you because you are onto this while you are still forming your adult values and developing your adult sense of self.  Good for you!

You are also clearly resourceful because you found us!  And you are a problem solver.  You are solutions based and looking for support to help navigate a complex problem. Your mom on the other hand is a problem maker by the sounds of it.

Does that help? Your mom likely wants to believe you are like her.  If this is the case, you don't have to believe it.  Does this fit?

I want to address this because it's something that has come up on this board at other times over the years.  Many of us can relate.  It seems like they "pretend" that they don't remember.  This may be true.  It may be true sometimes.  But I also wonder if a person who is raging or otherwise under 100% control of their emotional brain and 0% of their rational brain may have distorted memories, or a bit of amnesia because of the mental state they were in.  I don't know. Or maybe, they just "deny" because they can't regulate their own deep shame, or reflect and learn from it to avoid repeating the behavior in the future. In the end, it might not matter why they don't remember it.  The important thing for us is to realize is this is who they are, and they are unlikely to change, and so...what do WE have to do or change or acknowledge ourselves to navigate this dysfunction?  One time when my mom was raging at me at her house, I picked up my shoes and walked out the front door, closed the door, and went to my car (didn't even take the time to put my shoes on).  She opened the door again and kept yelling at me across her driveway.  The point is I didn't try to reason with her, or defend myself, I took action, and left the abuse.  The best way to teach a person, is to let them learn through natural consequences.  She lost the audience that was giving her attention.  She lost the opportunity to vent.  She lost her daughter, and the ability to have a relationship that day.  Some people are so dysfunctional, we just have to learn new skills (eg unspoken boundaries) to navigate our lives with them.

You definitely did not do anything wrong by posting here.  Just like there's nothing wrong with joining an Al-Anon group, and there's nothing wrong with having a counsellor.  You are trying to solve a problem.  How can there be anything wrong with that? 

My question is: what makes you feel like there could be something wrong with that?  Where do you think that could be coming from?

Post as often as you like.  Take care

I always say my mom refused therapy including when my father or I offered (at different times) to go together with her.  This is true over her lifetime, but there was a one time exception...

I cannot say exactly what happened because I was not there. But she came back from her counselling session ranting and raving and saying terrible things about the counsellor (whom I happened to know but mom didn't know that) including what a terrible person she was and how she shouldn't be a counsellor, and how  mom would never ever see another counsellor again in her life after that...blah blah blah. Typical BPD reaction.  This counsellor is actually an exceptional person, and I've known her for many years.  It's a small town, and I've lived here almost all my life and through my career, I also know a lot of people and families.  According to mom, the counsellor told her she could get all the support she needed from her daughter, and she didn't need a counsellor.  This was such BS, it's laughable! It was mom telling me what she wanted me to hear, but lying and saying the counsellor had said it.  They twist everything. And boy, she laid the pressure on me thick. Guilt guilt, fear, guilt, obligation, guilt, guilt, guilt.

I cannot tell you how many times my mom repeated to me what she "claimed" the counsellor had said, always implying it was my job to be her emotional caretaker and counsellor, and she did this over 2 decades. 

They are relentless in their drive to have their needs met.  So yah, it backfired.

Sigh.  I can't tell you how many people described my mom this way - but nearly everybody who knew her.  When people said that to me, it was like cutting me up from the inside out, because when everyone else says that, we question ourselves, even though we know our own truth!  People on this board understand the very real "pain" this well meaning, but completely false statement can have on each of us.  I think without the lived experience, people can't "get it".  Here, we "get it".

Exactly. As I worked through the process of trying to understand, I went from self-blame to confusion to grief to sadness...and now I am moving to feeling mostly nothing. Maybe that's acceptance? I do still have flares of resentment and second-guessing myself when she attempts to blame the state of our relationship on me but those are fewer and further between. I still find myself wishing I could explain to others, but have largely accepted that would be futile and would likely backfire. Mostly, though, I'm thankful to have been able to recognize it for what it was, see its impact, and take measures to remove/protect myself and my own family from it. When things get hard, I focus on that.

I want to discuss your Dad. "He's all I got" and I feel that for you. I felt that way too. For reference, I am older, a mother to adult children. My parents lived into their elder years, both are deceased now. However, for me, my father was "all I had" too.

My best memories with him was when we were doing things alone with Dad. At these times, he seemed more relaxed, and more himself. But like you, when BPD mother was around, her wishes prevailed. She didn't make accusations thankfully, but she didn't seem to like Dad's relationships with anyone else- me included.

My mother's issues were explainable. She had BPD. By comparison, my father seemed like the "normal" parent and I perceived him as a victim of BPD mother.

I mentioned that both parents are role models for us, and we have learned behaviors from both of them. What I didn't realize was that I had learned co-dependent behaviors from my father- and these were "normalized" in my family- desired behaviors- feeling overly responsible for other adults in the family. The behaviors we learn were functional in our FOO's- it's how we adapted to manage in our families, but they are not functional as adults. These are the behaviors that 12 steps groups like Al Anon and CODA examine and work on and I think this is why your counselor recommended them.

Once I could see my own co-dependent behaviors, I saw where my father also wasn't a victim- he was the co-dependent enabler in the relationship. I know it's hard to see the effect your mother has on him. It was hard for me to see this too. But your father is an adult, and he also has his part in this. You can still love the father you have,  but without feeling overly responsible for his choices to be in this relationship.

Read up on the Karpman triangle dynamics. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

My father was a strong rescuer for BPD mother who took on victim position.

Your father probably feels emotionally divided between the two of you- you and your mother, and for me, his response to this was to get me to back down - and comply with her to keep the peace. This also meant tolerating her behavior- but this isn't your responsibility. You can have your own life and family- and you should, but understanding this dynamic will help you to understand why it's so difficult to do so.

This is not a quick process. If you make big moves like saying something to them, your mother will react to your pulling away from your role in stablizing the family dynamics. Don't make a statement about it to them- go slowly- and begin to refocus on your own life. Be less emotionally reactive- these dynamics feel personal but they are not about you. It's the pattern your parents have. Take some time to learn more, attend counseling. This isn't about changing your parents- it's about becoming more "you". You can still care about your parents, love your family, but from a different perspective. Boundaries are internal.

Go slow, don't make this about them and don't rock the boat with them for now. Let them be- and you refocus on you. I was more naive about these dynamics and jumped in with boundaries but I wasn't ready for BPD mother's reactions. I don't regret having boundaries but - learning to be less emotionally reactive and in accordance with my own understanding may have been more helpful. FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt)- takes some work to unravel. You are on the right path with learning about this.

I don't think I did have a solid sense of self- or at least entirely one as a young adult once out of the home. I think I had enough of one to be able to leave, go to college, establish my own life.

The "self"was both mature for my age- having being parentified but my self esteem was shaky and I didn't have the self confidence some of my peers had.  BPD wasn't well known at the time. I knew something wasn't OK with BPD mother, but didn't know what. I knew enough to go to counseling when I started college. It's been a learning experience unraveling it all. 

Thank you for your response. My final hearing is scheduled for September. If my wife does not agree to let me see the children, refuses to enter into consent orders, and the matter has to proceed through the family law system, realistically, how long might it take before I am able to see my children again?

Not being able to see them every day is extremely painful for me.

Zachira, this is so true:



People that only know my sister superficially,  describe her as "sweet" and just don't understand how her family can be no contact. That same thing applied to my dNPD brother-in-law. I don't try to explain things to people because unless they've been on the receiving end,  they won't get it. My BIL is gone now, my sister is almost 77. I don't hate my sister.  In fact, I really feel mostly nothing. I feel a little sadness for what could have been if she had gotten treatment. But I don't dwell on it.

In Spanish we say: "Tell me who you hang out with, I will tell you who you are." Certainly one of the most painful and challenging part of being in a highly dysfunctional family are the flying monkeys, the enablers of the behaviors of the most disordered family members. While my parents were alive, I literally spent hundreds of hours listening to my parents bad mouth scapegoated siblings who turned out to be nice people; certainly they were very kind to me. I realized just how disordered my parents were, when my scapegoated aunt took care my siblings and me for a week, while my parents were stuck on the other side of the country. The demeaning tone of my parents' voices when they talked about having to thank my aunt was just heartbreaking. This sort of thing happens over and over again to this day with the golden children doing horrible things still being kept on a pedestal while the scapegoats are put down no matter how generous and kind they are to other family members.

OK, I'm not a psychologist, and I've never experienced DID.  But I can think of an alternative explanation:  your mom has different "personas" that she uses to her perceived advantage.  Maybe when she's with people she wants to impress, she adopts a "fake" persona--possibly someone who is nice, concerned about others, giving, engaging.  My guess is that this persona is mostly performative, to win other people's attention and/or approval.  But maintaining this persona is exhausting for your mom.  By the time she gets home, your mom adopts her "real" persona with the people closest to her--her family--with whom she can let her guard down.  She doesn't feel she has to win you over, after all.  Instead, she's focused on getting her family to over-function for her, cater to her whims, reassure her, do her chores, not leave her alone, always make her the center of attention, "prove" your devotion to her.  When she doesn't get what she wants, she lashes out.  She's constantly grumpy, irritable, critical, demanding, demeaning, controlling.  If you dare to defy her, then she really throws a tantrum until you relent.  She might project her internal dissatisfaction onto you, calling you a lazy, ugly, stupid, good-for-nothing, freeloading worthless piece of scum who will never amount to anything and would be better off dead.  She might say she wishes she never had you, and that you ruined her life.  That's all just projection, code for how she feels about herself.  But she says this sort of thing so often that you might doubt yourself and start to believe her.

Sometimes though, when she's under stress, she'll show her "real" persona to those external people she wants to impress.  Maybe she feels slighted by a friend.  She'll throw some sort of tantrum, completely surprising her friend, because the tantrum is unwarranted.  Afterwards, your mom will feel regret and shame.  She'll pretend she "forgot" the entire incident even happened.  That's just a ruse for avoiding responsibility and apologizing.  If she's called out for her bad behavior, she might throw another tantrum and completely flip the script, blaming the former friend for some sort of grievance.  It's mostly lies.  She will DARVO:  Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.  Internally, maybe she blames an "alternate personality" for this.  But I think this sort of thing sounds exactly like BPD.  PwBPD can't handle feelings of shame, and so internally they develop delusional thinking patterns and re-write history to make themselves out to be victims, instead of taking responsibility for offensive behavior.  They'll deny any wrongdoing, and if they are challenged, they might say they forgot, or straight up lie about what happened.  I might be off base here, but that's what I'm reading into your post.

Now, of course we all try to project our best selves to the external world.  I'll try to put on a happy face when I'm at work or at a party.  I'm not saying that this abnormal--I think we all do that to some extent, and when we get home, we tend to let our hair down and relax.  I just think that pwBPD take this normal behavior to an extreme.  The pwBPD in my life typically seems able to "pull herself together" to do whatever she wants to do.  But good grief, her emotions can flip wildly, over seemingly minor things.  One moment she seems happy, and the other, she's totally unhinged and flying off the handle.  It seems to me that she can control her emotions for a short time, but she's easily overwhelmed by ordinary life.  Many ordinary things seem too much for her, like she can't handle them.  Minor setbacks seem like the end of the world.  Minor stresses (a headcold, a flat tire, a parking ticket, an appointment) seem momentous to her, a reason to skip all other obligations for the day.   Minor disagreements seem like reason to launch WWIII.  She needs LOTS of downtime.  She seems to have no stamina, no grit, no resilience.  It's like ordinary life knocks her off her feet all the time, and she's constantly upset by that, because she feels tired, strained, incapable, overwhelmed.  She thinks the world is conspiring against her, and yet she does precious little to deal with her problems.  She'd rather rant and rot in bed.  Do I have that about right?

Thanks for these replies. It's such a difficult thing to make sense of as the non-disordered person. Even now I find myself having to ground myself intentionally whenever I have an interaction with her. She has surrounded herself with people who validate and support her, normalizing the chaos she sows and ignoring the patterns. I think one of the hardest things for me in trying to understand her treatment of me through the years has been trusting my experiences and holding her accountable when those around her (and me, in the case of my FOO) look the other way, normalize, and even justify it. It's a wonder any sibling or child comes through it with a solid, clear sense of Self.