Pook's cooperation with his ex is not the typical story here.  But, as he wrote, finding common ground is always the best answer... if it's possible.  You won't know if it's possible until you try.

In my case, my seeking to have a child after a decade of marriage - in an effort the make my ex less troubled - backfired.  Looking back, having a child triggered her childhood FOO issues and made it worse.  As a husband life was slowly getting worse, but as a father I was compared to her family abuser.

I was always the considerate one but it seemed to just egg on more allegations.  We were in and out of court for 8 years until the court order (its version of a Boundary) was fully reversed.  She started with (the default for mothers) temp custody and temp majority time.  It ended with me having full custody and majority parenting time (during the school year).

My main regret about our time in court is how slowly the court addressed the obvious conflict and disparagement.  Eight years?  I've come to realize court prefer waiting on the parents to reach a consensus rather than the court stepping and making the Decisions.  Though I know many here had even tougher trials and tribulations.

I have learned a lot of great skills on this site and with BPD resources, and have become so much more patient it with my uBPDw recently…just trying to brush off her BPD stuff and not fall into traps. It has largely worked in keeping conflict to a low simmer when it happens.  However this weekend she has been mad at me for whatever reason…tension thick. She said so many mean things me the last few days. I just brushed it off and quietly stewed.  Tonight she just flipped at me and started to really jab at me and my dreams and aspirations.  Basically saying my dreams are stupid, I’ll never accomplish them, etc….   She rarely every reciprocates anything of the love, charity, gifts, service, support , etc I show her. I’m always supporting and loving her and saying her dreams are great and we can do it, writing notes, making her laugh, physical affections, etc yall know the drill. I get nothing in return.

It feels like I’m the care taker or a 12 year old foster child who doesn’t even like me, just needs me and takes from me.  Honesty, he’s so depressing. A man has his limits. 

So tonight she just said something in such a sinister voice and I raised my voice and “shut up, I don’t like you. She starts crying)…don’t you start crying…You make me miserable. I pour my life into serving and loving you and never get anything in return…just constantly treated like garage and my dreams mockedd….constant kick in the balls. I feel like the caretaker of a 12 year old girl when you are upset, which is about half the time. If you calculate how much time we have spent in this state (triggered, arguing, splitting) …it’s half hour marriage . Think about how much time we waste of our lives.  You have a problem and you won’t admit it. This is not norma.

I didn’t say I don’t love her. Because I do, I swore before the Lord I’d love her. I love her dearly . But I don’t know if I really like her right now.  I really try not to say things that are not true.  Of course while I do feel sense of relief to be able to say all of that…as a Christian man I wish I hadn’t.  I also know it doesn’t help a BPD person. Just makes it worse.  But I feel like I’m going to crack. I’m at the edge. I’m not allowed to feel stressed or upset or tired in this marriage…only her. She had proven that. 

I have personally been through this as well, and I watched my brother-in-law do it completely wrong with his divorce years earlier.  In his situation, the kids were used against him in every possible way to harm him.  The disordered parent would change custody arrangements without warning, they would bad mouth dad to the kids, they'd send the kids with rags as clothing and scream if they didn't come back with nice outfits- the list of psychological warfare was endless.

Each time, my brother went back to court, all kinds of terrible things were said about him, and somehow there was so much back and forth, the judge would discredit most of it.  My brother had documentation, mind you, while his ex didn't since she was making it all up.  And each of these trips to court would cost thousands of dollars.  Eventually, my brother-in-law stopped fighting to see his kids and missed out on their teenage years when his ex finally convinced the kids how toxic and terrible he was.

So when I went to divorce my BPD ex several years ago, I decided that there was no way I was going to do that.  I was respectful for my ex and told her every time we talked, that we couldn't be like her brother and we always had to put the kids needs above our differences.  Even if we divorce, even if we re-marry, we absolutely have to continue being mom and dad as one cohesive unit.  And eventually, over time, my ex completely agreed...we had to find peace between us so we could still be parents.

Mind you, I wasn't creating the chaos- she left me for another man.  She lied to everyone about me and caused countless chaos.  But because of the kids, I was determined to let all of that go and make the kids our priority.  It was definitely hard and it took endless amounts of patience for awhile, but I'm so thankful for it.  My ex and I can talk about anything today and we look out for each other while looking out for the kids.

It might sound dumb- you're getting a divorce to get away from all that stuff.  I get it.  But as parents, she will be in your life regardless and you can be like my brother-in-law (which is what most of the world does) spending $5-15k a year in lawyers for court hearings or you can take a different path. 

I would advise that different path, finding common ground is always the best answer if it's possible.  And today, it may not be possible- that's okay.  There will be a time when that is possible though and I hope you'll at least consider it.

I spent around $250 on divorce by filing it myself, zero in court fees, zero in custody arrangements, zero in alimony.  We split our assets 50/50 and because she trusted me completely by then, I handled everything on our behalf.  The judge warned her in court, she should really, really have legal counsel before waiving her rights, but we were okay by that point because I made it my life's mission to make us okay for the kid's sake. 

So that one small shift in thinking changed everything- she can't be the enemy and the mother of my kids if I want the next few decades to be peaceful.  I had to choose just like you have to choose.  And I 100% made the right choice.

Just noticed my neighbor left her garage door open. There is a bicycle and other things that could get stolen. In the past, I would have called her to let her know. The problem would be that if I did this now, it would start the cycle of abuse again. The neighbor takes my being nice to her as an open invitation to abuse and try to manipulate me. So sad she is the way she is and she is not going to change.

From my years of adapting to BPD in my life, I've realized that it's far more about me than it is my BPD ex or BPD daughter.  I can't control what they do.  I can't control how they think.  I can barely control my own life sometimes (due to work, family, regular life, etc).

What that's led me to realize is that if one of the BPDs in my life reaches out, I'm kind and compassionate because I love them.  And if they happen to "turn on me" after contact and start bad-mouthing me, telling me off, whatever, then I wish them luck and tell them that I'll talk to them soon.  In other words, I try not to give it a second thought for a moment longer than I have to because I realize that they're sick and they're saying/doing things that aren't tied to MY REALITY. 

Maybe that's their world and my heart breaks for them, but that's not how I function anymore.  I'm responsible for me, that's it, and I try to take care of the people around me that love me.  If that's not you...no problem...I can live my life and you can live yours.  But I'm not going to carry around that personal baggage in my mind because someone else is having a bad day and being abusive.

At one point in my life, I brought my half-brother off the streets to live with me.  He was into gangs and the drug life and those habits die hard.  I remember one time, he wanted to beat the snot out of my BPD daughter for something ridiculous she said.  When he got heated over her words, she got mad and threw a coffee mug at his face.  If we weren't there and heard the yelling...oh boy...it would have been really really bad.

I got my BPD kid calmed down after I made my half-brother go to his room.  He's in his 40's but LOL, it is what it is. 

Then I went to him and said, "Why are you so angry?" 

He said, "Because of what she said...you can't say that to people!"

And I said, "Was it true?"

He replied, "How could you ask me that?  You know it's not true!"

I said, "Then why did you reply like it's true?"

He was puzzled, so I continued.  "If someone says something that's not true, and you get all upset about it, you just proved them right.  They're living rent-free in your head because you don't have the composure to just ignore them, or even laugh about it.  Why would you ever justify something that a crazy person says about you?"

My brother fell dead silent because his life completely changed that day.  He realized that he had got it wrong his entire life, you don't have to fight to prove your honor.  That's ridiculous.  If someone insults you, they're doing it to hurt you.  So don't let them, don't take the insult to heart and just ignore it.  Or better yet, laugh at them for the failed attempt.  That hurts them a whole lot more than words ever could because it shows something about you- that you can no longer be manipulated and be forced to play their game.  That's the way you win every single time- you don't play the game.

I hope that helped someone- I never thought to share that here before.

Hi there,

I think you're asking many of the right questions here.  Though I haven't been in your situation, someone very close to me has, and I understand how trying and painful it can be.  Here are some ideas for you.

"I’m doing my best to stay calm, document everything, communicate through appropriate channels, and keep my home emotionally safe and consistent. I don’t speak negatively about his mother to him. I try to validate his feelings without putting adult issues on him."

Yes, yes, yes.  I think a consistently loving, stable and caring environment is critical for your child.  Not speaking negatively about the other parent is also important.  Even if the other parent is disordered, your kid probably still wants to love her, and be loved by her.  You don't want to get in the way of that.  You want your kid to be a kid, and not be concerned about adult issues, let alone acrimony and fighting.

"I’m also moving through the court process now, and I’m wondering if anyone here has actually gotten to the other side of this."

Yes, but it took a few years and came at a high legal cost, because the disordered parent was uncooperative, lied to the court and was also able to "pull themselves together" when interviewed by CPS.

"Did court help create stability?"

Yes, eventually, because visitation time with the disordered parent was reduced and subject to conditions (e.g. supervised visits only, no driving the kids), because the disordered parent was severely dysfunctional, even though he tried to hide it from CPS.  Before the divorce, his ex over-functioned for him, but without that support, he spiralled.

"Did having orders, structured custody, parenting apps, reunification therapy, custody evaluations, parenting coordinators, or other safeguards actually make a difference?"

Yes, eventually.  The parenting apps help with legal documentation (keeping a record of visitation dates, child events, medical care, etc.).  In theory, communication about childcare was supposed to happen over the apps and be limited to logistics only.  In practice, however, the disordered parent didn't comply--he did not input any information and generally did not consult the app for logistical details.  Instead, he tended to communicate directly with his ex, usually via nasty texts, and he'd miss child events on a regular basis.  This was hard on the kids because when they were with dad, they typically missed out on their soccer practices, cub scout outings or other events important to them, because dad couldn't/wouldn't execute.  Note that dad was unemployed and didn't have anything else to do on visitation days, yet despite his free time, he just couldn't execute on visitation very well.  He probably skipped a third to half of visitation with no notice.  Imagine how that made the kids feel.

CPS was involved during two separate cycles to evaluate custody, and ultimately recommended restrictions on custody time for the disordered parent.  I think courts are unlikely to rule against the recommendations of a CPS expert who did the work and wrote up a detailed report.  Since the court ruled that parenting time with the disordered parent must be supervised (e.g. by Grandma), the children are much better cared for these days.

"How did your child eventually come through the FOG?"

Today, the two girls are sick of their dad; they barely tolerate him.  The son (same sex as the disordered parent) is very conflicted.  He wants to love his dad, but he has a hard time accepting that his dad is so low functioning and mean most of the time.

"Were they able to see reality over time without you having to “prove” everything to them?"

Absolutely, though it's really hard on them because they want to love and be loved by their dad.

"How did you maintain your bond when the other parent was working against it?"

Just like you're doing, through a loving, stable home.  Also, healthy rules are in place (e.g. bedtimes, homework, age-appropriate chores, meals shared together as a family, responsibility for keeping rooms tidy, limits on screen time, one-on-one time, etc.), because kids need a healthy structure, routine and connection, ESPECIALLY when life with the disordered parent is the opposite.

It's true that after any visitation with disordered dad, the kids tend to be out-of-sorts for a day or two.  It's partly because of the rupture with normal routines, but also because of big emotions in dealing with dad (e.g. criticisms, insults, general disappointment, lots of stress).  But I think after a brief re-adjustment period, the kids get back to normal.

"What helped your child feel safe loving both parents, even if the other parent made that hard?"

This is a tough one, because the disordered dad is very mean and selfish.  Mom explains to the kids that deep down dad loves them, but he's just not feeling well right now, and since he's not well, he can't show them how much he loves them.

***

I'll wrap up with another piece of advice.  If your ex is disordered, dysfunctional and unreliable, any custody arrangement and divorce decree should assume non-compliance on her part.  In other words, wherever possible, there should be a plan of action if and when your ex doesn't comply.  Here's an example:  in a "normal" co-parenting arrangement based on fairness, kids might be dropped off/picked up at a neutral location halfway between residences.  That sounds fair and reasonable, right?  But it might not be if one parent is disordered and unreliable.  In practice, that looks like driving to a parking lot and then waiting 30, 45 minutes, wondering if the disordered parent is going to come pick up the kids.  Turning around after waiting 45 minutes might look like "interfering with parenting time."  Meanwhile, the kids are starving, increasingly grumpy and let down when the disordered parent is terribly late or a no-show.  I think "fairness" needs to take the child's needs and parental non-performance into consideration.  A "fairer" arrangement for the child might be, the disordered parent picks up the kids at your home, and if they are 15 or more minutes late, they forfeit the parenting time.  Or maybe, the disordered parent picks up the child after school, but if she's a no-show, the child takes the bus home to you as usual, and the parenting time is forfeited.  In other words, you need to factor in non-compliance contingencies.

Hope that helps a little.

Jars,

You've come to the right place.  I haven't tried an online therapist, but these boards are extremely helpful in my opinion.

My adult BPD stepdaughter was probably at her worst at around age 23.  I think it was because she was bumping up against adult expectations and pressures, and yet she was equipped with the emotional resources of a youngster (think distress intolerance, super-sized emotions, unrealistic expectations, inability to focus or problem-solve, misreading situations, no appreciation of context, no resilience).  By that time, her peers had graduated from college for the most part, and they were leading adult lives:  starting careers, moving away, living independently, forming romantic relationships, maybe pursuing advanced degrees.  Meanwhile, my BPD stepdaughter felt left behind . . . unable to complete college-level work, unable to hold a job for more than a couple of days, unsure of who she was or wanted to become, let alone how to make an adult's life for herself.  I think she felt inferior and was deeply shamed about that.  Though she could pass the time sleeping, using marijuana and scrolling social media, deep down she knew she was failing at "adulting."  But rather than do anything about it, she lashed out at her family, blaming them for all her woes.  Eventually she embraced a victim attitude, perceiving everything in her life as trauma.  She lashed out at everyone, and as a result she lost all her friends.  She was alienated from her entire family (cousins, aunts, uncles included), and the only exception she'd make was her dad and me, because she needed housing and money from us.  If any of that sounds familiar, you can take a look at some of my posts in the son/daughter section.

Anyway, your daughter is only 23, she can still turn things around with therapy, provided that she wants to change for the better.  You can't force her, she has to be ready.  Basically she has to run out of all other options, by hitting bottom.  If you enable her to live a dysfunctional life, then my guess is that, though she's miserable, her life is working well enough for her.  As long as she has YOU to blame for everything (while you give her money/housing/insurance and/or other types of support), she has little incentive to change.  Looking back, I wish my husband hadn't enabled his daughter to persist with such a dysfunctional life for as long as he did.  I know it was hard, because he couldn't bear to see her suffer, and he helped her countless times out of love.  But at the end of the day, she had to suffer in order to be in a position to accept professional help.

I think that by enabling dysfunction, my BPD stepdaughter suffered years longer than she should have.  Basically she was allowed to live with us while NEETT--Not in Education, Employment, Training or Therapy.  She was allowed adult freedoms but had zero responsibilities, and that is a bizarro world of mixed-up incentives.  I'd advise, if you are supporting your daughter in any way (money, insurance, transportation, housing, logistical or administrative help, tuition, food, etc.), she should be respectful to you, and she should not be NEETT.  Also, if your daughter has been highly dysfucntional and NEETT for a while, and she asks you to help her "start over" with a new lease, tuition, etc., my opinion is that helping would actually set her up to fail.  To expect her to magically recover, do a 180 and handle full-time pressures without demonstrating some progressive improvement first is delusional.  Save your money and energy, or better yet, make her be the one to do most of the work to "start over."  She's 23, if she wants to move to another city, enroll in another school, etc., she should be the one to make it happen, not you.

I'm not going to lie, it's a tough road to recovery, but it can happen.  In fact, once my stepdaughter started taking therapy seriously, she turned her life around pretty quickly.  That doesn't mean everything is perfect, and she has faced some setbacks.  But right now her life looks much, much better than it did a few short years ago.  Alas, she's still estranged from the entire family right now, but we keep tabs on her through her therapist.  From what we hear, she's doing pretty well, and she's making an adult's life for herself.  I'm really proud of her for that.  I don't think she's quite ready to repair relationships with the family yet, but I'm still hopeful.  My guess is that if she starts a "career" job and maybe finds a romantic partner, then she can shed her victim identity for a more positive one.  I think that if she does that, then she might let go of the past and start talking to the family again.  That's my hope.

Anyway, I'll wrap up with a reminder that this is NOT your fault, no matter how much your daughter tries to convince you otherwise.  Also, no contact or low contact can be recommended if you need a break.  You don't need to explain it to anyone, just take a break if you need it.  Let the calls go to voicemail, and don't read the texts if they are too triggering to you.  Rest assured that if your daughter has an emergency, she can dial 911.

Look, your daughter has BPD, and as an adult, it's her responsibility to get professional help if she needs it.  You can't "fix" her, no matter how much you'd like to help.  Only she can do that.

That sounds awful. In my situation, my BPD mother seemed fine with us being away from her. We were fine with it too. I think she prefered it. So we were able to spend time away from home.

I also spent a lot of time in my room. I had all the magazines too, and the recordings of music stars and listened to them alot. I think it was a way to not be focused on what was going on at home, actually I think a balanced kind of escape. It wasn't harmful and I kept grounded in reality. I was realistic about the performers. Some of my friends seemed to think they really were "in love" with them but I knew for me it was more being a fan of their music and persona than to think that.

I can relate to thinking that other people had caring families, as if I was the only one. It was a secret, and also connected to a sense of shame about it, so I didn't disclose it to other people.

I found out years later that two friends from high school had abusive parents. Another one had a mother with BPD. Yet none of us said anything about it and we didn't know at the time. I think we all thought we were the only ones.

I think it's good that some high profile people are sharing the truth about their upbringing, even though I don't wish this for anyone else. I wonder what it would be like knowing some of my rock idols had difficult childhoods and would it have helped to know that, even if it didn't change the situation?

I didn't see the MJ musical. I wish I did. I admit to being a fan girl over him. I didn't see him in concert. I think the movie is the next best thing we have now.

I don't know how much Jaafar heard about his grandfather. The relationship is documented so he had to know something. Even with my own kids, there's no need to tell all about my BPD mother - their grandmother. They knew enough about BPD to be able to understand her behaviors. They weren't as affected by them. From my own experience, I would guess that Joe didn't have the same influence on Jaafar as he did with his own children.

Another music superstar who had abusive parents is Elton John. The relationship with his parents was addressed in the biopic film although it didn't over focus on that.
 
To Elton John's credit, he provided financial support for his mother. He could do this, as he had the means to.  Most people don't have his resources and may not be able to do this without compromising themselves. It's understandable that they don't. He didn't have to, but he could do it and he did.

This is an interesting article about him: https://people.com/music/elton-john-glad-kids-didnt-meet-his-mom/

I saw clips of Jaafar on YouTube. He's a very talented person! Thanks for letting me know what you thought as a fellow fan.   The emotion is something you can't remove from it. Fans can't either. It was so unfair. I don't know if Jaafar knew his grandfather. Katherine is still alive so he must have heard it from her, his dad Jermaine and uncles/aunts. I can't wait to see the movie. I'm glad the videos from Bad and Thriller and the early Jackson 5 TV performances are on YouTube.

Did you see MJ The Musical? I would have never heard about it without YouTube. The touring company came through my city but it was sold out quickly.   Myles Frost did a great job & he won a Tony for the role. Clips are on YouTube.

I don't know if the musical handled his upbringing.

The late Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys was also abused by his father who coached him, his brothers and a cousin when they were a up and coming band. Brian Wilson had a nervous breakdown and then was abused by a psychologist who took over his life and bank account.

Both fathers were amateur musicians. I don't know if the extreme coaching was partly out of envy or to live vicariously (enmeshment) through their sons - both musical prodigies.

The bpd character in Jules & Jim is the quiet type. The director shows her angry face (Catherine) in freeze frames, innovative at the time, so you don't miss it. The entire movie revolves around Catherine and her manipulative, chaotic behavior. You feel something is missing in scenes without her. The story is flat and dull.  You miss the drama too.  The filmmaker (Francois Truffaut)  is clever to make you feel like the trauma bonded Jules & Jim.


Many languages, not Modern English, have a formal and informal you. If you've taken a foreign language you see this. The formal you is used for strangers, a plural, out of respect and older relatives including parents. In college I took a language in the same language family as my parents spoke. I realized then all my cousins addressed their parents in the formal you but I used the informal you. I called her mom or mama. I never called her mother.  I asked my mom why and she said she chose that. It could be enmeshment, wanting a friend or parent and not a child? It wasn't a standard of the language.

It's interesting you called your mother by her first name behind her back. You wanted to separate yourself and create stability for yourself.

I couldn't get away from my mom as a kid. My brother went to a boarding high school when I was 8. I wasn't allowed to have friends. It was just me & her. I couldn't go to our public library that often. I read all the Nancy Drew books our school library had. My mom would let me buy movie magazines and teenybopper magazines in 4th grade like Tiger Beat and 16. I read about the Jackson 5 and other teen acts. I never would have thought they had an abusive parent. I thought they all had charmed lives and were much better off, loved more and treated better than me.