Hi JazzSinger,

When you say you took the picture to remind yourself of who he really is, it seems like you really didn't like his polarized t-shirt, right? That was understood as criticism. More than that, the action of taking a picture was assumed to be a combative action (in a way, it was). In this situation in which he feels judged and "attacked," he will tend to have quick negative interpretations, and he did the simplest one, that you would use that picture against him.

An update here.  Nothing that wasn't predicted. 

BpdW got into an argument with her new romantic interest about her other girlfriend.  When W told me what was going on, clearly there was some triangulation, not with me, but with W, and the two other women.  This started because W was feeling left out and decided to go back on the women's dating platform, where she was immediately messaged by her new romantic interest's new GF.  And then some weird stuff was said. 

Either the new GF was trying to cause friction or was emotionally playing games in some other way.  Wither way, I expected this, and this was my biggest fear.

So then things got ugly in BPD style (curse words followed by "i don't want to talk to you anymore").  Now W is clearly acting heartbroken, in a very unhealthy obsessive way.  In W's mind, she is trying to restrain herself from contacting this woman again (basically stalking), sad because this woman won't talk to her anymore, and feels that this happened only because she and her did not have a physical relationship.  I told her that if they had a physical relationship, the same would have happened, and she would feel much worse not only because she shared a physical relationship with someone who abandoned her, but because it also would have likely ended our marriage. 

That's the backwards BPD logic talking, and the root of most of W's traumas - doing things she feels uncomfortable with in order to get people to like her, getting rejected, and then feeling intense shame.  She feels that if she had a physical relationship with this woman, she would not have sought another girlfriend.  Yet, from the beginning, the other woman was very open about not wanting a monogamous r/s.   A huge emotional double standard.  Scary too that the other woman is a psych nurse and probably should have identified this right away. 

W's T says she can't meet with her until next week.  W now acts on the verge of suicidal, yet I can't force her to get help. 

Overlapping community can keep the nervous system “on alert,” so it’s normal that this still pinged you even though you’re clearly better off. Keep making decisions that safeguard your peace-not decisions that attempt to win the story.

Ok, this is about reaching the best dynamic for a relationship with your BPD intimate partner.

I see so many people here saying they become completely agreeable with their BPD partners and always try to be kind, often adopting a passive role to avoid their partner's anger.

What I find curious about this is that the guidance given by dating coaches is the opposite. They all tell you to move away from being a "nice guy". They tell you that putting up too much effort will not be rewarded and making them the center of your life will backfire. And the advice is also for during the relationship (to keep them interested in you). A good example is the The33Secrets channel.

And here is a 1-minute video that summarizes the concept of accommodation:

What Women Say vs What They Respond To

Here is the full transcript of the video:

>> What do women really want?
>> I don't care what they want. I only care what they respond to. See, my focus is a little bit different from your other guests. There's what women say they want. There's what women think they want. And then there's what they actually respond to. I'm interested in what works on the street when it's time to date and mate. And what women actually respond to is not what they say they want.
>> So, what do they respond to? they really respond to a guy who's a challenge, a guy who's a question mark, a guy who keeps them guessing. You see, in the beginning, the less attractive you are physically, the more you have to rely on your attitude. And that's what I wrote my book for. I wrote my book for the averagel looking, even ugly guy who goes out there in the real world and tries to be a nice guy, gets his head kicked in.
>> So, no more Mr. Nice Guy.
>> You can be pleasant. You see, we we got to define our terms. By nice, I mean accommodating. When you accommodate, you get what the commode gets. You get the crapola.

Now it's worth highlighting the last sentence: "When you accommodate, you get what the commode gets. You get the crapola."

But is this scientific? Certainly, yes. There is lots of evidence to validate the idea:

• Self-reported mate preferences often fail to predict actual attraction in live interactions:
  Sex Differences in Mate Preferences Revisited: Do People Know What They Initially Desire in a Romantic Partner? (Eastwick & Finkel, Psychological Science)
  
• Further evidence that ideals stated before dating do not predict romantic desire during speed dating:
  Speed-Dating: A Powerful and Flexible Paradigm for Studying Romantic Relationship Initiation (Finkel et al.)
  
• Uncertainty about whether a man likes a woman can increase her attraction to him:
  Uncertainty Can Enhance Romantic Attraction (Whitchurch, Wilson & Gilbert, Psychological Science)
  
• Romantic uncertainty and desire amplification in early-stage attraction:
  Being Chosen Versus Being Rejected: Effects of Romantic Uncertainty on Attraction (Whitchurch et al.)
  
• Playing hard to get and selectivity increasing perceived desirability:
  The Effects of Playing Hard to Get on Interpersonal Attraction (Walster et al.)
  
• Scarcity and perceived mate value effects in attraction:
  Scarcity Effects on Desire: Perceived Availability and Romantic Attraction
  
• Displays of dominance increase women’s ratings of men’s sexual attractiveness:
  Do Women Prefer “Nice Guys”? The Effect of Male Dominance Behavior on Women's Ratings of Sexual Attractiveness
  

Now let's look into how this advice applies to those with a BPD partner.

The concept matches with my own perception that partners with BPD only display their worst behaviors after they start to feel accommodated. I think that also applies to male partners with BPD and some other disorders, but it seems especially true for females with BPD. The difference is that male partners never get fully accommodated with their aggression because they are subjected to domestic violence laws.

So I'm thinking that all of those who live with a BPD partner are, one way or another, accommodating them. And it gets worse after you get kids, because then the stakes are higher and your responsibility increases, so you accommodate even more, even if you're the type that has no problem saying "No" and even if you don't love her anymore. The alternative of going through a series of disputes in court seems so expensive and destructive that we may just freeze to avoid lawyers, financial support, asset disputes, child custody disputes, etc.

For instance, when you leave the room, allowing them to shout, break stuff, and offend you, you are still on the receiving end, so you are accommodating the behavior. It's even arguable that you are being an enabler. Because you haven't left the relationship yet, and you are still being a financial provider for your partner (usually).

Does that make sense? Now let's look into BPD-specific scientific evidence:

• Daily-life evidence that interpersonal conflict and reduced perceived warmth precipitate affective dysregulation and suicidal ideation in BPD:
  Interpersonal Stressors and Suicidal Ideation in Borderline Personality Disorder: An Experience Sampling Study (Whalen et al., Psychological Medicine)
  
• The biosocial and behavioral model underlying DBT, including the role of environmental reinforcement of emotional escalation:
  Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder (Linehan, 1993)
  
• Ambulatory evidence that interpersonal stress predicts non-suicidal self-injury in BPD, without clear interpersonal “reward” afterward:
  Interpersonal Consequences of Non-Suicidal Self-Injury: An Experience Sampling Study (Armey et al., Behaviour Research and Therapy)
  
• A longitudinal expressed-emotion study showed emotional overinvolvement predicted better clinical outcomes in BPD, while criticism did not:
  Expressed Emotion and Clinical Outcome in Borderline Personality Disorder (Hooley & Hoffman, American Journal of Psychiatry)
  
• Evidence that emotional overinvolvement is associated with higher caregiver burden and poorer carer mental health in BPD:
  Burden and Support Needs of Carers of People with Borderline Personality Disorder (Bailey & Grenyer, British Journal of Psychiatry)
  The relationship between expressed emotion and wellbeing for families and carers of a relative with Borderline Personality Disorder
  
• Interpersonal conflict and lower perceived warmth were linked to suicidal ideation:
  Momentary interpersonal processes of suicidal surges in borderline personality disorder
  
• Extreme emotional displays can be intermittently reinforced by the environment:
  A Biosocial Developmental Model of Borderline Personality: Elaborating and Extending Linehan’s Theory
  

On one side, when the partner becomes warmer, more reassuring, more responsive, and less rejecting, this usually correlates with better outcomes for the BPD partner. The same happens when there is a more “involved” family stance. It's also arguable that “being a question mark” can be more of a trigger than a stabilizer, because it could heighten the negative perceptions and interpretations from the partner with BPD, which are likely to increase conflict.

On the other hand, however, emotional overinvolvement is also associated with higher caregiver burden and poorer caregiver mental health.  Perhaps being completely adapted (to them) may also be a problem. For “accommodated,” as in “the partner gives in to demands during episodes, removes limits, or changes behavior to avoid explosions,” we know it is counterproductive to the relationship dynamic. Like in their upbringing, this setting could be intermittently reinforcing the extreme emotional displays.

So, my take on this is that the only way to make the relationship work is to put yourself in a position where you'll be conditionally present in the relationship. This means you will provide them with a fair amount of attention, love, and emotional support that they need, but only under the condition that they are respecting you; otherwise, you'll leave them by themselves.

For that to happen, you need to be emotionally self-sufficient and not codependent. With "self-sufficient," I don't mean a loner that doesn't get attached. I mean someone who does not have abandonment fears and is highly confident that if their current relationship fails, they will recover and find a better one at some point in time.

Additionally, you must be a free person, not a slave of your partner's mood. For that to happen, the simplest solution is to have a living apart together (LAT) relationship. That's until they recover from BPD symptoms affecting you.

In some cases, you'll be able to "get them in check" while still living together. That can be accomplished by setting them upon an imminent risk that is very scary for them. It could be, for instance, that you have the papers ready for a divorce and evidence that gives you the certainty of taking custody of the kids. Or it could just be that they are on probation for domestic violence, and if you call the police on your partner again, they get immediately arrested. In my view, those are precursors for you to be "a free person". But you'll still have to do hard work to reach this position and then still earn their respect nevertheless.

Many people will worry that their partners could leave them if cornered like that, but in reality, people with BPD need to be guided and led, and this will just make them happier, even if they get angry in the beginning.

That's what I have seen in all success stories. And this is also what is happening in my own relationship. I'm living apart, and recently my wife hasn't been attacking me anymore.

And once you are a free person and you are leading the relationship, you can request them to do the BPD treatments that are available so that they improve. You'll only be able to drop your guard when they are in remission from the BPD symptoms, but this is feasible.

Please share your thoughts on this! 

Hi Mitt and welcome to the family.

I've began experiencing something similar with my BPD daughter this past year.  My kid has been serious about treatment for a few years now, so she's better...but she's clearly still mentally ill.

Long story short, I divorced her BPD mom a few years ago and eventually moved overseas to remarry.  We're waiting on the visa process to bring my new wife and her son back to the USA, so I've had a long-distance relationship with my two daughters for the past year and a half.  With one kid, we've become a lot closer and we talk/text all the time.

With the BPD kid, she tells everyone how I only care about my new son and how I do things with him that I never did with my other kids.  That's not true, mind you, the boy hides in his room playing video games on his phone.  But the reality doesn't matter because in time, the narrative has become how I have abandoned my kids to live my best life with a new family. 

The part where "my family" had almost nothing to do with me after their mom had an affair is somehow forgotten.  I think the old saying is true though, distance makes the heart grow fonder.  And for BPDs, that means mass jealousy and projection so they can always remain the victim in any circumstance.

Because of the distance, there's only so much I can do to overcome that since I'm on the opposite side of the world.  The flights are like 24-30 hours each way and it takes days to adjust to the jetlag, so I only return home maybe once a year. 

For now, I've accepted that my BPD kid is not going to be pleasant.  I don't reach out very often, and if she's angry at the world I don't push the conversations.  I will answer whenever she calls though and I'll help her however I can.  It has to be a real relationship though and if she only calls to rant, I'll find an excuse to get off the phone quickly.

In your specific situation, I think you have two plays.

One, remain no contact and wait for the pendulum to swing your way.  Eventually mom will do something so horrific, your BPD kid will paint her black and try to get her dad back....if for nothing else, to have someone to talk about how horrible mom is.  I don't play that game, mind you, but it always seems to get to that point eventually.

Two, continue to reach out to your daughter on holidays, birthdays, etc.  Sending a letter or email costs nothing and even though it might anger her...who cares.  The only goal is to show that you do want a relationship and you're making an effort.  In time, it would make a difference.

If you take option #2, make the letter about your life (which includes your current wife).  Don't talk about the previous fights, don't talk about BPD, don't talk about anything that has to do with your daughter other than a general "I hope everyone is doing well and I think about you often."  I wouldn't even say, "I hope to see you soon" or something like that because she'll twist it to being manipulation.

One last thing, she replied to your text...I think it was a text.  She was ugly and hurtful, which is par for the course since she feels abandoned and unloved.  So she lashed out and took cheap shots.  But the important part is that she did reply and did try to be gracious (before completely going off the rails).  That alone is progress, it's a starting point.

Hi Jazz!

I've swatted at a few phones in my day when someone was trying to take a photo I didn't like.  But I never tried to break anyone's phone either or actually hurt them.  I guess it would depend on your husband's motives and how we was feeling/acting right after that happened.

Maybe the best possible lesson here is not to take photos of your husband since it could be a trigger for him.  I know that sounds silly, but it's a minor concession to living in peace.

Hi again Mitt,

I guess I can relate to the situation because I married my husband when his children were college-age.  Even though he had been divorced from his ex for 15 years when he remarried, his daughters, one in particular, didn't accept it.  She exhibited all sorts of jealous behavior, often acting like SHE was trying to be the wife.  She'd encroach on my space, for example by using the master bathroom (and leaving her telltale "signature" of human waste) instead of her own bathroom, or by putting her things in my closet.  She'd try to cuddle with her dad in what I thought was an inappropriate way.  Most of all, she'd talk/call/text him excessively (seeming way too needy given her age), stage "dramas" and act out.  All this culminated in her withdrawing from college and MOVING IN with us full-time.  She even fake-fainted during our marriage ceremony, joking shortly afterwards, "I must have been trying to be the center of attention."  Yes indeed.

Anyway, eventually she did seem to grow out of it, but it took around three tension-filled, boundary-testing years.  The turning point was when she started having her OWN life.  By then, the idea of living with dad and stepmom as if still a teenager had grown old, as it seemed too immature and downright boring.  (I think it's not normal for a 20-something to be living with parents, sleeping all day while not being engaged with studies, internships, training or volunteering).  And I think that by then, she had matured and gradually understood that her dad deserved to have a life too.  At the end of the day, I think it was peer pressure that pulled her out of this stage.  Her friends from college had moved on, whereas she had been "stuck" living with her dad and stepmom like a young teenager?  Since her personality is active and extroverted, she got bored and moved on, eventually accepting that her dad remarried.

The other daughter however was diagnosed with BPD.  Unlike her sister, she didn't seem to take her dad's remarriage as overt "abandonment."  Her personality is more avoidant, passive-aggressive and ENTITLED.  Though she probably thinks she has "empathy," deep down I think she doesn't consider anyone else's point of view, not one bit.  I think her underlying resentment is over financial resources and "fun."  So if her dad and I try to go on a vacation, after working hard at our jobs all year and saving up for it, she would "ruin" it for us, one way or another, by fabricating some sort of crisis.  It doesn't feel like it's because she fears abandonment, because she has gone through various periods of extrangement from her dad.  I think it feels more spiteful.  It's like she's saying, she's miserable and wants us to be miserable too.  It's like she's saying, How dare you spend money on vacation, you should be spending that money on ME.  It's like she believes her dad doesn't have a right to a life or happiness, because she holds him responsible for all her past "traumas" and all her own poor choices.  It's almost like she twists facts and creates drama in order to weave a narrative of, My family abused and traumatized me, I'll show them, they don't deserve to be happy.  Does that make sense in your case?  Maybe your case mixes a bit of everything--feelings of abandonment, resentment and spite.

Yesterday, my H swatted my phone out of my hand.  I was taking a picture of him wearing  a T-shirt with a  a polarizing message. 

He feared I would  use it to blackmail him, by sending it to his friends, which I would never do. I took it to remind myself of who he really is.

I wonder if this means he could escalate to hitting me? He’s never done it, in 22 years of marriage. But I know I can’t rule it out. 

I realize I can’t throw him out, not just because I’d take a big financial hit, but also because he has rights. He’s on the propriety lease. He’s on the deed. Apart from that, where I live, everything is marital property. Unless he hits me and I press charges, I can’t force him out. I’m not leaving, because I have nowhere to go, and I love my home. I’m nearly 80 years old — I’m not looking to change my surroundings at this stage in my life. 

I feel stuck. 

But…

I’m detached, at all times. When his outbursts feel like he’s making me a punching bag, I leave the room. I have an enjoyable life when I’m away from him.  He’s not criticizing and digging into me as much as he used to. Now, I  can actually experience joy and peace at home, even though he almost never leaves the house.  I found ways to block him out. I’ve come a long way. 

I guess I’m just venting, but…

Is swatting the phone out of my hand a sign that he could hit me?  I’m not sure. 

Thanks.  I needed to vent. 
Jazz

Hi js friend. I am sorry you are going through this too. It’s exhausting. So many emotions. I’ve been up since 2:30 AM.

CG4ME and Mutt: Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.

CC43, You are totally on target in your assessment!! The root cause of everything she is unloading about centers on her feelings of abandonment. I recall shortly after my divorce, she made the statement “I want you to marry mom again…”

It’s been over 15 years and I don’t believe she’s ever accepted my divorce and remarriage.

Everyone involved has moved on but her.

Updating this again, mostly because I think it'll help me continue to process and deal with these experiences.

Last post was in August where I mentioned I felt 'resolved'

Around July-August she was pressuring me about 'trying again', and after some effort she work on a non-official disclosure about the betrayal stuff to help validate 'my reality of experiences'.

That kicked off some very useful anger feelings: 'she really did gaslight me that whole time'.

At that time towards the end of August I decided that I would not want to 'try again'. And communicated as such to her.

Response from her was pretty much on-brand, and very much a crash-out.
A crash out that I continue to have to deal with since then.
Kinda want to just dump a bunch of the fallout here:

- She removed access to the disclosure docs, confirming that the only reason she 'owned up' to all the stuff was to try to get another chance with me... (luckily I saved some of the docs before this)

- In October I found out she moved to the apartment building right next mine...yeah

- We share a community through our hobby. End of August I mentioned I would avoid common meeting areas for a period of time (out of trying to be nice, which was a mistake ). When I tried to come back to the common meeting activities, a mutual said she asked if I could give her more time. Luckily I said no and went back to seeing my friends and hobby.
- I was confused at the time why this happened, but came to learn that she has been becoming closer and closer with various community members that used to be more 'my friends'. So guessing she wanted more time, without me there, to integrate with the community more.

- Only my best friends, most of whom are not in the community, know all the relationship history.

- It's annoying, but basically I have proceeded to do nothing about all of the above. I just try to continue to enjoy my hobby and my friends and 'erase' her presence from my vision.
- I also don't think I should really talk to community members about any of this. I've definitely thought about it, and thought about blowing up her whole life, especially since I have the disclosure docs , but .... yeah.... not doing that.
- I guess I kinda understand now when folks would talk about being triggered when sharing space with their abusers.

- She no longer does the blog posts, but occasionally I check her Pinterest (yes I know, don't come at me plz), and a month ago she added a section on 'healing from narcissistic relationships'. So yeah I'm a narcissist now. I'm the bad guy in all this .

- However, I don't doubt myself or my truth or my narrative anymore. And PLEASE READ the gottman couples therapist who was preaching to us about 'subjective reality' while I was still in crisis mode from betrayal trauma... hell naw.

- But yeah, all of her actions and narrative warping etc. I think the common theme is just whatever helps her cope. It's a bit sad I think but at her age she's been through a lot of failed friendships and a lot of failed relationships. A lot of hurt people on the other side. Over a year ago she said during a make-up after a fight "can't you see? I've been dealing with this my whole life".
- I think when you're in that deep, a lot of the patterns/traits/fights/etc. are all just survival mechanisms, helping keep things together, and the scary stuff at bay.

- The lack of closure or 'justice' is annoying and continues to frustrate, given the shared spaces and people. The false narratives are annoying. Time helps care less.

- In general though, I'm one million percent happier and more at peace compared to the turbulent times being in contact with her. I feel like myself again and my friends can feel that.

It's really strange sometimes looking back on last year. Some of the memories don't feel real. Very much a pivotal, life-altering experience. Now I know, I feel it in my bones.

One of my closest friends was pretty blunt during the whole thing and kept saying I shouldn't be in that relationship etc, but I kinda had to still go through it on my own time and make sure I learned what I learned. Even so, I'll still put this out there:
- If you are suffering in similar ways: de-tach and leave. Your time is so so precious and it is so so finite. Life will not end when you leave, it will begin.
Frieren Season 2, Episode 1: It's okay to run away from a scary monster.