Some time ago, I received an email when someone in my mother's FOO hit "reply all" instead of "reply". At first I thought it was about BPD mother- discussing mental heath issues- but reading it, I realized that they were discussing me, and how they came up with these ideas, I don't know how they came up with that but most likely because they assumed the difficulties in our relationship were because of me, not her.

This created some distance between us, because, I was embarrassed in their presence. It's hard to be around people who think you are disordered. Later, BPD mother got angry at me and they didn't communicate with me.

Then, BPD mother, in what was a push pull, I think, tried to smooth over communcation with them. She forwarded me a group email with a topic of interest to the family- and asked if I was interested. I looked at the email list and saw that I was not on it. So, I replied- no, I wasn't included.

They later realized more about my mother's behavior and reached out to me. We have reconnected. It's better, but still difficult, as now there's been distance between us and I still feel wary.

I don't believe he's only looking for friendship either. What gives me caution is this indirect way of asking you out and also it's insulting. Taking someone out for dinner to test the food before you take someone else out is already putting you one down.

IMHO, someone who wants to take you out to dinner will ask, directly. If he cares about you, he wouldn't make this comment, he'd know the restaurant was a good place. It does sound like he's joking a bit but on your part, if you accept a less than acceptable place to eat, he then knows you accept less than kind treatment. By acceptable I don't mean it has to be an expensive 5 star restaurant but some place he's been and likes and thinks you'd like it too.

"There's a great Mexican restaurant nearby- want to go get something to eat sometime?" is a casual, yet direct way to ask.

Someone who respects your boundaries wouldn't push the "no thank you" to his dinner invitation. That he keeps pushing it, tells me he doesn't. I don't think he's a good choice for a "just friends" either.

Seeing what you don't want here can also start you thinking about what you do want in a potential friendship or relationship. Direct and clear communication, respecting boundaries, to name a few.

Imagine you meet someone who you would like to get to know better? And he asks you to dinner, directly.

I'm not single but if I were, I wouldn't go anywhere in someone's car or accept a dinner invitation right away from someone I don't know well. I would reply, directly- I'd like to get to know you better but I prefer we meet for coffee first. If he respects that boundary-  pick a place, drive there with your own car, and it's coffee only until you have checked him out, and feel you know him better.

This is an insightful post, and it also can tie into the other thread by PearsBefore about what traits in a person seem to predispose them to being in a long term relationship with someone with BPD.

I think it's possible to be initially attracted to someone with BPD, but have that not lead to a long term relationship if there are incompatibilities, but some people who are inititially attracted to someone with BPD stay longer. Why?

From what I have read, who we attract and who we are attracted to is a result of many factors, and some not conscious. Our family of origin dynamics is one influence. If somene grows up with family dysfunction, a person who has a disorder may feel "familiar" to them, and they may not see the red flags as different.

You have also identified aspects of your own personality that somehow the situation you had fit an emotional need of yours, even if it was a dysfunctional one.

Another factor that is not conscious is boundaries. If someone has emotionally healthy boundaries, they will feel a sense of discomfort around someone who doesn't. Pairing up with that person for the long run may be a result of both people having poor boundaries. Boundaries can be too weak or too strong.

I think it is very wise of you to explore your own succeptibility to the previous relationship, doing the work of your own recovery, so that your feeling of a "match" with someone is different next time. I have read that if someone ends a dysfunctional relationship without doing this work, they could be more succeptible to another similar relationship. Doing this work can also be beneficial to you in general.

The Karma analogy is interesting. I think it's a universal concept to many religions although western religions don't discuss it in that term or context. As you say, it's not a system of reward- do good things, get good things back or vice versa in the immediate sense. It's more of a recognition that there's a higher order in the universe than we are, and that we don't know the big picture, we don't know the ultimate justice,  but we should do our part to put some good into the world, to the extent we can. It may be a different view than in the western world but it is not incompatible with western religions that recognize the higher wisdom and order of the universe as belonging to God.

This is not the same as natural consequences. Some things we don't control but we do know that actions have consequences.

It's recognizing that we don't have the power to change another person, only ourselves and that we are responsible for our own behavior. One is that, if we enable a person's behavior, that behavior is likely to increase. So we can do things that contribute to dysfunction.

What can appear like "helping" someone is actually self serving if we are doing it with the intent to change them or gain a certain response.

With the post by PearsBefore- this discusses some attributes of people who may be more inclined to stay in a long term relationship with someone with BPD. Labels don't tell the whole of a person and someone can have traits without completely fitting a label, but if the attributes lead to insight and personal change, there's a use for them to give us ideas about ourselves. Someone may find they have traits of all, some narcisism, some enabling, some being socially less savvy,  without the entire labels fitting them and still want to work on these traits.

You've identified some traits in yourself that you wish to change. I think working with a counselor who can be objective and help you through this process is a good idea. One doesn't have to have something "wrong" with them to decide to work on personal growth.

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You will find frequent mention of BPD "FOG" on this site and elsewhere.

• Fear ... of threats, pressure, intimidation, disparagement, more ragefests, etc
• Obligation ... the years in the relationship don't make it easy for us to step away and observe the dysfunctional relationship objectively
• Guilt ... if we decide the relationship is unhealthy, since we are indoctrinated by childhood FOO or the relationship's history "It's All Your Fault!"

This is a peer support site.  We've walked in your shoes; we've "been there, experienced that".  There is immense collective wisdom here in the posts, topics and various boards.  We can share communication skills that can address some of the discord in your lives, much of it you will have already heard from your therapist.

We can also confirm that you can't "fix" your spouse.  It appears your spouse is trying to work on her issues just as you're working on yours.  We don't sugar coat here, well, not too much.  It may be that your marriage doesn't have a healthy, functional future.  What you decide for your future is your decision and yours alone.  We are remote and anonymous peer support and not here as experts.  That is why we urge you that seeing therapists is good for both of you, no matter the end result of the relationship.

Whether you decide the relationship does or does not have a future, I would caution you about the inclination that having children might save the relationship.  While children are wonder blessings, they do not fix troubled or dysfunctional relationships.  Rather, having children vastly complicates everything... whether the marriage continues or it ends.

My story... I had been married for over a decade and thought that my increasingly troubled spouse would find happiness if we had a child.  Frankly, I was desperate but clueless.  After his birth she grew apart from me and became more troubled.  I did not realize it at the time but, upon looking back, I believe my morphing from just husband to also a father was a huge trigger for her.  (Both her parents were disordered.  I can only conclude that once I became a father, she was reminded of her abusive stepfather.)  Our home life with a child didn't improve, it worsened even faster than before.  So when our marriage did implode within a few years, the police, social services and courts were involved.  Since we were parents, there were the added custody and parenting aspects and years of agency intervention that made unwinding our marriage vastly more complicated.

As you can tell, I’ve been posting quite a bit, and also reading old posts by user 2010 which have been extremely enlightening. I think I am at a stage where I am ready to ask some difficult questions of myself about why I sought and remained in such a harmful dynamic, what the interaction (not a relationship) represents for me now, and how I can avoid it in the future.

I’ve particularly appreciated 2010’s remarks about a common (especially) western misunderstanding of karma as a law of reward and punishment as opposed to cause and effect. I did not deserve the lies, manipulation or controlling behaviour. Experiencing these things was not a punishment for being ‘bad’. However, there were actions I undertook which contributed to causing or allowing these things to happen and a negative interaction to develop.

These actions were based in beliefs, patterns, narratives and worldviews that I had and probably still have, and which it is now the time to scrutinise. One is quite a grandiose self-perception. For example, I had an idea I could change or influence another person who lacked integrity, to the point where they would have integrity.

Prior to our relationship, uBPDx acted in ways that were extremely contrary to the values we both nominally shared and which were supposedly the cornerstone of our relationship, yet I believed that through the relationship we could transcend these patterns. To be fair to me, uBPDx initially represented themself and their history as being quite different from what it actually was, hiding some aspects that significantly lacked integrity. If I had known this from the start, I would never have entered the relationship.

However, once I learned about the discrepancy/ misrepresentation, my response was first a toxic expression of anger at the perceived betrayal; and then, after we made up (re-idealisation), to believe that together, we could both somehow change things so that uBPDx could really become the person they had misrepresented themself as.

This choice reflected my own denial and neediness. I was lonely and isolated and didn’t want to face the evidence this seemingly perfect person was not all they seemed. It also reflected an unrealistic, ‘love conquers all’ narrative. People cannot change and develop integrity based on an outside influence, integrity is something you develop within yourself.

There is also grandiosity – the idea that *I* was so special that a person who had previously acted without principle would, though knowing me, become someone different. There is a degree of narcissism here (not NPD, just the traits, which can be healthy, but in this case were not).

Letting go involves relinquishing the idealised, all-powerful vision of myself that was mirrored in uBPDx’s eyes during the ‘good’ times. Which was quite an intoxicating vision! And is quite difficult to relinquish, even now. Accepting that the interaction (not relationship) was based on falsities is one thing, accepting that the ideas and hopes it was premised on were also false is another, and quite difficult. I think it is something I need to do so I do not simply go out and replace the uBPDx with a similar relationship.

It is important to communicate with children at an age-appropriate level.  There are several cautions for doing so.

Imagine if you share "BPD" or other specific terms.  It is almost a given that at some point that anyone - whether adult or child - might repeat it to the disordered parent.  And you can guess how that would be received.  And a child may not be able to weather the response.

Mental illness is hard for even us adults to comprehend.  That sort of non-logical behavior just doesn't make common sense.  So children will do better with examples familiar within their frame of reference.

Nearly two decades ago there was a booklet written that was written for minor children, using simple terms, examples and ways to deal with persons prone to periods of poor behavior.  It is listed on our Books board and the booklet is named An Umbrella for Alex.  It is well suited for a parent or therapist to cover and discuss the material.  The story reassures affected children that they did not cause nor are responsible for a disordered parent’s volatile behavior.

There may be other resources for children but this is one I recall.

Ebb, from your posts here, it sounds like you are quite clear in yourself that the right thing to do is to end this relationship, but feel paralysed or struggling because of the pain this entails.

How does this line up with expressing thoughts to your partner about 'not being ready' to have kids? That sounds like quite a different trajectory - that you still see a future in the relationship.

I assume that there is a family text chain I've never been invited to based on my brother letting strategic, short truth bombs out regarding texts he received from various relatives followed by his smirking. One part of me doesn't care but the other part does. I asked a cousin to let me know important news after our cousin passed away and my brother failed to tell me until after the funeral. He wanted me to look bad for not attending. There was a more distant cousin who passed about the same time. I knew about it and wanted to go to the funeral. My brother told me I wasn't invited. I didn't question it but now believe it may have been a lie to make me look bad for what might look like skipping it. True evil.

I have noticed a symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy my brother has which makes his smearing more believeable. It's called a flat effect which goes hand-in-hand with zero to low conscience. He shows zero emotion with a happy, pleasant face. It's not flat like being catatonic but it comes across as calm and in charge. I've seen him lie with this calm demeanor. It's a strange thing to see -- no nerves or fidgeting.  Maybe your sister is the same?

It's good you have some decent relatives looking out for you! If I do my brother has run ahead and smeared me.

Kids are at an age where they can tell when things are off. We fight when they're at school or over text so they don't see much. However they know their dad yells at them sometimes and have expressed how it makes them feel. He is refusing to do things he agreed on ie. appliance arriving tomorrow, now I will have to try to install it myself. How do I explain to these kids why I'm doing this and he's not helping? It's the kind of thing he always does and they will be confused. I don't want to negatively influence their opinion of him, I also don't like feeling like I'm hiding his behavior from them. Feels like I'm protecting him somewhat which feels very unfair. If I say he yelled at me I feel they will side with me because they have experienced it. It would not give me satisfaction, I would hate this for them. Seriously considering divorce at this point, it is quite bad. So they will have questions about that. I don't know how to explain any of this to them but I can't protect them forever.