Hi and thank you for the idea! You know, I have considered that, and that was our arrangement for the first couple years of marriage. I think it suited us much better than living together (especially in a one bedroom apartment). Perhaps I would do it again, but after looking really deeply inwards, I'm also facing the realization that I just don't feel capable or willing to be her romantic partner. I simply can't sustain the emotional turbulence in a healthy way and still show up lovingly in the relationship. What I hope is that we can still support each other somehow, be family of a sort, be friends, I don't know. Seems like a lot to hope for in my scenario, and I know I can't control how she'll react.

My situation was different, at least partially due to how I responded.  At first I stood for my marriage, but over time I realized that it was over and I could still love her as a person...without the romantic feelings attached.  We were married for 23 years (technically 25 since we were separated for two years waiting for the divorce), plus we dated several years before that.  

So I spent almost my entire adult life caring for this person, being there for her, raising kids together, etc.

Like you, we had good and bad memories...but for me the good far outweighed anything else.  And I didn't know what to do with that, all those vacations and favorite restaurants and hobbies, etc.  Then there were the million inside jokes you have with your partner, the TV shows you loved together, the moments in time that the world changed, etc.  How do you just erase all of that and pretend that it didn't matter?

Ultimately, we divorced without attorneys and agreed to a 50/50 split.  The judge even warned my wife, are you sure you want to do this without counsel and waive your rights?  If your husband doesn't do as he verbally promised, the court will have no recourse.  I thought for sure she'd at least think about it, but she declined and said she trusted me to do what's right.  The judge was perplexed but continued.

Mind you, I've never heard a story like that anywhere from a BPD divorce, they're almost always ugly and drawn out.  To me though, making peace with my ex was more important than money and it's what served our young adult kids the best.  

My experiences are basically impossible according to this site, and it's because BPDs explode, we explode back, and it's scorched earth from there on out.  I fortunately was able to take a different path though and I'm very thankful for it.


A BPDs biggest fear is abandonment or being rejected, so you inadvertently made their worst fears come true.  And in retaliation, it went about as badly as it could have.  That's 99.9% of the stories here so it's not like you did anything wrong.  But at the same time here, there's definitely a lesson for you on marriage #3.  It doesn't have to be scorched Earth and a massive legal battle.

Even if you can't work things out, give her the validation that she needs.  That's what I found with my ex, even though it was clearly over, I could honestly say I love you to her and mean it.  I do want her to have a great life and I do want her to find happiness.  It's just so much easier as friends than enemies.


I've mentioned that religion played a bit part in my journey here.  I've tried to avoid talking about that too much since this is a secular conversation, but there's a theme in the Bible indicating that the past is dead.  I've held onto that because we can't change the past, we can't fix our mistakes, and focusing on it can only bring hardship.

Think about it, even if it's an incredible memory, we think, "Why can't life be like that today?"

When the BPDs in my life bring up the past, I'll speak very briefly on it and apologize that I couldn't meet their needs better back then.  I'll say that I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes, and that I try to learn and grow from those mistakes.  But then I'm finished talking about it because I'm not going to dwell on it or try to relive it.  We literally can't do anything about it, so why focus on it at all?  Just apologize and move on.

Your wife might still bring up the past often, but you have to see above that and steer away from it.  That mindset is so toxic for so many reasons and it brings back trauma.  BPDs are remembering their feelings of the bad stuff, not necessarily what happened or who said what.  So apologize for hurting their feelings and let it rest.


I wish you luck and I hope the medical treatments work out.  Just remember that you have a part to play as well and you have more control than anyone over her mindset.  Help her let go of fears and insecurities by letting her see that you're there for her.  It makes a world of difference long term.

Hi CC43,

Thanks for replying. Yes, she is constantly stressed there in her mom's house because of two reasons. One is that she has trouble dealing with the kids without my help, so she ends up not sleeping enough. The other reason is that her mother, who is too controlling, becomes "obsessed with her and the kids," and that makes her feel anxious/stressed. In both cases, she blames me for not allowing her to return home. I have been with our 2-year-old for many days, more than 50%, but I can't bring the newborn because of breastfeeding, and the baby has digestive problems with formulas.

I can't accept her here because she is being aggressive and hasn't started any treatment yet. So yesterday I said, "I can go over there and take care of the kids while sleeping on the couch while you sleep by yourself in the room, but not here." So she only read the last part, "not here," and cursed at me in uppercase text. However, the next morning she said, "I'm sorry; you really don't attack me, so I should not do that."

I need to have some contact with her because of the kids and money and because I'm trying to promote treatments for her, but yes, it helps to keep the conversations at the minimum needed.

In my view, the disorder forces her to seek conflict to feel better, and I'm the only safe target to do that (like you said), but I'm hoping that over time, if I consistently don't engage and step back, then she might rethink her attitude and become less conditioned to do it.

Currently, she has adopted a posture of "You don't accept me as your wife, so I won't be your girlfriend either." But I haven't disputed this view. I have been just waiting for her to drop the attitude so that we can have some warmth from our interactions again, perhaps.

Though she gets angry every day because she thinks it is selfish of me to not bring her back for at least a weekend to help her feel better. But I don't want to put my peace at risk, and I can't be sure if she would keep her word and return to her mom's after the weekend.

I see that she is feeling rejected, and probably I could soothe her with affection and give some reassurance, but I'm not sure if it is right to be affectionate with her while she isn't being with me. I mean, instead of giving my affection for free, I would like her to deserve it somehow. What do you think? Should I try to just give it unconditionally?

It's a reasonable statement if both people were in agreement and cooperating,  but this isn't the situation. I would make some suggestions but this is something to discuss with an attorney and therapist before saying something.

The "we" are going to do this- so we can both ....There's no "we" in this. If this happens, she doesn't want to end the marriage, she wants an open marriage. You don't. This may seem like a nicer way to make your point -but she's going to react to any statement suggesting the marriage is going to end.

Also, if you end the marriage, it isn't to find another relationship now. Maybe later at some point, but to say that, she's going to hear this from victim perspective. It's not something to talk about at the time.

If she goes through with a fling and you feel you can no longer stay married to her, your next step is to make a plan, find an attorney, get advice and a plan in place- for the main concerns- custody, her being on SSDI, where to stay, the rules about who stays in the family house ( so there's no abandonment issue), how infidelity is handled in your state divorce laws. This doesn't mean you just walk out and disappear or surprise her. At some point this needs to be discussed but there's going to be emotions and drama and it may be best to have this planned out.

Before you say something to her, you also need a safety plan in place for you and the kids, and also know how you would handle an extreme reaction. She may need to be hospitalized for her own safety if she threatens or attempts self harm, or becomes violent with you. You would also need to have your finances secured safely as she could clear out any joint accounts.

Get advice from an attorney and a therapist for when to speak to your wife about your plans and how. This would be an emotional discussion.

Whatever you do say, it's best in "I" terms, and to the point. You don't want to blame or shame her- she won't handle that. It's a straightforward "I can't remain in a marriage that isn't monogamous" type statement and then a statement of your plans (as advised by your attorney).

This is a delicate situation. Being "too nice" in a divorce may not be in your best interest but you are also dealing with a person who is mentally ill enough to have qualified for SSDI. She won't be able to jump into the workforce right away, (if ever), so this may involve having a plan for alimony, job training, possibly housing vouchers to partially cover rent (people on SSDI may qualify for other services). Social services may need to be consulted.The attorney can advise here. If she her reaction leads to her being hospitalized- this may be considered as part of the discharge plans.

My best guess is that your wife is more talk than action and she knows your boundary. It may be that she doesn't go through with her ideas, or backs out during the "date". The choice is in her court now, see what happens, but hold off on saying something about separating unless there's enough to warrant having plans made. Hopefully it won't come to that.

I have a list of initial thoughts... longer than I intended.

Spouses with BPD have exceptionally excellent senses, more than just for manipulation and pressuring, cajoling, interrogating, etc.  Likely she will sense that *something* has changed, may sense that you're contemplating a separation or divorce and therefore she may try to race you to filing a divorce case at the court house to claim you're Dr Evil Personified, demand the moon and put you in a defensive posture.  It has happened to others.

One goal should be to seek the best - or "least bad" - temp order, both in your initial filing as well as in the initial court hearing where a temp order will be written.  Why not let whatever happen and have the lawyer "fix" it later?  After all, isn't it just a temporary "temp order"?  Temp order can continue unchanged during the entire divorce case.  (My story... My divorce took two years and though magistrate, lawyers and other connected officials knew there were problems with my lousy temp order, literally no one tried to change it, not until the final decree.)  So think ahead and be proactive with your lawyer in anticipating likely obstructions and proposing solutions well before the court can blunder into decisions difficult to undo.

Focus on the more important issues.  Securing authority in your son's guardianship will probably be top of your list.  Same for your son's various needs and housing.  Ponder how to address sticky scenarios.  For example, if your son resides with you, then stbEx will want to remain in the home since then it will be more likely she will argue to be the one in charge of his care.

Oh, and don't be surprised if any/all your joint accounts are raided.  You would would of course be fair and not withdraw or withhold more than your ethical 50% but pwBPD aren't prone to think in that honorable way.  And after it happens the lawyers would just say "don't worry, we'll fix it when we get to the financial reconciliation at the end of the divorce a year or so down the road"... and then totally forget all about it in the rush to close the case on settlement day.

How the finances are divided, cars retitled, how the home is sold and equity split or residences separated, all those details often aren't finalized until closer to the end of the divorce.  At first, court will focus on the initial basic living & support general framework, then deeper custody issues are wrapped up later.  Last is splitting the assets and debts.  Our lawyers rushed through the last part in what felt like 15 minutes.

This is not the time for our natural inclinations of fairness and being super-fair or super-sharing of information.  Yes, never ever be nasty - behave as though the judge were looking over your shoulder 24/7 but otherwise be aware that your stbEx may be allowed to be outrageous with little or no consequences.  Court will view it as bickering spouses and expect it to reduce after it is over.  Court may not care how mentally disturbed either of you are.  (My court studiously ignored all my ex's antics, probably with that philosophy.)  You won't get credit for behaving well and your spouse won't get much in the way of consequences for behaving poorly.  Sad but generally true.

Also late here. I know of a practice that has an Marsha L adherent program, and the founder is one of maybe 50 Marsha Linehan Board Certified practitioners in the US. They have evening groups but are self-pay only. They will help you submit super bills to your insurance for reimbursement if you have any out of network benefits. As long as you live in a PsyPact state, your son can participate in telehealth with the practice. Message me if you'd like the name and location of the practice.

Not necessarily. Back in 2008 I learned of my wife’s infidelity that had happened a few years earlier. We split up for a few months. During those few months I became close to someone. My wife and I got back together, but there were issues I had with trust, I even doubted the paternity of my youngest child. The feelings I had developed for this other person that was there for me through the breakup escalated, but I eventually got over them. My wife was aware of this, but it actually helped me get over my wife’s infidelity because I realised we are all fallible and can make mistakes.

Do you think knowing this stopped my wife from bringing it up in every argument we had for the next 15 years? No it didn’t. Do you think she used that as an excuse for how she discarded me 15 years later? Yes, of course she did.

I don’t know what exactly you have tried, but is it to the extreme of trying to convince your wife you are in a gay relationship? Because that is quite an extreme thing to do.

At best, the chances of it working are 50/50. My point being, why would you manufacture a situation that has a 50% chance of having the opposite effect desired, and the possibility to completely destroy the relationship through something fabricated out of desperation.

Hi there,

You pose an interesting question.  I have a pwBPD and a pwuNPD in my life, and after several years living in the midst of their high-conflict and chaotic lives, I have a couple of takeaways.

First off, going no contact might be the only way to lessen conflict for a time.  If you read these boards, I think you'll see that the topic of going Low Contact or No Contact is talked about frequently, because people find themselves in a similar situation:  they feel constantly attacked and abused, and no matter what they do, nothing seems to stop the onslaught.  Therefore the only recourse to find peace and regain some sanity in life seems to be going Low Contact or completely No Contact.  The reasons the topic is debated so much include the practical realities of reducing contact (What to do at family gatherings?  What if children are involved?  What if there's a real emergency?), as well as conflicting feelings about love, obligation, responsibility and fear for the pwBPD's very life.

Of course, going no contact isn't feasible with shared living quarters, and people might reach a crisis point where they decide that leaving the home or asking the pwBPD to leave is the only viable option.  That critical juncture might arise because the pwBPD threatens or commits violence, constantly hurls verbal attacks or is otherwise acting in an abusive manner that has become intolerable.  It happens when "walking on eggshells" turns into "walking on landmines."  So yeah, there comes a point where there's an escalation, and the abusive behavior is unrelenting, leading loved ones to take drastic measures.  Why?  Because nothing else has worked.  No matter how much love, reassurances, bail-outs, concessions, therapy and boundary setting there has been, the pwBPD's behavior makes the home intolerable.  If you read these boards you'll see that this sort of situation is precisely the one that drives people here looking for answers!  And it's not as if they aren't trying.  If they are here, my sense is that it's because they really care, and they are trying their hardest, but they are despondent because nothing seems to work.  The thing is, for a relationship to work, both people have to try.  It won't work if you're the only one trying and the pwBPD has given up.  Unfortunately, you can't compensate by trying even harder.  Your partner has to work at it too.  She might be determined to life a life of misery, and she can take you down with her if you let her.  You might have to decide to save yourself and your kids.  You know that analogy of the frog in water that gradually heats up to boiling?  Is your home near the boiling point?

Another takeaway I have is that the pwuNPD in my life is just plain argumentative.  He is wired for conflict.  He finds problems and conflict absolutely everywhere:  with family, (ex)friends, work (until he gets fired), police, people he hires (and fires), neighbors, etc.  It's as if his life revolves around conflict.  He FEEDS off of it.  The police know about him and keep a fat file on him.  I guess it's no surprise he is trained as a lawyer, because he likes arguing!  He likes beating people into submission!  You ask, How to stop being attacked?  My answer is that you basically can't stop an attacker from attacking, short of a restraining order.  That's what it took for the pwuNPD in my life.  But the reality is, it was impossible to completely avoid contact alltogether, because of the children.  At some level there's continued interaction around visitation and child support.  I think he views that as a window of opportunity to "attack" the "enemy" (his ex wife).  My opinion is he will never stop attacking, because it's his nature, he likes it and in a bizarre way, it's working for him.  I think the only way of "tolerating" his hostility and personal attacks is to minimize contact, and communicate only using BIFF--being Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm.  In other words, don't respond with emotional content, stick to facts (e.g. logistics) and don't give him anything he can criticize or latch onto, let alone debate.  If he's just "spamming" with false accusations, empty threats or snide remarks, then I'd say, delete the spam because it is spam.

But maybe you're thinking, but CC43, my loved one with BPD isn't that vindictive.  She can be loving.  She's just unstable sometimes, and she's a bit paranoid and petulant.  She takes everything the wrong way, and she lashes out with bitterness.  I love her deeply, but right now she sees me as the enemy.  I'd say, yes that can happen, she's painted you all black.  And maybe since she's not living with you right now, she's not benefitting from your constant emotional/moral/logistical/financial support.  She's thrust in the "real world" fending herself, while lacking the emotional fortitude and mental toughness to handle it.  Without really knowing much about your situation, I'd venture a guess that your loved one is feeling more stress right now, and she's taking it out on YOU.  That's very typical with BPD.  The lashings out, passive-aggressive behaviors and hostility usually amp up whenever she's feeling stressed out, because she lacks emotional coping skills.  My take is, her behavior probably has little to do with you at all.  You're just the object of her frustration/fury/anger because you're the closest person to her.  Nobody else would tolerate it.  Does that make sense?

Even before I was separated, I had tried to get counseling for my spouse, then I tried to start counseling for us but she refused so I had sessions for myself.

For whatever reason, probably sheer ignorance of my options, it didn't occur to me to seek counseling for our child.  I recall my attorney commenting, "Courts love counseling" for everyone.  It's been noted here that even if only one parent seeks counseling and the other parent objects, courts will typically consider the best interests of the child and order that it proceed.

I asked because so many arriving here are not aware of their options and for that reason this site shares the information that counseling is beneficial.  We don't know in advance whether someone is aware or not.

If she decides to have a "fling" my response would be something like:

"It's clear now this marriage will no longer work for me and I think we need to find a way of separating so that we can both pursue relationships that are more in line with our desires."

She already knows where I stand on this.  And she already knows it will lead to a breakup.