Hello everyone,

I'm grateful for this community, which helps me process the behaviors of some disordered family members, and provides all sorts of tips to help cope and relate better with loved ones.

As a recap, I have an adult stepdaughter with BPD who has turned her life around with therapy.  She still struggles with "adulting," perhaps partially because she lost a bunch of formative, young-adult years to dealing with BPD dysfunction.  But she's making real progress.  It's hard to see her struggle, but she's the type of person who has to learn the "hard way" sometimes.  I guess I'd say an ongoing issue for her has been avoidance.  She's so afraid of stress, obligations and making mistakes that she tends to avoid a lot of things, to her own detriment.  She procrastinates a lot.  She'll start something with good intentions, but it seems she often doesn't follow through.  She gets discouraged very easily, and she seems to get confused by or hung up on the pesky details of real life.  She'll cycle through periods of no contact.  I guess the good news is that she's not completely "derailed" like she used to be.  For the last couple of years, she has managed to handle setbacks much better.

Anyway, I had a little hope this year that she'd join me, her dad, aunt, uncle and grandma for Thanksgiving dinner.  However, she didn't come.  This means she's still avoiding contact with supposedly "toxic" extended family members.  I guess the good news is this:  the day before Thanksgiving, she called her dad and said she wouldn't be joining us, but that she'd celebrate Friendsgiving instead.  I really appreciated that courtesy, because her typical M.O. is to leave us hanging, wondering if she'll show up.  Complete silence from her typically indicates that she's off the rails, as well as being passive-aggressively cruel to her dad and me, as we have bent over backwards, forwards and sideways to help her through the years.  I think the fact that she had arranged for a Friendsgiving is cool (I want to give her the benefit of the doubt--I can never be certain if she's just making things up as an excuse).  Even better, she actually called her dad on Thanksgiving Day, and she took a couple of minutes to wish her aunt and grandma a happy holiday.  Notably, my stepdaughter conversed briefly with her dear aunt, whom she had declared "toxic" in the past.  So that's a huge step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

Even so, I doubt my stepdaughter will make an appearance at Christmas, when her siblings are visiting, because I think she feels upstaged by them.  She's been estranged from them for several years, claiming that they abused her.  I imagine she won't be ready for a reconciliation until she establishes her identity as an adult, and she can adopt a new, more optimistic narrative instead of clinging onto the "abusive childhood" one.  Right now, I think she feels too much insecurity and shame to face her siblings.  By the same token, I imagine her siblings are feeling some resentment, as a lot of family resources and attention have been devoted to their BPD sister.  It might not be the worst thing if she doesn't show up on Christmas Day, just so we can focus more attention on the other adult children.  But I'm certain my husband is fed up with the holidays feeling like a fragile Jenga tower . . . where one tiny wrong move, accommodation or comment brings everything tumbling down into a mess.  I think he just wants to be able to relax and enjoy it.  Wouldn't that be nice?

Anyway, during the Thanksgiving festivities, I had some alone time with my mother-in-law.  I confess I've never felt comfortable with her, and I couldn't put my finger on why.  She's intelligent and courteous, and though she's elderly and old-fashioned, she can be engaging when she wants to be.  I know she's not very comfortable leaving her home, and I completely understand that in someone her age.  But that shouldn't be a reason for my unease with her.  After talking with her for an hour, it finally hit me:  our personalities are complete opposites.  She's a dreamer, and I'm a doer.  During our conversation, she was talking exclusively about fantastical things:  winning the lottery, getting married again (at 80+, after more than five decades being single), moving homes, hosting parties, starting to paint again, selling artwork at galleries, playing music professionally for the first time.  Since I'm a doer, my default inclination is to ask details about these musings, with the notion of helping devise a plan and considering how to overcome obstacles.  But then I realized, she has no intention whatsoever of making her dreams come true; she just enjoys dreaming for its own sake.  Meanwhile, I'm thinking, it feels ridiculous to fantasize, and desire such unrealistic, sometimes wasteful things (especially the lottery); the entire conversation was frustrating for me, because from a practical, doer's perspective, failure and needless expense are guaranteed.

And then another realization hit me:  my BPD stepdaughter resembles her grandma.  She's artistic, and she's a dreamer too.  Over the years, she's dreamed of doing many things:  becoming a model, an artist, an internet influencer, a huminatarian.  She's dreamed of moving abroad, moving to a big city, volunteering in Gaza(!?!) too.  But most of the time, it seems she doesn't take any concrete steps to fulfill her dreams, let alone consider safety or logistical details.  Sometimes I think she has no clue how to go about this.  Or maybe she just doesn't have the energy or focus.  Perhaps she never had any serious intentions in the first place, because for her, it's nice just to have dreams?  Or maybe it's a refelection of BPD, as she's plagued with self-doubt and an unstable self-image.

Given my stepdaughter's relatively young age, I used to think she could make some of her dreams come true, at least partially or tangentially.  For example, she won't be a supermodel, but maybe she could find work in the fashion arena.  It's really hard to make a living selling artwork, but maybe she could work in a field that uses artistic skills, such as design, marketing or teaching.  Perhaps she could pursue modeling or artwork as fun hobbies, side-hustles or in a volunteer capacity.  When I talk with my stepdaughter, my natural inclination as a "doer" is to analyze, plan and execute.  Sometimes I've given her ideas about where and how she could get started.  But now I'm thinking, maybe she just likes dreaming for dreaming's sake.  She doesn't really want that life, and she doesn't want any help to achieve it, either, because being a "doer" doesn't fit her personality at all.  It's too mundane, too hard, too complicated, too stressful.  And come to think of it, all the other people in the family fall more on the "doer" than the "dreamer" side of the spectrum (except Grandma).  Maybe because of this, my BPD stepdaughter has felt "different," possibly excluded.  While everyone else is talking about the stuff they're doing--their jobs, their travels, their hobbies--she might feel left out?  But when she talks about her "fantasies," others might not know how to respond.  Maybe it would be better just to listen, rather than mention pesky real-life details, or offer to help, even if that goes against natural instincts?

Just my reflections on holidays and relational dynamics with BPD in the midst.  I hope the American contributors here had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Lodi,

I have a lot of experience as the "favorite person" as well as the "villain." I hope that something that I write about may help you to understand a little bit better. Take what's useful and leave the rest. 

My person with BPD is my step-daughter. Her mother also has BPD, and has treated me and my husband terribly, including trying to alienate their kids from us. When my person started to really push against her mom, she clung to me for support. I didn't really understand how BPD worked or that my person/her mother had BPD. It felt really good that she actually liked me after years of trying to get close to her. I think that we validated each other in some ways. I didn't talk badly about her mother but I would listen and affirm that she was going through some tough waters. I also told her that it's difficult to parent teens and that parents and teens often see things very differently. I tried to help her think about different ways of responding to her mom that might be more effective. I didn't really see my person's role in what was happening and I probably affirmed that unconsciously. I'm wondering if that's happening with your other family members. It feels good to be the special, loved one. Do you think this might be happening? Are they making you the bad person so they can be the good person? [Read about splitting/all-good, all-bad thinking; Karpman Drama Triangle/triangulation]

Then as I started to see a little in terms of what I now know are BPD characteristics, I started to suggest ways that she might contributing to the difficult relationship with her mom. This caused tension between us. Then she started the whole "if you don't completely agree with me on everything, then you don't love or support me." This was long before the BPD diagnosis, and me learning about BPD. I didn't know about JADE responses then. Me not being in 100% with her perspective made me the enemy. I'm wondering if thus might be in play in your situation. Do you think anyone in your situation may be trying to keep the peace or might be fearful of becoming the villain? [Read about loyalty tests and emotional blackmail; JADE-Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain; boundary setting]

I went back and forth between the favorite and the villain off and on for several years, depending on who she was most angry with at the time. She was never close to her dad because of all the parental alienation. She and her mother both worked hard to turn me against my husband. They made accusations that he had abused the mother, that he was a sexual predator, that he was abusing me, etc...  Extended family believes that the ex was the abuser and I have seen her emotional abuse in person with the kids and my husband. If any of this had been true, the ex would have brought them up in the custody hearings, which she did not (although there were plenty of other unproven & disproven lies brought up that went no where).  I shut down the ex pretty quickly by saying that if she were so concerned about abuse that we could get a guardian ad litem involved and we could do a home study to help the courts to know what the healthiest environment for the kids was (we shared custody). she dropped accusations against him to me immediately. I have had no contact with her since then except at rare family events focused on the kids. My person off and on would try to turn me against her father (who she trusted just fine when she wanted something from him or she was on the outs with her mother) and I just had to keep saying that I had never seen the kinds of behavior from him that she was telling me about and asked her to point out specific instances when he had ever engaged in abusive behavior with me. I'm wondering in what ways that triangulation may be happening in your dynamic and how various involved people could avoid colluding against each other and engage in reality based responding if triangulation is happening. [Read about: triangulation and coalition-building; DARVO-Deny, Attack, Reverse victim and offender ; non-collusion and reality-based responding].

My therapist has helped me to see that a healthy relationship with my person is different from what I really want. For now, having a close, trusting, affectionate relationship is not an option. For my husband and I, a healthy relationship establishing firm boundaries with our daughter and making sure that our marriage is strong. We can't let BPD toxicity destroy our relationship with each other. We don't always agree on how to respond to our daughter but we trust each other, express our concerns to each other, and give each other the space to make the decisions that each of us thinks are best. I think this is working for us in a way that may not be so easy for you because my husband has had years of therapy related to his ex's BPD and I have a lot of professional background and experience in human development, including social emotional development and challenges.

We are now at no contact with our daughter and I'm mostly at peace. No more daily/weekly toxicity and chaos. I miss who she can be and I love her. I want her to be happy. I want her to get what she wants from life. I'm not angry with her.  I mourn the loss of a "could have been" relationship, but the toxicity that she currently brings into our lives is unbearable.

She went no contact because we set boundaries with her about moving back in with us (she's 25yo) when she had no other options. Our only boundaries are that she keep engaging in mental health support and taking her medications, that she actively work on being substance free (support meetings, not smoking weed and drinking in our garage all day), and that we have a peaceful house. She told us that she was not going to kiss our as$3$ for a place to stay. We helped her find a long term homeless shelter for people with mental illness. She got kicked out of the first for being difficult and now she's in a different one. It breaks my heart and I worry about her but we're learning that this is her choice and her journey.

Family dynamics can be intergenerational. When a child grows up in a family with dysfunction- it's the "normal" they know. They, then may repeat these patterns as an adult. While you may see the dysfunction in your H's family- they may have grown up in this too- and don't see it themselves. Other family members might not have BPD themselves but have learned behaviors. It's also not only in families where someone has BPD. Changing this pattern may require someone going to therapy and learning new behaviors if they are able to do that.

One common pattern is Karpman triangle dynamics. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Another is where there's a person with a disorder, or addiction, and other family members are enablers. People who are enabling the person assume they are helping them but they may also be enabling the person's disorder.

I think you are correct about not wanting to rock the boat in this close family as you would be seen as the one being disruptive. My BPD mother's family would rally to her side rather than to consider other possibilities.

We can't change another person, and this also extends to other family members too. It's understandable that you are concerned this situation may interfere with your H's working on himself. For someone to do this work, they, themselves, need to be motivated to do it. So, family or not, this is his work to do. So while his family may be an issue in him doing this- your H is the one who is responsible for his own therapy. There are two sides to this- while it may appear his family is ruining the last shot- he also is a part of this- they aren't to blame entirely. Just like he's a part of the situation- so are they and they will continue to be his family. I hope for all of you that he does the work but it will ultimately be up to him.

After a split me and husband are trying again. This really is make or break and I don't expect it to be easy or for everything to change overnight, but things just can't go back to the way they were. The issue I'm having at mo is my bpd husband is waiting for more therapy and lowered his meds by a lot. I have put some boundaries in place to protect both myself and our son, BUT his family constantly make me and son out to be the villains and husband the victim. I see no point in arguing as drama is the end result they want but it's almost undoing any of the work and behaviour changes we're trying to make.

It's a constant battle of, why are u trying to change him, maybe u need to change. Everything I'm trying not told tolerate anymore, they make our to be normal. It's a complete dysfunctional family, most of them with multiple partners under the same roof all competing for attention, and everything is flipped on its head and they are always the victims. They do the most cruel, heartless and abusive things to their partners, then all black each other up and claim that they're the ones being mistreated, and I'm pretty sure they actually believe it too. They're a close family so I don't want to come between them, just don't want this to ruin our last shot. Any ideas?

Sancho,
I've reread your post several times. I'm just beginning to believe that I can allow myself to  have fun and not feel guilty because my son suffers. I'm trying anyway. I love him very much but I need to start doing things differently because my help isn't helping. And my anxiety  is hurting me. I am thankful this community is here. I know I need just as much help as he does. I've started therapy, and am doing lots of reading. So far he wants to keep on his path.
I will be practicing the three "C's"

Hi CocoNR
I have been going over your dilemma in my mind quite a bit. It's one of the hardest aspects of BPD - being placed in a corner all the time. Your situation is just one example of the way we can find ourselves in this situation -dealing with utter chaos if we are involved or connected or coping with deep anxiety about our adult child if we cut off contact.

I am wondering whether putting DD in the corner might be helpful for you. I am thinking along the lines of a text that says something like:

‘Our texts are getting nowhere DD. You need to get and accept treatment. When it gets to the point of your outbursts attracting the attention of the FBI, you should realise things are seriously wrong.

I will not be in contact until I have proof that you are accepting treatment and that you give permission to your treating doctors to allow me to talk to them. I will check my messages each Friday to see if there is one from you with the contact details of your treating doctors.
 
I love you and hope you can accept that you are seriously in need of help.’

It most likely is not going to help but it does put the ball back in her corner. I feel the bipolar might be on the money – simply from the information you gave about DD hardly going out in over three years at one point in time. There are helpful treatments for bipolar, so trying to get DD to accept it is about all you can do.
It needs to be thought through of course. How  would it be for you to ignore any message on a day other than Friday etc.

You are deep in cognitive dissonance – on the one hand your head and lots of people are saying close the door. On the other hand your heart is pulling at you because this person is your child – not theirs.

There just might be a middle path – and that is what my mind has been going over. Is there, do you think?

Hi and welcome.

If you've read the many posts here you'll see her actions are pretty standard for someone with BPD. Most of the time they themselves don't know what they want and they can switch very rapidly between wanting to know you and then wanting nothing to do with you, no matter how well you've treated them. It's all part of their illness and their distorted way of seeing things.

Sometimes by leaving them alone we're doing the wrong thing - as they want the attention - but they can also feel overwhelmed if we contact them too much, and this pushes them away even further.  BPD is often a no-win situation where everything we do is misunderstood, no matter how well intended. It really is very frustrating, as we've all found.

A middle approach would be the most logical action; let her know you're there for her but don't keep messaging and drive her away.  Bottom line  is.. she'll only come back if she wants to, and that might be just on a whim and you could - and probably will - have the same thing happen time and time again as BPD is an extremely repetitive illness as they're stuck in a 'love you / hate you' cycle.

If you're happy that you've done all you can then after you've reached out you'll just have to wait and see what happens. It's impossible to predict a BPD's actions but we can all hope for the best.

Best wishes, keep us informed of any developments, we're here for you.

Hi CocoNR,

I have been LC a few times by choice with my udd over the years. Currently we are NC by her choice.

I dont think that you should feel guilty about limiting your contact with your udd. It will give you time to give your brain a rest. Ultimately you need to protect your own mental health which is probably what your husband is also concerned about as often we seem as parents of pwbpd to exist is  a state  between worry and panic that we can never allow ourselves to switch off from.

If you are considering NC You could start out with LC by switching off your phone for a few hours per day or letting it go to VM for a while. Sending her a text saying that you are unavailable between certain hours may be useful so she knows that you havent abandoned her. You will still worry I can guarantee you but you must remember that you are doing this for you. Taking 100 calls a day from anyone  is really too much to deal with.

I also think that all threats of self harm and harm others should all be taken seriously and reported to the police.

Hi Uddermutter 123,

I remember your post about the gift for your gs and Iam so sorry that things have not improved.

I have a similiar experience of my udd backing out involving my GD which hurt me very much.

GD had a sports day coming up at her school which udd invited me to infront of Gd. As the day approached I arranged to take time off from work and contacted udd via text about the time and where we should meet.... No answer. I called her again several times as I didnt want my GD to think that I couldnt be bothered to show up after I had agreed to be there...No answer, so I sent udd one last text about it and told her that if I didnt receive a reply I wouldnt text her again about it....No answer. It hurt me tremendously especially as I knew that my Gd had told me that she was really excited for me to be there.

My later thinking was that either my udd did this on purpose just to hurt me as I had seemed too excited when she invited me. Maybe it was a just a  mindgame,  or  I was just a backup plan as she had something else planned for that day and I was to take her place and it had fallen through.  Either way it hurt a lot at the time.

Iam so sorry you havent been able to see your gc especially as he is your first GC and you have missed all the milestones of the 1st year. Iam know longer able to see my 2 eldest GC either but I did have them in my life for a few years and have lots of good memories them, but it was always a tricky road to navigate as my udd showed jealousy and always wanted total power and control over what I said and did with my GC and often told me how useless I was while also wanting me to drop everything to have them at short notice. The youngest Gc udd I have never met and it has hurt a lot less not knowing this child than to be torn out of their lives again.

I think your DIL is jealous of the previous r/s you and your husband had with your ss and spreading negativity about you both to your ex husbands wife is to keep you all at arms length. I think that  your DIL may even have  started a smear campaign about you to s/s mother and that is why her attitude  towards you both has changed. I think that is worth asking her if you have upset her in some way. She actually may be dying to say something to you but may not know how to approach the subject.

I think that your ss had good intentions but couldnt go through meeting up with his father because of pressure from DIL. It sounds like he may be in a very cohesive r/s and is probably too beaten down mentally to go through with what he would really like to do which is to meet up with his father. My guess is that he misses the both of you and would like to reconcile. If this wasnt the case he wouldnt be reaching out to him to just tell you both to stay away.

Keep it in your hearts that all hope is not lost and that he is thinking about you and I agree that sending a little note would let him know that you are still open to re-establishing contact with him when he is ready.

Thankful,

I think you might try to have a talk with your wife when she's calm.  If you confront her in the moment, she's already upset and will probably get extremely defensive.

I agree with ForeverDad, it sounds like your spouse is competing with you rather than partnering with you.  She could be jealous when the children approach you for help first.  I think this is akin to the fear of abandonment that is so triggering for pwBPD--in essence she feels the kids are rejecting and "abandoning" her in favor of you.  It might also be a control thing--she wants full ownership and control over the kids, maybe because she feels she lacks control in all other parts of her life?  Maybe it's an issue of identity--when the kids start to pull away, exert independence or approach you rather than her, she feels like she's "less" of a Mum, and if she's not a Mum, then who is she anyway?

But the way I see things, you are married, and you are just as much a parent as she is.  While you may divvy up some caretaking responsibilities according to preferences and skills, you should have equal say on the important things.  With so many little ones, I think the reality is that the kids need BOTH parents.  It's not the kids' job to worry about which parent to approach for help, or to worry about offending their Mum.  But right now, it seems to me you two aren't on the same page.  It just isn't feasible for your spouse to control 100% of what happens to the kids because she's in college and needs your help.  She needs to learn to share the decision-making and share the joys of parenting as well.  Love should be multiplied, not divided.

I think you talk to her about this.  I'd try not to blame her, but try to develop a shared vision of the family dynamic.  One approach I mentioned earlier--since your spouse appears to feel left out of parenting in the mornings, she could reduce her course load so that she can be awake when the kids are up.  That way, she doesn't have to feel she misses out so much.  She wouldn't have to reduce her course load forever--she could frame it as "ramping up."  Even for a person without BPD, going to college while handling childcare simultaneously is a huge adjustment.  It might help if she had more time to adjust to it, and get back into the practice of doing academics again, just at a more gradual pace.

As for the problem of getting bent out of shape if you comfort a kid at nighttime, I might frame that as, "I put our little one back to bed so that you wouldn't be awakened.  I was being nice and helpful."  Now, she might see that as an affront.  You might ask her, "Why do you think I did something wrong?"  She might fly off the handle and accuse you of disobeying her, excluding her, disrespecting her and her wishes, trying to turn her kid against her, etc.  If she gets really bent out of shape, then I think she's not able to listen to you anymore, and you might need to stop talking.  Nevertheless, you'll have some clues about her distorted thinking process.  But if she's reasonably calm, and if you stay calm, you can insist, you did what was right for the child, AND you were doing something nice for her, too.  I think that deep down, she knows she's being unreasonable.  Just repeat your stance, calmly, reassuringly, "I did the right thing, and I wanted to do something nice for you too," and maybe it will start to sink in.  Maybe not at that second, but sometime down the road.  You see, pwBPD tend to assume the worst, and they see negatives where there aren't any.  Sometimes I think they need help to clarify things, reframe them and learn to see some positives.

I have arguments like this with my own spouse.  He has a habit of accusing me of futuristic things that haven't even happened, like:  "Don't get upset if she's late for dinner!!!!"  My standard response to this is, "Please don't pick on me for things I haven't done."  If he berates me more, I'll say, "I'm not discussing something that hasn't even happened," and I might leave the room to get away.  I say these phrases so often that he starts to see what he's doing, and now he'll back off more quickly, because he sees how he's being naggy, unfair and projecting his own insecurities onto me.  Arguing about things I haven't actually done is just as silly about arguing about how you comfort the kids and let your wife get restful sleep.  But I think the root of it all is deep insecurity, as well as a general feeling of overwhelm and lack of agency.

Another tactic I'd recommend is abundant praise, and pointing out the good things.  Let's say your wife has a restful sleep.  I might say something like, "Isn't it wonderful to get a full night's sleep?"  Or, "The kids are all dressed and ready!  Now they can give Mum a huge good morning hug!"  I guess what I'm saying is that you can manufacture some happy moments and remind everyone how good the day is, just by praising the simplest things.  With my spouse, I try to notice something nice that he does every day, and praise him for it:  "It's wonderful to have a husband who makes such good coffee."  And I mean it.