You have a pretty established track record of him lying and being dishonest so I think your default response to anything he says should be to assume it's a lie, unless you happen to know yourself it's true, or had verified as true.  That applies double if the thing he's saying or claiming benefits him directly; you should just presume he's lying. 

It will make dealing with him easier.  I would even tell him regarding therapy that if he's not willing to share this information with you directly, by that I mean objective evidence of him attending therapy, the diagnosis and progress, then you're not going to even listen to him talk about it. 

He may claim it's private and his therapy is none of your business, but like @ForeverDad said above, he's made it your business by abusing you and claiming he's getting help for himself to justify you staying with him.  If he was honest with you and claimed he wasn't actually going, or just went for show and had no interest in working on himself, what would you do? 


The conduct you described is pretty awful, not just mental and verbal abuse, but physical abuse as well.  and the fact that you tolerated it for so long should be concerning.  That's something for you to work on for yourself, and it's good that you have others around willing to help you on this.  But you don't want to end up in another relationship like this someday, or have this one re-kindle itself... you need to understand why this went on as long as it did. 

I wish there was still an edit button.  I meant in my case, my exW did these things. 

It seems like this relates to me so much and more so futuristic of what I might have to go through. I am at the start of the no contact with my untreated bpd sister and it has been taxing. The thought of going to family functions terrifies me because I am unsure how she is going to react or if she will explode on me. She is a violent sort and it always makes me uneasy. No, she has never hurt me but she does yell and will get explosive. I understand about the parent aspect of it, my mother was in the middle as well but she knows how to stay neutral to an extent, but my sister's claws are so far into her that she is going to believe everything she says sadly. I have distanced from my mother as well. If they were to try to come after my kids I would cut them off too. The kids don't need that at all and I think you were right to be open and honest with them. Let them see and make the decision for themselves and they can stay out of the spiral before they get close to it. If you have any advice for family functions I am all ears because I have yet to cross that path...

So to take it back to the original question in the thread, I think that's the use of calling it abuse. 

That defines it as intentional: it has a purpose, and that purpose is to terrorize another person or persons.  It can be physical abuse, emotional abuse, or verbal abuse, but it's all the same in the end, and has the same end goal of wearing the person down enough that over time they submit to the abuser's demands and put their needs first.  From the standpoint of the abuser, it's even more ideal if they can submit without needing to be told; they instinctively begin to understand what's expected of them. 

the label of BPD - whether diagnosed or not - may be misleading to focus on, since the traits of BPD, can be hapless or neutral.  If you read the diagnostic criteria of it on this site (link: https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder) there's nothing there about abusing others (the word itself only appears in the context of substance abuse by the pwBPD).  A person can have irrational and/or extreme emotional reactions to events, mood swings, etc. but whether they are also be manipulative and cruel is another issue.  Whether this is a result of comorbidity with another personality disorder like NPD or ASPD, or just normal human ego and id out-of-control because of BPD, I don't know.  But I think when you're in the unenviable position of having to live with someone like this, to focus on whether they're unwell, or what's wrong with them is ultimately just an academic question, when your first priority should be responding to their behavior, addressing it, not letting it overwhelm you (and your other family and kids if you have them). 

It seems to me that as disordered as their thinking gets - and I agree they're not entirely all there when they perceive things in a way that makes them the victim somehow, and therefore justifies their rage about them - they're still overall aware of the fact that they're treating you this way and it's wrong, or unfair, or an aberration.  And the distinction I'd make is that they would not treat a stranger the same way (especially a stranger they wanted something from). 

That's why I'd make the distinction between the behavior of a schizophrenic and a BPD; I think we can excuse the former: they truly have no ability to control what they say and do.  a pwBPD does.  It's why I noticed when talking to other people she'd adopt this really fake tone and repeat platitudes she'd hear, as though like "oh, all us girls can understand how it is to have to deal with their husband and his annoying family"... but her behavior toward me and my family was absolutely uncalled for.  I would sometimes be surprised when I'd find old letters or cards they sent to her and see how unhinged her claims were that "everyone always hated her" as justifying her ongoing hostility toward them (and me when I'd defend them).

Whenever she got called out for this stuff, she'd react the same way, lies, anger, rage, etc. Or if she couldn't bully the other person, like the MC we saw for example - complete avoidance. 

She knew what she was doing; it might have been irrational, thinking she could completely control and dominate another person or persons like that, but she was still trying it.  I wouldn't say "she was unwell" because of this.  To me that excuses her behavior. 

I mean, the simple answer is that I loved my wife and I loved our family of four.  Your dad loved your mom the same way I'm sure.  Him and I tried to hold everything together despite having no idea what we were actually facing.

Looking back, my mom clearly had mental illness as well and my father did the exact same thing.  He stayed silent and/or he fled.  If I yelled back as a kid/teen, he'd scold me and tell me to be quiet.  I'd plead my case- "but she said this and did that and it's wrong!"  I never understood why he told me to stay quiet until recently when I realized that I did basically the same thing. 

He was right though and so was your dad.  We all fought to keep the family intact, despite the obvious challenges.  That's what you do when you love someone.

I reached a point in my life that I just didn't want to waste a single ounce of energy on being negative, having the same arguments, etc.  Why?!?  We argued that stuff for almost a decade and nothing ever lasted more than a week or two.  I couldn't see that my ex was incapable of staying in a routine because of mental health, but I did figure out how to avoid the blow-out arguments completely.

Others might ask, was it worth it?  Honestly, yes it was.

I've reflected on this a lot and although our house was completely dysfunctional with 2 BPDs in it, at least the kids grew up at home and the marriage survived into their early 20's.  So while I definitely wouldn't want to return to that life, I am thankful that we made it that long for the kids' sakes.  I would do the same thing over again EXCEPT that I'd seek family counseling to hopefully get my ex-wife and kid more help.  I also would have found this site 10 years earlier and actually understood what I was facing- that knowledge would have been invaluable.

Hi there,

Kudos to you for maintaining boundaries.  I know it can be hard sometimes.  You mention that your adult sibling lived with you, borrowed money and always played the victim.  I bet you tried to help her out, to help her get on her feet again, right?  But the thing is, with untreated BPD, her needs are endless, and furthermore, she's ungrateful and/or mean, and/or blaming YOU.  It's like no good deed goes unpunished, right?

In my opinion, you are all adults now.  You've done enough for your sibling.  You know full well how toxic your sibling can be if you let her in too close.  And your kids know it too.  Sure, mom is "distraught" because she's spent a lifetime protecting/enabling/making excuses for her weakest child, and she just doesn't see how it's harmful to you.  Maybe she can't be happy when her BPD daugter is clearly unhappy.  But you know what?  That's their problem.  I think you stick to your boundary:  everyone is an adult here, I'm staying out of it.  I'm not meddling.

It sounds like your kids know better, too.

Here's an observation for you.  In my family, grandma just doesn't seem to understand that 20-somethings are BUSY!  Yet the reality for most young adults is that they just don't have the time, money or energy to be a caretaker of an aunt's emotional/financial/logistical/housing turmoil.  In my opinion, young adults deserve to focus on forging their own lives.  Maybe they show up to a Christmas or Thanksgiving gathering, and that would be wonderful, but demanding much more than that sounds too needy and whiny in my opinion.  If grandma insists that the grandkids call their auntie regularly, check in on her and help her with domestic duties, I think that's out of line.  Maybe you say something like, My kids are really busy these days, and I'm not meddling in their lives.  Besides, Sis is an adult, she can take care of herself.

Now my guess is that your sis is needy, blame-y and complaining all the time to Mom about how horrible everyone is, especially you, for not being her emotional caretaker.  You can't control that.  Mom is falling for it.  My opinion is that's between them, and it's probably best that you stay out of it.  You can say that:  This is between you and Sis, I'm staying out of it.

I know it's hard, but just remember, if you relax your boundary, things get infinitely harder, right?  You deserve a peaceful life too, you know.

 I have been able to recognise that my sibling was manipulative all my life for the last 15 years or so. Growing up it was a pattern many of you will recognise, pointing our flaws, when I made mistakes. Making me question if I was adopted. As we grew into adults this intensified, but they made sure to keep me in their orbit. As my career grew and I got married with kids always playing the victim, borrowing money, staying with us. When the kids would visit them, telling them they would inherit there house. The thought of my kids being dragged into this cycle was the final straw. I cut her off completely for years.

But then the flying monkeys started. My own mother in tears about it, saying when she was gone I would be their only family, I couldn't turn my back on them. So I opened the door again. This time more guarded, more careful, more arms length for the sake of my parents.

For a few years this seemed to work. Minimal contract. Civil almost friendly at family occasions. Then the nasty messages started up again. I pulled away again, not announced, just pulled away. My adult children recognised what was happening and chose to pull away themselves. One broke contact altogether, one maintains a text relationship, but is guarded. This seemed to work another year or so.

The flying monkeys have just returned. That's what has prompted me to join this forum. I am running out of ways to cope. My mother is upset that the kids don't contact their auntie. She believes my partner and I are controlling them into no contact. They are old enough to be part of the conversation now in their 20s so we have given them full disclosure.

Where do I go from here? I can't cut my mother out of my life, but the distress this is causing her is unbearable. I am also not about to try and persuade my kids to speak to her when they don't want to. I don't want them dragged into this cycle of harm.

I agree- it's something in addition to the physical appearance that is the magnet. I think we learn early on what works to get our needs met, and pwBPD may have different needs and so develop a different skill set to meet them.

People notice attractive people- that's natural. BPD mother was a pretty child and people noticed that. There are pretty children who don't have BPD and people notice them too but perhaps the way they meet their attention need is different for them. All children want attention. It's common to see a small child say to their parent "look at this" as they do a big jump on the playground or show their drawing.

Children have innate abilities and so when they get attention for them, it may reinforce them. If a child is a good reader, or good at sports, gets praised for that, they read more and become good at these activities.

Imaging there's a high need temperment child, who may be more stress for parents and teachers and so doesn't get a lot of positive attention but is attractive and gets attention for that- and that becomes their skill focus? Or they find other attention to be something to work at but being attractive- they just get the attention. That would become their reinforced skill set. This won't create BPD but perhaps that tendency was already there.

To compare Tel Hill's mother and roomate. The roomate was also attractive but focused on other skills, like acting and her college classes, got a sense of accomplishment from these. BPD mother didn't have these other avenues of sense of self and so her attractiveness became her main way of getting needs met. She had poor executive function. She was intelligent and liked to read a lot- but to work at a task that brought a later sense of accomplishment may have been more of a challenge.

My friend's young adult daughter who has BPD also has this "attraction factor".   I have known her since she was little. I didn't notice any problematic behavior then. It emerged as a teen. She has an intense need for attention. In her teens, it became possible to gain attention from boys- so perhaps this is something she did more- so she could have that need met.

One of my BPD mother's needs was that she couldn't tolerarate being alone for long. She needed someone with her. She seemed to not be able to regulate her own emotions and having someone with her in the role of emotional caretaker met that need. This young woman is similar in that need. So perhaps their being able to draw people to them was reinforced for them.