It took me such a long time to stop playing the "what if" game in my mind. 

- What if a day before everything fell apart, I did this instead of that?
- What if I said something different in that final discard to make everything better?
- What if I talked to this person, or that person, and asked them to help?
- What if I did this or said that, or did the other thing I thought of yesterday?

Although all of this feels logical and sound, it's basically the disordered thinking that made our BPD partner fall apart in the first place.  We can't go back, we can't change things, and we can't un-say what was said.  All of that is carved in stone and can't be changed.

The only thing we can actually control is today since tomorrow is not promised.

So what do we do?  We've been under a mountain of emotional stress and we need to find our way back to the new normal.  We do that by prioritizing ourselves for a little while.  Get out in the world and enjoy it.  Pursue old hobbies or find new ones.  Visit friends and family we haven't see for awhile.  Prioritize health and fitness; a healthy body leads to a healthy mind...plus, exercise releases "feel good" chemicals in the brain. 

So we get to it, we start fresh and focus on today.  And somewhere in that process, we actually heal and move on.

One sign of my successful detachment is that I was imagining going back in time to the day of the cheating - grabbing former partner as he walked out the door and saying, don't do this, you're going to destroy everything we've created together.

But why? The act of cheating wasn't the fundamental issue. The dishonesty and selfishness which enabled cheating, were. I could have grabbed him and sat him down and enacted some science fictional scenario where I explained that I come from the future and do you know what's going to happen, it's going to be bad for both of us (there are reasons to believe this has been very bad for former partner as well - likely, in the long wrong, worse than it is for me).

But that would merely continue and reproduce a dynamic where I am his keeper, his caretaker, responsible for his emotional needs and failings. It would solve nothing.

I do not want to turn time or go back.

Thank you for the wisdom everyone.

The thing that has helped most is recognising that my values are my values, the reality is the reality and these do not need to be validated (indeed cannot be validated) by a distorted and inconsistent mind.

As Tom Petty sings, the future was (is) wide open.

so.....I feel like I am really close to making a "stand"; I always offer up A day during the weekend, I have SET plans this weekend, but, am free Friday, thought, I would text that, or thought, leave it alone....

I think this is good insight to your own "co-dependent" - or "fixing" behaviors. On one hand you recognize this "pull" on you, and also at the same time, understand that you need to resist it, that you don't want to be doing it.

From the perspective of someone for whom this was "normal" in my FOO- I have these tendencies and have worked on them. I think it takes some time but the recognition and not doing them is progress. I think at one pont, jumping in to fix your ex-wife's emotional discomfort was automatic. Now, it's not.

The story of the hole in the sidewalk is a metaphor for this progress. It's been posted in several sources- I just picked one.

https://simpleandpractical.com/stages-change-poem/

From my own experience, going completely NC with a person when there are shared family members with whom you do want or need contact with is not possible. Going NC with an ex- when there are no ties is suggested, but in your situation, the two of you are parents, so there's going to be some communication between the two of you.

While the relationship as it was, is no longer- there's still a "relationship" of some kind- as parents, and you have a boundary to limit contact to that role by email. Boundaries don't control the other person. They determine how we respond to when the boundary is stepped over. It's not possible to control what your stbx wife puts in an email. Your part is to decide on your actions.

What was suggested to me by a counselor was to not be reactive - to not jump in to "fix" but also to not react in the opposite direction. IMHO (I don't have experience with divorce but I think this is general advice when dealing with dysfunction) - to get the lawyers involved would be a reaction in the other direction and possibly add to the drama (and the expenses). To not react would be to not respond to the emotional content either way- don't try to fix, don't act on the offense- just keep your responses to be about the children. E-mails are documentation so best to keep correspondance emotionally neutral.

It's not possible to control what someone else thinks or feels emotionally. You can't "fix" your ex-wife's emotional discomfort and neither can you stop or control what she says. This may be a part of who she is, and likely a large aspect of the relationship dynamics between you. Just like it's been habitual to you to step in to "fix" and you are working on changing that for yourself, it's habitual for her to express her feelings to you. This may also be her focus, on her emotional discomfort- and how she relates to people who are, or have been close to her.

I think in time, as you aren't "fixing" now, or reacting, your ex-wife's behavior isn't being reinforced, and so may diminish over time. Or it may not- but you don't have to respond to it. While the emails bring up feelings now- sitting with them, being aware- but not reacting is progress.

Hi Horselover!  Thanks for replying and I'm glad we've given you some things to think about.

You are 100% right, these relationships are often not fair and it doesn't feel like true love at times.  I'd do things for my ex all the time and when she was in the right mindset, she'd do things for me as well and show appreciation.  Yet when she was depressed, all of that stopped and I felt like I was single living with a roommate.  I felt so alone during those times.

I can also understand wanting to shelter the kids from future disappointment.  It's a balancing act for sure, but remember that you don't know why dad didn't ask to see the kids.  Part of it was probably shame- he felt terrible inside and had no idea how to come to terms with that.  Part of it was probably instability- he couldn't figure out what he wanted or what he should do.  He wants the marriage back, but how?  He can't hold a job and he can't support his family.  These kinds of thoughts eat at him and since there are no answers when you're allowing depression to defeat you, he doesn't see a path forward.

The way to defeat depression is to get up, to get moving on in life, to actively work through it until you're not depressed anymore.  BPDs can really struggle to find this mindset though.


There has to be some level of communication- could you write him a letter back to sort of break the ice?  In that letter, you could point out that you still care about him and that the kids miss him.  You could also say that you'd like to find a way to resume communications, but you're not interested in arguing or blaming.  You'd just like to do what's best for the kids in this situation if he's willing to talk.

In the first correspondence, you should keep it goal oriented and try your best to avoid blame.  You know his issues, he knows his issues, so there's no reason to start with that.  This keeps the pressure low and makes it easy to respond.


First off, none of this is intuitive.  If I'm mad at you (or vise versa) maybe we say a few things we shouldn't, but eventually one of us realizes that we were both wrong and we apologize.  Then we forget about it entirely and move on.

For BPD's, they start to become dysregulated and their emotions take over.  Go back to our pretend argument for a second, but add in that someone you cared about passed away that day, your car won't start, there's no groceries in the house, kids are screaming for food, and you were fired from your job via text message.  Then I come to you and say a few ugly things...that argument feels different, right? 

That's more aligned with how your husband feels when he's dysregulated, it's like the entire world is collapsing on him and nobody could possibly understand the pain and frustration he's dealing with.  So he says, "Do this, get that, go take care of this thing....".  But does that solve the actual problem?  No, not at all.  The problem is mental illness and him having a mental breakdown, so getting him coffee or running an errand doesn't fix anything. 

And if you focus on the requests, the stuff he says, then you never get to the actual root of the problem.

Again, this is highly counter-intuitive stuff...we don't just know how to see and react to mental illness.  We learn it over time and we get it wrong more than we get it right.  You can't focus on your husband's words when he's unstable.  Instead, you must focus on his emotions and help him calm down enough to exit the disordered state.


To be honest, most BPD relationships fail for this very point...how do you trust someone that's not stable?  If you let them back in your life, how long until they do the next thing that breaks your heart?

I don't think anyone here can answer this directly other than to say that he is your husband and because you have children, he will be involved in your life forever.  I personally would set the bar low in terms of expectations- can we get to a place where we can have a calm phone conversation for 10 minutes? 

At the same time though, I'd also keep in mind that BPDs recycle relationships.  Eventually he will love-bomb you all over again and act like the best dad in the world.  In the moment it will all be true because he's happy, life is perfect, and he has his family again.  But the other stuff we've talked about here will come into play more than ever- can you make it last by communicating in a different way to help him remain stable?  Can he get serious about therapy and recovery?  There's so many "ifs" there.

For now though, I think baby steps is the perfect recipe.  Find a way to communicate and work through problems in a healthy way.  That's it.  We can figure out what step two is once step one is complete.

Remember that you're responsible for you and she's responsible for her.  That means you should be there for her when you can, but you also have to draw a line in the sand.  If it's good for her, okay, try to help whenever you can.  But not at the expense of your own mental health.  If you're being screamed at, walk away...and try to do so graciously. (I'm sorry, I can't have this conversation right now, it's too much).  But if that's not possible, then just walk away.

If it's abuse through calls/texts/emails, turn your phone off or temporarily block them.  That sounds harsh, but it's actually teaching right from wrong and showing that some things are out of bounds in your life.  Again, I have to remind myself so often that the BPDs in my life are sick...they're not attacking me as much as they're venting their own mental struggles.  It's rarely meant to be personal and so often, they wish that they could take it back afterwards.

For example, you mentioned her going through your phone and trying to find "proof" of you cheating.  That didn't happen in the moment, there was likely something that made her feel insecure and the thoughts had been building for some time.  Maybe hours, maybe days even.  And while her mind tried to rationalize things, her thoughts became more and more emotional.  Before you know it, logic went out the window and it's 100% fear and paranoia taking over.  The "emotional hammer" has struck and you have no idea there's even anything wrong.

Catch this- when BPDs are disordered, they're thinking emotionally and logic is all but shut off.  Anything they say or do is based on their feelings in the moment.  If you argue with them at that time, their feelings take that as rejection and things only get worse.  Never, ever ever defend or argue at this time...either listen patiently or walk away.  Once the BPD calms down, logic returns and a real conversation is possible.

Your job, when you can if the situation lets you, is to help her shift her mindset from an emotional/disordered state to calm and logical.  Because when she's disordered, the words she's saying might have nothing to do with what's actually wrong, she just wants to rant and complain and let all of those emotions out.

For example, whenever my ex got upset she'd go back to the argument, "You've always hated my parents!  You've never wanted anything to do with them!"  (Notice the always/never language, that's black and white thinking in absolutes, a great sign for realizing it's "splitting" from disordered thinking).  And every time, I'd take the bait and tell her how I loved her parents, took them on vacation with us all the time, did things for them, etc.  The argument would rage on and on for hours because I wanted her to realize that she was wrong...but that's futile when she's thinking that way.  She literally can't accept it right then.

Instead, I should have done one of two things. 

One, I could have shown her empathy and calmly asked why she brought that up.  Maybe she's yelling but I'm speaking calmly in a low voice.  I'm showing real concern on my face because my goal is not to win an argument, it's to calm her down because I'm concerned about her.  When I took this approach, the "argument" lasted minutes and it was over.  Because I held my cool and was receptive to her needs, the moment passed and her mind regulated.

Two, if tactic #1 failed or I lost my patience, I should have made a short statement like, "I love you and I don't want to argue.  I'm leaving and I'll call you later."  Everything in that statement is about me to avoid casting blame...I'm not judging or arguing, and I'm making my intentions clear.  Then I have to follow through and actually walk away.

Remember, you're responsible for you.  She's responsible for her.  By taking one of those two paths in every tense situation, you're helping her and you're doing what's best for your mental health as well.  Never fight fire with fire, everything burns in that situation.  And if things get too intense for a time, take a break and limit communication for a few days.  Make it about you and healthy boundaries...I can't do this right now for my mental health.  She will respect it or she won't.

What you're saying makes sense, and I thank you.
I understand it very well, and I also believe it's a way of acting that should be done with every partner, even those who don't have a BPD, actually. It's just taken to a very extreme level with those who have a BPD, right?

What I'm trying to say is that it seems like a bit of a one-sided view of the story, and the risk of getting dragged down is real. Often, this kind of reasoning leads us to give up on ourselves to satisfy the enormous need for attention that pwBPDs have, while what I read is that it's really important to maintain one's personal integrity. 

If a BPD person vents their "hammer on the finger" by insulting me, trying to ruin my relationships with people, undermining my personal freedom or the like, even if I understand that it is the mental illness speaking, I understand the reasons, I understand the difficulty, I still have to hold my ground... I can't change who I am because we would risk going from one sick partner to two sick partners over time.

I understand BPD very well, I love a BPD person, but I want to understand how not to forget about myself.

My partner is part of the low spectrum of the disease: she works successfully, has friends, has no substances abuse, does not have eating disorders or self-harming tendencies and above all she admits that she is not able to control her emotions as much as "ordinary people" (if they exist)

I would like to understand how not to lose myself, how not to sacrifice myself for an illness that I understand but it is not mine, if there is hope with therapy for example

It’s been a long road in a while since I have posted. I’ve now had a domestic violence, protective order in place against my soon to be ex-wife since December.  The only manner in which she can contact me is through a designated email.

The clarity and calm I’ve gotten in the stability and focus. I’ve been able to give my kids has been great.

This one last issue that I want to confront. Her emails are supposed to be limited to details about the kids, just factual. But they aren’t something will come up and she will decide that she needs to frame up her perspective on the issue by describing negative feelings about me, negative conduct imputed to me negative characteristics imputed to me and so on. All of which I’ve heard hundreds of times and responded to in numerous different ways. And don’t get me wrong. Some of her complaints are legitimate. But emails about the kids that could’ve been 100 to 300 words end up being 2000 to 4000 words. 

I’ve asked her to stop doing it. She’s been court. Ordered to stop doing it. For the most part to take the advice that I scan to take what I need and ignore the rest. I compartmentalize much better than I used to. But somewhere inside me, there was still that part of me that response to the tension building of the emails mounting and the increasingly tense language about how I am ignoring and not responding.

So I want it to stop. and I could make it stop by forwarding some emails to my attorney who would send them to her attorney.

Something inside me has me hesitating. I don’t actually wanna do it. Part of me wonders if I don’t really actually wanna cut ties because I’m still in love with the fantasy that was that relationship and this is the final goodbye. Don’t get me wrong. I am not getting back into this relationship. I just find myself wistfully missing my own ignorance. Another part of me wonders if I just feel guilty like this is all the way down to just emails. Why can’t I just do this for her? I suppose I still feel a sense of obligation and guilt. She is still suffering and texted these emails and her suffering is about me and my contact and isn’t there some way that I could answer or respond that would make her feel better? I realize that is delusional.

In a way I’m just putting this out there almost like a journal entry knowing that I need to cut her off because from a standpoint of my own health, I just need it to stop and I have to power to make it stop. The emails have on occasion ruined my day or ruined my mood, and I have found myself snapping at others after these interactions, including my kids.

I have also gotten some very great wisdom and some great framing from this board in the past and maybe lightning will strike again and somebody will frame this up in a way that will help me see this all through.

Thanks in advance for reading and any commenting or help or support.

Thank you all for your replies and insights.

Pook075, I have a few follow up thoughts and questions.

I guess that in regard to my kids, one thing I really struggle with is feeling like I need to shield them from my husband. I know he says he loves them, and he acts really sweet and caring with them when not dysregulated, but the bottom line is that this isn't how I define love. Love means being there for someone, being unselfish, being reliable. So he can send them all the postcards in the world saying "I love you" and "I miss you", but I find it shocking that he is their dad and did not ask to see them for 4 months! I feel like I need to protect my kids from this kind of love, which is more like a transient feeling of attachment or warmth than real parental love.

I'm not saying my perspective is "right" and I understand that my husband has a serious mental illness, but that's how it feels on my end. And if I am honest, that's how his love feels for me. Like he has a warmth or attachment for me, but there is nothing there in terms of the true meaning of love. So while I feel like I can "handle it" (obviously I find it very sad, even though I can accept that this is the reality),  I just feel so terrible for my kids that this is who their father is. I'm also very worried that he is going to ruin them somehow by constantly appearing and disappearing in their lives, so then I think maybe it would just be better if he didn't see them at all.

If I do proceed with a visit (and I most likely will, despite my feelings), as I can understand why there are also benefits to having a relationship with one's father, even if very imperfect, I hear your concerns (and Forever Dad) about having a planned visit scheduled. But then how do I go about this if we can't schedule it? I am totally out of touch with my husband at this point - I haven't talked to him in 4 months, as all communication, if you can call it that, has been through him sending me and the kids physical letters and me leaving him a couple voicemails about things that needed to be taken care of.   

Now, about your suggestion for de-escalating things before I need to leave or hang up, I have never been able to do this. I really commend you for figuring out how to accomplish this with your ex and daughter. I'm not sure if it's because I'm just not as good at doing it as you are (which is entirely possible), or if my husband is a bit different than them. To me, it seems that he does not respond so much to me saying I do not want to hurt his feelings or any sort of efforts to calm him down once he is ramping up. What he does seem to want is for me to do whatever he is asking for. It's more about me following his request than validating his feelings or soothing him. And the problem is that when is starting to get dysregulated, his requests are often things that I can't do or really don't want to do (like for example, once he started losing it because we didn't have a couch at the time in our new place, and he needed us to buy one "RIGHT NOW"). There is one thing he does do when becoming dysregulated that is not a request - he suddenly starts saying he can't fulfill an obligation (ie let's say we were supposed to go out together as a family), and then starts screaming about how he can't do it (the obligation) and it's not his fault because we don't live together. In this case, I'm never sure how to respond, and I hang up the phone or leave. If you have any further thoughts, or suggestions, I would be interested to hear them!

I also wanted to add that my husband himself has told me that when he is dysregulated, there is nothing I can say or do that will stop him except apologize and say I'm wrong and basically do what he asks. It's almost like once he gets the feeling of pressure rising, he wants to lose it to release that pressure.

I was interested in something you said at the end of your post, that my husband is looking for acceptance. And I can't accept him until he is better, and he can't get better until I accept him. I thought about this for a while, as I think this is an interesting point. I'm not so sure I would describe it so much as me not accepting him (I'm not denying that I don't accept him, but that's not the way I would have described it). It's more that I am literally afraid of him. It's like living with a fire that randomly bursts into flame, and it makes me feel so unstable - financially, physically, emotionally, mentally. He knows very well that I am afraid of him, and I'm sure this makes him feel even more ashamed. But how do I accept him "as is" if I am so mistrustful of him? It's not so much that I am judging him as a bad person (again, I'm not saying I'm not at all judgmental, but I don't think this is the primary issue), it's that I can't accept him as is because I am scared to be around the burning fire. So how can I accept him under these conditions, and how can he get better under these conditions?

I always go back and forth in my mind if there is just an inherent problem that can't be resolved - his needs and my needs are simply incompatible, so the relationship just can't work. BPD is so awful -it's like there is no way of winning.

One more thing - Forever Dad, you talked about how therapy might not help for more years. Is there any way to assess at all if therapy is helping within the first few years, or if the therapist is good, or if my husband is doing any work in therapy? Should I be seeing slow, gradual improvements over time, or I shouldn't be seeing any improvements until quite a few years have passed? Or is every pwBPD different, and every path looks different?  All I know, is that when I read stories that people with BPD have written about their healing journeys, there often seems to be a moment where they take accountability and realize their lives can't go on like this anymore. And then they decide to really put in the work to get better. Not to say that they don't slip up after, but the desire doesn't leave them. This has certainly not happened with my husband, so it makes me feel like this is all hopeless, despite him attending therapy consistently.