I'll be a third opinion on menopause and HRT. HRT forms and recommendations have changed over time. BPD mother went on HRT at menopause and due to finding risk factors with that particular type of HRT, they took her off. So I saw her both on it and off it and her BPD behaviors were there in both situations.

HRT has been revised, and newer forms that don't have the side effects from the previous forms are used. I know many women on it. It hasn't caused severe mood swings as far as I know.

What I did see with BPD mother is that her BPD behavior would vary over time. It was always there but less when there was less stress and increased with more stress- normal life stress like moving, or if she wasn't feeling well. If we think of BPD behaviors as maladaptive coping mechanisms, it would make sense there's more at times of stress and less when there isn't.

There was also the tendency to blame whatever external was going on for her behaviors. It's the hormones, it's the move, it's that someone upset her. This is projection and also feeling in victim perspective, and avoiding the shame of accountability and blame.

If she was coping with any stressor with her BPD behaviors- hormone changes could be considered one kind of stressor, but they aren't the cause of the BPD behaviors. Or the reason for her feeling how she feels could have nothing to do with the HRT but she assumes/projects it's the reason.

My guess is that your wife will react emotionally to the discussion on finances. If you do it before she starts HRT- you will then know it isn't due to the hormones. If you do it after, you won't know for certain. However, I agree with CC43- that talking about it to her may not be as effective as taking action with your own finances.

Strange how I started thinking about my ex just a few years ago, after all those years since we broke up.  I never totally forgot her, such is the impact of a BPD relationship, but I never made any attempt to contact her during all that time. Had a great life with other partners who trested me far better so I have no complaints.

Maybe with getting older you think more of 'what might have been' and you look back on your life. I have no doubt my life would have been bad if we had stayed togther, which makes it all the more strange to be thinking about it now.

Possibly I'm looking for the one thing we never get when breaking up with a BPD - closure.  Maybe to hear her say that she made a huge mistake all those years ago and she regretted losing a good thing.  Not likely she'd ever say that though, as apologies were totally alien to her.

This was the part I found utterly impossible to achieve; no matter how much love and care was shown and no matter how far I went out of my way to reassure her, I knew any 'peace' and semblance of a normal relationship was always temporary. I reassure her on one thing, which she would seemingly accept.. only for her to destruct over something else.

Even her family, friends and people who knew us from the many places we went to were unable to convince her I was genuine. Nothing gets through to the BPD mind once they've become fixed on their own thoughts.

It was when she started blaming me for things that I wasn't even present for - like her having a bad day at work, argument with her mother at home, etc - that I knew the relationship would never work. I was never seen as someone who would support her against the world who she should have turned to, in her mind I was always the cause of her problems.

Once you've decided things are truly over, it's vital to stay NC. I almost caved many times but I just reminded myself that if I did, we'd have a week of harmony then the cracks would show again as the cycle restarted.

You have to get out of the 'maybe this time it will be different' thoughts. Without treatment, there will be no difference. The BPD partner will continue as normal but you will be mentally driven down harder than you were before.

With my BPD daughter, every now and then she'll come at me out of nowhere with the most vile stuff.  It doesn't happen very often anymore, but I still have to keep my guard up and prepare for it.

Because once she starts a rant on how I was never there for her, never cared about her, etc. it would be so easy to defend myself or launch into an argument.  I was a good dad that provided and showed up when it mattered.  Instead of arguing though, I'll just listen until I can't take it anymore or she runs out of steam.  When I finally get to speak, I'll ask, "Where did all that come from?  What happened earlier today?"

Sometimes, I get the truth.  Maybe something happened at work or a friend said something ugly to her.  Other times, I get another barrage- the car wouldn't start, I'm broke, my ex reached out, nobody cares about me, etc.  But by not taking that initial bait to launch into a fight, I start to get things I can talk out with her and actually help her calm down.

That's the whole goal here- being able to talk about what's actually going on.

Because what happens is the car didn't start, someone was rude at work, etc.  But the focus doesn't stay on that, it shifts to the people she's closest to and how they're not going to understand how hard her life is.  So we skip the initial talks that she has in her head and advance straight to the, "You're a horrible person that doesn't care about me," narratives that she's convinced are true.

Again, the "fix" is not engaging on that and digging deeper each time.  It can be incredibly hard at times though (as we all know) and sometimes we'll certainly fight back without even realizing what we're arguing about.  It's rarely what they're saying and always what they're feeling...getting that out in the open is nearly impossible though.

Definitely no magical cure; it's more like dealing with someone's phobia (heights, spiders, etc).  They might know logically that the spider is not going to harm them, yet something in their mind screams to panic, run, shout, fight, and 100 other things. 

BPDs go through the same thing.  In their minds, they're the victim of something terrible...which is true (mental illness).  But they can't accept that because of mental illness, so their minds try to blame everyone and everything around them.  What's the most likely problem? The people they're closest to- it has to be them because that explains why they're so mentally unbalanced all the time. 

When they're with someone new (that doesn't realize they're mentally ill), everything feels great.  When they're near loved ones, they feel lousy because real life and all their problems are there.  So why not just toss everything aside and chase the new person since it feels so wonderful?!?

Only, that only fixes things temporarily, because eventually BPD shows up and everything repeats itself.  So this happens over and over and over again.

The fix, if we can even call it that, is to continually build enough trust so things never reach that meltdown stage where everything is thrown away.  Yet, that's the hardest thing to do in a BPD relationship because it takes vulnerability on both sides.  BPDs hide their feelings and often deny where they even come from in the first place.  So it's always an uphill battle.

My BPD ex wife cheated on me and left me for those same reasons- she was happy there, she wasn't happy at home.  But I genuinely believe that she never meant to hurt me and she never had any ill intent; she's just really sick and made some horrible choices due to mental illness and disordered thinking. 

For us to have a chance at reconciling, she'd have to overcome 20+ years of disordered thoughts that I knew very little about.  There were moments when she'd reach out for attention, but it wasn't too long before she scared herself away once again by what she thought would inevitably happen. 

And it sucks, every part of it is horrible, but that's severe mental illness for you.

Make no mistake though, I believe BPDs love unconditionally until a part of their brain tells them to run.  It's exactly like being fearful of a spider or a snake, and their brains are telling them that you're a deadly species.

I will agree with gemsforeyes, HRT is probably not the cause of your troubles.  Yes, it can be part of the problem and it can trigger more troublesome issues but the core issue is the undiagnosed Borderline PD traits.  If she is not diligently addressing those perceptions and patterns, then it's not going to get better - at least not by much - and it could get worse.

I recall that after my child was born, my then-spouse behaved for over a year as though she had postpartum depression.  It was so difficult.  Then she quit breastfeeding and life was so much better for a couple months.  Then one of her friends called her a traitor and the march of ranting and raging continued and life worsened again.  In her case nursing a baby was a factor for a time, but underlying it all was the personality dysfunction. 

Fortunately, your children are adults and so custody and parenting issues so problematical for those of us with minor children shouldn't impact you as you try to separate at least part of your life from your spouse's life.

Hi there,

From a financial perspective, I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd take control of what I can control.  That is, expecting your spouse to cooperate with a long-term, belt-tightening plan probably isn't going to work in practice.  My guess is, she might agree in theory to controlling spending, but when the time comes, she'll continue to spend just like she always has.  And she'll expect you to contribute and sacrifice today, while her increased contribution will be delayed in the future.  And then when the future comes, she'll renege, one way or another--she might argue she never made a deal with you in the first place.  Even if you have a written agreement, she'll probably rip it up, or have some sort of meltdown to force you to relent.  Is that how things have gone down to date?  If so, it's more likely than not that she'll continue to spend carelessly, and not contribute her fair share to the household expenses, no matter how transparent, earnest or reasonable you are.  Financial responsibility takes a lot of planning, determination and delayed gratification, and those are traits your spouse just doesn't have.  But YOU do.

If that's an accurate portrayal of reality, then what you can control is you.  You can make sure the household essentials are covered; anything your spouse ends up contributing is gravy.  You can completely cut out non-essential expenses for a time (start with six months), until you get your debt under control.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't spend any money whatsoever on vacations, restaurants or take-out, except for a very special day like your birthday.  Restaurants, convenience foods and travel are wants, not needs, and what you need right now is financial security.  If I were in your shoes, I'd also cut out entertainment, such as streaming services.  If your wife wants a streaming service, then she can pick up the tab.  It doesn't have to be forever.  You are prioritizing your financial security over entertainment.  In the meantime, you can explore free alternatives, such as checking out books or DVDs from the library, or inviting friends over for a pot-luck/game night, for example.

Given that pwBPD are erratic and prone to meltdowns, I'm not even sure if I would enter into a detailed discussion.  I think I'd just do it.  I'd stop paying for the streaming/cable service, and when she asks, I'd just state the truth:  "I have to reduce expenses because we have a huge amount of debt that's growing, not shrinking, and I can't continue spending on non-essentials."  I'd stop going to restaurants and buying take-out; I'd make dinner every night, and pack lunches to take to work.  If my spouse insisted on a weekly date night, then I'd cook a special meal, and bring out the candles and cloth napkins.  If she insists on a restaurant meal, then she can pay the bill.  I'd shop for a cheaper phone/data plan and sign up for it.  I'd cancel any subscriptions I'm not using, and explore cheaper options (or pauses) for ones I am using, such as a gym membership.  

Hi Camp-
I worked in the financial industry for years and volunteered counseling in financial literacy to people in transitional housing for numerous years.  There’s one thing I’m wondering that I’m not sure you mentioned; and I’m hoping this doesn’t upset you.

This sort of dovetails with what Notwendy mentions about whether or not you’re completely aware of the entirety of your W’s income for tax purposes.

*Are you certain that your wife does NOT have credit card availability and/or debt that you’re unaware of?  You may be able to run a credit report to confirm what you think you know.

In addition, and I’ll have to look up the phrase and meaning since I don’t absolutely recall, but it nearly applied to me during my divorce in 2011-2012… There was (in the U.S. at least) something like “the innocent spouse” clause.  This had to do with my not knowing what my exH was or was not reporting in terms of income while I was still attached to him; and he leaned toward financial dishonesty when no one was watching.  You may wish to look into that to protect yourself.

I know this is way beyond your topic of HRT, but there are ways for you to more easily work down your debt burden (without paying it ALL off) if you want to do that.  I’d be happy to discuss that with you.

Finally ON the HRT topic, I’ve been on an estrogen only patch since my total hysterectomy in 2004.  The patch has never caused mood swings for me. I was not in menopause when I had to have the surgery, so maybe that makes the difference?  I will say that when I get the blues, I take an OTC liquid iron/B complex supplement that was originally suggested by my gynecologist in 2004.  The stuff is so good.

Take good care.  It really does seem like you’re doing everything you possibly can.

Warmly,
Gems

Hi there,

I understand that everyone is different, and scenarios are different.  But I just can't fathom that pwBPD "don't remember" the horrible things they have said and texted.  Sure, they will say they "don't remember" or "didn't mean it," mainly to escape responsibility, and to avoid feeling shame.  Avoidance is a standard coping tactic.  But my firm belief is they remember practically everything.  Having said that, they will distort the fact patterns to try to push the blame back on YOU.

My adult BPD stepdaughter experienced temporary bouts of psychosis when she was under extreme stress.  But psychosis isn't amnesia.  I think the difference is important:  psychosis creates new, distorted experiences, but amnesia erases existing memories.  I've been reading these boards for a long while now, and I don't recall any instances of someone mentioning amnesia.  What I have read, over and over again, are stories of pwBPD pretending like they never did or said anything horrible.

I don't know, maybe it just rubs me the wrong way to excuse BPD behavior by claiming she just doesn't remember what she's done.  That means she has no agency or responsibility, and I guess that would also mean there's no hope for positive change, because her motivation has been erased.  I just don't buy it.  It would seem more reasonable to say, her judgment was impaired because her emotions boiled over, and she hasn't learned how to manage her emotions effectively yet.  It's logical that she would feel shame and attempt to cover up her abuses by fibbing and pretending she forgot.  Yet overcoming denial is a foundational first step in the healing process.

Excellent question - she does have 1 consulting job where she gets a 1099, a p/t employment where she gets a W2, but also had a private practice where clients typically pay via Zelle, Venmo or PayPal. That can be a significant source of income. That’s part of the LLC and I submit a spreadsheet with all the info to our accountant along with of course all the usual tax forms. Last year I had access to her accounts so I was able to download the transactions and reconcile in consulting income for the year. But that all consulting income goes into her personal accounts so unless she allows me access I have no idea of what she actually earned.