Thank you for all the advice. It makes perfect sense (in a “dealing with BPD” sort of way. I definitely need to work on not arguing and getting out of conversations before they go on too long. I’ve gotten better, but definitely have a ways to go.

Recently, I saw a post on social media about feelings. A person visiting his T gets upset and says, “my feelings are real!” The T responds. “Yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re based on fact.”

Concisely put. Not something that would be helpful for a person with BPD (at least not during dysregulation), but still accurate, I thought.

I think there are many posters here with similar type situations. I hope to offer some perspective, based on my own experiences. I am the adult daughter of a mother with BPD. Both my parents are deceased after a decades long marriage.

The Karpman triangle was very helpful to me in understanding the behavior. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

BPD mother was in victim perspective, and my father's main position was as her rescuer/enabler. For the two of them to be aligned like this- someone or something was in persecutor position. BPD mother's interactions with people were from her victim perspective- so "painting someone black" to another person who may be empathetic to her, and align with her was a common pattern. What is said isn't necessarily true. For someone with BPD, feelings feel like facts- so they may feel that way or- possibly be seeking empathy from the person they are venting to. This could explain why your DIL told stories about you to the midwife.

IMHO, and from experience, the most precarious thing about this situation is- that she is acting "normal" and may even be acting especially nice to your son. This is not malicious, it's fear of abandonment, as she may be aware that her behavior could push him away. PwBPD are very sensitive to shame- and so may not apologize or take accountability to avoid this feeling, which is very distressing to them- so instead they may act like "all is good now".

The person who has seen the behavior may second guess themselves and think well she's OK now. Also with my mother, there could be "reasonable" sounding reasons for the behavior- and your DIL may attribute her behavior to hormones and post partum. That may be a preciptating factor- but that doesn't mean her behavior was reasonable. It can give the impression that this was a one time event, but BPD is not a one time issue.

Why are you and your wife in a most precarious situation?- because, you are "on" to her and also because, next to her, you have the most influence on your son, her husband. Often the non BPD spouse's family members are likely to be placed in the persecutor position on the Karpman triangle.

You have no control over your DIL's feelings and your son will make his own decisions. Ultimately he will need to be the one who decides to carry out his plans and while you wish to be of support to him, keep the Karmpan triangle in mind and try to keep the drama in your interactions with her down, and keep your interactions with her positive- stay cordial, not emotionally reactive, even if you feel otherwise.

Hi Mom,

Here's my read:  your son is stressed out, and he hasn't really learned healthy ways of coping with stress.  Though there are lots of potential reasons for a rash, including food poisoning, allergies (e.g. pollen, gluten), dry skin . . . there's also such a thing as a stress-induced (or stress-worsening) rash.  I've experienced that, and big time.  Some cold compresses, cooling baths, drinking plenty of water, loose clothing and taking an antihistamine at bedtime can help.  I find that hydrocortisone cream makes my rashes worse; the only thing that isn't irritating to me is petroleum jelly.  Zinc oxide cream might help too.  If the rash persists for several days, he can go to the doctor to check it out.

I understand how stressful it can be when a loved one is incredibly moody.  My BPD stepdaughter is intensely moody, and when she was living with me, it felt like she was a smouldering volvano, ready to explode at the slightest provocation.  My husband can be like that too, but his volcano isn't as active, and his "eruptions" tend to be less intense as well as shorter-lived.  But by now, I know my husband's triggers.  A common one is hangriness.  He can get grumpy before dinner, especially if he didn't have a decent lunch.  He's also grumpy when he's stressed out (e.g. over an unexpected expense), over-tired or not getting enough attention.  Since I know the triggers and they are 95% predictable, I've learned to brace myself for his outbursts.  Mainly, I try really hard not to take his complaints and criticisms personally . . . because I know it's not really about me (though I'm always the focus); it's lashing out because of stress.  An example was that yesterday, he was hangry and, the second he walked in the door, he lashed out at me for not picking up the mail, even though he had passed the mailbox just seconds before.  He didn't notice any of the housework I did, nor the fact that I had dinner waiting for him.  No, he chewed me out about the mail, which is typically "his" chore.  It felt like he was looking for a fight.  But I didn't take the bait.  I didn't point out that I did a bunch of housework while he was gone all day on a fun trip.  I didn't defend myself.  I just went about my business and got out of his way--I didn't give him much of an opportunity to make things worse.  I didn't "engage" with his complaining and grumpiness.  Yeah, it's sad that he can be such a jerk sometimes, but I'm just done going above and beyond to make things "perfect" for him, because it doesn't matter what I do anyway!  He's going to be gumpy, and he's going to criticize me.  If he can't think of a obvious criticism or complaint, then he'll attack me for how (or where) I'm standing, or how I'm breathing, or how I'm looking at him, or how I'm not looking at him, or what I'm wearing, or how I did my makeup that day--not enough makeup and I'm criticized for not looking nice for him; too much makeup and I'm trying to flirt with another man; when reality is that my makeup is broadly consistent, day after day.  So, I just let him vent, I try not to take it personally, and I silently leave the room as soon as I can.  Fortunately for me, once he's had some food and a night's rest, he's usually back to his "normal" self the next day.

I guess that's my long-winded way of saying that when there's dysregulation that turns mean and/or nonsensical, a good strategy is to give them an "adult time out."  I think a time out works better than rewarding "bad" behavior with attention, and it also serves to protect your sanity better.  No JADEing, no advice, no solutions . . . because they aren't listening, and they don't actually want help in that moment, they want to blame someone else.  Save the explanations for later, when they're not dysregulated.

Hey Tim, welcome. Sorry to have met you under these circumstances. When you say separated, is this a legal separation through the courts while you two decide you want a divorce or not?  And yes, I'm assuming you're not a bad person, no one is perfect and I know I said some really mean things after years of constant abuse. They truly convince you that you're the worst person on earth, and when you believe that it starts to ruin your life. Any questions for us?

I'm so glad this is helping you. It's made my daughter worse after the first week. She is doing the nasal administration. After her first two treatments she had a major blowout and accused me of regularly beating her as a child, and after the third treatment she went no contact with me. Perhaps it's correlation not causation, but I suspect it's initially making her less stable. I hope it gets better. I'm using the time off to rebuild my tool kit and restore myself.

It's both sides of the same coin. "Borderline" was called that because it seemed to be on the line of neurosis and psychosis, and sometimes the borderline can act lucid and "normal" so to speak.

True change isn't quick. So when someone goes from raging and dissociated to appearing calm and nice in a short period of time, it's not that all will be OK from now on. Emotionally, it's hard to not wish for this or to hope for this and want to believe it.

My thoughts about this are- for me, I saw this "good side" as a form of masking. How sad for the pwBPD to think they are only acceptable when they are like this, but not truly loved for who they are.

And also, I got a bit jaded about it over time- as my BPD mother could be manipulative and so, if she was being nice to me, I wondered what is it she wants. I found it hard to trust this "side of her". The times she was angry and acting out felt more authentic- she wasn't in control of her behavior.

For me, the motivation to accept the whole package was more like radical acceptance-  to accept that she was who she was and attempts to change her, or to expect her to change weren't realistic or fair to her, really. That didn't mean accepting all of her behavior, or not having boundaries.

It also meant holding steady with my own self image and emotions no matter where she was on this borderline. It didn't mean not having feelings, but to be less reactive to her- and tone down the drama. She could be happy and saying nice things and then later, say I was terrible- but neither defined me. I didn't try to JADE.

Watch your emotions. If you go from despair and fear one moment to feeling like everything is fine, based on your son's phone calls and moods, this puts a lot of control on to his moods. This doesn't mean not having feelings- that mother- child bond is strong- it goes both ways. If my BPD mother was in distress- I had feelings about that.

However, her feelings didn't define me- it didn't mean I was a bad child if she felt that way and if your son is in distress- it doesn't mean you are a bad mother. If he asks for money and you say "no" he may react, and say hurtful things but his thinking doesn't make it true.

I'm planning to talk to my swbpd this Sunday.  We have a tentative agreement to meet up. I will let him know that I love him, I won't be his ATM. I go in and out of struggling with doing it and possible fallout... Last week he spiraled and was over the top disregulated over a rash that freaked him out as it spread over his body. Lots of drama. At the time my husband was done with living with it.  Tonight about a week later my son calls more happy, and relaxed than I've heard him in a long time. He called to say hi and see how we were doing. The truth is this is a part of who he is as well. Yes, there has been inpatient stays, suicidal talk, angry rants..... But there's this sweet caring part too. My struggle is having a hard time accepting the whole package. Have any of you struggled with the reality of the whole package?

Notwendy,
thanks for explaining the other groups. I will do a little research on them at some point. I have attended Alanon Adult Children meetings.
I agree my son has his own reasons regarding Kaiser. I realize that I need to step back for myself and him. I have let his pain, reactions, choices.... consume me.

Hello all first time here- a bit of background: I’m a semi retired emergency physician in New Zealand happily married for many years 2 adult children daughter and son. we’ve had our ups and downs as we all do but all minor and we are a strong stable family of more introvert type of people
My son met his partner a few years ago and they have been together since not long after.
She divulged she was going to counselling and later stated she had BPD - formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist in the mental health team she also has an additional diagnosis.
She has engaged in therapy and I thought she was going okay
A bit quirky and garrulous and nervous with new people- but that’s no biggie
She painted her mother as a very nasty controlling person who is an alcoholic. And consequently we’ve only met her parents on a couple of occasions her mother appears to be fairly strong minded but not not an unpleasant person. She fell pregnant last year and we were over the moon to be anticipating our first grandchild. Everything seemed to be fine and we have been nothing but welcoming and kind to her indeed my wife has helped her out and treated her as a daughter.

Our granddaughter arrived and everything seemed to be initially fine however on the first night in their new home my wife was there helping out and my son‘s partner started to decompensate. When she was finished feeding and the baby was going to be put down with my son and wife’s help she accused them of wanting to steal the baby and she did not want to sleep as a consequence of that this culminated in her calling her mother to come over and my son and my wife resorted to sleeping downstairs as their presence was winding her up. My wife arrived home the next morning very upset saying it was absolutely terrible the next week was a whirlwind essentially she got worse turning on her mother mother saying that she was evil turning on us saying that we were playing her son off against her in poisoning his mind she got friends and who she then termed as her family who started to enable her by believing her stories about us. It all came to head went through lack of sleep she went into a manic state requiring a compulsory treatment order under the mental health act they stayed in place for about five days in for the past week my son has been treating water and her parents especially her mother has been a fantastic help to her which makes me seriously doubt that all we have been told about her is untrue. We have been shut out in the cold we have not seen our granddaughter for the past two weeks. They’re seeing a therapist soon both my son and his partner and then the partner with her mother. A transpires speaking to the midwife that she has been telling stories about us which have been completely untrue due to patient confidentiality we don’t know the substance of these but the implication from the midwife is that they were not very nice - she also has exhibited splitting against her midwife having sacked her and intends to complain about her and other staff members at the hospital.. My son has the insight and his read up about BPD and given her instability and telling stories about us behind our back  he is not falling for her attempts to manipulate him against us and alienating us
He is intending to leave her and will be looking at doing a coparenting and  dividing up the relationship property  which they’ve only bought recently. This  is an absolute mess it’s our worst nightmare when it really should be one of the happiest times of our lives. We have told our son that it is really his decision what what he does in this situation and we will support him no matter what his choice however as coldhearted as it may seem my inclination would be to run.

My main concern is my son‘s mental health but also that about granddaughter I can’t see any fantastic option here but the unpredictability of living with such a person and the emotional rollercoaster they would put both my son and our granddaughter through would be tremendously destructive. For our part we have been very hurt and confused by this and it is taking a lot of time to get our heads around it. My son seems to be doing a very good job of sitting boundaries and he is currently sleeping in a separate bed downstairs in the house he has seen a lawyer and is getting all his ducks in a row in the likelihood that he will be leaving the relationship. It is made life very complicated that there is a baby involved who is an innocent party to all of this. The daughter-in-law now apparently we have heard through the grapevine has been on social media is starting to window dress her life with the new arrival

She seems to be settling down and almost behaving as if nothing has happened. She has however made no attempts to contact us or talk to us and at the moment we feel very hurt and angry but we feel supporting our son but distancing ourselves from her is the best option at the moment

Sorry for venting everybody but this has been an absolutely terrible rollercoaster to hell for us I would welcome anybody else’s perspective on this perhaps somebody has been an exactly the same situation we are in.

Looking through the forum they seem to be many accounts of manipulated behaviour using grandchildren as pawns in the game that they play we are very keen to avoid this if at all possible welcome your thoughts thank you to all

Hi Anonymous22,

I really empathize with your situation and can very much relate.

Having said that, I hope you won't be irritated by my suggestion. I personally would just always assume that your husband will not follow through with any agreements, and not even make them in the first place. I think that will create the least amount of stress and drama for you. If he helps out and follows through with plans, great. If not, you will not be relying on him and you won't have to rearrange things last minute. I know this is not a "normal" marriage partnership by a long shot, and it is unfair, but personally, I have found it to be the most practical and least frustrating way to live. I look at taking care of our children as a joy and a privilege, and I feel sorry for my husband that he is not mentally well enough to join me in this venture.

For me, what is the hardest is not so much relying on him to help out, as I don't rely on him at all, but having him not follow through with commitments that involve his attendance. He missed our son's third birthday, which is a big milestone in our culture, he has not shown up at family weddings, you get the idea. This is something I haven't found a solution for except to realize that I literally cannot rely on him for anything or to be there for any event. But I can't say I have not been very disappointed and embarrassed at times. BPD is truly an awful disorder....