Hi there,

From a financial perspective, I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd take control of what I can control.  That is, expecting your spouse to cooperate with a long-term, belt-tightening plan probably isn't going to work in practice.  My guess is, she might agree in theory to controlling spending, but when the time comes, she'll continue to spend just like she always has.  And she'll expect you to contribute and sacrifice today, while her increased contribution will be delayed in the future.  And then when the future comes, she'll renege, one way or another--she might argue she never made a deal with you in the first place.  Even if you have a written agreement, she'll probably rip it up, or have some sort of meltdown to force you to relent.  Is that how things have gone down to date?  If so, it's more likely than not that she'll continue to spend carelessly, and not contribute her fair share to the household expenses, no matter how transparent, earnest or reasonable you are.  Financial responsibility takes a lot of planning, determination and delayed gratification, and those are traits your spouse just doesn't have.  But YOU do.

If that's an accurate portrayal of reality, then what you can control is you.  You can make sure the household essentials are covered; anything your spouse ends up contributing is gravy.  You can completely cut out non-essential expenses for a time (start with six months), until you get your debt under control.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't spend any money whatsoever on vacations, restaurants or take-out, except for a very special day like your birthday.  Restaurants, convenience foods and travel are wants, not needs, and what you need right now is financial security.  If I were in your shoes, I'd also cut out entertainment, such as streaming services.  If your wife wants a streaming service, then she can pick up the tab.  It doesn't have to be forever.  You are prioritizing your financial security over entertainment.  In the meantime, you can explore free alternatives, such as checking out books or DVDs from the library, or inviting friends over for a pot-luck/game night, for example.

Given that pwBPD are erratic and prone to meltdowns, I'm not even sure if I would enter into a detailed discussion.  I think I'd just do it.  I'd stop paying for the streaming/cable service, and when she asks, I'd just state the truth:  "I have to reduce expenses because we have a huge amount of debt that's growing, not shrinking, and I can't continue spending on non-essentials."  I'd stop going to restaurants and buying take-out; I'd make dinner every night, and pack lunches to take to work.  If my spouse insisted on a weekly date night, then I'd cook a special meal, and bring out the candles and cloth napkins.  If she insists on a restaurant meal, then she can pay the bill.  I'd shop for a cheaper phone/data plan and sign up for it.  I'd cancel any subscriptions I'm not using, and explore cheaper options (or pauses) for ones I am using, such as a gym membership.  

Hi Camp-
I worked in the financial industry for years and volunteered counseling in financial literacy to people in transitional housing for numerous years.  There’s one thing I’m wondering that I’m not sure you mentioned; and I’m hoping this doesn’t upset you.

This sort of dovetails with what Notwendy mentions about whether or not you’re completely aware of the entirety of your W’s income for tax purposes.

*Are you certain that your wife does NOT have credit card availability and/or debt that you’re unaware of?  You may be able to run a credit report to confirm what you think you know.

In addition, and I’ll have to look up the phrase and meaning since I don’t absolutely recall, but it nearly applied to me during my divorce in 2011-2012… There was (in the U.S. at least) something like “the innocent spouse” clause.  This had to do with my not knowing what my exH was or was not reporting in terms of income while I was still attached to him; and he leaned toward financial dishonesty when no one was watching.  You may wish to look into that to protect yourself.

I know this is way beyond your topic of HRT, but there are ways for you to more easily work down your debt burden (without paying it ALL off) if you want to do that.  I’d be happy to discuss that with you.

Finally ON the HRT topic, I’ve been on an estrogen only patch since my total hysterectomy in 2004.  The patch has never caused mood swings for me. I was not in menopause when I had to have the surgery, so maybe that makes the difference?  I will say that when I get the blues, I take an OTC liquid iron/B complex supplement that was originally suggested by my gynecologist in 2004.  The stuff is so good.

Take good care.  It really does seem like you’re doing everything you possibly can.

Warmly,
Gems

Hi there,

I understand that everyone is different, and scenarios are different.  But I just can't fathom that pwBPD "don't remember" the horrible things they have said and texted.  Sure, they will say they "don't remember" or "didn't mean it," mainly to escape responsibility, and to avoid feeling shame.  Avoidance is a standard coping tactic.  But my firm belief is they remember practically everything.  Having said that, they will distort the fact patterns to try to push the blame back on YOU.

My adult BPD stepdaughter experienced temporary bouts of psychosis when she was under extreme stress.  But psychosis isn't amnesia.  I think the difference is important:  psychosis creates new, distorted experiences, but amnesia erases existing memories.  I've been reading these boards for a long while now, and I don't recall any instances of someone mentioning amnesia.  What I have read, over and over again, are stories of pwBPD pretending like they never did or said anything horrible.

I don't know, maybe it just rubs me the wrong way to excuse BPD behavior by claiming she just doesn't remember what she's done.  That means she has no agency or responsibility, and I guess that would also mean there's no hope for positive change, because her motivation has been erased.  I just don't buy it.  It would seem more reasonable to say, her judgment was impaired because her emotions boiled over, and she hasn't learned how to manage her emotions effectively yet.  It's logical that she would feel shame and attempt to cover up her abuses by fibbing and pretending she forgot.  Yet overcoming denial is a foundational first step in the healing process.

Excellent question - she does have 1 consulting job where she gets a 1099, a p/t employment where she gets a W2, but also had a private practice where clients typically pay via Zelle, Venmo or PayPal. That can be a significant source of income. That’s part of the LLC and I submit a spreadsheet with all the info to our accountant along with of course all the usual tax forms. Last year I had access to her accounts so I was able to download the transactions and reconcile in consulting income for the year. But that all consulting income goes into her personal accounts so unless she allows me access I have no idea of what she actually earned.

If you have been filing taxes as a married couple - how do you not know her earnings? They’d be reported on W2 and 1099 forms that you both submit? Curious how she’d keep that secret on joint filing - you both have to sign. I can see how she’s able to hide her expenses.

Hi CocoNR
You seem to be clearer as you talk/write about it. Just one other question occurred to me. Do you think that going NC could push DD from threats to actual violence? I know the other members of the family want you to take the tough line, but have they thought of this possibility?

On that day I was going through a rough patch emotionally. Started ruminating. I guess from their end there was love. From mine there was love. It's just love intertwined with a huge amount of hurt. Not healthy.

Agree with the idea of just keeping the things as memories. I've put them away somewhere out of sight. It's memories of a time I guess for me. A time when I was in that puppy love. That sort of love that can transcend all. Unfortunately I learned my lesson. One big ole tragedy. Really makes me wish there was a magical cure for BPD. Just unfortunate.

What's more weird to me is the finality of it all. I've talked to some other people after my breakup and they seem to still have their ex's in very low contact. Nothing full no contact. Looking at the memories feels odd. They are singular. In a sense I will never ever be able to revisit all of that. Ever. Like in my lifetime I will never see my ex again. Something about that is so weird to me. I shared probably the most vulnerable aspects of myself with this person. When I said I loved them I meant it. I would've taken a bullet for them if needed. Truly mean it.

Ah it's all bitter-sweet. You can't do much about it. It's getting easier to tolerate the ocean of emotions. Just sad.

Life will probably bring me some new experience. This is the human experience, nothing you can do other than experience it.

Hi CPH,

I think your post will resonate with many parents on this site.  First off, I do think it's best that you not share your hunch with your son about BPD, because all he will hear is that you think he's defective, and you're not supportive.  Nobody wants to hear you think they have a problem, let alone a personality disorder.  Unfortunately, there still is a lot of stigma around mental illness.  I believe everyone has their health issues--physical and/or mental--and that therapy and/or medications are proven treatments.  If getting therapy helps us learn to cope with life better, then therapy is a godsend.  But many people, I dare say men especially, think therapy is for wackos.

Based on your post, my sense is that your son isn't doing that poorly.  After all, it seems he's managing on his own for the most part, and he's able to keep a dear pet alive.  That shows he has some sort of routine and responsibility.  I guess my question for you is, how much are you supporting him?  Are you paying for everything, or maybe only supplementing his rent so he can keep a roof over his head?  Are you prepared to continue that financial support indefinitely?  The thing is, at 38, he might have come to expect lifetime financial support.  He might not even comprehend what he's really costing you, if he's not paying bills himself.  He'll rationalize whatever support you are providing, thinking you OWE him.  If that makes him feel too guilty, then he'll rationalize it another way, thinking the world is a horrible place, he's refusing to play the game.  Why would he get himself out of bed and work a job every day, if he has the option of doing whatever he wants, financed by you?  If you're not prepared to support him indefinitely, then I think you need to start asking yourself, what happens when you retire, or when you pass?

Another suspicion I have is that your son might be an alcoholic.  If he's drinking heavily enough until he passes out with you, my hunch is that he's doing that when he's alone, too.  Self-medicating with alcohol, marijuana or other substances is a common co-existing condition with BPD.  Since he's on the other side of the country, it could be easy for him to hide his addiction from you. 

The thing is, if your son has no job, no friends, no companionship other than a dog, and his support network is on the other side of the country, he probably feels useless.  He might lack an identity other than "freeloading son."  I bet he thinks you're ashamed of him.  He probably withholds details about his life from you, because he thinks you will be disappointed in him!  He's so ashamed, he stays away for the most part.  He probably needs a lot of reassurance that you love him.

I know you're really concerned for your son.  But I think, you also need to be concerned about YOU.  Please know that you didn't cause BPD, and you can't cure it.  You are not responsible for your son's emotions, he is.  You don't have to enable him indefinitely, either.  But if you do start to make some changes, such as weaning him off of financial support, my suggestion would be to try one baby step at a time.  One example might be:  Look, I'm retiring next year, and my budget is changing.  I can't afford to continue to pay most of your expenses.  Starting next month, you need to pay your phone/electric/gas bill.  Let him figure out what to do about that.  Maybe he downsizes, maybe he gets a job, maybe he spends less on booze, or maybe its a combination of all those things.  I actually think it would be a huge confidence-builder if he started to take charge of his own life.  He might surprise you.  But even if he doesn't share details, you can feel the victory, because you set him on a path towards self-sufficiency, one baby step at a time.  By enabling long-term unemployment, you're basically enabling him to feel lousy, while resenting you.

Reading through these posts sometimes this hit so close to home. I think this is where the tragedy lies. The hurt part of me wants to think there was no love. However I do feel like even with my ex there was a lot of it. That's why I got the brunt of the BPD. It's really sad. Such a counter intuitive type of disorder.

My ex also said random things looking back as "reasons". It was most likely because she wanted to just push me away in any way possible. It's really sad. Unfortunate.

Wish there was a magical cure for something like this haha.

There is only so much I can do. I can't 'force' her to do anything financially. I can't make her contribute more.

My next steps are to:

1. Have the conversation stating what I need. i.e. mutual transparency, determining a more fair and balanced approach to supporting the household, saving and paying down debt. (either contribute proportionally based on income or determine an amount for us each to keep for personal no questions asked spending and have the rest go towards bills, savings or debts). We have mutual accountability to do that, visibility and access to each others income and spending and ensuring money is going where we agree to. Part of this is for her to put 20% of her LLC income towards taxes. She hasn't saved in the past and she's paying of a $5k tax bill from last year because of it.

2. Based on her response there will be a couple of avenues. The most unlikely scenario (but most ideal for us) I think is that she goes along with what I propose.

A - Her response is exactly what it's been before. She refuses both transparency or to contributing more and will keep the status quo.

B - She might say yes to transparency and show me everything. But ultimately she is unwilling to make any changes, contribute more, etc despite what we find in the patterns of spending, her contributions.

As far as next steps and separating finances the following I do have power over and would need to take steps to

Transparency but no change:
I stop paying for any personal items for her and reduce or eliminate paying for dining out (currently spend $600-$800 a month). I no longer pay for her gas, her tolls, separate our iphone apple accounts (currently I pay for apps, subscriptions on our iphones and we share an appleid). I no longer cover optional items but the biggest thing I can do is stopping to pay for dining out. Not as a punishment but because it's one of the only areas I can realistically cut back. there are a couple smaller bills of hers I pay that I would stop if she won't take them on. I would have to decide if I would keep paying items out of a joint account or setup a new personal account for monthly bills. I would cover the shared bills I currently do (can't force her to) but she would be responsible for her own expenses. I would prioritize emergency savings and paying down debt. It would be very distressing for her as she emotionally requires me taking her out weekly. That would stop or we would have to do cheap/free things unless she wants to pay. There also wouldn't be any money I would direct to a savings for travel or goals until some financial stability is established which could be a couple of years.

If she refuses transparency and won't change contributions:
If she won't share her financial information I would need to separate our finances for tax purposes because we are both on an LLC that she receives payment for. If I can't see her accounts to ensure accurate income information to file taxes then I would have no choice but to file jointly this year but would remove myself off the LLC in 2026 and future years we would have to file individually. Unfortunately this would mean more of a tax burden overall but she has outright said she doesn't want to claim all her income so I cannot trust that she is not committing tax evasion (which essentially puts me at risk because I'm the one giving the information to our accountant and we file jointly). this would happen as well if she won't change or I can't get verification that she's actually putting 20% into an account for business so that's covered.

There is a 3rd and probably some other options I'm not thinking of but she could refuse transparency and offer some token more contribution. I would have some grey area to deal with. I feel like I'm still dealing with a situation where there's financial infidelity - hiding income and spending.  Plus regardless unless I know what she's earning and can verify 20% of consulting income is in fact getting set aside I have to separate as much as I can.

Yes, I am considering divorce as an option. For me I want to express what I need, follow through with the consequences of that and make next step decisions based on that. I still hope she might come around if I'm consistent with my boundaries. If she doesn't come around things will likely get worse. I will continue to get more resentful of her, and she will get more resentful of me because I'm not treating her like the princess she thinks she is. Things will move towards a natural conclusion and I'm realistic that may mean divorce.