Hello again,

I think I understand your worry, compounded by the fact that you can't seem to find the right time to have a complicated dialogue with your son.  I've been in that situation many, many times, perhaps most of the time these last few years.  I think that with complicated conversations, picking the right moment--when you're alone together, face to face, free of emotional distractions, in the right mindset--is extremely important.  Actually, I find that face-to-face isn't ideal for me, because it feels too intense; I prefer doing something in parallel, like walking or performing a household task, such as making a cup of tea.  You see, if he's not "ready," the conversation will likely not go very well.  I get the sense that you understand that.

In practice, I find I have to be very patient to find the right moment to broach a sensitive topic.  Sometimes I have to wait months for the right moment.  I'd say that's true for my adult BPD stepdaughter, as well as for her dad.  There's probably never a "perfect" moment, but I suspect you know what I mean.  I guess I'd counsel patience and restraint.  Wait for the moment your son mentions a relevant topic, such as stress at work, and you can find a thread to pull.  Sometimes I think I'm allowed a dozen words and as many seconds of air time, before a wall will go back up.

Maybe with the new year, you could ask your son what the highlight(s) of the year were for him.  I like this question because it's positive, open-ended, and the answers can be revealing.  Whatever he says his highlight is, you could underscore how he has a lot of positive things happening in his life, and that you're proud of him for making them happen.  That might set you up for a deeper conversation.

Hi townhouse,

Thanks for sharing.  I totally agree.  I too have grandchildren. Even though they’re far away, a breakup with their grandpa would disrupt my relationships with them as well, not to mention our adult children.

Bottomline,

 I’m handling him much better now.  I am more detached than ever before.  It’s his loss, and his fault — How could I love him, after all of the abuse?  But I have my own friends, and my own life. He can’t take that away from me.

Thanks again.
Jazz

We can't go back and edit but to add- I don't have a long term romantic situation with a person who has the range of behaviors your wife has and a history of severe trauma, but I did observe my parents in one- so I can not speak for how a motivating strategy affects a relationship over the long run. It didn't work well to do this with my BPD mother, but each person is their own individual and will respond in their own way.

I replied to your post about what is effective with this kind of trauma as it is known that EMDR is an approach but also to look at the idea of motivating someone. As much as I wish my mother would have been able to resolve her own trauma- what went on between her and the therapist was still completely up to her and also at her level of abilty to actually deal with it. I hope others in a similar situation to you can post their own experiences that may be helpful to you.

This is true and humans are complex. It's also true that a spouse with BPD who is financially dependent and doesn't have the life skills to be self supportive may not have the actual choice to leave.

When you made the point about a person becoming useless and inert, even the most impaired humans have their own emotions and thoughts and react to their circumstances in some way. I think it is possible to have some control over another person if they aren't able to manage on their own- but they still will have their own emotions about it. I don't think humans are ever inert, nor do they want to be seen as useless. There is an innate quest for autonomy and they emotionally react to their circumstances.

You have experienced this with toddlers who, while being appropriately dependent on parents and under parental control, will still seek autonomy with what they can control- such as having a meltdown over being given a yellow cup when they wanted a blue cup at meals.

I don't have experience with a romantic relationship. I have observed this with my mother who had BPD. I suspect  from her behavior that she had some significant trauma in her younger years but I don't know what or who may have done it, but she would dissociate and act out on the people closest to her. She was both - paradoxically- dependent and had an emotional need to be cared for while also at times, controlling and verbally/emotionally abusive. In social situations, with people who were not as close to her- she could maintain a social persona, but the closer someone got to her, the more challenging it was to maintain that.

While having people do things for her met an emotional need, she still also wanted autonomy and control, even if it wasn't in her best interest to act on it.  Sometimes this didn't make sense unless seen in the context of her feelings and need for control, even when that control was limited, and also in the context of her being an autonomous human in her own right.

I believe you truly want what is best for your wife and for your family and that is for her to be motivated to work in at her own recovery in therapy. From your posts, it seems you are looking at ways to motivate your wife to get to therapy-  and change her behavior. I do think pwBPD can be externally motivated "hold it together" to some extent (more in relationships that aren't as close as family ones.) But is this indicative of real internal change? I don't know if the outcome of this approach can be predictable. Your wife is her own person.

We don't use our names here for a reason, and your story could describe at least a dozen other members here (probably hundreds).  So don't worry about being discovered on this site.  As a general rule, BPD Family is for family members of someone suffering with BPD.  We don't encourage BPDs to post and share here since we're not licensed therapists or specialists.

And so you know, overthinking comes with the territory.  For years with my BPD kid, I was so worried about what she'd do next that it heightened tensions for everyone in the house.  Once I finally learned to relax and take things day by day, things improved dramatically. 

That's a great outlook and I agree, that's all you can do.  The problem with addiction is that you can get it right over and over again, only to slip up once and be right back in that destructive cycle.  So you have to surround yourself with different people, places and things until you're absolutely strong enough to resist temptation.  I can only imagine how hard it is and you should be proud of yourself for what you've recently accomplished.  The odds are definitely against you.

Please keep sharing here and let us know how we can help.  I hope you had a nice holiday!

I recall when I was trying to manage my ex's behavior.  Despite everything I tried it continued on a downward path.  If we hadn't had a child which fueled her childhood traumas, maybe my marriage could have lasted longer.  In a healthy or normal marriage children are clear blessings, but when there are acting-out PDs in the mix, the children themselves can trigger them just by existing.  Just a couple may work but add kids and that changes the dynamics.  That's what happened to me.

Yes, I know you're trying to "manage" the marriage but unless you get overall cooperation, there's a risk it will continue on a downward trajectory.  Like bailing a leaking boat with a tin can when the holes keep getting bigger and require an ever larger bucket.

So I guess my question is, do you think you're making some progress or at least breaking even on your efforts?

Some people ask, But don't people with BPD traits get better over time, as they get older?  Most here would respond, Maybe, if the other person is working on themselves, their self-oriented perceptions, their overall respect for others, resisting negativity, etc.

My adult child has struggled w/mental health issues since a child but as an adult it’s very hard for her. She was told she’ bipolar & on meds for that but she meets the BPD criteria. She’s had medium risk surgery & now everything I ever did wrong or what she felt was wrong has been told to me.  Plus she is majorly depressed. She has been extreme in saying terrible things to me; I have made the mistake of trying to justify or defend my actions of now or her childhood.  I made a mistake in handling my divorcing her father; the children were in the middle. Their dad got custody because the social worker who reported to the judge was his relative.  And I left my emotionally husband who was good to the children but cold to me for a man who showed me warmth & love. I wanted the children but lost them 50 years ago.  My daughter reconciled some when a teen; my son never.  At times she & I are close, I love her, have done financial things for her to make her life nicer though she supports herself well. It was to shows love.  When I’ve asked her to eat w/me or me & boyfriend she’s “dieting.”.  Movies-she’s tired.  Two day trip sightseeing- didn’t enjoy it-suffered it out for me.  Sometimes we are fine & I’m a good mom & person.  But if I’m in a vulnerable state she’ll pounce on me.  Now she is suffering w/physical pain & problems w/recovery everything has come out.  I know I sound like poor me (it does hurt) but my constant worries are what will happen to her, anything I suggest for physical health like calling the surgeon to get answers & help are ignored. I know her childhood after she wasn’t with me wasn’t good, I’m sure it hurt mind. I never wanted to lose them. I feel guilty for the way the divorce went but I couldn’t stay.w/her dad.  My time since this started has been absorbed w/texting her to let her know I love her, I look online for answers & read a book about BPD.  I’m feeling now I shouldn’t.be  paying for mistakes by seeing her suffering.  I feel very guilting for trying to disengage & I know other adult children of divorce who at least have relationships w/bothbparrnts.  Is my divorce the cause of her bad depression?  What can I do?   I want her to be stable & well. 

Yes @Notwendy , you gave an excellent explanation of the effect of authentic versus manipulative threats.

But I have two important observations:

1) This is still quite similar to the push-pull cycle, though initiated by the Non. Here is why:

 - Push: Most likely, the pwBPD won't comply just because you said it. They'll not even make their decision until you actually retreat and they really feel it.

 - Pull: Then, if your intention is to reapproximate as they comply, you'll be ready to pull them back in case they comply. If the opportunity is available and their feelings of love are solid, then they are likely to comply. Then both will repair it together.

So the trick is not to avoid breakups (push-pull) altogether but instead to try to make it work. Most frequently, those instances are damaging rather than constructive. To take the juice from it, you must make sure that (a) you keep in control of your feelings during the process (not just give in to avoid pain) and (b) that every instance of push-pull leads to some kind of meaningful progress (for both, but especially for the pwBPD).

2) The real world is still more complex than the authentic versus manipulative model. The fact that someone did not follow through does not necessarily mean that they didn't mean it. Frequently, the effective change of the pwBPD may lead them to simply change their emotions and make them leave behind the idea of breaking up, because they get deceived by the temporary change. Or they may have lacked resources to follow through (time, money, etc.).

I'm not sure if this is how I update. Anyway,  I've read your responses, experiences and advice.  I went to the section on skills and tools. I watched the validation video, which I love. And.
 I determined not to let my fear over upsetting my son by bringing up a subject that he has rejected strongly the last few times it's come up. I went to his house today to pickup something he borrowed. I had my non threatening approach ready. What he didn't mention was that his kids, my grandkids were there. Which I was happy to see and visit with. My son was bbqing, picking up the kitchen - I tried to bring up neutral topics to see if he might be open to conversation. He was distracted and busy. He gave me a couple quick hugs which was great but I believe this wasn't the time to bring up a possibly upsetting topic.   
I was beating myself up for awhile after that it didn't work out the way I hoped. Maybe I should have brought it up? Then I beat myself up or more honestly grieved that our relationship is so hard. It's not like this with my younger son. With my oldest it feels like there are lots of walls up except when he's in crisis or is feeling alone and scared of abandonment. I was welcomed into his life with his ex wife. He has had a girlfriend for 3 yrs that I've never met. He didn't drop in at Christmas this year which he can do for a bit. Instead he called and text the days before telling me he loved me very much repeatedly. It felt to me that he was troubled because he said it so many times. Maybe some guilt? I totally get people have other places they want to go to. He spent time with his girlfriend's family. He's told me our family isn't normal like hers and that it's my fault he doesn't feel comfortable bringing her to a family gathering. I know my son 's kids 20yrs and 14yrs both feel he's more involved with the girlfriend's kids than being interested in them. It's  sad. This message is long and disjointed. I'm feeling the need to share with people who may be hurting too or confused how to move forward healthfully, or trying hard to be loving and welcoming when you've been told you're hated and blame and then loved . Back to encouraging my son to adding to the tools he has to navigate stressful times....Does this work best face to face rather than on a phone call? He has a very full schedule with work, his kids and girlfriend. 
Thanks
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