This time last week after a particularly bad episode, I was pretty sure I needed to end this relationship.  After a few days of thinking, I was 99% sure I wanted to work harder about making it work.  But now I am back to being on the fence, or at least on the fence about being on the fence. 

FD- you just found what I experienced as a "flip" in my father's thinking. At one moment he seemed aware of the issues with my BPD mother and then, it was as if nothing happened. It also seemed to parallel my BPD mother's way of suddenly erasing in her mind what had just happened and she was "acting good now" at least for the moment. I saw this happen many times. During the times BPD mother appeared relatively "good"- it's as if he somehow was in a state of forgetfulness. It was this dual mindset that seemed to keep them in this relationship pattern.

The status quo seemed to be this. BPD mother had her behaviors, and Dad's response was enabling/compliance. While at times it seemed things might have gotten so difficult he might consider divorce- the situation might settle and then, it was as if whatever happened didn't happen.

But we kids did see what happened and it seemed that no matter what my BPD mother did- it didn't change this pattern. We talk about boundaries here but boundaries are the bottom line for us- what would we act on. What are actions we don't ignore or go along with? I don't wish to post all the behaviors we either witnessed or experienced, but some were similar to what Max has posted about and yet, each time, there was this "flip" in his thinking and actions. If there's nothing that prompts taking action, then these are not boundaries.

I also agree with CC43's post about how enabling fosters a perpetual dependency, and how not having boundaries or consequences or responsibilities perpetuates a child-like existence and mindset. How this happens seems to be a chicken-egg question. Was this enabling an adaptation to BPD mother's disability or did it keep her that way? And why did my father enable? I don't know. I think one thing was that it gave him a momentary reprieve from her behavior, and when BPD mother was escalating, in the moment, one wanted relief.

I think people balk at the term co-dependency because, they aren't the dependent ones in the traditional sense. Dad was the wage earner, the more emotionally stable one. I also am an independent type person- so when a counselor brought up co-dependency with me, it didn't make sense but I took her advice and went along with it. Eventually I understood more about the concept and why she made that recommendation.

FD mentioned family of origin and this can be where this starts, because these traits are seen as positive in the FOO and also in general- caring, compassionate, able to tolerate a lot. These were the "normal" in my family and they aren't bad traits in general. It's when they are done to the extreme, and perpetuate dysfunction, that they are considered co-dependent.

We may not see our own co-dependent behaviors as problematic if they were the "normal" in our FOO. Or they may be an adaptation to the dynamics in a relationship with a person who has a disorder.

In general, people don't take action to change unless a situation becomes so intollerable they see change as the only option. If someone is being enabled and doesn't experience consequences of hurtful behavior- there's not motivation to change. Same for the person who is in the enabling position. Perhaps it's a difficult situation but is it difficult enough to take action?

So sorry to see what you're going through; you're not alone.  We've all been through this as the BPD 'script' never varies.


At the moment he's got what he sees as 'the best of both worlds' - he still has you to chase after him but, in his mindset of blaming you, he also thinks he's entitled to look elsewhere too. A BPD fears being alone more than anything so to have 'options' - irrespective of who they are - is reassuring to them. It's a sad sympton of the illness that they can switch from person to person with an alarming lack of empathy.

You're doing the right thing by not playing his chase game - all that's doing is confirming to him that you're still there so he can play you all the more. Hard though it may be, you need to put yourself first - I'm sure you don't want to continue as things have been, even if it means the end of the relationship. Everyone has their limits and their right to a happy life. From my own 4-year BPD relationship I know that once you show them you're willing to play their games, they'll only keep the games going as they thrive on the conflict.

Be aware that even if he does contact you there is no guarantee of his sincerity if he sees you as the only available 'option' at the moment. What they want is purely dictated by their emotional state at the time and you could be back in the same situation time after time. Trust is impossible when someone has BPD as they're playing with no rules or  standards - not their fault, just the nature of the illness.

Best wishes.

Thank you your post was very validating - and an excellent example of how to make something like this work long term. Or at least tolerable.

I am in therapy now working with a therapist on boundaries and how to problem solve the relationship. I find myself wondering if I did something to mess things up because I know Ive responded very ineffectively at times and effectively at other times. He continues to be extremely avoidant and the more avoidant I am towards him he responds with more avoidance. I dont want to play the chase game anymore which is what hes waiting for -for me to come back to him and Im not going to do it this time. Im going to continue to avoid and treat him exactly how he treats me. I have communicated my true feelings through text- Ive told him what I value, that I love him and want to stay with him. Ive made it very apparent that I AM not doing well right now. But its just weird because he seems to be perfectly content with the avoidance while I am not. Im in extreme pain and depression. I miss him. I love him. But I dont want to give in. He needs to be the one to reinitiate contact this time. I dont think he will He will continue to avoid and then leave once hes found someone else. Hes already looking for other women so

It doesn't sound like something a 13 year old would say or write. Do you think his mother wrote this?

I think a mother would have access to a 13 year old's email, even in "normal" situations as a security check so she could get into it as him.

Teens don't usually write such long paragraphs and this is unusual language for a 13 year old, even a very bright 13 year old. To bring up terms like restraining order, research, hiring a hit man- this isn't a young teen's usual world.

Since he's acting more normal around you, I wonder if he actually wrote these. It sounds more like his mother did.

I have my uses.

Hoo boy, when you've been on BPDFamily long enough you're no longer talking about your wife/ex, now it's your child. So long story short, "Kim" was diagnosed with BPD and spent years asking me to date her or marry her and I consistently refused citing her mental health - eventually she claimed to be dying of catastrophic drug-induced liver failure and not wanting to die alone (I was a moron, I know, I know) so I married her because alright, why not...turns out of course she wasn't actually dying, anyways, we had a kid, some misadventures, I caught her acting out on our kid what her father had done to her and laid down the law for her, when I caught her again much later I phoned 9-1-1 and we split up.

As it stands right now, she has majority custody and I have holidays/summers (we live quite a distance from each other); long story short her father was a MAP, her best friend in her teens and 20s was a MAP with a mother-son fetish, and then the guy she began hanging out with after I phoned 9-1-1 and we split...yeah, I won't go into details except to say he's in prison and you might've read about his case. Obviously our son was not unaffected by this environment; he has PTSD (technically he has Complex-PTSD but due to the connotations they're hesitant to label it that), he's been suspended from school dozens of times including for threatening school shootings, etc.

Anyways, we do Zoom calls three times a week when he's not here - and he's fine on all of them, showing me tricks he taught his gerbil, nerf guns, one piece books, whatever - just acting like a kid with his Dad. And when he's HERE on holidays or summer he's fine other than a few rough days of adjustment (Mom has no rules, Dad has rules - adjustment is to be expected) - he was here for March Break, ten days, didn't curse or lose his temper even once, planned a hike for this summer that he seemed excited about and discussed on subsequent Zooms and whatnot.

But occasionally, either at midnight or at like 1pm on a schoolday (when he SHOULDN'T be online) at his mother's house he'll send me alarming emails - I usually manage to soothe him somewhat with my experience caring for his mother and such, but for example here is today's.

"Even if 5% of the time im free like in a 3 hour free range parenting time or fort time the other 95% scares me what could you do shove me push me hit me the same things others did You psychologically cant recognize it but your mental health makes you illusion the truth All moms friends agree, Mom agrees Everything about trauma agrees ita just an effect and i dont care what you have to say im not believing anything from you anymore i already have no trust in you anymore and everyone else who i do trust and all moms friends. Everything points to you being wrong I have absolutely no reason to believe anything you say it means nothing against the word of every human who researches it Actually knows it most of the books you read are old conceptions PTSD was hardly understood until about the 2010s Every media source Every psychologist Mom (who doesnt have mental disabilities other then ptsd) I know this wont change your decision When i get a voice or maybe turn 18 im suing for the trauma you put me through Firstly for being a dumbass Granny Gramps Grams and Papa everyone didnt think you should have gone to detroit fifteen years ago You dont follow authority and dont understand the difference between right and wrong And secondly for continuing to trigger my PTSD then mock it After that im getting a maximum authority Restraining order against you because God knows what kind of a stalker you will become if you lose rights to see us I've begun throwing away anything sent by you im trying to live a life not a twisted lab test Nothing you try will work I,ll go farther to never go on these trips then anything you could even emphasize I dont care what connections i have to ruin what crimes i have to commit what i have to do what laws or sins i have to break I,ll go to any extent to avoid this Even if it means destroying the foundation i have i can build it back up effortlessly Nothing i have means more then getting rid of you Even if that means forcefully running away at the handoff into god knows where and starting a life with nothing I,ve accessed the dark web dozens of times and may hire a hitman if this misery continues God wont do anything Society wont do anything so ill have to do it myself even if it means crimes sins or everything I own destroyed I dont want anything to do with you and i never will Even if you change As soon as I can im cutting all ties If i ever get into any inescapable situation I even researched seppuku for an emergency where i have no other option Two nerves I have to burst and then it will slide right off This is not a desperate attempt at stopping the trip That im already in the process of Just explaining how i feel and what i truly do to get rid of you"

(his mother and I had a remarkably horrible experience in Detroit when he was a toddler, left it when he was 4 but his mother wants to play it off as "THAT" is the reason for all his emotional disturbance - not the molestation and boundary-crossing and adultification, etc)

Now it's important to note he's tested above average IQ, in Gifted & Talented class, this isn't how he speaks or writes normally - he gets something in him and suddenly this all pours out like this onto the page. Obviously some of the wording appears to be parroting his mother but I'm not sure how to properly handle this - all the DBT acronyms seem to escape me when trying to deal with a 13 year old who has the mind of a 16 year old but suddenly reverts to the massive stream-of-consciousness run on sentence.

Would appreciate any advice, these don't come in often - and most likely he'll get on Zoom with me in an hour and be totally fine and laughing about favourite hockey teams or misadventures or games he's playing, etc...there's such an eerie disconnect between typing what's above, and then being totally fine - but as his mother once testified to a judge (unwisely, yikes) "You know how Bipolar is like a few weeks of manic euphoria and then a few weeks of suicidal depression? While I cycle between those two extremes 5-6 times daily every day of my life".

Where he's 13 I'd LIKE to get some early intervention here, though am somewhat handicapped as the backup parent right now (petitioning court to reverse decision-making etc)

Haltlose PD ... I am stunned... still learning new terms after all this time...

In most states alimony appears to be viewed as short term support to enable the disadvantaged spouse to transition into post-marital life.  That can include career training.  Also, as happened in my case, if the disadvantaged spouse gets equal or more parenting time on the official schedule, then the ex-spouse also gets child support.  (In recent years the law changed and now CS is post-tax which would mean that you would pay CS after you first paid taxes on those earnings.)


I briefly went back and reviewed some of your early posts such as the one above.  You weren't married then so it appears your children aren't teenagers yet.  Yet the gist of your posts is similar to today.  She hasn't made substantive progress toward recovery.  And the issues are the same old, same old?  Would you agree you've been in a holding pattern (airplane reference) all these dozen years?

I'm not fluent with all the therapeutic terms but I wonder if co-dependence applies here.  It wouldn't be your fault since it may be this is influence from your childhood FOO (family of origin).  Just thinking outside the box...

Remembering the advice not to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) has been so helpful to me.  It's hard to do but pays off.

Re has anyone else experienced a desire to explain, justify, defend yourself - yes, yes, oh, yes. It's incredibly destabilising and painful to exist on a different plane of reality from someone you used to trust and love. Sadly, you cannot force someone else to be accountable to reality when their lack of accountability is the reason you are unable to be in the relationship. Your healing can't depend on her validation.