It is why I will not buy furniture from ikea anymore. It will just resulr in a rage nd something broken.

I don't think it's a disagreement but that, if love could have made a difference to my BPD mother- it would have done that. I observed my father doing everything he possibly could for my BPD mother for decades. It made a difference for her materially- to have what she needed but emotionally, it didn't change her perceptions due to her BPD. 

He did love her. He was smitten with the beautiful woman he fell in love with, and at times, that woman was in there somewhere. However, she also was one of the most cared for and simultaneously troubled (by BPD) people I knew. Somehow she would perceive good intentions and caring from a victim perspective. She'd find something wrong or hurtful in what was being done for her or given to her- and see it as someone hurting her or disappointing her. Being verbally and emotionally abusive was her self defense.

It was crazy making and confusing- to do something nice and receive anger as the response.

The tragic aspect of BPD is that the closer one is to the person, the more these perceptions play out. So it's the people who loved her the most that elcited her responses. I felt envious of her friends who could have a better relationship with her but learned to understand that it was because they weren't as close to her that this was possible.

In your story Pook, it seems you get along better with your ex wife now that you two aren't married. In this context- this makes sense. She can perceive you differently because you aren't her closest and most intimate partner. It doesn't mean you didn't love her enough. I think you did actually. Maybe you made some mistakes you'd do differently. I think every person who was ever married can say that- we learn as we go along. But these alone aren't the cause of the dynamics in the marriage. It's that the closest, most intimate relationships are more prone to dysfunction.

Still, everyone is accountable for our own actions and how we treat other people. I agree- no matter how angry or hurt we feel, it doesn't give us license to be hurtful to someone else. I agree with your suggestion to make the best of it, and to not allow anger and resentment to contribute to the conflict. It may be more like making lemonade out of lemons but there's not enough sugar. Still- less conflict, kinder behavior- can help the climate.

I don't think one can be expected to love someone who also abuses them- love them in the sense of being close and loving and vulnerable. I think my mother wanted that but it wasn't an emotionally safe situation to do this. However, I could extend love in a more universal sense.  How do I want to behave towards an elderly and mentally ill person. I could still protect myself and have boundaries and treat her decently. Did I do this perfectly? No. There were times I did lose my temper, get frustrated, but I still tried.

I could also examine how I perceived her. The mother who we were afraid of as kids (and still remained fearful of to some extent) was now a frail elderly person. She could still be verbally and emotionally hurtful but as adults, the relationship is different. For Jazz- your H may still be a jerk, the jerk he was when he was younger and able to hurt you, but it seems now, he's more dependent and less powerful. It is possible to lessen the conflict, try to find some compassion, albeit it's difficult when one is feeling hurt and angry. But doing what you can to decrease conflict in the home will benefit both of you. It doesn't seem fair that you'd have to do this, but you are the more emotionally capable one. If your H is also experiencing dementia, he may not be able to manage his emotions. You can and should have boundaries when it comes to abusive behavior and also decide if he ever needs more assistance than you can provide.

Venting to friends may feel good but I don't think friends know the whole of any situation. They will take your side because they are your friends. They will tell you to leave because they see your side but truly- they don't have all the information to be able to advise you. Even with the close view of my parents' relationship, I could not fully understand it.

For Pook, I think you have made the best of your situation. It's possible that being in the position of husband, your wife could not fully perceive your love for her but as a friend, she can, and this is a positive. You do show her love - in a different way and in a position where she can receive it.

Here is what I learned with these situations. If any plan had an aspect that depended on my BPD mother- this is a possible way for her to sabotage it.

The loophole in this is that for you to take the older child, your wife needs to keep the younger one. This is the loophole for sabotage.

Imagining this were my BPD mother- there'd be a reaction, and a part of that would involve the younger one. It would be a crisis situation.

She would be too out of control to watch the baby, or she'd have an issue where she couldn't - such as not feeling well.

The reaction would involve a need of hers that takes priority over the dinner- such as you needing to take care of her.

My BPD mother got her way in all these situations through some sort of crisis at the time.

If we wanted to do something, whether or not we decided to inform her sooner or later in the plan- all the aspects had to be already covered with no connection to her at all. No need for her to have any part in it. That's the part she could sabotage.

In your situation, it's her watching the baby. Even though it's more complicated to take both kids to dinner, if your sister and her family are there- that's enough adults to handle both kids. She'd  love having the baby there too.

Much harder to pull off if she comes up with something she needs you for, to take priority over the dinner plans.

The attorney wouldn't be for divorce. There are attorneys who specialize in elder law and Medicaid planning. Medicaid has qualifying laws. If it's even a possibilty that your H may need to have nursing home care- beyond the 100 days, it helps to know what to do to plan ahead if someone has assets.

It also would be to know how to protect your assets in the event something (hopefully not) would happen to you. In your state, the assets would go to your H. You mentioned you have invested the most in your house, and that your son is in stable financial situation- this is good. He sounds like a reliable person to help manage the finances if that was needed but it needs to be set up with an elder law attorney because, to avoid disqualifying for Medicaid if that were needed and to avoid your H mismanaging them if they went to him.

My parents didn't do this. BPD mother got control of all assets and mismanaged them, to her own detriment. This was a stressful situation as her resources were limited at a time she needed them, and she did not cooperate with a budget or plan. Several trustworthy family members offered to help her with a budget but she refused to cooperate.

You also want to keep sufficient assets for yourself and your own needs should your H need nursing home care so having a Medicaid compliant plan for this could be helpful.

The attorney might also be able to advise you of your options if your H became too abusive for you to manage.

Something to keep in mind if you feel the need for consultation with one.

Hey Jazz,

As you said, the tides have turned and he's now walking on eggshells. That doesn't happen without a realization that there's something off within.  He may never say it out loud and that's okay, because deep down he knows that how he acted was wrong.

I guess my question for you is that now things are better, what have you done to improve the marriage relationship?  I know that probably sounds like a strange question- he's the abuser.  Only, he's not abusing anymore and he's respecting your boundaries. 

While your friends point out that it's only "for now", I'd second-guess their advice to some extent since it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If your husband is a lousy person and you treat him like a lousy person, even when he's not being lousy, then what will happen?  Of course he'll eventually get back to being lousy.

This is actually an opportunity to show him some grace and try to reset the marriage.  And that probably sounds crazy, I know, but what do you have to lose when you feel stuck and there's no other answers?  You can hate him and be miserable, or you can attempt to find a happy medium where you maintain strict boundaries but also love him.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here and very few will agree with me.  But i do think it's worth a shot when there's no other options.  Maybe your husband is a total jerk, but the guy you fell in love with is still in there somewhere as well.  Find that guy once again and let go of everything else.

I suppose the objective way to consider how early is early enough would be to tell her about your plans before you make them.  Of course, in order to keep her from completely sidetracking your plans, your mind, keep a mental "line in the sand" where you won't concede further and will tell her at some point that you're disappointed she's not being cooperative, and you're just going to plan it without her then.  At least that puts her on notice so she can't complaint you've blindsided her.  And don't allow a lot of delaying tactics "Okay, you can see them, but not this month, because reasons"... don't go along with that.  Call it out, and keep going in circles until she relents.

I might say something like "It is simply not fair that you won't allow my family to see our kids.  I can't agree to this any longer.  I want to plan a visit with them.  It doesn't need to be long, and it doesn't have to be every month, but dinner is enough.  You can either plan it with me, or I will make the plans.  You don't have to come if you don't want to, but I hope you do, as it's important for you to be there as my wife." (you might have to practice saying that so it doesn't come off as ridiculous)

Include a lot of conciliatory phrases so it doesn't come off as an ultimatum.  "I love you, and this is important to me" and "I understand your concerns about [insert reference to whatever BS thing she's making up in order to justify alienating you from your family] and I love you and want to do the right thing for you, but I need to see my family sometimes and I want to work this out"  Stuff like that. 

I had a hard time being patient enough to do that, in the face of all the hypocrisy and manipulative nonsense BPDxw was displaying in order to come up with reasons why my mom couldn't visit, couldn't see our daughter, etc., even though near the end of the marriage, her mom was living with us full time.  I guess that's why I'm divorced...

It is understandable you have concerns what your wife might do when she finds out you are planning to get together with your family. Would it possibly make sense to call your wife after you have picked your son up and say you will be late in coming home, will be taking him out to eat, without telling her what restaurant you are going to or that you will be getting together with your family? My guess is any advance notice your wife has will be used to sabotage your time with your family. She can't sabotage an event she does not know about. It seems she is going to act badly no matter what you do, though you might limit how upset she gets by limiting how much you tell her.

One thing I have been doing is try to think of what would be a norpmal response in a non-disordered relationship. ex., If I said I don't know, either is fine to pwBPD's query of Do you want coffee or tea? a normal person would not fy into a rage about how I NEVER know what i want and I ALWAYS say I don't know to anything because i don't really care about or respect them and I can just make my own from now on because i am such as #^%#^@.

What would some normal replies be?
OK, I'll surprise you then.
OK, I'm having coffe e so I'll make you some too.
OK, well, I'll let you decide and make it on your own later.

Sometimes it helps to rmemebr what normal human interactions are like because our lives are so disordered.

That you do not have any court orders regarding parenting or custody makes your situation particularly murky.  What I mean is that in multiple ways or places she could create incidents, portraying herself and the little children as victims and alleging you as a perp or ogre.  I'll cite a few instances in my own post separation ordeal, despite us having a court order in place.

I had chosen to employ a daycare center that my ex had previously used.  Due to prior conflict I had given a copy of our order to the staff.  Well, she arrived early one afternoon and tried to pick up our son about an hour early.  Their services were paid by me and it was still my parenting time so they declined to release our child before the time frame in the order.  Oops, she went too far.  They notified me that they were "withdrawing services" since they naturally didn't want conflict there.  I couldn't blame them.

Another time my ex did not arrive to pick up our child when her time was to start.  So I picked him up.  Later she demanded our child.  I replied he was already with me.  A little later she and a deputy drove up.  She demanded him but I said she didn't pick him up.  The deputy tried to be peacemaker but he didn't know the history of recurring conflict.  He wasn't about to step in, advised her to leave and and told us both to work it out with court.  (She picked him up the next day when I had taken him to daycare again when I went back to work.)

That advice rhymed with what I was told when we were first separated and had no orders yet.  I called and asked the police to accompany me to her place so I could safely see my son.  They declined, stating they would get involved only if I had a court order in hand.  I asked, what if I went anyway and she called them for "help"?  The reply, we will respond.  Since I didn't want to risk arrest, I had to wait to see my child until a few weeks later after court made an order.

In summary, since you are not separated and don't have a family/domestic court order, the police will likely view any conflict as married with both parents have equal but undefined parenting rights.  (The officers' task is merely to defuse the immediate conflict, nothing more.)  They may urge the parents to work it out in court... or they may decide to arrest one or both parents to "defuse" the incident.  Be forewarned that most police have standing policy that if one parent is removed then, unless otherwise indicated, it is the male parent who faces that penalty.

How much earlier do you think would be being up front?
My plan has me telling her ~6 hours before the event. That's not right before, but admittedly still a bit last minute.
I can still do it the previous day if I decide that's better, but not earlier than that unless I move it from Friday to a later date.

My view on this might be clouded. In my mind she will feel betrayed and trampled no matter what, and giving her more time also gives her more time to obsess and lose her mind over it - and to keep escalating to make comply with her wishes again. I see little to gain and potential for lots of madness.

The blowout will come for sure. I am basically just walking over her on this, no other way to see it. I hate to do it, but I don't see any alternatives either.


They know some of it, enough I think. I don't think they would be entirely surprised if she turned up at the restaurant to make a scene.


This bothers me a lot: If she gets unstable enough and I feel compelled to stay home to make sure the child is ok... Then she gets her way by acting crazy enough. So that's not great, but on the other hand, to just leave her with the child if she's having a panic attack or something, or even to try to take the child from her and then leave? Doesn't sound that great either.