Thank you both so very much.  This is incredibly helpful as I prepare for tonight. You saved me from walking in with the wrong list, even though my intentions are the same. I've tweaked it all with your solid advice, Pook075. ForeverDad, you're right she has had many failed relationships, with people who were all "mean" or stopped loving her.

I'm at a point where I feel working together in therapy is the only way, so I agree that framing it as the therapist being there only to guide us as we work through conflict and build trust is the right answer. I truly don't care about winning, so that's easy to say. And I do care about her, so that's easy as well.

Likely your GF has had previous relationships, all of which are probably described as terrible people.  That's how failed relationships are typically seen in an acting-out disordered person's perceptions.  Yet those others likely realized she was dysfunctional and ended it.

Yet you stayed - probably for longer than most have - and it is failing too.  Just because you're one of the Nice Guys and Nice Gals doesn't guarantee a successful relationship.  It takes two people working together to find success.  If you're pulling and she's pushing, it can't become a success.

It sounds like you're expecting a divorce to happen?  However, waiting for her to do something next, to actually divorce you, not just disparage and reject you, is not a strategy.  Yes, she's unhappy (and worse) over so many things about you but ponder that over the years she has never actually gone so far as to end the marriage.  She evidently is comfortable having someone to vilify and to argue with.  That's an unbelievable comfort zone.  But that's not you.

If she were file, can you expect what all the vitriol and false insinuations and allegations it might contain, seeking to get all assets, claiming you should get all the debts, etc?

Wouldn't it be best to get a decent and realistic paperwork filed first?  Sure, she would respond and file her version of reality but at least you would have laid the groundwork.  Fortunately, there are no custody and parenting complications.  Your spouse would try to deflect it into sour grapes and still claim extensive emotional whatever.  But the fact is the divorce should essentially just be simple... dividing assets, debts and various jointly owned items.

A surprising aspect is that you two already have separate residences.  That removes the risk that one of you would have to seek a protection order to force an eviction of the other.

As for items left at her place, ask the police for an escort to reclaim your personal items.  It called a peace or civil standby (?) where an officer of the court is present to ensure an incident doesn't occur.

Hope you don't mind but I've relocated this thread to another board. It should receive a better response at "Spam". Here is the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3062516.0

I have temporarily placed a ">" in the title so that other moderators will know that it has been moved and we don't move it again.

Each of the boards has a unique culture. Descriptions of which members/topics best fit each board are contained in the "DIRECTORY".  Additionally, the charter of each board is contained in the "WHO SHOULD POST ON THIS BOARD?" thread that is pinned at the top of each board.


If you think this move should be reconsidered, please send me a personal message, via "Pvt mail". I'm happy to work with you to get it to the board that makes sense for all.

Sure, keep your part of the dialogue focused on you.  "I want....I need...I feel...I think..."  That's less likely to spiral than if you say, "You always....you act like....you need to stop...etc".   

For example, "You need to be nicer to me" or "You're always arguing over the dumbest things" could be said as "I feel like everything I do upsets you lately."  The first will probably start a fight, the second will definitely start a fight, but the third isn't assigning blame and is a much safer choice.

If she becomes hostile or starts yelling, my go-to with the BPDs in my life is to say, "I care about you and I don't want to argue."  I ALWAYS lead with that.  'I love you/care about you AND...."  When you say, "I care about you BUT...", they somehow only focus on what comes after 'but'.  I think it's because their brain is seeking doom and gloom, so that's what they find.

If they keep trying to argue, I repeat my go-to and add a little more.  "I care about you and I don't want to argue, so I'm going to get off the phone for a bit.  I'll call you back in 30-40 minutes."  See the pattern?  I...I...I...I.  It also sets a boundary in a kind way.

Couples therapy can help, but you have to go into it with the right objectives and goals.  If it's to win an argument, then you'll lose every time.  If it's to get the therapist to take your side and tell her that she's being unreasonable, then you also lose no matter what.  Because if he does tell her she's being unreasonable, then she'll likely feel like she's being ganged up on and never return.

However, if the goal is to actually work through conflict and build trust, there can be positive outcomes.  Again though, you have to stop arguing and make it clear that you're not interested in that.

Question- is there a mutual friend you could ask to grab what you need?  Or even a relative on her side that you get along with?  That would allow you to avoid direct contact and still move quickly.

Like you said, the priority is finding somewhere to live so you can get back to work.  It sounds like getting your stuff back (in another state) will be complicated, so maybe it doesn't have to be a priority.  I agree with you though that getting it over with would feel like an accomplishment!  My worry would be things disappearing.

There's no set rule to reach out or remain no-contact...each situation varies depending on the person.  There's no telling how she might react if you do reach out, so it's hard to give advice there.

I wanted to add: the bottom line is, you're not happy in the marriage, and you've identified why.  You tried to make it work, and you don't owe her anything more than that. 

You can simply leave; you don't need any further justification of that.

I feel like I just gave this advice in another thread.  It's helpful to write things down, or save screenshots or emails, or some hard evidence of past fights so you can "hold on to those feelings" and remember how miserable she made you.  That helps you stay the course.  Look back on those times when things were bad and you were telling yourself "All I want is to be out of this, and be done with this."  That's what you need to remember. 

And when you're out and working on healing, you don't need to do that anymore; you can truly just move on.  But when you're still in this gray area, with your perception of the world still warped by the pwBPD & the way they intentionally mislead you and deny your own experience to suit their interests, it's helpful to hold on to what you know & felt. 

I do think the effect of being in a relationship with a pwBPD - and a marriage no less - does do some deep harm to our worldview and ability to perceive things.  I remember having a lot of ups and downs the week I was moving out and filing for divorce, but then we had a child together and what really tore me up was the feeling of leaving her, not my soon-to-be-ex-wife.  Earlier in our marriage though, I had a lot of the same feelings and would second guess myself like you were.  I think by journaling and taking stock of how I felt, why I felt the way I did, and what I could and should do, it helped me move through it in the end without having any second thoughts. 

Thank you so much. I'm thankful to find this community but sorry your story is similar to mine. What really gets me is that I've allowed myself to stay in this situation so long even though the cycle repeats. I grew up pretty normally and never fought with anyone. Her yelling just froze me the first time and I started to leave then, but her tears and what seemed like remorse pulled me back in. At this point, it feels like she's exploiting my kindness and love for her.

I've asked for couples therapy, and she's always declined. Now I'm reading that it doesn't work with them anyway.

I've said I need her to be nicer to me. How sad is that, to have to ask your partner?

Biggest fight yet just happened to be all in writing, which opened my eyes to just how mean she is and how she spiraled from one thing to everything without taking any accountability herself.

After some (very peaceful) time apart, she now wants to talk by phone. I'm prepared to be as emotionless as possible to avoid arguing. I have my short list of talking points and a statement to use if I need to step away. Any other advice?

Hi again,

I'm glad to help put some things in perspective, even if you probably know most of the themes already. 

I highlighted above a key word in you post, which is "resentful."  That's a sign that you have gone above and beyond to help your dear daughter, but she's probably squandering your help, treating you badly because of it, or both.  It's also a hint that you are probably trying harder to turn your daughter's life around than she is.  Does that sound about right?  I'd say, that even though your daughter is extremely hampered by her intense emotions and negative thinking, that doesn't give her a free pass to treat you badly.  And it doesn't give her an excuse to give up on her life, either.  If you give her money which she sqanders when she's not working on herself, you're basically rewarding and perpetuating dysfunction, while depleting your own resources.  Your daughter might mistakenly think that if she had your money, things would get better for her, and she rationalizes it by blaming you--she feels entitled to your money as compensation for her horrible upbringing.  But money won't cure her, and you know it.  Unfortunately, you can't buy your daughter's love, and you can't buy a cure for BPD either.  Trust me on this.

There's a fine line between support and enablement, and that's a line that many parents here struggle in establishing.  Oftentimes it can seem like financial support is getting in the way, such as by perpetuating negative daily habits (e.g. substance use disorder, long-term unemployment, not adhering to a budget).  But other times, financial support can help your pwBPD get on a path towards making a better life for herself.  Sometimes financial support manages parents' feelings of fear, obligation and guilt (the "FOG"), because a parent can't bear to see their kid living "on the streets."  I guess my litmus test is:  Is the pwBPD generally doing what she's supposed to be doing, i.e. heading in the right direction, and the extra financial support helps lift her up to get to a better place?  Conversely, is the financial support enabling her to quit her life and hate everyone in the process?

My general advice regarding financial support is not to destroy your finances in the vain attempt to "save" your daughter.  If you are working long-term so that she doesn't have to, then I'd say, you have to stop sending her money.  I'd also say, don't send her any money that you can't afford.  Sacrificing yourself will NOT save your daughter.  Don't let her dysfunction take you down with her.  Since you have another daughter and grandchildren, you can think of things this way:  if you redirect most of your retirement resources to your dysfunctional BPD daughter, then who is going to help you when your money runs out?  You will probably become a financial burden to your non-BPD daughter, and you wouldn't want to do that.  So give your non-BPD daughter and your grandkids that gift, of not becoming financially dependent on them.  In the process, you avoid creating family-wide resentments.  Because if you spend most of your retirement money on your BPD daughter, you'd be "rewarding" dysfunction, while penalizing the daughter who has been nothing but good to you.

Look, just because your daughter has BPD, it doesn't mean she's incapable of learning to budget.  If you constantly rescue her from her poor decisions, then she'll never learn how the real financial world works.  If she doesn't learn now, then what will she do when you're gone?  One approach you could use is to ensure your daughter has skin in the game.  If she needs a car, you could help with a car payment, as long as your daughter pays for a meaningful part of it.  Ditto with housing or anything, really.  Another approach is to slow down the parental ATM, and wean your daughter off it.  If your daughter asks for money for the emergency du jour, your default response is, "Let me think about it / let me talk with my spouse first."  You buy yourself some time, at least a week.  Give your daughter some time and space to figure out how to manage her finances!  And it's perfectly OK to say No, or No, I don't have any money to spare, or No, I have to wait until next month when I get Social Security.  Now, upon hearing No, your daughter is likely to have a conniption fit and hurl insults your way.  Just know that that is called an "extintion burst," an amping up of the lashing-out routine that previously worked for your daughter.

If you can't bear to see your grandson suffer, and if your BPD daugher is squandering the money that you do send her, then one suggestion would be to provide support in kind, rather than in cash.  That might look like having food sent directly to her home.  Or maybe offering free babysitting (which I imagine you were providing in the past), and preparing meals for your grandson in person, with provisions you bring with you.  That way, at least you know your money is being spent the way you intended.

As for encouraging your dear daughter to get therapy, I think I'd stay away from that topic for now.  All your daughter will hear is that you don't love her, that you think something's wrong with her, or that you think she's nuts, when she's convinced that YOU are the problem.  My guess is that since you've supported her so much over the years, she's convinced that YOU are ruining her life, and that she has nothing to do with it.  That narrative is actually key to her identity.  She's clinging to the victim mentality like her life depends on it, and in a perverse way, it probably does . . . because if she's not the poor, traumatized kid, then who is she really?  In other words, your daughter isn't "ready" for therapy.  Alas, she probably won't be "ready" until she hits bottom, when therapy is the only remaining option to make her life better.  For as long as she has you around, she'll blame you for everything, while you finance her lifestyle.  Though she's miserable, she's not miserable enough to change the status quo, because the status quo is "working" for her.

If you pull back for a while, my guess is your daughter will try to find someone else to take care of her--a boyfriend, maybe another family member.  My guess is that finding a "replacement caregiver" is increasingly hard for your daughter, because she's getting older, and she has a special-needs kid in tow.  But when that fails, she'll be back.  I don't see this as being too pessimistic, but just realistic, if your daughter isn't getting therapy.

Just my two cents.  Hope that perspective helps.