I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

CC43,
I like both: your suggestions about what to say to end an uncomfortable conversation and how to make friends. I will use those. I am comfortable saying that I am not comfortable discussing something. I like the idea of doing activities I enjoy. Right now, I am far too isolated and spend too much time alone, which makes me a more likely target for disordered people.

Hi again,

One of my strategies is to say, "This topic is stressing me out; let's talk about something else, OK?"  That's pretty easy to say, because it's true!  If she says, "Yes, but . . . " and ignores my request, I'll say something stronger, like, "I'm not comfortable discussing this anymore; if we continue, I'll have to call it a day."  And if she continues, I extricate myself as politely as possible:  "See you later, bye," which is easiest on a phone call.  I call this the "three strikes rule," whereby she CHOOSES whether or not she strikes out.  If she wants to keep the conversation going, eventually she learns to change tack after the first or second warning.  I just try to make the warning about my own discomfort, rather than blaming her.

As for making friends, I think the key is to do stuff you like, and often.  I mean, if you say to yourself, "I want to go on a hike," but you wait to try to find a friend to go with you, chances are you won't go on a hike for a long time.  But if you go on a hike, chances are that like-minded people will find you and join you eventually, especially if you hike locally and often.  Do you remember how it was relatively easy to make friends in grade school?  I think that's because you were in an environment with a peer group on a regular basis.  In adulthood, it's harder to replicate that environment exactly, but it can be found:  at a church, club, gym, park, coffeehouse, supermarket, neighborhood area, volunteer organization, etc.

By the way, the sibling I mentioned previously is going through a divorce and suddenly found himself without a friend group, because the overwhelming majority of his former friends had ties to his ex.  At first, he was depressed and lonely, which was to be expected.  But with the divorce came a new freedom to do all sorts of things that he had long neglected, basically because his ex didn't like anything he liked.  One time, when he was feeling especially down, I said, "Brother, just humor me for a minute.  Don't think too hard, but tell me one of your favorite memories, whatever pops into your head."  He named something, and I said, "Great, how about another one?"  He complied, and I repeated, "Great, how about another one?"  And so on, for around a dozen happy memories.  Then I reflected and said to him, "Well, it seems to me that most of your happy memories involve something sporty or adventurous, typically outdoors, and something intimate, with just one or two close friends.  (I didn't say it at the time, but none of the happy memories involved his wife, sadly.)  It seems to me that to feel happy again, you should focus on those sorts of activities.  Why don't you schedule something soon?  The good news is he did just that.  He reached out to a couple of old buddies.  And the more he started with the activities, the more he met like-minded people.  He doesn't need a ton of friends, just a handful of good ones.  Soon enough, he made new friends and got himself invited to all sorts of cool activities.

Notwendy and CC43,
Your feedback is very helpful and heartwarming. Thank you. We have had similar experiences in recognizing we are dealing with a disordered person and distanced ourselves if necessary and/or accepted that we have been cut off. What bothers me the most is we are more likely to be targeted by disordered people because of other previous disordered close relationships. With time, we have gotten better at seeing the red flags sooner.

I know that I listen to a person's problems way past what is healthy for either me or that person. Very few people except for her personal therapist if she had one would have listened to this woman for such a long time. There are several people I no longer interact with because of the one sided nature of our relationships: I listened to their monologues while there was little or no reciprocity, which is what I used to do with my mother with BPD. Perhaps you can give me some advice on how to end the one sided relationships sooner.

On my recent birthday, I got a text wishing me Happy Birthday from my disordered neighbor, the one I no longer speak to whom I described in a previous thread. The other neighbors cut her off a long time ago. I think this neighbor is trying to reconnect because I gave her the undivided attention that she craves. It really turned my stomach when I received her birthday card. She will never accept that I am a separate person from her, worthy of the kind of respect and kindness I showed her.

For years, I was uncomfortable making friends with people who did not share their problems with me. That has changed. I now have a few close good friends. I am now comfortable with safe people with healthy boundaries. For several years, I have been ending more quickly relationships that are one sided conversations in which I give my undivided attention to a disordered person. Still a work in progress.

I recently bought a book on how to make friends. I am lonely and need to learn more about how to make and keep friends.I do believe that it is the loneliness that makes me more likely to spend my time listening to the monologues of disordered people.  Most of my friends have their own families, and their priorities are to spend more time with their children and grandchildren. I do not have children.

My 26 year old step-daughter has BPD and possible schizoaffective disorder. We've been limited contact for several years and no contact for the past 2 years. She burned her family and friend bridges years ago. During her teen years, she bounced between her mother's and our house, depending on with whom she was least angry. The last time we spoke, she was desperate for a place to live because no one else would let her live with them. We told her that she could only live with us if we had a peaceful house, she agreed to not abuse drugs and alcohol while living with us, and she comply with her mental health treatment plan. After living with us for 3 months, we would expect her to add moving forward with engaging in adult responsibilities by doing 40 hours a week of self-supporting activities such as working on her college degree, working, volunteer work, and/or helping around the house. She told us that she wasn't going to "kiss your @sses for a place to live." We told her that was her choice.

We found her a living shelter for people with mental health challenges. They asked her to leave after 2 weeks because she was causing problems with the other residents. She lived in her car for a few weeks and then we were able to get her into another shelter. We don't really know what happened there but she was there for about a year. Then she ended up at her mother's parents' house, even though in the past she didn't like them. Living with them, she's been in and out of inpatient treatment. They have gotten to the point where they won't allow her to live with them either. We're not sure of what happened but she has a history of toxic behavior including hours daily of exploding at people if they will listen, and serious false accusations.

She's really intelligent, so in the past, when she went into treatment, when she started to improve a bit, she became really good at masking her challenges. The past few times have been different and the hospital took her to court and got her a 1 year commitment to a state psychiatric facility. Again, we don't know much about what's happening other than she doesn't want to go, she's been refusing meds, and she's on a behavior plan. She has gotten into contact with my husband through texts and calls. She desperately wants us to hire a lawyer for her so that she doesn't get committed. My husband told her no and that he believes that she needs the help. The third time she called about this and he said no again, she threatened to kill him and stomp all over his dead body. When he didn't respond in rage, she started to accuse him of r@ping her all of her life as a threat. She has made these types of accusations towards him, her brothers, me, and several boyfriends in the past, telling anyone who will listen. She has also told her aunt that everyone in her life has abused her.

I know that she's feeling ashamed, scared, desperate, and feeling deeply out of control. I know that her mental illness is deeply painful for her. I love her but I don't like her right now and I'm afraid of her. I hate that she's going to have to spend time in a state hospital. I'm pretty sure that she's lashing out because she feels trapped by the involuntary commitment, especially considering that no one will help her in challenging it.

My husband and I have both been documenting conversations with her. While she doesn't call me, I listen in on the calls as a witness. After the last accusation and threat, my husband hung up and won't return calls or texts. What else can we do to protect ourselves? How can (should) we know if she's safe to be around? The false accusations were one thing, but threats of harming us are different.

The reason not to isn't about not defending yourself. It's that it's a waste of your time and energy to do it. Also, in a way it validates it. If it's not true, then there isn't anything to defend.

Defense is necessary when it crosses the line to slander, affecting your work or other important aspect of your life. In this case one needs an attorney.

But the ones where you are falsely accused of nonsense- it's a waste of your time. I compare these arguments to peeing in the wind. It all comes back at you. They project it or dissociate.

An exercise that helped me to resist JADE is to substitute something absurd for the accusation, like calling you a pink elephant. If someone thinks you are a pink elephant, it's so far out there, it's beyond the need to defend it.

Be kind to yourself Zachira - sometimes we don't see it. My BPD mother could have long term friendships with people who had no idea, but then at some point, she'd turn on them, paint them black, they'd either disappear or she'd be done with them, and when she is done, she's done.

She had a neighbor who she was long term friends with. We were very grateful for that neighbor as the neighbor was closer to her than we are and could check on her if we had a concern. Then one day, something happened, I don't know what, and they were no longer friends.

It happened to me too. We had a long friendship with a couple. Then, the wife had a conflict with someone I know casually, and then cut off everyone connected to that person. We were all blocked, unfriended, and she has refused any social events involving everyone-even if that person isn't attending. I have seen the husband a few times on his own and someone asks about his wife, he offers an excuse for her. I know to not bring it up.

This affected me a lot, more than it affected the other people she discarded. To them, they've rationalized that this isn't something they want to deal with. For me, I grieved it. It was difficult. Then it dawned on me- this is the same dynamic I saw in my parents, where my father covered for my mother. I wasn't only reacting to beind discarded by this woman, it was similar to the dynamics with my parents.

I also reacted to the horror of the level of destruction. I didn't even do anything to this woman. My presumed "guilt" was associating with someone she had issues with- real or not. The selfishness of her decision- changing entire family friendships over this.

I didn't see this about her, not for years. I assumed all was "normal". So we may not see it at all, unless something happens and we do. Maybe others see it before we do but we do eventually. Once we see it, we see it. When you know, you know.

The reason to not JADE is basically to save yourself from an impossible endless argument.

You know your BPD partner is talking nonsense and accusing you of the absurd.

You know your truth.

JADE only exhausts you.  Eventually you learn to bite your tongue until you get a chance to walk away.  Any yes, usually happens in the car.  Almost every time.  Focus on the road signs until you are someplace safe and then go for a walk. 

I disagree with this statement & way of looking at it, because this implies that the burden & issue is with the non-disordered partner, and there's something the non-disordered partner could do to resolve the issue.  But there isn't; the issue is entirely within the mind of the disordered partner... whether it's BPD, or some other personality disorder, or some combination of both.

The "Black Hole" analogy is more apt; no matter what you do, the BPD-er will demand more, because it's not about getting any demand met, it's having you chase them.  Their deep-seated insecurity always needs more; they always need to see you pursuing them, because the second you're not, their fears of abandonment kick in. 

I experienced this first hand for years; BPDxw's demands were either impossible to fulfill, vague or contradictory.  Fights were not intended to actually resolve anything, but a means to create the constant attention she needed.  Indeed, during our last abortive attempt at marriage counseling, this issue was brought out when I presented some fairly objective demands to continue the marriage: stop fighting in front of kids and stop accusing me of infidelity.  When the counselor asked her what I could do in return, she said "he needs to love me enough."  When the counselor pointed out that was a subjective standard, and impossible to comply with, BPDxw started yelling at the counselor and refused to go back. 

Thanks Me. It’s great  to hear others have experienced the same nonsense. It’s like they have to find fault with almost everything. Criticise me and judge over the smallest thing then I’m the bastard because I deny or tell her I don’t want to talk about it as it’s not true …and I know where it’s going …to an ending that is once again going to put me down or force me to agree with her , then chucks a wobbly because I’m once again shutting her down. You can’t ever win an argument with them or point out their illogical accusations. I think I have been accused of almost everything …every adjective that’s for sure. Mine even accused me of driving my beloved wife to suicide ! And then refused to apologise and offered all this rationale as to how and why I did such a thing. Shame on me. For allowing things to continue after that.