Hi there,

That's a tricky situation.  I'm not sure if I'm reading things correctly, but you think that your man increasingly sees you as content and self-reliant.  He thinks you appear to be indifferent to whether or not he spends the night with you, whether or not he helps with bills/chores/kids.  In short, you're not phased by his moods, and you let him have his space to calm down and do as he pleases, while you try to live your best life.  Rather than interpret the situation in a positive way (you are giving your man freedom to come and go as he pleases, to take the space he needs to self-regulate), he's thinking you don't NEED him, and he finds that upsetting.  After all, he appears to be losing his control, his power over you and your feelings.  His reaction?  He tries to provoke you, with passive-aggressive hostility, anything to get a rise out of you, to force you to MATCH his emotions.  It sounds to me like he's actually upset that he's not getting under your skin as he usually does.  Even your young child detects that he's in a mood and unfairly picking on you.  Does that sound about right?

I guess I'd advise to hold your "boundary" (not to get sucked in to his negative behavior/attitude, and not let his outbursts get in the way of you going about living your life in a healthy/productive way).  My thinking is, don't "dignify" his little meltdown with a text message.  I'd say, wait until he returns and is in a good mood, and then provide praise and reassurances.  If you jump the gun, he might still be in a funk and take your message the wrong way.  Worse, he might take a message as an invitation to start a text war.

Now, I'm not saying that you should stonewall him whenever he wants to broach an important topic, such as the divorce he brought up.  It's just that it sounded to me like he wasn't trying to have a real discussion, but that he was making a scene, an empty threat, in front of your young child no less, just to unleash some of his anger your way, pique you and get you riled up.  I think in that situation you did well to remain calm and defuse the situation by going upstairs.

I imagine that by now you've seen on these boards the advice not to JADE--justify, argue, defend or explain--whenever your loved one with BPD is having a meltdown.  I've found that avoiding JADE is helpful when loved ones are dysregulated, and instead I pretend to be a gray rock (still, solid and boring), and I usually give them some space as soon as physically possible.  I think of this as an "adult time out."

Thank you CC, you are spot on!

Question, my uBPDh stayed at the house last night. He usually stays on Wednesday nights, as he takes the kids to school on Thursdays since I work. But our daycare lady was sick, so k had to stay home with our daughter. My H shows up around 9pm on Wednesday night. We were all in bed, our youngest son was in bed with me. My tells our S7 that he is going to help put him to sleep then he was going to go downstairs to sleep (the last part was a jab at me!) I ignore it and fall asleep my self. I wake up a little later and he is passed out in bed. I fall back asleep. A little bit later, I feel my h climbing into bed on my side wanting to cuddle. He then told me how much he loves me, etc. The morning rolls around and he takes our S7 to the bus stop while I finish getting our d5 ready and when he gets back he is in a terrible mood. His mood deteriorates even more as the day goes on. I try really hard to just have regular conversations with him and it’s like pulling teeth. We pick our d5 up from school and he decides he is going to go back to his place, but before he does so, he starts in on how we need to talk about ending things/divorce. I told him that I was not doing this with him and walked away. He then said that he’s not happy and “it’s gonna happen”. At this point our daughter starts to wine and tell him to stop and leave mom alone. I said just so you know, your happiness comes from within and I really hope he is working on this in his therapy…he interrupts and starts yelling at me since our daughter is wineing, I go upstairs and he try’s to be fake to our daughter trying to laugh etc. Hw then yells up to me bye and I say bye and then my daughter tells me to stay upstairs until she sees dad is gone. Deep down, I know that this comes from him seeing that I am happy, I have organized our life to continue forward no matter if he wants to participate or not,  etc. i feel like this outburst of his came from fear and I would like to send him a text that reassures him I am here for him, but I am not a “punching bag”. I was thinking of saying something like this…I am sorry you are struggling so badly right now. I want you to know that I am here for you and I love you.  BUT…I feel like that is a lot of “you” statements, how do I switch that around?

Of course it's not your business... well, yeah, if he doesn't mind that you decide to end the relationship.  You have concerns.  And those concerns are strong enough to be deal breakers.


Your kids have been exposed to his aggressive behavior for half their lives, their formative lives.  What they have learned and experienced in their youth will impact their decisions as adults.  Will they form their own adult relationships based on what they live with now - call it a familiar "comfort zone" - whether choosing people like him (disrespectful and disparaging, etc) or like you (allowing partners to be disrespectful or disparaging, etc)?

Eight years and he still exhibits poor behavior, perhaps it is worse now than years ago for all we know.  Whether he is ever diagnosed as having BPD or any other traits, whether he is ever treated successfully or not, the decision remains yours whether to continue the relationship.

Here is a partial quote from one of the best articles by clinical psychologist Dr Joe Carver:

Dr Joe Carver has long since retired and his website is gone but this link has an entire article to download:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305771.0
If you wish to view his other handouts, read my notes I posted to that thread on using "web.archive.org" to find his archived website.

You're right about that; the sooner the better in my opinion, to preserve your own wellness and hers.  My husband and I got to a similar place with his adult BPD daughter.  Historically, he "fixed" everything, apologized for triggering HER outbursts, bailed her out over and over again, gave her oodles of spending money and let her live with us while she was a non-contributing, negative, often hostile presence.  But gradually over the last couple of years, we've declined to manage her life as much, "engage" with her tantrums and absorb so many negative behaviors.  We are weaning her off financial support, which has compelled her to work and to start to support herself more independently.  I'd like to say that she feels great about carving out an adult's life for herself; maybe she does.  But she's raging mad at her dad for the new boundaries, and she hasn't talked to him in months.  Well, not really, because she'll text when she needs something.  I'm just waiting for the next need to pop up, and my prediction is that will happen in mid or late spring, when I calculate that she'll run out of the graduation and other money given to her.

I guess the good news during this period of estrangement is that my husband can keep tabs on her through her therapist.  He knows that if something goes awry, the therapist will reach out.

It's really sad, I know.  Sometimes I marvel at how tenacious she is about weaving stories of victimhood, if only she'd flip a  switch and change her mental energy from a negative to a positive, she'd be amazing.

Having read more of your posts on this, it may help if I hypothetically put myself in your GF's situation. This is guessing but I think I can put some perspective on your concern.

A red flag can be about the person, or the situation, or the timing. Maybe better in terms of stop signs, red lights, or yellow lights here.

Even if you are only married legally, and there's no relationship left- you are still married. This means there's some unfinished business.

For some women, a married man is a red light- stop, turn around. In this situation, it appears the two of you took this slow and the relationship evolved but your being married, still means you are not fully available. That some time has passed and you are not divorced, would raise the question of why? So a question from someone interested in you could be-

Why are you still married? and "If your spouse wanted to reconcile, would you go back to her?".

Even if a person is divorced, they may have unfinished emotional work to do, and if so, that person isn't fully emotionally available. Another question would be "are you still working out your own emotions about the relationship splitting up?" There's no timeline for this. If you still do, then you aren't fully emotionally available for a committed relationship.

Most adults know that not every relationship will go to marriage. However, I think someone would want to know that commitment is a possible outcome before becoming very emotionally invested and committed to that person. At the moment, with you being legally married- even if only legally, a full commitment isn't possible.

It seems your concern with your current GF is that she isn't as available to you or as committed to you as you wish she was. You want her to reply to your texts sooner. You want her to spend less time with her child's father.
 
At the moment though, she's still the "other woman". (I hope you have told her you are married). This is not a desirable situation and also has a stigma to it. This is a reason for her to not be fully invested.

Her main priority is her child. That her ex is over a lot may be their parenting agreement. She's probably not going to compromise her child's time with his father or the child's well being on the basis of a dating relationship.

If this is a red flag for you, or an undesirable situation for you, this is something to consider if you want to continue your relationship with her.

IMHO, if you want someone to commit to you, to make you their priority person, then you would need to also be fully available to do that with them too. You would also need to choose someone who is able to do that with you. At the moment, you aren't- either legally, emotionally or both. It may take you some additional time to get there- and that's OK if you need it.

It's possible that there aren't "red flags" with either of you as people but that there are red lights, stop signs, or at least yellow lights in your situations. Maybe even a U turn one. It may help to think about where you are at in the possible commitment process.

If I could make a suggestion- these "crisis" situations also have a secondary gain for her in the form of attention. When you are in a circular argument, or helping her process her feelings- she becomes your focus.

When she came home upset that this other woman had another relationship, I think it's a natural inclination to look at this as something to solve for her or help her to solve. The additional drama feels like more drama for you but it's actually her own issue. You can be a supportive listener without feeling like it's your role to fix or help her process. Validation is enough "that must have felt bad" and then let her sit with her own feelings. You can encourage her by saying "I know you can handle this well".

Sometimes the only way for someone to learn is through the experience. If you  are able to help and fix less, your wife will experience her own feelings more. I know you have empathy for her and also want to keep the peace at home but perhaps her own feelings are the better learning experience. Of course we don't let people we care about put themselves in a dangerous situation if we can help it but this was one for which the consequences were hurt feelings.

I think you had no control over this situation to begin with. She's an adult. She could be on a shopping website or a dating website- how would anyone know. IMHO, the boundary was crossed when going on a dating site. Maybe her initial interest in this was for attention, but I also think she knew it wasn't what the two of you had agreed on.  Maybe an element of the conflicting discussions with you was her need to have this action absolved by your agreement. Hard to know.

I believe that from that point, no discussion would have changed her mind. I think the resulting time and circular discussions had the secondary gain of attention on her, which also made her feel valued but then, there's no resolution from that. She knows that all she needs to say is something irrational like "you aren't letting me sleep around" and you then try to convince her otherwise.

Like my BPD mother, many of her ideas would not result in follow through on her part but they did get a reaction from us, and attempts to stop or intervene and these would become emotionally charged conflicts- with resulting attention to them.

Hopefully this experience will help you decide your response when future "needs" are brought up. You may want to consider not fixing or helping her with her feelings as much. We've all been or are on a learning curve with this.

The thinking doesn't make sense. It's disordered thinking. Trying to rationalize with someone who is thinking like this ends up in circular arguments.

It's also projection- someone or something else is the "reason" for the issues and someone or something else must be the solution.

A main component of boundaries is knowing who you are- what is you, what isn't you. If someone has a poor sense of self, poor boundaries, they may be more influenced by ideas and identities but not realize the actual reality of it.

I don't think what your wife is seeking is just about having an urge. By going on the website, she shows up as a new person, with a new persona. No baggage or issues with anyone. She can then interact with people who are interested in her as this new person. It's seeking affirmation, positive attention. She can be an "open marriage" person in this new world.

Not with you. You know her better. She can't pretend to be someone else with you. I watched my BPD mother do this.  There were a few times I'd be with her and her set of friends and think "who is this person" she seemed so different.

Somehow this met an emotional need for her. While at first, it feels envious that someone else got this "great" persona, I realized it wasn't real.

What you see with your wife, is the real one, not the persona, and as hard as it is, it's the real relationship, the good, the difficult.

Thanks for the replies, it helps to feel validated and not alone.  We're not married, I own the property , we share a dog (though he's still not paid half her purchase price after 5 years so I guess I own her)

The assessments I mention have followed his requesting his GP for a referral - as far as he's telling me they have been regular meetings to look for a variety of mood/personality disorders but when I push further I get told its none of my business....

It's come to a head this last week after a week away with a group of friends which he felt went well but I felt like I was walking on eggshells around his constant changing moods (only directed at me really) the minute drinks were late to be bought out or we were waiting for something longer than he liked he'd be snappy and accusatory of me and it generally felt he didn't like me very much.  On Sunday after an argument over what we were having for dinner (apparently I wouldnt tell him what I wanted in order to orchestrate an argument - in reality I told him a dozen times 2 different options I was happy to go with) he escalated by raising his voice (I have 2 kids from a previous relationship 13 and 15 and I hate him shouting and swearing when they're there)  At one point I took a phone call and he came over and got in my face (I was holding a lit cigarette) and knocked it out of my hand - he accused me of trying to put a cigarette out on him.....he hates my friendship group and frequently makes snide remarks about me going to "my club" to "get my head patted" and that we sit around "being smug and congratulating ourselves about how I'm so abused"  -  the reality is I try NOT to talk about him or moan about him if at all because I don't want to cast a bad opinion , or a worse opinion (he's had melt downs at our local pub , one time kicking as smashing a portable speaker I have down the road in front of people)

I said he needed to leave and I've had a barrage of abusive texts since , littered with emojis (rats and clowns to depict me being his favourites).  I've said I'm not responding to abusive messages, I need space and I will converse about practical matters only.

He still has a lot of belongings in my house and has been coming over each morning after I've left for work to take the dog to work with him.

I said my kids don't need to put up with his insanity- he's said I'm portraying the children as terrified of him - they're not they're just sick of his tantrums (and view them as him acting like a child)

so now we're apart- coincidentally happened on pay day (another trigger for him when I ask for his contribution towards bills there is often a big argument caused so he can avoid paying - or drip feed me whilst he wastes all hi money on gambling drinking and takeaways.

Sorry I've totally rambled

We are of course here in remote peer support.  Thus our insight into the specifics of your relationship are limited.  Even if he is going to assessment sessions, neither we nor you know what he is telling them.  It's even possible he is telling them that you're his problem.  That's called Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting, all common patterns in BPD traits.

You've been with him for 8 years and yet this negativity and verbal abuse continues.  While his now meeting with professionals to assess him may lead toward him a measure of recovery, awareness of his abuse and correcting his poor behavior, that is certainly no guarantee your hopes will be realized.

Why hasn't he responded to your efforts?  BPD is an emotional dysregulation disorder that is most evident and most triggered by and with close relationships.  What this means is that his lack of improvement over the years is not surprising.  Many people with BPD traits (pwBPD) can't or won't get past the emotional baggage of the relationship to truly listen and respond positively.

Maybe he will respond to the professional - not emotional - approach of the therapists.  Frankly, even that is a huge maybe.  Likely this has been him for a lifetime and many pwBPD are "set in their ways".  You will have to be the one to decide whether and when to cut him lose.  (That's a fishing analogy.  As in, you can toss the problem fish back and choose healthier fish in the sea.)  We are here for you whichever path you choose.

Even if you're not married, this Divorcing board can also assist you with the practical and legal issues of separating, if that is what you decide.  Of course, we are not lawyers or solicitors.

Do you share children?  That can make separation more complicated but separation can still be a practical solution.  Meanwhile, continue reading, learning, posting and asking questions.  We have a wealth of hard-won ideas, skills and solutions.  Take advantage of our collective wisdom and experience.

AngelofItaly how are things going?  Is your daughter still going NC with you?  I hope you are hanging in there.  It can feel torturous at times.  My daughter just went NC with me yesterday and the day before she told my husband she was pregnant.  She doesn't live with us and is married and has her own home so I am grateful she has stability in her life and we are not living with the drama day to day but her behaviour has been so hurtful especially towards me.  I think she intentionally only told her dad the news to hurt me.  All I can say is I decided I needed to set a firm boundary and she didn't like it and has been trying to get me to pay the price for her pain as a result of my boundary and because I am not giving her what she wants in the way she wants to hear it she has chosen to cut me off.  I am grateful i have my husbands support and we are trying to learn about BPD but Ihave had such a stressful two months dealing with my husbands health issues and my own I need the break from her.  Based on other peoples experiences on here I suspect she will try and text me wtih more of her blaming and hurtful texts.  I have blocked her on my cell because reading the texts are so hard on me I start to get heart palpitations every time. i have to take care of my health.  I am giving this over to God.