I do think kids are more sensitive to this than we give them credit for.  And they do not like at all to see one parent with another adult like that.  I think it's more instinctive on their part, even if they don't understand a thing about what an affair entails.   

And I think, being that pwBPD need to perpetually be the victim & are constantly playing games to drag in "allies" against their supposed perpetrator, in this case she'd be extra sensitive to the fact that this dynamic is going to flip against her dramatically if/when the kids find out that mom is seeing someone else.  Hence her insistence that he agree to her having an affair, to make him into an "accomplice" here, rather than the victim. 

And from my experience, a pwBPD would likely go even further than that, if confronted by the kids, pinning their whole affair on the other spouse for giving permission - even if they took the permission further than it was okay to go - and continuing to "rewrite the narrative" over time as much as they can get away with, to put all the blame on the non-, in order to preserve their standing with the kids. 

I do agree with you here.  I think Max needs to nip this in the bud; the more she keeps the conversation going, the more likely words will get misconstrued, or she'll succeed in trying to wear him down, and getting some sort of permission.

Like I said before, I think this is unusual in that it's such a "dealbreaker" kind of thing for a monogamous relationship, to see a pwBPD push for the right to have an affair, as their next thing to fill the bottomless pit.  It's almost like she's trying to push for such an extreme right that it will justify just about anything else she wants to do. 

I know there are lots of examples of the BPD spouse cheating on these boards, but I don't recall ever reading an account of them asking permission first.

Just found this site.  I recently read Stop Walking on Eggshells and FINALLY all the confusion and pain in my marriage makes sense.  No doubt my husband has BPD and NPD.  Forty years of the same arguments, highs and lows, mind games, feeling like I'm the only one trying to make sense of it all. 

Right now I am in the process, a lifetime process I'm sure, of changing my thinking and responses, trying to balance accepting that HE is the way he is and he's probably not going to change much,  (we are in our early 60s!)with what about the rest of my life?  We also have an adult daughter with PTSD, I know that's not what this site is about, but there are similarities and any coping skills and more I can learn will help life with both of them.

That's my short introduction.  I am excited to read other posts. 

Sancho/Confused,

I think you've got that right!  Validation might work during a emotional processing session, but probably not during an enraged blamefest.  I think EAR (empathy, attention, respect, right?) might help someone release emotions and better understand a difficult situation, with the objective of relieving pain and maybe coming up with some ways to cope, reconcile or troubleshoot.  But a blamefest is a verbal onslaught meant to punish, control and deflect responsibility.  I guess a conversation could start out as a venting/processing session, but quickly pivot into an enraged blamefest.

Win, what stands out to me is your daughter fixating on seemingly minor things that happened so long ago.  I could be wrong and she could be "traumatized" by her middle school wardrobe, but my bet is she is having current difficulties and disappointments that she just can't handle.  I guess that's why I'd try to shift the conversation to the present (if she's still listening to you).  You might say, Alas, we can't change the past.

There were a couple of times I was feeling fed up when my BPD stepdaughter tried to dredge up ancient history again.  That's when I said, Look, you've talked about this several times, and each time you only get madder.  We can't change the past, so what's the point of rehashing it again?  She might say, You deserve to be punished.  And you might say, So what if I'm punished?  Punishing me will not make you feel any better, now would it?  I actually said something along these lines to my BPD stepdaughter, and she looked shocked as she realized that punishing someone else wouldn't make her feel any better.

Thanks everyone. I'm going to use EAR as a validation tool but not when she's attacking me. Unfortunately she hasn't reached a point yet where grievances with me can be discussed in a healthy way, so any time there's an issue from her perspective, her "go-to" is to attack my character, motives etc., use foul language, and turn up the volume. That's when I feel I have no but to disconnect. I really wish she'd finally see the value in practicing DBT.

I don't think I can agree with the initial part of that explanation. When you say, "They couldn't say how they actually felt," you imply that they were feeling too vulnerable and couldn't open up because they didn't want to be judged, and then the inner tension that was built inside them exploded as something else, right?

But if that was the mechanism, it would make sense to think that with someone who they fully trust and feel comfortable in opening up to, such as their therapist, they would never act out and instead would just open up. However, the reality is that, as a rule that makes up part of how DBT was developed, each DBT therapist needs their own therapy to "heal" themselves from the accusations, the outbursts, and all of the nonsense thinking that comes from their BPD clients.

You can see a video about Jordan Peterson being a victim of this in this video: https://youtu.be/OT1LOTyFBaY?t=10373

He got his job threatened in 2016 because of a vindictive client that accused him of sexual harassment. The only evidence was that he rolled his wedding ring on his finger during the therapy session, and she misinterpreted that as some dark underlying desire. In the video, he doesn't say she had BPD, but I believe she did.

So in my understanding, the mind of the pwBPD fabricates those interpretations with an unconscious goal of creating a dynamic that will make them feel threatened. And I think a good explanation of this fabrication comes from how the "interpreter module" creates the distorted thinking, as described in the video below. That happens when there isn't enough information to explain something the person did or something they are feeling. The "interpreter module" then snaps in and fabricates a logical and "convincing" (but nonsensical) explanation. The video talks about the findings that were made when studying people who went through the split-brain surgery and how those findings invalidate the concept of "free will":
https://youtu.be/_TYuTid9a6k

This is a very interesting, funny, and entertaining video. You won't regret watching it.

From a child's point of view, I think this is a valid concern- what will the kids' think? But if she was concerned about what the kids will think, she wouldn't consider it. Also, the concept of infidelity may not be relevant to the kids at their age. It's an adult situation and beyond a child's comprehension. Kids might learn a rated G version of the 10 Commandments but a simplified form. What their mother does with another partner- they aren't going to see it or hopefully not be told about it.

As a child and teen, what I thought about my BPD mother was formed through her behavior at home. What was confusing is that it was normalized. For kids, their home is their example of "normal". As an older child/teen I could see that my friends' mothers didn't act like that, but we kids didn't have a say about BPD mother's behavior.

A parent's relationship with a child is formed on how a parent relates to them, not what that parent does with anyone else. I don't know if BPD mother ever had an affair or not but that would not have made a difference to what we thought of her as kids, or teens, compared to our relationship with her.

Kids also learn from both parents. If you want your kids to learn about monogomy, then you would need to role model that for them. While you can't control your wife's choices, you can hold on to your own moral code. One possible reason she may want you to agree to an open marriage is that, if you do, and you do it yourself- then it may avoid shame for her, after all if what she's doing isn't OK, you doing it might make it OK. If you think it's not OK for her than it needs to be not OK for you.

One option is to say to her "I understand you want an open marriage and I don't. I wish that you didn't want to date other people but I also can't control your decisions. On my part, I will remain monogomous. I've said all I can about this topic and don't wish to discuss it further".

Then you walk away from this, the decision is up to her now. Don't say what you would do if she did have an affair. She knows how you feel. Let her think things over.

Yes, I read an excellent post on quora the other day on this subject, saying in order to help you must facilitate. The poster gave the example of his brother being an alcoholic that had lost his wife, lost his job, lost his home and was living in his truck. He could try and persuade him to go to AA meetings, and offer him a place to stay, but this wouldn’t help because he knew he would just go back to drinking two bottles of vodka a day. So he would wait until his brother got to the point that he got in contact himself and asked for a place to stay. And after he left he then waited for his brother to contact him again saying that he needs to change and needs to get help, so he then offered him information on AA meetings and offered him a lift to get there.

It is then his brother that is initiating his own recovering, while he is facilitating the help required for him to do so.

As I understand it, mental issues and behavioral disorders aren't black and white diagnoses, like having the flu or COVID, where you know they're each caused by a specific pathogen you can test for. 

Mental illnesses are more like a convenient grouping for doctors and mental health professionals to classify and attempt to treat disorders and mental illnesses, based on some common traits and patterns of behavior. 

From this site above (link: https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder), there's this statement:


I'd read more about it here, and elsewhere online.  But a lot of what you've described fits most of the criteria.  And the fear of abandonment can manifest in other ways, such as self-sabotaging relationships before they get to a point where the parties are committed enough that one party leaving the other would trigger those feelings of abandonment.

I think for example, if someone leaves her fairly soon after meeting her, then she can chalk that up to them being liars, cheaters, afraid of commitment, not enough for her, not man enough to handle her, etc. and  she doesn't have to consider that she pushed them away by her own behavior; that she is flawed in some way.


I don't think you should focus on the trees (i.e. a specific diagnosis) more than the forest (the behavior you're trying to avoid).  You know enough to know that she's generally a difficult person (to put it nicely).  I'd say her behavior is toxic and destructive.  Don't waste your time trying to parse that out further and see what makes her tick. 

You made a mistake by getting too involved early on.  Chalk it up to that, and move on, but understand it's not going to be painless; when she sees your lack of interest, that will probably trigger some feelings in her and spur her to try to rekindle something; pwBPD LIKE to be chased; they crave that attention.  That fills "the void" inside them. 

I think it's in your best interest to read more about this on the site - especially other threads in this section from guys who've been in your shoes - and understand her behavior is not about you, and there's nothing you can do to change it.  Don't let this shake your confidence in yourself or feel that you somehow could have done better by her. 

Imagine you're on a ship at sea, and you survive a violent storm.  you're curious now whether it was a hurricane, how powerful the wind was, what caused it, etc.  And that's normal... but don't need to sail back into it to try to find out!  Nor should you.  You can observe from a distance, heal, learn & understand why you allowed this person to trample over you for the brief time you were together, and also understand there's a lot you can't know because pwBPD hide a lot of secrets (or lie about them), and learn to be satisfied with that. 

No that wouldn’t be the reason for telling her if that were to happen. The reason I might think about telling her would be for transparency. There are also some behaviours on her part that I see as a potential problem but this may well just be me over thinking because I’ve been in a relationship with someone displaying borderline traits. I’ve spoken about the fact I can message her and not get a response for a couple of hours yet she is active online so it appears she is ignoring me, and that has improved since I mentioned it, but what I haven’t spoken to her about because I think I may be over reacting is the amount of time her ex, the father of her son, spends around her house considering they split up 7 years ago. So mentioning my wife trying to re connect might nudge her into being a bit more committed but then is that on the edge of being triangulation.

Hi, you are describing my situation precisely. I agree with Sancho… the difference is you can listen for emotion and validate feelings about life events or even about your own relationship with her if she’s somewhat regulated.

However, for me, validation does not work because it’s rare she’s regulated about me. She sees me as the cause of all bad things. So, it opens the door to responses like- no, you don’t understand. Or - well if you see I’m sad, do something… you cause this. Then you are off to the races explaining, defending etc. and it fuels more anger.

That’s when I’ve moved to a limit. “We don’t see things the same way,  and I won’t discuss the past anymore. Is there something else you want to discuss?.”

I think validation does defuse interactions, but when it’s personal anger with you as the trigger, to me, it opens the door to more anger and blaming.