The concept of "being good" was emphasized for me early on. I recall BPD mother saying that someone was "being good".

I did try to be a "good daughter" too but if there was one error- one thing that displeased BPD mother, then whatever efforts I had made, whatever things I did that had been "good" seemed to be "dry erased" in her mind.

One idea about why this felt so irrational may be a mismatch of what was "being good". My own concept of "being good" was shaped by pleasing my parents, and as I matured,  by the common shared ethical principles in our culture and faiths. These are more constant. While people aren't perfect and can make errors, the good things they do or did don't disappear with one of them.

For example- Methuen making her mother maid of honor, helping her mother when she fell- these are generally considered good deeds, the kind of actions of someone who is a good daughter. However, if to our BPD mothers, "being good" means meeting their needs in the moment- and in one moment we aren't doing that- these other acts aren't in their consciousness in that moment, and so not registered as "good" to them.

One contingency for her was to be compliant, so having boundaries was upsetting to her.  Where I could also see this was with her caretakers and medical providers in her elder years. They could be very competent but if they had a boundary with her, to her, they were not- in that moment.

When I look back at some of my daughter's closest relationships, it makes me scratch my head at how she could have thought that they were good people.  Her "best friend" in high school was a boy who was super needy, always the victim, and used my daughter for everything.  Yet, she would have died for him in a moment's notice.  He was homosexual as well, so this wasn't a romantic thing.

I think when a BPD has a favorite, they stay a favorite until either a new opportunity comes along or they get too in their own heads.  So I agree with you, the therapist must validate continually or risk being rejected.  And think about what that means for progress for someone that's not ready to grow and change- a simple five minute lesson might take months or years to fully get across in a "loving, supportive way" that the BPD can accept.

For my situation with my BPD daughter, my BPD ex-wife, etc, I realized that I can either love them as-is or I can move on entirely.  I want to be a part of my kids lives so I don't feel like I have any choice, I have to accept the circumstances with the ex and the adult kid.  So my expectations have changed and so has my approach.

For instance, I've learned to listen and not react or try to fix any problems.  I've learned that's a fool's errand and the conversations are much more productive if I validate feelings and lend support with a, "That's so tough, I'm here for you" type of vibe than a "Okay, here's what you need to do..."

If I try to fix, then it's my fault if it doesn't work, and it probably won't work anyway because they're only going to take the part of advice they like and ignore the rest.  But if I just say, "Here, I'm always on your side to help however I can," then I'm not directly involved and I don't get the fallout.  That's what let me flip from black to white in both of their minds.

Are there times they try to drag me into things anyway?  Sure.  But I keep it simple and honest.  "I love you and I'm here for you any time.  What do you need?"  That places it in their court to figure out what they need; I'm just the sounding board.

I strongly agree with this to NOT make a statement or announcement, but instead take the "slow fade" approach.

Communicating that you are "taking a break" or going NC is going to trigger their "feelings of abandonment" (which is at the root of BPD), which will result in a strong reaction that could have unexpected, and difficult outcomes and consequences that you could not possibly foresee in advance.

I've been on this board since 2018, and can't think of a time where anyone posted about this actually working. Of course maybe it's possible I have a selective memory?  If anyone has stories of this working it would be interesting to hear about them.  The stories I remember are about the reactions.

The slow fade is the approach I personally took, but I maintained measured and limited contact as I was able.  There were brief periods where I had to block her, but I never told her I was doing that. She would have gone nuclear, and I wasn't going to do that to myself.  I just simply couldn't answer or respond to what I couldn't see or hear.  To be fair, my husband supported me by taking over jobs that I used to do for my geriatric mom (buy her groceries, take her to appointments), so that helped to minimize the effect of my slow fade on her emotions.

Interestingly, when he took over, she simply turned her attention to him with her meaningless prattle.  One day she reported to him that she had her toenails done.  She used to send me that stuff, but it stopped when he took over the tasks I used to do. He almost sent a response that he had an itch on his butt, but I stopped him (don't engage).

That spoke volumes about her attachment (of mother) to me (daughter), or rather, lack of it, and was a HUGE eye opener.  A lot of puzzle pieces around her relationships fell into place after that.

But I digress.  I'm a big fan of "slow fade".  By announcing it, a huge target appears on your back, and possibly amplifies the drama.

Perhaps others disagree. There could be reasons to announce it.  But personally I am conflict adverse, and prefer to avoid being the target.

I think this is spot on, and probably the strategy some of the best therapists take. 

While the person my mom saw is a person of quality character and good standing, the fact that mom came away from that first and only visit dissing the counselor probably means she moved too quickly, didn't take the necessary time to build a relationship with mom, said something that mom didn't want to hear, and mom with her emotional paper thin skin had a big  explosive reaction, and that was the end of counselling for the rest of her life.  In the counselors defense, she couldn't have known mom was BPD.  But I'll bet she recognized and suspected it afterwards. 

This speaks to Pook's points.  Sessions between a pwBPD and the therapist are a bit of a dance.  The therapist has to be highly skilled to be the "lead" in a dance that could implode or combust at a single wrong step. 

So while we all have stories that may seem to us like the therapist is reinforcing skewed perspectives, maybe for the skilled ones there may be more going on.

Then again, I lived my life by my value of trying to be a good daughter.  I made my mother my matron of honour at our wedding, I included her on holidays with my family, I even included her on holidays with our friends (which led to her claiming them as HER friends  ), I nursed her after her early falls, and all the million little things I would do for her to be kind, or remembered or feel loved...  But as she aged and her "needs" (physical, social, emotional, cognitive) amplified, I was obligated to do more and more to PROVE my love.  I was in my late 50's before I accepted that nothing I could do would ever be enough, and I was "done" with having my kindness returned with negativity, blaming, accusations, toxic emotional abuse, and even hate. More to the point, if I couldn't meet one of mom's "needs" immediately when she needed it (like replacing a phone for her when I wasn't in the country), then she would say things like "you only think of yourself", and "you don't love me!"

So to take Pook's points one step further, if his theory is in fact the approach taken by T's working with BPD, then from the perspective of the BPD, the T may only be as good as the "last time they validated the BPD's perspective", and when the relationship goes south, it goes fast.

With my mom, it didn't matter all I had done the previous 55 years if her need of the moment wasn't met.  All that seemed "dry erased" (borrowing a phrase from NW), and the only thing that mattered was that I wasn't meeting her immediate need right NOW.  It took me YEARS to accept that, because it just seemed so unreasonable, and irrational.

Marsha Linehan, creator of DBT revealed she had BPD as a teenager.  So there it is.  Good things can happen.  But if we've landed on this board and in these conversations, our BPD person probably isn't a Marsha Linehan type.

Still, Pook's point brings a perspective that is worth being aware of.

The 1-Month Pattern: We started dating a month ago. It has been a constant cycle of intense push-pull. Her rejections (pushes) became increasingly extreme over time, but she always came back crying shortly after.
The Escalation: A few days ago, we got heavily drunk together. She kissed me first, and after a short time i accepted her. We went up to his apartment, we drank there, we kissed, she said she love me etc, but I didn't let her get close to me sexually. the next day she blamed me for everything, and texted that we must cut contact forever. She then blocked me on Instagram.
 After just two days of total silence from my end, she broke. At 4 AM last night, she showed up drunk/high at my doorstep.The Night/Morning Shifts: The moment she entered, she frantically grabbed my jewelry from the floor, put it all on, and hugged me with terrifying, sobbing intensity and cried. We hugged, kissed but still didnt let her do sexually stuff. The next morning she get cold, took off my jewelry and told me she had sex with an other guy before she comed here. we talked nearly every day on video call etc before the first drinking but after it she blocked and now she follow a lot of new guy etc and running or idk. I was always understanding and calm with her and accepted her back. but right now i dont know.

I dont wanna run away i love her, but i want to understand her behavior, i feel like she love me too deeply she want to run away as hard and fast as she can and punishes me for this.

Hi Annie,

I'm sorry about the complicated family situation and having to deal with a grave illness.  That creates a lot of sadness as well as stress.

From the sound of it, your sister and niece have been living together with their hoard for quite some time, do I have that right?  Though it's probably not the healthiest way to live, and you would never choose to live like that, they have.  What seems like chaos and squalor to you is "normal" to them.  In a strange way, having things strewn about everywhere might feel comforting to them.  They might have dreams about making collections, completing projects someday, pursiung hobbies, repurposing items, selling items for a profit--they find joy in cultivating these fantasies.  Maybe they're shopaholics, spending money for pleasure and self-soothing.  Maybe they promise to clean up, but they're lazy and don't want or particularly need to take care of their environment, so they don't.  Maybe they're depressed and are so overwhelmed by the prospect of cleaning up that they avoid it entirely.  And maybe they're ashamed, because they spent money to acquire all their stuff, and parting with any of it would represent a monetary and emotional loss.  Maybe they have sentimental attachments items (even if the items seem like trash to you), as they are reminders of happy times.  And maybe they just don't like to bend over, because a little effort and discomfort feels to them ten times worse than it really is.  What I'm trying to say is that cleaning up isn't just a physical challenge, it's a mental one as well.  You're probably not equipped to deal with all the emotional baggage attached to the hoard.  So my question to you is, why take it upon yourself to try to clean it up, especially when they'll fight you every step of the way?  I'd say, you need to pick your battles.  Cleaning up a hoard which probably took years to generate is a gigantic battle.  If you feel you must clean up, then try for a skirmish, maybe just one corner of the house (the tub, kitchen sink, your sister's bed)?

I think you did the right thing to stay in a hotel.  Your excuse could be that you don't want to impose, especially when your sister is ill.  That way, you don't have to make an issue of tip-toeing around a hoard.

I understand you want to help your sister when she's sick.  Maybe you ask her how she'd like you to help?  Maybe you just drive her to and from chemo/radiation visits, and stay with her in the hospital during them?

As for your niece, she's 43.  My guess is that she's living with her mom, not because your mom is ill and needs help, but because your niece isn't able to support herself independently, correct?   Though your niece might be moody, entitled and dissatisfied with her life, blaming the world for all her problems, her life is actually working for her right now.  My guess is that your niece barely works, spends a lot of time in her room in front of screens and might self-medicate with illicit substances.  You might worry about what will happen when her mom isn't around anymore to take care of her, do I have that right?  I guess my advice is, your niece is an adult, she's responsible for herself, not you, and not her mom.  The reason she hasn't gotten therapy yet is because her mom is over-functioning for her daughter and enabling her.  Since your niece is fine with her life the way it is now, she doesn't see the need to make any changes.  The only way she will decide to make changes is when she has absolutely no other choice.

My advice?  You don't try to clean up the hoard.  You don't try to convince your niece to get therapy.  You don't have a "serious talk" with your niece unless she asks you for your advice.  Trust me, if your niece is screaming at you when you're trying to help, she is not amenable to hearing anything you have to say.  When she's screaming, her emotions have taken over, and she can't think logically anyway.  All she sees is somebody trying to confiscate HER belongings, wreck HER home and boss HER around.   So don't.

In the meantime, you take care of yourself.  A sickness in the family is really stressful.  I went through that a couple of years ago, and I think the added stress, on top of living with someone with BPD, really got to me.  I suffered from physical ailments that I had never experienced before (chronic rashes, digestive issues, insomnia), and I think they were a physical manifestation of all the stress.  The physical discomfort and lack of sleep made me more irritable for sure.  In my experience, when life gets tough, that's when I double down on healthy habits:  eating right, drinking lots of water, getting regular exercise, and trying to get sleep, even if it's elusive.  The more people are needy and require my attention, the more I have to carve out time for self-care.  I would schedule time for self-care in my calendar and give it the same priority as caring for other people.

I'll wrap up with some reflections about the TV show Hoarders, which I watched a few years ago, maybe two or three episodes.  What I recall is that the show was formulaic.  It would start out interviewing caring family members, who have typically tried to help their horder clean up their home, but the hoard always returns, and has gotten worse.  The family members can barely conceal their disappointment that their work was wasted.  Nevertheless, they fear for the health and safety of their loved one with the hoard.  And yet, the only time the hoarder will accept professional help is when all other options have been exhausted.  The hoarder has to face some combination of eviction, dire health scares, total financial ruin and/or total estrangement from family, in order to make the decision to get help to clean up.  My takeaway is, I think an "intervention" doesn't work as much as exhaustion of all other options.  In other words, the hoarder has to hit bottom, and in the process decide that asking for help is the only remaining option.  Even so, when professional help arrives, the process of cleaning up is arduous and emotionally painful, for everyone involved!

I think the same sort of thing happens with BPD.  Your niece has to hit bottom, and she has to decide for herself to get professional help to turn her life around.  No amount of prodding or advising on your part will make any difference, until she's "ready" to make some changes.  Maybe her mom's illness might be a trigger.  It's impossible to know for sure.

All my best to you and your family.

Just let my ubpd sib know that I need some time and space.  Backlash of course and plenty of it but I'm doing okay.  I know temporary separations aren't always the best idea but this made sense for me now. If they do continue to contact me, I will block.

Hello and welcome to the family!  The dynamic sounds very stressful but at least they live several hours away and you don't have to deal with this daily.  Or are you planning on staying longer due to your sister's sickness?

Also, what would your "more serious talk" look like?  Talk that out a little bit so we can better understand your goals in that conversation.

With mental illness, your niece will only get help once she realizes that she needs it on her own.  Nobody can force her or convince her of anything, not even professionals.  She has to actually want to change and heal before signifigant progress can be made.

While it would be great to get your sister's house cleaned out and organized, it might not be possible.  And that's okay.  Do what you can, don't argue about any of it, and they'll decide what and how to maintain the home.

I'm so sorry about your sister as well, I will say a prayer for her now.

My sister let it slip that while hospitalized,  she'd been diagnosed with BPD. She later denied that she said it, but I have witnesses. Later, her 4th ex-husband and her middle daughter saw her medical records and said that was probably the mildest of what she was diagnosed with.  It's probably  why he got full custody of their then 8 year old daughter.  Now, that youngest daughter has access to the psychiatric records my sister somehow thought would help her get to live with that daughter.  No, it just made sure that my niece knows she's making the best decision to keep her mother at arm's length. 

Hi kind of Alone,

Who wouldnt begin to feel numb? I also began to feel numb after my udd,s endless dramas. I would literally just about get over one drama and be hopeful that udd had learnt from it and things had calmed down only to discover another with the expectation of me coming to the rescue everytime after previously being kept in the dark.
 
My lack of enthusiasm in rescuing her from all these dramas of course was interpreted by udd that I didnt care and that I had never cared and not that I was simply burnt out!!!

I think you did the right thing and that your udd is right where she needs to be right now and what you  have to consider now while you have some breathing space is how YOU move forward. YOUR health and wellbeing matters and it is time to focus on yourself.

You have helped your udd over and over again with no signs of change and as an adult it is time for her to take responsibility for her actions and learn from the consequences of her behaviour. Hopefully the reality of currently being where she is will a time of reflection for her and a turning point into the starting point for her to get her own life together.