Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

Hi Bpd_ Dad

I think that you are right to stand your ground over your wife. Im also glad that you recognise that your dd is using manipulation to try to control you.

I was finally cut off from my gc  5 years ago and replaced by her new partner the very same week they first met which I still have never met.

Unfortunately it may be the case that your dd will never accept your wife and you may never hear from her again. It may also be the case that she does come to you even in the short term but expect it to be for something she needs help with and not be to re-establish a r/s or compromise over your wife. This is all really about HER feelings and the feelings towards your wife and where the effects upon your gc and their feelings have no relevance are not taken into consideration.

Being estranged from gc is not easy especially when seeing them regularly and then nothing. For me it has been like a bereavement. The pain is still there, but the ache has lessened over the years. Take it one day at time. I still have my gc's toys in my home.  I know that they have now outgrown them but they hold so many memories and they are comforting to have around.


Wishing you all the best.

jsf

This triangulation was also common in my family of origin. For me, Karpman triangle dynamics helped to explain the behavior. BPD mother was in "victim" perspective. She seemed to perceive people as being "on her side" or "not her side". If she had conflict with one person- she'd then attempt to gain others to her side.

It's good that you see the potential harm in this kind of behavior. One reason there's conflict with your 20 year old D is that your D is an adult and likely less compliant with her aunt, or also has become the one your sister "projects" to.

You can't control what your sister does but your family- you need to maintain the close connections and boundaries on your sister's intrusion. The best "defense" is not about your sister, it's your family bonds.

For example, my BPD mother didn't like my father's sister and would say things about her sometimes. However, had a good relationship with my aunt. What was said didn't make a difference.

My BPD mother was able to create distance between family members and me when she was angry at me. For me, this felt devastating. The solution though is to maintain strong bonds with the people in your family.

Since your sister is interfering between you, your wife, and your D there needs to be some firm boundaries. For us, they included- if we visited, or spoke to BPD mother on the phone- it was in the presence of others. This boundary helped to protect my own children from triangulation. As adult children, they decided their own.

Each of you- your wife, your D and you, can decide to not participate in conversations where your sister is trianguating.

In that situation, I'd listen to your sister and thank her for the concerns.  Regardless if she's right or wrong, let her be heard and feel appreciated.  Then you can just dismiss it or whatever you want to do.

Meanwhile, I would speak to my daughter and let her know that your sister is struggling and a little distance would probably be best for everyone.  Explain that your sister gets overly emotional at times and takes small things personally.  If it's necessary, ask your daughter to apologize "for hurting her aunt's feelings." 

Not what was said, not all the other stuff, but a simple, "I'm so sorry if what I said hurt your feelings.  I would never want that or do anything like that intentionally"

This reminder that things change over time is so helpful.  It's one of the bizarre features of this condition.  It's crazy-making but it also a reason to act in accordance with your values and know that the weather will change.

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

It is possible that your wife has a different relationship with each child. The relationship is a combination of your wife and each daughter as individuals. Your daughters, at their ages, adult and almost adult, will navigate their own relationship with their mother. I think what they need from you most is to be secure that you love them, even if their relationship with her is challenging.

I think your younger D is clear about what she wants. She wants structure, routines, and a peaceful place to study with you, and still, a relationship with her mother.

My BPD mother liked to do fun things- like go to movies, museums, shows, go out to lunch. So one idea is for your D to have space with you, a place she can study, sleep, have regular meals, and some time to herself. She can then have some "fun" time with her mother together when she takes study breaks, and if she wants to stay over- that's her choice.

Hi Singapore, all great questions and I'm glad you got the laptop set up.  Please keep asking the tough stuff!


How do we convince anyone to do anything that they don't want to do?  That might sound discouraging, but if your wife is against therapy then it will be very hard to "convince" her of anything. 

A different tactic would be to talk about your own needs and ask your wife to problem solve.  Asking something like, "I feel unseen and neglected in this relationship and I can't keep doing this.  What can we do differently?"

When I told my ex wife that we needed therapy, she refused.  When I asked her what we could do a week later, she suggested therapy.  So I found a few therapists and she refused them all.  I asked her, which therapist would you like to see?  She said she'd think about it (which means it will never happen).  So I told our daughter, who my wife listens to, that there was a Christian therapist only a few miles from where my ex wife was staying.  Suggest that to your mom.  She did and it was suddenly a great idea.

My point here is that you can't fight this in conventional ways because we're talking about mental illness.  Your wife thinks differently and responds accordingly.


Again, you're thinking about this logically how you'd feel if a physician gave you a diagnosis.  So many here hoped for the exact same thing (myself included), if we get a diagnosis, then we can fix this and live happily ever after.  That probably won't be your wife's reality though and even when diagnosed, there's a chance she rejects or ignores it.  In other cases here on this site, the diagnosed person uses it as a sword..."You know I'm crazy and it's not my fault.  You should have known better to ask me that!"

All in all, the diagnosis doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's a starting point only.


My ex wife is nor officially diagnosed either (other than chronic depression), while my oldest daughter is (BPD/bi polar).  Their behavior is identical though.  And when I talk about my ex, I tell others that she's struggling mentally and thinks differently at times due to stress and anxiety.  People accept that whether they know about BPD or not.


When arguing with a BPD, it's so easy to think about facts and defend them.  But they're thinking emotionally, not logically, and their feelings control their emotions so much more than the average person.  Your wife is thinking, "Today is horrible and I'm struggling, why can't you see that?"  Yet she says, "You never do anything for me." 

Notice it's two completely different things, because she couldn't possibly admit what she was actually feeling.  So she deflects expecting sympathy, even though she just attacked you verbally.  You don't respond with sympathy because you're not a mind-reader, and now she's thinking, "The nerve of him to talk to me that way when he knows how bad I'm hurting inside."

Can you follow this at all?  It's so critically important for BPD relationships.

When your wife says something out of the ordinary, or when she's in "one of those moods", she's speaking emotionally from mental illness.  The way through these situations is not to justify, defend, or argue, it's to ignore her words completely and focus on her emotions.  If she's panicking, calm her down.  If she's sad, cheer her up.  If she's angry, help her relax with affirming words and body language.

This might sound familiar since you did it with your kids when they were infants.  It's basically the exact same thing since all you have to go on is the emotions present.  If the baby cries, you try to make it laugh.


There's nothing wrong with you.  You love your wife and you want things to work out, even though you don't fully understand what's happening or what to do.  We've all been there and did the exact same thing.

On this site, we talk about our BPD loved ones often.  But as you're here for a little while, you're going to realize that this site is more about you and your mental stability while dealing with a tough relationship.  Nobody here can "fix" your wife, but we can help you learn tools that makes communication a lot less painful.  Over time, it makes a tremendous difference as you learn to "speak her language"....which is about focusing on emotions instead of logic and reason.

I hope that helps my friend!

I'm excited to have set things up on a laptop so I can read and respond properly. 

Thank you all for your helpful comments.  I've never before had a chance to dig into any of these things with others and I have so many questions and ideas. Perhaps I can break things down a little and discuss a few discrete questions: external help, supporting and protecting the kids, navigating the divorce, and looking after myself better. 

External help

My wife has been pretty consistently averse to suggestions of getting outside help. Almost 25 years ago, I did get her to couples therapy leading up to the birth of our first child and that helped a little. But she ultimately gave it up and we ended up reengaging only when things got really dire at different junctures.  For two years I've pleaded to involve a family therapist or collaborative family lawyers and she always resists (with family therapists, we had a couple of sessions, which I thought were helpful but she thought a waste of money). I'd even welcome the involvement of her "best friend", although that could easily go sideways. I think my wife fears the loss of control involved with bringing someone in.  And worries that someone might actually diagnose her as having a personality disorder. I mentioned that one of her recent passion projects is religion and Iast night I floated the idea of involving a priest at one of the two churches she attends. She is showing some interest to do that, but I don't think that will last. 

Any suggestions on how to convince my wife to involve a third party?  I'm keeping fingers crossed that the priest idea will stick but I have little confidence. 

It bothers me that there is no diagnosis. Thinking that if there were a label, she might be motivated to get help. Worrying that maybe I am trying to pathologize behaviour that is not that bad after all. (After the horrendous 2018 blow-up with her sister, I insisted that we go to her psychiatrist to get help, but he simply commented: "Nothing abnormal here. Asian families are complicated.").  But I finally appreciate that none of this is normal, whether it is BPD, NPD, C-PTSD, or just some strange aspect of ASD.

 Supporting and protecting the kids

The two girls have different needs and different perspectives. The 17 year old is younger and "on site" with a heavy academic load, so has more immediate needs.  But she is probably finally the more resilient of the two. She loves her mother and is unlikely to try to minimise contact once her parents live separately. She will sometimes make excuses for her mum. She has expressed a preference for her mum to move to Thailand and for her to stay with me, but since her mum is now vowing to stay in town, I think our daughter will try to make a situation work where she cycles between households. But she has also said she needs routines that I can help maintain, and so I guess she may spend more time with me.

Her older sister is a bit more clear-eyed about her mum's behaviour and since a blow up at her boyfriend has maintained only limited contact, but she struggles with the loss of the mother she tried for so long to convince herself she had.

With both I feel like I ought to be sparing with both criticism of and excuses for their mum. They need to work out their relationship with their mum themselves. At the same time, I feel like our older daughter, solidly into adulthood, would benefit from support on psdfamily.com and I'm thinking that I could recommend it to her (emphasizing that her mum may not have BPD, even if some of the perspectives here may be helpful).

Thoughts on how to manage these dynamics, not either demonising their mum nor (any longer) normalising her behaviour, and give them the tools to live lives that don't involve mirroring either parent?

Navigating the divorce

I read with interest Pook075's description of his amicable divorce from his wife with BPD.  It was inspiring!  But finally it REALLY seems unlikely we will get there.  I am reflecting on what grace might look like for me.  Neither of us is materialistic but money has become a stand-in for other things. She is not even willing to table a proposal that would involve either divorce or a separation of finances on any terms now.  When I asked her for a proposal from her, she is insisting on maintaining financial integration until I retire in late 2028, when her behaviour has largely destroyed my earning power. And she has slow-rolled discussion of our daughter's living arrangements.

So it is feeling like we will end up in contested divorce proceedings -- one of only ten or so in a year in a country where most divorcing couples manage to work things out outside the court process.  My only hope is that she will finally delegate negotiations to a lawyer before I pull the trigger on a divorce application because the rules in Singapore, if applied strictly, won't benefit her. But I also worry that living arrangements even with a daughter as old as she now is won't be capable of being settled without the involvement of a court.  To some extent, my daughter can vote with her feet, but the emotional blackmail already at play is pretty intense. 

Looking after myself better

I guess pretty typically in a relationship with a PwBPD, our relationship is a co-dependent one. I feel like she "marked" me as someone who would look after her. When we met I was already well launched in my legal career (I became a partner at my law firm three years after we met) and I demonstrated a willingness to pick up the slack for her, minister when she was unwell, and help her navigate her relationships with others. (She has described me before as her seeing-eye dog, but then also describes me when dysregulated as manipulative and controlling, turning people against her).  I grew up in an alcoholic's household and as I've thought about our relationship have been forced to conclude that I must have gotten something (dysfunctional) out of looking after her and normalising the household dynamic. 

In my own therapy starting a decade or more ago, I explained to my therapist how I felt in our relationship via a distinct image.  My wife a truck careening down the highway, with the back not properly secured and stuff getting dumped all over the road as she goes, me a guy chasing behind the truck on foot, trying to clean up as much of the mess as I could as I went. 

A feature of my wife's behaviour I find very difficult to deal with is her swings between hatred and love (she, Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde, me suffering from emotional whiplash). I experienced that intensely this very weekend. At dinner Saturday night, I pleaded with her to work with me to find a middle ground where we could preserve strong relationships among the family and stop the financial bleeding, with her responses being embittered attacks. I was emotionally spent by the end of dinner and woke this morning feeling stress deep in my chest. She was singing, told me I had "gotten through to her", and sat with me over breakfast talking respectfully and kindly about the two girls. The break from the acrimony is welcome but I have the experience of 30 years to know this won't last.

Another that I also find hard to manage is the gas-lighting. She clings to falsehoods, with vehemence which seems to suggest that she does not seem them as false.  She will claim I did something that I did not do (or, for something I did do, assert a malicious intent that did not exist) and no amount of evidence or reasoning will allow her to adjust her perspective.  She insists I've tried to hide assets when I've only tied them up so we can both feel more confident that the other isn't doing that (and with the only person to even threaten to drain accounts being her.)   She was supposed to manage our investments as the stay-at-home spouse but didn't. When it was clear we were going to need to divorce, with her continuing to drag her feet on managing our finances, I put together an asset list so we could know what we have. I told her I would share it with her once she provided data on one investment I did not have. She said she would but months later still has not, but somehow it is me who is operating sneakily and "behind her back". All these are abstract, not concrete, issues but it is as if I'm standing in front of a tree. Anyone else can see, "yep, that's a tree", but she will deny the tree's existence. What IS that? 

I feel intense grief and guilt for allowing this to go on so long, often dragging friends and my family into spirals of dysregulation and not protecting the girls as I should.  What's wrong with me that I have let this happen? Notwendy, your post suggests there may have been physical abuse in your household growing up. Thankfully not in ours, but the emotional abuse has sometimes been acute.  Not as frequent or intense as in many families, but nonetheless there.

I was very stressed yesterday. Wasn't really able to process the series of heated discussions that had preceded the swing to Jekyll and worried that we could not with both parents in the house fulfil a promise to our daughter to keep a peaceful environment for her exam prep and I almost decided to move to a hotel nearby to reduce the chance of acrimony. But I'm still here for now.  But also trying to figure out how I can cope better, preserving the emotional energy needed to look after my daughter, keep things rolling at work, avoid a breakdown, and prepare for what could evolve into a nasty divorce.     

Hello and welcome to the family.  I'm so sorry you're going through this and I've experienced similar circumstances.

Your daughter suffers from mental illness and it's quite common for them to see things in black and white.  Your wife is always a bad influence while you're the exact opposite...neither of those things are true.  Unfortunately, you have to accept this for what it is and work around it in a way that your daughter can understand.  The tips and tool sections at the top of this page are particularly helpful in these types of situations to learn how to diffuse so much of this stuff.

How old are the grandkids?  If they're super young, then they won't remember this stuff anyway.  And if they're older, then they will have a sense that something is off.  Just let them know you love them, and let your daughter know that as well.  It might seem obvious but through a distorted lens, it could seem like a very different picture to your kid.  Say it often so she can't forget.

Again, I'm so sorry you're going through this.  I didn't see my grandkids for about 2 years, and although it was super hard, things have changed and I'm super thankful for it.  In my case, it just took some time for things to level out.