Thank you for your insights TellHill and PeteWitsend, there is lots of truth in what both of you have shared which is helping me.


Thank you for sharing this. Re: wanting people to change - TellHill, like you, I spent years asking, bargaining, harshly questioning and begging my mother to change or acknowledge what she'd done. It's hard to disengage and I'm glad you eventually succeeded.


Pete, re: being an immigrant - I am also an immigrant and live far from my family. As TellHill says, there's lots of reasons why people do this that aren't to do with being disordered. I've spent a long time away from my country of origin, not because I don't want to be there, but because tickets are expensive and there are decisions and sacrifices to be made.

That said, in this case, uBPDx chose to come to this country in a chaotic state, and in the aftermath of the dissolution of his previous relationship, as a result of his having an affair with a mutual friend of his then-partner. He also mentioned that despite having been continuously in relationships since his teenage years, he was not in touch with any of his previous partners - none had wanted to continue having a connection with him after the fact.

So PeteWitsend, your intuition was right - like your ex, he was running away from the results of his own actions.

The big question: are they unwell or manipulative? And in this (and many) cases, I think it's both. From what I've read, BPD ppl often make manipulative suicide threats, as was the case with uBPDx. But they also do commit suicide at very high rates. I think that's part of why this experience, and this disorder more broadly, is so crazy-making. It's an unstable mix of truth and untruth.

I'm trying to remind myself that we can never fully know someone else's mental state. We can only see their actions and how they affect us. Maybe the scorpion really is in a lot of psychological distress and doesn't want to sting the frog. But, we know from experience and observation that this is what it's going to do, so if we don't want to get stung, we have to remove ourselves from the situation.


TellHill, thank you for this good advice. I am going to do this. That said, I did speak to one person who said I shouldn't worry about anyone believing his untruths, as they can see he is unstable and his claims are not credible.

The question is, why do I still care? What is the 'hook'?

As you have picked up, I still do feel care, concern and identification with uBPDx. I want him to have integrity, not be manipulative and not be a liar. I want these things though reason tells me they are not going to occur.

Part of that reflects an attachment, not to the relationship itself (which I certainly don't want to resume!) but the story it represents, about myself as 'special' and genuinely loved, and as having the power to pursue a shared life based in integrity with another person. This sounds good, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is to an extent a narcissistic narrative. No one is so special they have the power to create integrity for another person.

Perhaps accepting uBPDx is a liar is easier than accepting that my concept of the life I was living, the relationship I had and even who I was or was capable of - is also, to a significant extent, a lie.

Hi Versant,

I know that the prospect of separation, moving and co-parenting can be confusing and stressful.  I'd just like to say that in my opinion, what's best for the kids is for you to be Happy, Stable, Reliable, Reasonable and Upbeat Dad, not Always Walking on Eggshells, Stressed-Out, Distraught and Constantly Fighting Dad.  Kids move all the time, sometimes across states, sometimes to other countries, and you know what?  They're OK if you're OK.  They adjust quickly when you adjust quickly.  If the change is good for you, it's good for them too, because they'll pick up on your positive energy eventually.  Most of all, if you provide them with a peaceful, nurturing home with a healthy routine and a Happy Dad, that will become their happy place too.  If you can make that happen, then I'd advise, go for as much parenting time as possible.  Your kids probably really need time away from a disordered parent, and they will relish their time with Happy Dad.

You worry about how your wife will react when she realizes you're serious about separating.  If she has untreated BPD, I think it's fair to say that she'll go ballistic.  She tends to act out when she doesn't get her way, correct?  The same goes for working out custody plans.  I think you have to assume she'll be furious and fight you hard.  Plan for the worst, but hope for not-so-bad.  You have to be ready, with resolve, and with documentation.  I think the general advice here is to document, document, document--any abusive, unhealthy or violent actions by your wife which could harm your children.

PeteWitsend, I consider pwBPD mentally ill or unwell. I don't like the segregation of personality disorders into another category, distinct from other extreme mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. I think BPD and schizophrenia are both persistent and do not go away.

It's interesting to note that my late dBPD mother was an immigrant, as was the rest of my family. I've got plenty of disordered relatives. There are other reasons for coming to a western, stable country other than finding new people who don't know your past relationships.

There's poverty and hunger. There are also countries with toxic governments and psychological torture. My family is not from East Germany but the goverment from their country did the same. Their secret police and the secret police from my parents homeland collaborated.

From Wikipedia: Zersetzung (pronounced [t͡sɛɐ̯ˈzɛt͡sʊŋ] ⓘ, German for "decomposition" and "disruption") is a psychological warfare technique first used by the Ministry for State Security (Stasi) to repress political opponents in East Germany during the 1970s and 1980s. Zersetzung served to combat alleged and actual dissidents through covert means, using secret methods of abusive control and psychological manipulation to prevent anti-government activities. Among the defining features of it was the widespread use of counterespionage methods as a means of repression.[3] People were commonly targeted on a pre-emptive and preventive basis, to limit or stop activities of political dissent and cultural incorrectness that they may have gone on to perform, and not on the basis of crimes they had actually committed. Zersetzung methods were designed to break down, undermine, and paralyze people behind "a facade of social normality"[4] in a form of "silent repression".[4]

I questioned my late dBPD mother harshly and my uBPD ex-husband too hoping to get a different answer too. It's human to do this.

Hard to imagine how you have a toddler... though remembering what I went through way back in my married years, not so hard to imagine.


Most family courts will ignore legally speculative concerns, so you will be limited to whatever documented incidents you have now or obtain later in the future.


This is hard to deal with.  The best you can do is to ensure you seek as much of your portion of the parenting time as possible.  BPD traits are known to be on the extreme end of Blaming and Blame Shifting.  In a separation/divorce you can seek prior approval of the court for the children to have access to long term counseling.  No, the other parent is not to seek a biased or gullible counselor to enable her "sour grapes" perceptions.


Most courts accept that (1) moves happen and children adjust and (2) divorces happen and children adjust.  That is no reason to limit your parenting or blame you.  Though your spouse can't perceive the concept in a balanced manner, the children should not be placed in the middle of the adult disagreement.   Children should not be handled as objects on a chess board.

Is there a less negative side to the end of a marriage?

Back in 2023, before you had your second child, your wife filled out divorce papers, so to some extent she's been aware of the divorce aspect for quite some time.

I will mention the custody and parenting aspects in my country.  Most states seem to separate the legal custody aspect of a divorce as a somewhat separate category from the co-parenting schedule.  Should you divorce, the "less bad" outcome would be for the reasonably normal parent to have as much authority during and after the divorce.  (Not that the disordered parent would agree, of course.)

For example, your oldest child will soon be in school, if not already in preschool or daycare.  The course of wisdom as the reasonably normal parent is to limit potential irrational chaos and obstruction in future years by seeking as much legal status and as possible from the very start of the legal process.  If you try to appease by relinquishing custodial Decision Making to your possible ex, then it will almost certainly be exceedingly difficult to fix it later.

Since your spouse may move multiple times during or after a separation/divorce - as mine did - that may impact your employment or your own future life decisions.  However, if you had some sort of "Residential Parent status for schooling" then your ex would be limited in how far away from you she could move with the children.  (Yes, some members here had ex-spouses who purposely moved far away in order to limit their parenting time and options.)

I don't see this book listed in our directory for our Books board.  Though the summary about this book does not mention ketamine and the author's credentials aren't listed, this short term ketamine therapy might be a good resource to consider to lead into DBT therapy, especially for those with suicidal ideation due to BPD or depression.  Perhaps you can work with our ambassadors or staff to compose a topic there and then the book might be added to our alphabetical book directory there?

https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/

My wife has been pushing for a move many hundred of kilometers away, because she has some support from her relatives there and has not managed to build / maintain a social life where we live now. Earlier it was us thinking about moving and discussing potential locations, then quite suddenly, it feels like, it was "I will move to where my relatives live no matter what you say, and the only alternative is divorce". No chance for any discussion.

In February I finally gathered my courage and told her that with options like that, I'd rather just divorce. Given how much we argue and in how unhealthy ways, it feels like the best choice considering our children (1 and 4) anyway.
I would not block the children from moving (since I recognize without me she really does need her relatives) which means I'll end up moving as well, I just don't won't to do it with her. 

She was shocked, and also tells me it was never meant as an ultimatum. She only meant she doesn't believe in long distance marraige, and was too scared by the prospect of me trying to stop her to manage a proper discussion. She then insisted on some heart-to-heart discussions ("since I always demand we should talk") and to be honest, actually listened for the first time in I don't know how long. Then she told me she got some ground breaking insights from what I told her, and that she now was able to see me in a more positive light, making it possible to work on some of our long standing issues.

I was more than a little skeptic, but somehow against my better knowledge ended up seeing where it would go. All the while the move in June creeping closer.
So she's been a lot nicer to me when things are fine. It feels really weird, actually being touched by her and so on.

However, it seems when things are not fine, things have not changed that much. End of April, start of May we had three weeks with about as many days with arguments as without. One of these arguments came from a parenting situation in which I repeatedly asked her to stop what she was doing, and she didn't even acknowledge I was talking to her, and I brought it up later and she showed no sign of understanding why I was bothered. The other we had in the morning in front of the children, it was nastyish, she even involved the older one (in a minor way only, but still a huge no-no), and that child went to daycare in tears. She told me the child had told her later it was about something unrelated, which I guess is possible... But yeah, all in all I don't think the situation has dramatically changed nor is it tolerable.

So I told her last week I think we better go back to moving to separate addresses. And she has gone back to convincing me it's a bad idea. She even tried to kiss me the other day, first time in four years I think.

I am trying to hang on to the main idea. I've made up my mind and I don't have to change it, no matter what anyone says or whatever happens.
I am really worried what happens when she realizes I will stick to my decision.
I am worried she's not stable and safe enough for the children.
I fear how hard is she going to make coparenting - she has expressed the idea that children moving between two homes is harmful to them, so she'll let that happen "over her dead body" only - concerning enough for the high-conflict outlook, even if not considering her threats of suicide and child murder from two, three years ago
I fear she needs to make sure the children know I am the bad guy and her life is ruined because of me
I worry I do a disservice to the children making them go through move, change of daycare and parents divorcing all at the same time
In fact, I worry I do them harm allowing the move in the first place

I am hopeful about Ketamine too.

Ketamine isn't used for only one condition.  It's also used for anesthesia. So if it helps pwBPD - it doesn't mean they don't have BPD.

Depression and BPD can co-exist but they can exist on their own and have differences too.

I think more research is needed to confirm this but it's being studied now. This is a recent article I found.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11070208/

Thank you both. I really appreciate the advice and input.

PeteWitsend, I've been using the "I would love for you to be there, but I also understand and support you if you'd rather not" type of response almost since our relationship began. Most of the time, he says he wants to go. Then he'll get anxious about an event for days (or even weeks) before. And then, afterward, he'll find something someone said or did (or didn't say) that he'll interpret as a sign they hate him.

We've had many, many conversations about my family. When he's sober and calm, he talks about it all rationally. He's admitted that he really wants my family to like him and he wants to feel like he's a part. But he doesn't feel it. He's an introvert and is, by his own admission, intimidated. My family are actually introverted as well, so they get it and they try to give him space while also speaking to him and being nice.

My T has suggested that when we're arguing and he says stuff that's unfair or untrue, just letting it go and saying something like "What do you want me to say?" I know defending doesn't help, so that's something I'll work on. Definitely goes against my nature, as my first instinct when hearing something unfair or untrue is to argue. But I know it doesn't help. Regardless, I'm just so tired of it being an issue and dreading it getting worse with my parents so close.

I don't mean to say you want him back, but you seem to still be carrying a flame for him in some way.  I'm inferring that because of the amount of attention you seem to have given him as a result of the interaction you had. 

And this next part:


If I understand you correctly, considering him "unwell" is a choice you're making. I don't know that I'd use that word to describe someone who's BPD.  It's a personality disorder.  This is who they are.  It's not like getting over the flu, and there's nothing you can do about that.  You can't help him see that he's wrong, and/or why it's not okay to lie to others like he does. 

I think that's why a lot of people leave these relationships still hung up on their feelings; it seems so wrong that people behave like this, and if we could just show them the error of their ways, then they could recognize and appreciate us, and become who we want them to be.  Or at least reaffirm our faith in humanity, that liars and frauds can't just move among us indefinitely without facing some accountability.  But they're not sick; their thinking may be disordered, and this may be due in some part to genetics and in some part possibly to childhood trauma, but they are adults who've learned to use their behavior to get what they want and manipulate others.  It's not as innocent as you seem to want to believe.

The Frog and the Scorpion parable is applicable here. 

Maybe you're just understandably frustrated he could continue to blatantly lie to you, but if you can see these things with your mom, and not with him, that made me think you're still holding out so hope you can "change him." 

You mentioned he left his original country.  In my case, BPDxw did too, for reasons that are pretty obvious in hindsight: she was escaping a country where everyone knew "her type," and could reinvent herself, and find new people who were - if not completely gullible - unacquainted with people like her she could take advantage of. 

I think it's telling you offered him an opportunity to visit his home country and he declined.  And again, his feelings as expressed to you are not genuine.  He was supposedly homesick, but really this was just something he could use to evoke some sympathy for him.  He wants to kill himself but never does.  He's a lonely immigrant, but won't go home.  You, hoping against all evidence he will admit he was at fault in the way the relationship ended, but this is "controlling him."