confronting lying

[inshock]

Is it a good idea to confront someone with Bp when he/she lies. For 6 years my sister lies and also exaggerates the truth to manipulate. Do you say "that's not true" or "I know you went to the Caribbean for thanksgiving instead of staying home". What she lies about isn't that important. It's the fact that she just can't simply be honest.

[rebl.brown]

Don't even bother trying to change a BPD person.  Do have boundaries for yourself and protect yourself but if you think confronting them will get them to see the light you'll be waiting a long time.

[clljhns]

inshock,

I agree with rebl.brown, don't waste your time. People with BPD can't deal with reality, so it is necessary for them to fabricate their own reality. My family all lies to some degree. My mom denies the abuse, rewrites scenarios, and twist my words to other family members. My oldest sister thinks that aliens abused us and presents a very different person in public than she is at home. She is very verbally abusive to her husband and I suspect to her son. My brother has been a chronic liar his entire life. I can remember in our childhood that he would spin the most incredible yarns and I would listen to him all the while wondering how he could make up such crap. His sons have repeated all kinds of stories to me that he told them ("It was so cold in our house that I would wake up with frost on my beard!" Really? He didn't have a beard when he lived at home. What makes him say these things, I don't know. He even posted that he had a catastrophic injury on a Naval boat which resulted in his brains being spilled out of his skull. He states that he survived this and obtained psychic abilities as a result. What?  He then created a FB page with a different last name, but then friend requested me. I asked him what the deal was and why would he lie about his name? His response was he did this for his business. ? His sons confronted him on several lies, and he still holds firm that these things happened. My other sister lies in the most clever of ways. She takes a grain of truth and grows it into a huge lie which always includes her as  the victim.

So, yea. It won't make a difference to your sister if you confront her on her lies. What I did when I was in contact with them, is make statements such as "Really. I didn't know that." or, "Wow! That must have been exciting/scary/terrible!", or I would just change the subject.  I just learned that the truth was not going to be a constant in our conversations and accepted this. Now I am NC with all of them, but my guess is that if I were to talk with any of them today, I would hear more of their creative realities.

As hard as it might be, it would be helpful to you to just let go. This is her problem, not yours.

Peace and blessings!

[KrazyKatSis]

Oh, this thread gave me my first laugh of the day! Waking up with frost on his beard! My dBPDs revises history all the time. Some of her whoppers are just as funny and as stupidly intricate as only the disordered can create. And you are all absolutely right, it makes no difference if you confront them or not. They won't believe you. So now, after 50+ years of listening to her ever-changing landscape of reality, I just laugh and say, "Whatever, crazypants!"

[inshock]

I like crazy pants. May I borrow that? Seriously though do they know when they exaggerate or lie and hope that everyone believes them? It seems my sister'/s lies are always about something where she will benefit rom the lie

[KrazyKatSis]

Enjoy the borrowing of crazypants, it's served me well, ha ha!

It's a funny question, do they know if they're lying. I don't think so. When my dBPDsis reinvents the past, she is certain that it happened the way she tells it. There's even been times when the whole family has been around and been able to remember a situation, but dBPDsis will be the lone person with a different memory.

Here's an interesting story from our youth. One day, my mom had some chocolate candy in the house. We were told not to eat it but one of us kids stole it and wolfed it down. My mom lined us up and said, "Okay, now who ate the candy? Better to be honest & tell me than lie about it." Everyone denied taking the chocolate, even dBPDsis--

EVEN THOUGH HER FACE AND MOUTH WERE SMEARED WITH CHOCOLATE!

She had taken it, and eaten it, and she continued to lie about it, even when caught in the lie. It was like she made herself believe that she hadn't done it, even with the evidence there.

Do you know what I mean? Have you ever experienced something like that?

[inshock]

Yes my sister will lie in the face of hard facts. In fact she's not a very good liar because the lies are easy to prove wrong. People lie for 2 reasons- to get what they want and to avoid consequences. I think bps know but I think they convince themselves

[AnnieSurvivor]

My uBPD mom can be funny in what she will try to prove is true.  The best happens every Christmas.  About 10 years ago my uncle on my dad's side had cancer, but is doing fine today.  (she and my dad have been divorced 30+ years and never sees anyone on that side).  Every year for the last several she thinks to bring this up and says "I guess it won't be a very merry Christmas on your dad's side since your Uncle G. is dead."  I then internally sigh and say "he's not dead."    Mom:  Are you SURE?  I swear he's dead.  Me:  No, he really is alive.

Then you can see her screwing up her face real tight trying to process this because she is so Very Very very sure he is dead, but at some point even she gives up trying to convince me of this fact and just changes the subject (can't admit she's not right).  Crazy!

[Deb]

Here's an interesting story from our youth. One day, my mom had some chocolate candy in the house. We were told not to eat it but one of us kids stole it and wolfed it down. My mom lined us up and said, "Okay, now who ate the candy? Better to be honest & tell me than lie about it." Everyone denied taking the chocolate, even dBPDsis--

EVEN THOUGH HER FACE AND MOUTH WERE SMEARED WITH CHOCOLATE!

She had taken it, and eaten it, and she continued to lie about it, even when caught in the lie. It was like she made herself believe that she hadn't done it, even with the evidence there.

This reminds me of what a friend told me about her dBPD son when he was young, around 7 or so. They told him to stop touching the tv andm with his hand on the tv, he replied "I'm not touching it!" And got downright indignant that they said he did!

[Cassy]

WOW, this reminds me of a FB thread a year or so ago. My mother posted something really hurtful and nasty directed at family members and I called her on it. Then my aunt said something to her. She went bonkers and actually wrote, "I have NEVER SAID SUCH A THING. YOU ARE SICK IN THE HEAD. YOU ARE A LIAR. I WOULD NEVER SAY SUCH A THING." It took as a good half hour to convince her to read her own post right above ours where she said exactly what we claimed she said, we were quoting her. LOL Anyway, she  freaked out about how unfair it is to judge her that way because of what she said on FB because she doesn't know what she says on FB.

Yeah, save your breath.

[Louise7777]

Rewriting history, saying lies for their own benefit, etc.

Id say let it go, unless you want her to go into a rage (at least thats what my uBPD does) and create chaos for months, cause you dared to confront her.

[P.F.Change]

Seriously though do they know when they exaggerate or lie and hope that everyone believes them?

Who can say what someone else does or doesn't know? I don't think it's possible to generalize too much with this, as each person may have different levels of intent and awareness for each incident.

What I think has been observed consistently is that for people with BPD, feelings equal facts. Which is to say, whatever the person is feeling affects the way he interprets and remembers what is happening. So for instance, if someone with BPD feels insecure because her husband is 10 minutes late from work, she may decide he is having an affair, because that is a fact that matches what she is feeling. It won't matter if he claims to have been stuck in traffic or shows her the evening news with the traffic report or physically takes her out to the highway to show her how far the cars are still backed up--the actual facts don't change the way she feels, and therefore she won't be inclined to accept them.

Sometimes people with BPD also dissociate when they are exceptionally worked up emotionally. There are some circumstances under which they truly do not remember doing or saying certain things if they were feeling overwhelmed at the time. For instance, my mother still thinks I am making up false stories about one of her rages. I really don't think she is intentionally distorting the truth--I think she really doesn't remember it.

Conversely, some people, such as those with Antisocial traits, might take great pleasure in lying to others or causing them pain. Many people with and without personality disorders knowlingly lie to maintain a certain facade. It may not be possible to determine whether your sister lies to you on purpose or not, but if she has BPD there may be other reasons why her version of reality does not match everyone else's.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[MyLifeNow]

Only once have I ever gotten my dad to accept the reality of a situation. It took an exceptionally long argument with an exhaustive use of rigorous logic to paint him into a corner where he couldn't deny it anymore. Then the next day it was as if the whole conversation never happened. Complete waste of time.

To give an idea of how far they can go, the last time I visited I planned to come home early in the morning because I had to drive west for 5 hours and wanted to avoid having the sun in my eyes the whole way. When the time came for me to pack up it started one of the biggest fights we've ever had, with him insisting that the sun rises in the west meaning that I should stay for a few more hours. At that point logic was completely out the window.

[livednlearned]

What I think has been observed consistently is that for people with BPD, feelings equal facts. Which is to say, whatever the person is feeling affects the way he interprets and remembers what is happening.

When I first learned this here, it changed everything for me. The lying and distorting of truth can be so exhausting, and trying to untangle it all to make sense of everything was a lot of work. I hated being caught up in it, and it never felt like there was a good option for dealing with, so I felt stuck. Confronting it just made things escalate, and letting it go made me feel conflicted too. Then I started to realize it was a feelings = fact thing, so I began focusing on what feeling might be generating the lie. I don't know why that made things easier to deal with. Maybe because it made more sense to just focus on what the feelings were, because those are real? Whereas confronting the lie means staying engaged in the distortion?

So the example of your sister saying she went on a vacation during Thanksgiving when in fact she stayed home. When this kind of thing happens in my life, I've started to think of it as a puzzle to solve rather than a lie to confront (or not). Maybe she felt shame and loneliness that she was alone during a holiday where family usually come together. Or maybe she can't come together with family because she dysregulates, so she invented a story that relieved the shame and loneliness she felt. Doesn't matter to BPD sufferers if it's true, just telling the story releases pressure around unmanageable feelings.

My dad is a champion at this, but it's more like revisionist history. He can't tell the truth because he can't manage the shameful feelings associated with the truth. It's been pretty invalidating when I happen to be part of whatever lie he's telling.

[BreatheDeep]

In general I would advise against confronting a borderline or narcissist at all about anything. Just my experience, it isn't worth it.

Like a previous poster said... . just respond with a neutral response and change the subject.

They will not learn from the confrontation and will not change. So why not just take the easy road and let them be. That's my 2 cents worth.

Oh course we non BPDs value truth and want these BPDs to know that we know that they are lying and want them to stop it. It's understandable and normal and healthy, but it ain't gonna happen.

[Ziggiddy]

Well said, BreatheDeep.

 

In general I would advise against confronting a borderline or narcissist at all about anything. Just my

They will not learn from the confrontation and will not change. So why not just take the easy road and let them be.

Yesterday I had my first confrontation with BPDm since finding out (awakening) It was unpleasant, fuitless and ultimately futile. I didn't expect much but even my lowest expectation was not met. Evasion, misdirection and outright lying coupled with blaming ME for her own bad behaviour all led to a sense of pointlessness. I wished I had read this beforehand as I might have handled it differently. Now I have lost what little interest I had in sorting out the matter. Oh well. C'est la vie and all that

Z

[Coral]

PF Chang  "... . feelings equal facts."    Give me a sec to get my jaw off the table.   Such absolute, pure truth.   My BPD sib will lie with dramatic changes six or seven times about the same incident.  The rest of us just look on in wonderment.  Your phrase clears up soo much. Thank you.

[BabeRuthless]

Laughing reading this thread! I also want to borrow "Crazypants." So much helpful insight here.

Occasionally my uBPD mother lies, but most of the time she sees and presents an alternate, rose-colored-glasses version of something she finds intolerably painful or threatening or unpleasant. She was left by her own mother with a sexually abusive grandfather and a depressed, enabling grandmother. Even now, she continues to speak of her grandparents with love and affection, and even asks if I will write the story of how they met, of their big romance... . the quintessential silk purse out of a sow's ear. The look on her now-wrinkling face is like a five-year-old and makes me feel sad and helpless. There is no reasoning with her. Am trying to arrive at some acceptance of this.    

[Sunnys Blues]

Is it a good idea to confront someone with Bp when he/she lies. For 6 years my sister lies and also exaggerates the truth to manipulate. Do you say "that's not true" or "I know you went to the Caribbean for thanksgiving instead of staying home". What she lies about isn't that important. It's the fact that she just can't simply be honest.

I've had my uBPD mother listen to vm's she's left me. She will lie, exaggerate, or simply say mean things. She'll start off the voice message with, "It's me, mom."

So, we've established it's HER, yet she will swear up and down "that's not ME saying that, you've doctored the message."

Allrighty. I'd say, don't even waste your time, even if you have enough evidence to convict beyond a shadow of a doubt. BPD people don't understand concepts such as "honesty" or "truth" or "fairness." They seem to only understand whatever it is they feel they need to lie about, at that time.

I don't even bother to let my mother listen to her messages anymore. When her friends call me to tell me what a horrible daughter I am, I let them listen. They seem to appreciate the "factual history."

[Sandcastle]

Mother once left a message for my therapist in an attempt to find out how to talk to me. After he told me in a session, I called her and confronted her. She said she found his business card lying on the counter. Not true; I'd had it in a kitchen drawer, which meant she dug through my stuff. Of course, it wasn't her fault, it was mine because she didn't know how to talk to me. Arrgh.

And, like BabeRuthless said, any painful memories turned rose-colored.

[PleaseValidate]

These are great stories to raise my spirits! Especially about the chocolate! (Hee-hee!)

The one I use re my BPDmo vs reality is this:

Last yr we had lunch and she took out reading glasses for the menu. (We have always both been nearsighted and both wear contacts.)

Me: When did u start wearing reading glasses?

Her: I don't wear them, i only use them sometimes to read small print.

Me: When did you start needing glasses for small print?

Her: I DON'T need glasses, I just use them once in a while.

Me: