The Lonely Child and the Abandoned Child (BPD). Can this be saved?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Just read THE most FASCINATING post I have ever read on this site. (if anywhere).

It showcases the idealizaiton phase to the world on down the road... .

It HAUNTINGLY describes how the Schema of the lonely child connects with that of the abandoned child.

My question is... .the article/post describes the horror of the devaluation and the seemingly foregone conclusive demise of the relationship.

Question - has anyone heard of a method or success at preventing that demise and actually connecting again the Lonely and Abandoned adults... .?

[nightmoves]

Just read THE most FASCINATING post I have ever read on this site. (if anywhere).

It showcases the idealizaiton phase to the world on down the road... .

It HAUNTINGLY describes how the Schema of the lonely child connects with that of the abandoned child.

My question is... .the article/post describes the horror of the devaluation and the seemingly foregone conclusive demise of the relationship.

Question - has anyone heard of a method or success at preventing that demise and actually connecting again the Lonely and Abandoned adults... .?

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[ziniztar]

Hi

Question - has anyone heard of a method or success at preventing that demise and actually connecting again the Lonely and Abandoned adults... .?

 hi nightmoves

From what I understand it's part of the Schema Therapy my dBPDbf is getting. He is trying to understand when these modi (or the other ones - angry and happy children, punitive parent and irresponsible soothing parent) come up. Meanwhile they are reparenting the healthy adult, to connect with these children/grown-ups and how to talk to them. This is the inner voice in our heads that we all have but has not developed maturely in pwBPD.

My own T who has also treated pwBPD explained that he sees BPD as a meeting with several people talking to each other with no structure and with a lot of chaos. I guess putting a happy, angry, abandoned, hurt child in a room with a punitive parent and a parent that is too soft, and letting that group decide (without elderly veto) where the next children's party is going to be... .is resembling the mind of a pwBPD.

In therapy they are building the strength of the president of the meeting - the healthy grown-up.

Understanding this has even helped me to talk a little nicer to my own abandoned child  .

[123Phoebe]

Question - has anyone heard of a method or success at preventing that demise and actually connecting again the Lonely and Abandoned adults... .?

I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's answers!  Thanks for yours, ziniztar

This might be a very simplistic view, but when I think of lonely and abandoned, I think of those things as being triggers.

No doubt I was the lonely child; this view is coming from that standpoint.  So, feeling lonely (in a relationship) is a trigger for me and therefore I am triggered into looking to not feel lonely through my relationship.

Same with the abandoned child; the abandoned child finds extreme ways to not feel abandoned.

On the flip side, the lonely child might feel engulfed by someone trying too hard to make them feel a part of something, while the abandoned child will feel engulfed by someone reassuring them they'll always be there for them, putting up with all kinds of yucky behavior to prove that point, as the lonely child is triggered to not feel lonely.

So, if the lonely child can find ways to manage their loneliness through means other than the relationship (while staying in the relationship), they can temper some of this enmeshment.

The abandoned child will undoubtedly feel triggered, which is when extinction bursts and other behaviors come into play.

The lonely child, me, searching for understanding gets this, as I have "empathy" for the engulfed feeling and HATE it!

We have something pretty major in common!  

Now I'm open to learning all kinds of ways to find other common ground, to understand ourselves better.  We aren't enemies, we're comrades

While I find 2010's post extremely insightful, it leans towards ending the relationship as the only way to find this deep understanding.  I have a real problem with absolutes as I'm understanding-based and don't think I'll ever understand things completely; the second I think I do, it's shutting myself off from new knowledge, which I hope to always be open to... .

I'm just as stubborn and willful as my partner; something else we have in common, yay

[ziniztar]

Thanks for yours Phoebs 

On the flip side, the lonely child might feel engulfed by someone trying too hard to make them feel a part of something, while the abandoned child will feel engulfed by someone reassuring them they'll always be there for them, putting up with all kinds of yucky behavior to prove that point, as the lonely child is triggered to not feel lonely.

I was intrigued by this as I am indeed suffocated by people over-assuring me they will always be there, especially when I've dealt with people leaving me. It is invalidating because it does not match my inner feelings. Is that what you mean? Could you break this down a little bit more?

[nightmoves]

First - thank for joining me in this intriguing dilemma/question.

Second - considering that it appears it is a Flintstones only thread and in honor of that - I have added for the first time - an avatar as well.

So - hello Betty. Hello Wilma... .:-)

Phoebe - I can SO relate to your post. The statement on the Extinction Bursts i find fascinating. I had posted a thread about Extinction Bursts a while ago - and actually found not that  may had even understood or heard about them.

Your statement "the abandoned child finds extreme ways to not feel abandoned"... .fascinating. A LOT makes sense when seen through that lens. It IS a lng time sense (or frustration) I have had that it seems that SO many times... .when we are "closer"... .and the natural thing is to do "X"... .she does "Y"... .

Almost as though she NEEDS to test the situation EVEN MORE.

We went to to a couples counselor once (the visit was really surreal for me as it seemed that my W went to places that I had never even seen ... .angrily at that... .but... .) and he got her to almost without her knowledge - begin to probe her "inner child".

He then asked what she would MOST hope that our relationship looked like... .she answered ... .and I was SHOCKED... .as it was what I had been trying, begging, pleading it to be for years... .(mostly connected... .close... .fun... .happy ... intimate)

And then he asked her... ."so you trust that HE (me) will provide that to you"? She said ... .no... (?... .ouch... .?) Then he asked " do you trust that ANYONE will provide that to you/"... .she then said ... .NO.

Eerie... .really stunning stuff. At the time... .did not even understand that AT ALL. (then... .was pointed toward BPD... .and answers to the many mysteries and riddles ALL began to unfold)

Your line "So, feeling lonely (in a relationship) is a trigger for me and therefore I am triggered into looking to not feel lonely through my relationship.

DING DING DING... .that is me.

AND then you wrote ... ."On the flip side, the lonely child might feel engulfed by someone trying too hard to make them feel a part of something, while the abandoned child will feel engulfed by someone reassuring them they'll always be there for them, putting up with all kinds of yucky behavior to prove that point, as the lonely child is triggered to not feel lonely.

DING DING DING... .ditto... .

Resulting in... .

"The abandoned child will undoubtedly feel triggered, which is when extinction bursts and other behaviors come into play."

oh man... .Yea... .yes... .uh huh... .

And the possible solution to end the bursts and rage... .etc... .

"So, if the lonely child can find ways to manage their loneliness through means other than the relationship (while staying in the relationship), they can temper some of this enmeshment."

SO - aren't we then left a little with a dilemma as well?

WE want... .YEARN... .for the NON lonely with that someone. Close. Intimate. Touch. Caring. Affection.

I have ALREADY ... .as a child... .HAD to do this. HAD to go elsewhere... .to manage my loneliness. Could NOT gain teh Closeness. Intimacy. Security. Affection - by those CLOSE to me. By those I LOVED.

So - now ... .many years later... .the irony is that I now not only am BACK to square one. But I now (kids, family, etc... ) NEED to accept that this is where I am AGAIN?

Let me also say ... .I believe you ARE RIGHT.

So - where does that leave you and I... .really?

You wrote... .

"We aren't enemies, we're comrades

I say that to mu wife ... .many times. I FEEL it ... .way more.

It has been SO confusing to me.

So I TOO have an incrediby larege need for understanding. I always have. Maybe - it was because SO MUCH did not compute for me from day one. SO much that I was faced with was confusion. Chaos. Frightening.

Certainly - the biggest riddle was feeling SO lonely. Alone.

Now... .I have become incredibly confident in my abilities. Quite successful in my life. Very capable. String. Resilient.

I am also SO wanting and yearning a close- intimate - relationship with someone.

MAYBE - that is why I was SO (and have been) much set up for a person with BPD. ALL my positive facets were (I think) SO attractive to my w at first. I DID bring her ALL the things she was hoping for. But... .as the marriage matured... .I wanted the intimacy and closeness to also mature and get deeper.

When the idealization and the infatuation and the hunt stopped... .this all actually scared her.(?)

I read something ... .that BPD's are HIGHLY adept at mirroring exactly the right thing during the beginning - but then - there is a shift - and you are begun to be painted black. (in thier black and white world).

It really is not ANYTHING that YOU have done... .it is the normal progression.

The post/article from 2010... .described this INCREDIBLY well. The depressing part of it ... .is that she seemed to see it as a fate acompli.

That the crash - was predetermined from the very start. (how depressing) That act 2-3-4-5... .was already written.

Well - here is the problem for me.

I still very much love this woman. I love and cherish my family and many children. I STILL want us to be close.

So - how?

She SAYS she wants me to still be her husband. Is committed to the marriage. BUT - her actions - seem SO in contradiction to that.

Maybe this schema riddle shows why.

But again... .WHAT is the answer?

IN my PERFECT world... .we BOTH have a light bulb moment ... .and we work at this/us. We overcome this together... .and it may be that is the ONLY way we can.

There are many therapies out there which state that you have chosen your mate/spouse ... .for some VERY core reasons. Much of the choosing is your inner child. AND... .it usually goes quite badly. BUT the hook is... .that choice innately was not necessarily a "wrong" one. That those two flawed individuals ... .NOW have the capacity to actually bring each other ALL they have yearned for.

Put another way... .the "cure"... .is necessary. That might only be able to occur by "working" at THIS relationship.

I suppose - that 2010 - may have been alluding that leaving a relationship like this is the only solution. But then realized the post/thread was in the section of those who already DID that... .and were trying to cope, understand, heal,and move on.

So the question remain. CAN these two schemas actually find closeness, intimacy, mature love, security, peace and happiness together?

WIHTOUT... .succumbing to what they had as a child... .

[ziniztar]

Second - considering that it appears it is a Flintstones only thread and in honor of that - I have added for the first time - an avatar as well.

So - hello Betty. Hello Wilma... .:-)

Hey there Barney! 

I suppose - that 2010 - may have been alluding that leaving a relationship like this is the only solution. But then realized the post/thread was in the section of those who already DID that... .and were trying to cope, understand, heal,and move on.

What I understand from 'extreme adapting', often a vivid part of enmeshment, is that people acting like this always think they have two options. Adapting to the other, or leaving. This is flawed thinking as the very idea of having to adapt and be so incredibly enmeshed in order to not be abandoned and lonely is wrong.

I think if a pwBPD is in therapy and taking it seriously, some changes in their partner are necessary. Or else, at some point in therapy they will recognize the unhealthy behaviour and need to eliminate the partner prohibiting further improvement. It does however require some serious changes in the enmeshed person as well. As long as the work in both persons is done at the same time (individually), and there is mutual trust somewhere that the other will do whatever they can to make this work, it could work.

I know I'm changing things that need to be done. For me, me, me, me, me, for my own happiness, then for us, and it would probably benefit dBPDbf too. I know that I don't want to continue this way, so I had to change. I know he is trying. Is he going to feel comfortable with my new behaviour? Probably not. Am I going to easily deal with his responses to my new behaviour? Nu-uh. That's why I think you need to talk. Sometimes the other one is progressing more, or someone has a set back. That needs to be discussed, as any type of change will probably invoke a lot of other fears as well. Communication, determination, motivation... and some trust and love could do the trick. But it's definitely not a given the relationship will last. And that's ok.

Nightmoves, I could see your story is different from mine as you have kids involved. It's up to you to decide what you want...  

[123Phoebe]

Yay for the Flintstone's theme

But again... .WHAT is the answer?

IN my PERFECT world... .we BOTH have a light bulb moment ... .and we work at this/us. We overcome this together... .and it may be that is the ONLY way we can.

I had to turn the light off on that dream   Telling him that we need to work on this, didn't work.  It's coming from a negative angle to begin with.  Since I'm choosing to stay, it's up to me to work on me.  Since I realize I have issues of my own, it's up to me to sort through those issues, my issues, the issues I have with him, where they all began etc... .

I am an adult, not a child trying to survive in a dysfunctional environment.  I had hoisted him up onto a make-believe pedestal (a throne!), and while up there?  I was unconsciously expecting him to behave the way my mom, dad, sister and ex-h didn't!  He failed miserably in that role I had him playing.  I would emotionally compare him to these people, unbeknownst to either one of us.  I didn't even really understand it, but was expecting him to mind-read.  Kooky stuff.

I'm not blaming myself for everything here, I'm aware of the dysfunction I contribute to our relationship.  And that is the only thing I have the power to change.  It is not easy changing myself, eliminated dysfunctional responses, trying new approaches... .  Why in the world would I think it would be any different for him?  And who am I to tell him he needs to change and have a moment in order for 'us' to work?

I made a conscious decision to stay with him, to face my fears head on, to respect him while I do.  In doing so, I committed to not being his therapist, to not having an ulterior motive behind my actions.  I do not wish to change him, my desire is to change myself, to grow... .  And you know what?  Miraculously, we're growing together!

Our relationship is stronger and better than ever!  We share closeness, intimacy, mature love, security, peace and happiness together... .  We also share frustration, irritation, sadness, pissedoffedness etc... .  We share the entire gamut of the human experience and I am so thrilled to be experiencing it all with him

So, to answer your question: CAN these two schemas actually find closeness, intimacy, mature love, security, peace and happiness together?

WITHOUT... .succumbing to what they had as a child... .

Yes

The main difference being, we didn't have a choice as children, as adults we certainly do!

[123Phoebe]

On the flip side, the lonely child might feel engulfed by someone trying too hard to make them feel a part of something, while the abandoned child will feel engulfed by someone reassuring them they'll always be there for them, putting up with all kinds of yucky behavior to prove that point, as the lonely child is triggered to not feel lonely.

I was intrigued by this as I am indeed suffocated by people over-assuring me they will always be there, especially when I've dealt with people leaving me. It is invalidating because it does not match my inner feelings. Is that what you mean? Could you break this down a little bit more?

I'm going to start out using my mom as an example here, as she was abandoned by her own living mother at 4 years old.

Because I knew she was abandoned, I tried with every inch of my being to not let her feel abandoned by me.  So much so, that I took her issue upon myself, I wasn't going to abandon her no matter what.  She could treat me like total dirt and the fact that she was abandoned became more important to me than anything else. 

My dad would try to connect with her, talk to her about her abandonment issues, "You were abandoned by your mother... .", I remember hearing him say that to her... .

"This has NOTHING to do with my mother!  Leave my mother out of this!", she'd argue.  "She might've been a b___, but she was MY mother.  I can say what I want to about her, but YOU can't!"

She shut that sh!t down.  I would imagine she felt pretty darn suffocated. 

That then became my 'truth'.  Nobody better ever say anything about my mother, EITHER!  Including myself.  She had it so much harder than me!  I would feel engulfed/paralyzed when anything dared come into consciousness about my mom being anything other than a victim.  I would shut it down.

A pretty lonely place to be, denying myself of my own true experience, not being allowed to express my innermost thoughts and feelings.  In doing so?  There would be that wrath to contend with... .

A rescuer was born!

I don't know if that answers your question or if you can relate to it.  I think my mom feels engulfed when faced with uncertain truths.  She hasn't worked through her abandonment issues.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for yours Phoebs 

On the flip side, the lonely child might feel engulfed by someone trying too hard to make them feel a part of something, while the abandoned child will feel engulfed by someone reassuring them they'll always be there for them, putting up with all kinds of yucky behavior to prove that point, as the lonely child is triggered to not feel lonely.

I was intrigued by this as I am indeed suffocated by people over-assuring me they will always be there, especially when I've dealt with people leaving me. It is invalidating because it does not match my inner feelings. Is that what you mean? Could you break this down a little bit more?

I was thinking that I feel suffocated when people say that they will always be there. It is illogical and unrealistic. It goes against my perception of reality, which is that people change and so do circumstances. I cannot always be there for other people because I have responsibilities that may come before helping others.

One of the problems that I have had with my husband is that it seems that he defaults to abandoned child mode when I am trying to take care of business. I cannot realistically always be there for him. Sometimes, I need to take care of myself or the kids first.