What to do about holiday parenting time?

[Swiggle]

A couple of thoughts... .

First, a rule of thumb around here is "Three sentences or less.", and that seems to work best.  Keep it as focused as possible - one narrow topic.  Otherwise it gets complicated.  My ex is very intelligent, but when she gets stressed she acts like she's not very smart - she doesn't follow a complicated discussion.  So if I keep it super-simple and focused I have the best chance to get to closure.

And this is what we need - closure - even if it's on a narrow topic like "Mom's birthday and Dad's birthday".  If you try to solve all the related issues - kids' birthdays, winter break, etc. - it's more likely you won't get anything resolved.

Second, I think it's worth considering whether your message is, "The law and our agreement say X, so it's X.";  or whether your message is, "Here is a win/win solution for Mom's and Dad's birthdays."  That is, are you solving the problem to meet everyone's needs, or are you basing everything on the law and the "contract" between the parents.

Both of these are valid ways to go.  I find the "Win/win" approach to work best with my ex.  If things break down completely - and that has happened once since we were divorced - then I'm more than willing to go the hardcore legal route.  I just haven't needed to, except that once - the "Win/win" approach usually works well.

We did the win/win approach it doesn't work but that is what we want. We don't have to follow the agreement to the tee, in fact that isn't usually a win for any of us. She wants her birthday and wants to follow the "rules" to get it but she doesn't want to follwo the same rules about teh other things that are hanging out there. How do you word it in a win/win way when she isn't willing to work with it at all. I mean she out and out said I will not change my plans over the winter break even if the local rule says it is a certain way. She wants to follow it for her bday (whchi we want to do becasue it is the right thing) but doesn't want to follow the rule for the other things.


local rule spells out all things not listed in teh agreement.

we want to work in a win/win way

she only wants to follow the rule as it benefits her

she does not want to, nor thinks she has to give up HER time during winter break.

we already asked her to work with us twice on the winter break issue, she is digging in but wants her birthday and for us to follow the rules for that. but not the other stuff.

Maybe we say to her since we can't find a solution together on these issues we will follwo local rule for items such as bday, mother's day/father's day, kid's birthdays, winter break and spring break?

[ForeverDad]

Asking won't work.  You tried and failed.  Don't try again, your reasonableness and repeated attempts signals her that your boundaries are weak and to be challenged, for her to be stubborn and feel she has control.  Repeat, your reasonableness and attempts to find a middle ground are perceived by her as weakness inviting boundary pushing.  Probably in the past she was uncooperative and got concessions and so she believes she can keep doing it, getting rewarded for bad behavior.

How about a "Take it or leave it" approach?  She can have her birthday but if she does that it signifies her accepting the other terms about H's birthday, H's requested time with Winter Break holiday and each parent getting the respective time on the entire Mother's Day or Father's Day period as listed by the Rules.  State that if she accepts the one, she accepts them all.  If she doesn't then the Order and the Court Rules apply.  Yes, you risk her agreeing and then recanting later after she got what she wanted but then you'd have basis to go to court if she reneged on the later portions of the deal.

Fortunately her birthday, which she wants, comes before the other events.  What she does then should address the rest.  That is good.  I had to learn the hard way that if I wanted a trade or deal to have a better likelihood of success, I had to get my end first, oh, and get it in writing (documentation in case needed in court).

This way you're not reasoning with someone who won't reason and yet you've stated reasonable terms and a reasonable position that the court ought to agree with, either supporting your terms of the agreement or if not supporting you then making changes to the order to prevent repeats of this selective re-interpretion behavior.

[david]

Years ago ex sent me an email asking if she could have our two boys the entire Mothers Day weekend. It was my weekend that year. Our court order specifies Mothers Day only and it has the time for pick up and drop off.

I looked at a calendar and noticed that Fathers Day fell on her weekend that year so I proposed we just switch the weekends. We would pick the boys up at school on Friday and drop them off at school on that Monday. Ex agreed to switch.

Everything went fine on her weekend. On my weekend I picked the boys up at school on Friday. Sunday we went to see Kung Fu Panda (it was the first one so you know it was a while back). When we arrived home ex was in the driveway ranting about how she was waiting there for several hours. I had a copy of the email agreement with me. I tried to explain and realized that was fruitless. I went to the local police station to see if they could help get her out of my driveway so I could get the boys in the house and to bed for school the next day. The police called her and she gave them some serious attitude. She finally drove to the police station and I was able to go home without incident.

A few days later she sent an email trying to explain herself. She indicated she didn't know why she would agree to such a thing. I used to reply to every email back then and my reply was simply that I didn't try to figure out why she agreed but that we had an agreement and that was that.

[Swiggle]

So we took some of this advice and sent the following email to her.

Our agreement states that “unless changed by agreement, days of special meaning and vacation times shall be consistent with local rule, attached hereto and incorporated herein”. This language can be found on page six of our agreement.

I will have the kids to you for your birthday at 10am, they are to be returned home at 8pm. If you would like to have the kids overnight, as we’ve done in the past on days of special meaning/holidays, that is fine with me but I need to know your confirmation on this today. If we continue overnights my expectation is, they are consistent with all (yours and mine) special meaning days/holidays.

Winter break, also not specified in the agreement will be consistent with the local rule schedule:

Me:      19th after school, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th

You:     25th at 11am, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th

Me:      31st at 9am,

You:     1st at noon,

We need to agree to dividing the remaining days 2nd, 3rd and 4th. My suggestion is below, Let me know if you have another idea.

You:     2nd (since you have them on the 1st)

You:     3rd until 3pm

Me:      3rd at 3pm

Me:      4th  dropping at school Monday morning the 5th.

If this schedule does not work for you, I would be happy to consider other options. If I don’t hear from you by the end of the weekend, I will make arrangements based on the above schedule.


She responded with:

Birthdays/ Mother's Day/ Father's Day  is fine. We have always done it that way in the past, I am fine to keep doing it that way. That is why I asked yesterday. We can keep the kids overnight on our "special day" as well. I don't have a problem with that. As far as the Holiday break schedule, I do have a problem with playing these stupid email games with your wife.  If you want to meet me tomorrow briefly after work to discuss  that and daughters dental work we can meet at the Burger King. Or we can meet at T office sometime next week. Let me know.

It is funny, sad, frustrating, crazymaking that when we originally asked about winter break a few weeks ago, stating that it was always divided up so that each of them could spend time with the kids her reply was:

I had been willing to work with DH in the past surrounding the Holiday break. However, you were the ones that insisted we change the agreement and have everything spelled out. We did that. Now, you are still wanting me to change it further because the schedule doesn't benefit you this year. Well, too bad. I don't ever HAVE to give up my time if I don't want to.  You can threaten court mediation all you want. Frankly, I would love to share with someone the constant bull I put up with from you two.

[ForeverDad]

She responded with... .As far as the Holiday break schedule, I do have a problem with playing these stupid email games with your wife.  If you want to meet me tomorrow briefly after work to discuss  that and daughters dental work we can meet at the Burger King. Or we can meet at T office sometime next week. Let me know.

Translation:  Part 1, clear yes.  Part 2, obfuscated no.  The purpose of proposed meeting is not to agree with H.

[david]

If you have a history of splitting the winter break in other emails from the past then you can simply send the same email above and add the dates of the emails where you agreed to splitting the winter break. I have done that several times and it always worked. My ex will deny anything unless I have solid evidence to the contrary. Then she simply says something like, "Oh I forgot" and then she agrees or she gives a dig at me and still agrees.

[Swiggle]

If you have a history of splitting the winter break in other emails from the past then you can simply send the same email above and add the dates of the emails where you agreed to splitting the winter break. I have done that several times and it always worked. My ex will deny anything unless I have solid evidence to the contrary. Then she simply says something like, "Oh I forgot" and then she agrees or she gives a dig at me and still agrees.

DH has an email from 2012 where she asked him in a phone call what his plans for winter break are. He responds via email, stating what what days he would like, she responded with something like... .I think it is ___ty you are taking the kids for all of their break but whatever it is what I have come to expect of you. That year she had them 1 day more than we did.

Last year 2013 they coordinated via text, he got a new phone and the texts didn't make it over. But I write everything on my calendar they were not yet on the new agreement parenting schedule so there were some dates changed around. The break was split, with her having two additional days. He let her have the extra time in return for the specific days he wanted/needed.

He referenced both of these when he brought up winter break with her a few weeks ago, stating that they have always worked together and split the break. She was willing but when he took her back to court she said she wasn't giving up anything she didn't have to and it didn't matter that they always did it this way.