Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

[doubleAries]

When I was a very small child--maybe 3 years old--I had this marble in a little clear plastic case I got from somewhere or another. It was very pretty and had a little gold band around the center of it that had words on it that I of course could not read. I got others to read it to me over and over until I finally had it memorized. It said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Once I had it memorized, I began to ask people what it meant. I recall getting lots of different answers, none of which I remember (except 1 from my mom---"it means you need to quit being an @sssshoole!"

Lately I have revisited this little marble and its famous words, and decided to come up with a meaning myself.

When I have said this saying to people, I've seen the expression on their faces that always matched my own--skepticism. Why? I think because many of us mostly hear the last part the most (as you would have them do unto you) and twist it a little, into trying to make others act the way we want them to. Which of course doesn't work so well.

So I am now exploring relating this saying to the concept of BOUNDARIES.

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU

Obviously this means "treat others the way you would like to be treated". But why? What will that accomplish? Will it make others treat me the way I want to be treated? It has finally occurred to me that this saying is not about others at all. If I think about the way I want to be treated, what I am thinking about is my core values. If I treat others the way I want to be treated, then I am living my core values. It's an easy step from there to start seeing the difference between self and not-self, and stop trying to get others to act the way I think they should act.

[Want2know]

Howdy, DA! 

I really like the visual of that marble... .I did not expect it to read that saying, though, the Golden Rule.  That's a pretty heavy statement to share with a 3 year old.

Obviously this means "treat others the way you would like to be treated". But why? What will that accomplish? Will it make others treat me the way I want to be treated? It has finally occurred to me that this saying is not about others at all. If I think about the way I want to be treated, what I am thinking about is my core values. If I treat others the way I want to be treated, then I am living my core values. It's an easy step from there to start seeing the difference between self and not-self, and stop trying to get others to act the way I think they should act.

There is a lot of writing about that phrase out there.  If you google it you'll see it's been referenced in most religions and it's meaning debated amongst writers and philosophers.

One take away I have from it is, as you stated, live your values, but I also think it is a reference to having empathy - I mean a broad scale, humanity based empathy.  Not so much as making others act in a certain way, but respecting that the way they treat you may be them living their core values.

[doubleAries]

Hi W2K! 

Hmmmm... .yes, I think you are correct. The empathy part has always occurred to me, but for me personally has been a slippery slope. As a codependent type person, I easily get empathy confused with blurry boundaries (though they are not the same). I'm one of those "starting gate rescuers" from the Karpman triangle, so empathy means I have to fix something in order to have value.

maybe my idea about "making others act a certain way" has been from so many responses from others (to the question of "what does this mean?" of an angry "why should I? no one has ever showed me any respect or compassion!" (uh, I spent a lot of time around "starting gate persecutor" types  )

[Blimblam]

Do onto others as would have them do onto you.

I read your earlier posts and I've been thinking about it.

I realized that is what we always are doing but within the context of of do unto others what has been done to you.

I've also heard the phrase coined don't do to others what you don't want done to you.

Thinking about all this made me realize that people are projecting into others a role to fill in the karpman triangle all the time.

I've made the decision to do to myself what I would want done to me, and not do to others what I wouldn't want done to me.  It's the only way I can at this point percieve avoiding the karpman drama triangle.

[Waifed]

I have heard this since I was a small child. It was my mothers favorite saying and it was drilled into me. It is a great example of how I have lived my life for the past 47 years. Unfortunately for me it evolved into something different. Somewhere along the road it became "put others before yourself". I became a classic codependent trying to live my life like my mother wanted me to and not for myself. That said, I believe it is a great mantra. If used properly. It is a very big part of life for those of us who are from the South.

[Vatz]

When I was a kid, I saw this thing. Within minutes I rephrased it in my mind... .

":)o unto others, before they can do unto you."

I don't remember what prompted me to see things that way, but I remember that every other child was competition. Friendships were nice, but as a kid I always felt that some day it would come down to either me or them. I sized up everyone, constantly. When I got fat, I have since become lesser than them. I think it's why I ended up and remained in an abusive relationship. "I deserve this for being weak and inferior" was always in the back of my mind.

Seeing a therapist about it. He says the problem is more with my self evaluation, rather than my philosophy.

[doubleAries]

My younger brother (diagnosed Anti-Social PD) always says "do unto others and then split". He thinks that's just as clever and funny as can be. It is also not just funny to him, but a life credo.

Like waifed, I tend more towards "put others first" (because I don't really exist, and therefore don't matter--unless someone else determines that I have value).

As a "starting gate rescuer" on the Karpman triangle, I am very self righteous in my comparison to my brother, who controls others by crapping on them, while I--the "selfless" one--control others by fixing/helping them. And comparing the methods is a tidy distraction from the core issue--trying to control others.

I have an extremely difficult time just listening to others. No one would be interested in what I have to say or in listening to what I'm going through (because I don't exist--I learned that growing up. I was told repeatedly how useless I was [polite paraphrasing] that it became obvious that I just didn't matter to the point of not even existing except as a whipping post). So when they are talking, I have to find something in what they are saying that I can fix or help with. Then launch into a lecture of "helping"--even as I see their eyes glazing over, as I unintentionally try to strip them of capability to run their own lives.

Seeing isn't knowing. Just because I see this pattern doesn't mean I know how to interrupt that circuit.

[vortex of confusion]

I have a slightly different take on this.

I don't remember where I read it but at one point I was reading something that took issue with the whole notion of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The reason is that it makes it too easy to project your values onto others. I think the context was in relation to kids and spouses. The gist was that it does not leave a lot of room for individuality.

That led me to thinking of examples of how this applies. Basically, I was thinking about how I prefer people to be up front and honest. My style of communication bugs some people so I try to keep that in mind and try to meet people where they are rather than where I am. I don't care for the touchy feely roundabout ways of communicating. I saw how there were times in my life when I treated other people how I wanted to be treated rather than how they wanted or needed to be treated. For example, treating my husband like I wanted to be treated is part of what led to some of the codependent and rescuing behaviors. It isn't that I want to be rescued. It is that my value system is such that people help each other. My definition of marriage and relationships is very different than my husband's. As a result that has led to problems. Now, I attempt to get to know others and honor them as individuals even if they have a completely different set of values than me. It is about trying to know myself well enough and trying to be strong enough within myself to be able to do for others without sacrificing myself.

[Pingo]

My younger brother (diagnosed Anti-Social PD) always says "do unto others and then split". He thinks that's just as clever and funny as can be. It is also not just funny to him, but a life credo.

Like waifed, I tend more towards "put others first" (because I don't really exist, and therefore don't matter--unless someone else determines that I have value).

As a "starting gate rescuer" on the Karpman triangle, I am very self righteous in my comparison to my brother, who controls others by crapping on them, while I--the "selfless" one--control others by fixing/helping them. And comparing the methods is a tidy distraction from the core issue--trying to control others.

I have an extremely difficult time just listening to others. No one would be interested in what I have to say or in listening to what I'm going through (because I don't exist--I learned that growing up. I was told repeatedly how useless I was [polite paraphrasing] that it became obvious that I just didn't matter to the point of not even existing except as a whipping post). So when they are talking, I have to find something in what they are saying that I can fix or help with. Then launch into a lecture of "helping"--even as I see their eyes glazing over, as I unintentionally try to strip them of capability to run their own lives.

Seeing isn't knowing. Just because I see this pattern doesn't mean I know how to interrupt that circuit.

Wow, that's amazing insight doubleAries!  I am thinking I have the same tendencies.  You really summarise why codependency is controlling, I never could quite wrap my head around it.

I have a slightly different take on this.

I don't remember where I read it but at one point I was reading something that took issue with the whole notion of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The reason is that it makes it too easy to project your values onto others. I think the context was in relation to kids and spouses. The gist was that it does not leave a lot of room for individuality.

That led me to thinking of examples of how this applies. Basically, I was thinking about how I prefer people to be up front and honest. My style of communication bugs some people so I try to keep that in mind and try to meet people where they are rather than where I am. I don't care for the touchy feely roundabout ways of communicating. I saw how there were times in my life when I treated other people how I wanted to be treated rather than how they wanted or needed to be treated. For example, treating my husband like I wanted to be treated is part of what led to some of the codependent and rescuing behaviors. It isn't that I want to be rescued. It is that my value system is such that people help each other. My definition of marriage and relationships is very different than my husband's. As a result that has led to problems. Now, I attempt to get to know others and honor them as individuals even if they have a completely different set of values than me. It is about trying to know myself well enough and trying to be strong enough within myself to be able to do for others without sacrificing myself.

This makes me think of "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman.  When I read this book it was very interesting to see that my idea of showing love isn't necessarily what the next person's idea is and you can see how someone feels unloved even though you think you are doing everything for them!  My ex and I had very different love languages.  His was touch (physical affection).  Unfortunately because pwBPD are like bottomless pits I could never give him enough!  He was always complaining I wasn't loving him enough!  It was exhausting.