Good MC today and I ended up triggered... need to define a new boundary

[formflier]

So... .my goal of talking about and gaining mutual agreement to slow things down... .was accomplished.  Very happy about this. 

We got into a bonus discussion that I figured would not go well.  Since we had talked about slowing it down before this... .and I kept hammering away at slowing down a discussion about how I (allegedly) "butted in" to her parenting of our daughter... .I believe she saw things from my point of view.

She didn't admit she was wrong... .I didn't put her on the spot.  She saw the point... .she acknowledged how it looked.

I'll try to do this quick: (story from a few weeks ago)  My daughter is "working for me" in the back room.  I'm sending her off to do little chores and she comes back to say they are done.  She comes back in room and starts crying.  I am giving her a hug... .comforting her... .and my wife starts saying "so now you are hugging her"... .you are taking her side... .etc etc.  Wife starts berating her about things said in other room.  Wife tells me to leave room so she can discipline the daughter.  I refuse to leave.  She claims because I refused to leave that I was "butting in" on an issue that she was having with our daughter.  That I was taking daughters side... etc etc.  I didn't know What the heck she or my daughter was talking about but my daughter was crying and saying that she didn't want to be talked to that way.

Anyway... .my wife saw that it appeared to me that she butted in on me comforting my daughter. 

I've got to run... more later.

The trigger was when my wife told the counselor how I "feel" about my daughter... .hint... she was wrong... .I felt invalidated.  Strong reaction... .

More later...

[formflier]

 

In more good news... my wife openly talked about how sometimes she just needs to "vent".  Explained to counselor that sometimes she goes in shower and "vents"... .talks things through outloud in the shower and "probably sounds crazy".

The goal of the talk was not the venting... .it was about if I was supposed to listen or ask questions... .and how I find that out without getting "blasted".

Luckily... .she agreed that I can directly ask the question... .and it will be ok to ask.

Back to the venting:  Wife has "offered" to not vent to me anymore.  She has mentioned to me and daughter that if need be she would leave and go for walk... .get all venting out... .and come back.

What I think I would like to bring up "next time"... .or at the appropriate time... .is more of a basic question.

Is venting a "healthy" strategy?  Is that a strategy to teach our kids... .?  Something along those lines.

She has said before it is the issues that make her vent... .and after venting she feels better.  I'm hoping she will search for a better coping strategy.

I can use some help on how to say... .or ask about this. 

Obviously I won't do it when she is edgy... .and I may just wait till next MC.  But... .since it is on the radar... .I want to address it... .

[MissyM]

Is venting a "healthy" strategy?  Is that a strategy to teach our kids... .?  Something along those lines.

FF, this sounds like a question the MC should be asking.  I know our MCs have suggested different things my husband can do, have a conversation with himself in his head, take a walk or use some form of distraction to return to neutrality.  If I suggested those things (and I have in the past) then it is met with a lot of resentment as he believes I am trying to control him.  Would the MC likely suggest something if you bring up that the venting bothers you?

[formflier]

Is venting a "healthy" strategy?  Is that a strategy to teach our kids... .?  Something along those lines.

FF, this sounds like a question the MC should be asking.  I know our MCs have suggested different things my husband can do, have a conversation with himself in his head, take a walk or use some form of distraction to return to neutrality.  If I suggested those things (and I have in the past) then it is met with a lot of resentment as he believes I am trying to control him.  Would the MC likely suggest something if you bring up that the venting bothers you?

Possibly.  I like that idea.  Of letting the MC ask the question.  I need to think on this some.  I would like to try... .especially now that "it's out in the open... " 

Maybe a real goal here is that once troublesome behaviors get out in the open... .that they stay there and are addressed.  I know this will take time. 

But what I would want to avoid is "I never said that... .or I don't do that... ."  Years ago things were brought up and I "dropped them" in favor of advice to "be more loving... ."... .to not hold things to account.  I think that was one of many things that set us back... .by letting things that came in with previous MCs... .go from being out in the open to "hidden" again without being solved.

I know we can't "solve" everything at once... and shouldn't try... .

I really wouldn't have picked this "Muttering"... .venting thing to be on the agenda now... but since it is... .I want to keep it there and "do something healthy with it... ."

Thoughts?

[believer55]

Hi FF  I tend to have the same experience that MM has that is... .if I suggest anything I am a know it all and am shot down as controlling. You may have a gut feeling as to how she will receive it from  you and what response you might get. What's the worst that can happen... .. best of luck!

[Crumbling]

That I was taking daughters side... etc etc.  I didn't know What the heck she or my daughter was talking about but my daughter was crying and saying that she didn't want to be talked to that way.

Anyway... .my wife saw that it appeared to me that she butted in on me comforting my daughter. 

So, did you find out what caused your daughter's tears?  Has that issue been addressed?  I know the MC is about MC, but it would certainly bother me if my kid was doing stuff with me, but came back into the room crying because of something the other parent said.  I think you had every right to be in the room when she was talking to her... .you're her parent too! 

The trigger was when my wife told the counselor how I "feel" about my daughter... .hint... she was wrong... .I felt invalidated.  Strong reaction... .

More later...

It's really good that you were in counselling when this happened.  Did your wife get what triggered you?  Did your MC talk you through it to a point that you felt better, validated? 

BPDh and I have had discussions lately around why he has no ability to see what's in my head and what motivates me and what I am thinking/feeling etc.  It drives me insane the way he is always deducing my motives and next moves... .frustrating! 

Any ideas on what your new boundary is going to look like?

Thanks for sharing,

c.

[formflier]

So, did you find out what caused your daughter's tears?  Has that issue been addressed? 

She was tired of being "spoken to that way"... ."mommy always does this... "  Basically... she doesn't like to be yelled at.  This was addressed in counseling... .I will continue to address it. 

Note:  Daughter may be using drama to get out of work.  She is teenager.  What I think happened is she was "mouthy"... .so my wife started yelling and berated her... .  Nice way to demonstrate to a kid that is being "mouthy" that you shouldn't be "mouthy"... .by yelling at them to stop yelling... .sigh.

It has been addressed... .but is not "fixed".  It's on the radar now... .I'm not dropping it 

We have a general agreement that in our family... .this year... .we will focus on speaking "nicer" to each other.  This was talked about in counseling as well.

I think you had every right to be in the room when she was talking to her... .you're her parent too! 

Yes... .a breakthrough that we had is that she was accusing me of trying to "but in" on her parenting... .she "saw" in counseling... .that she was the one that actually butted in... .  I was comforting daughter... .she came in and "ordered" me to leave.  Me not leaving was "butting in".

It's really good that you were in counselling when this happened.  Did your wife get what triggered you?  Did your MC talk you through it to a point that you felt better, validated? 

Yes... .somewhat... .I tend to trigger slowly and then takes a while to come back down.  It takes a while for me to think through "exactly" was is upsetting.  Especially when there is a fast paced... .multi allegation conversation going on. 

BPDh and I have had discussions lately around why he has no ability to see what's in my head and what motivates me and what I am thinking/feeling etc.  It drives me insane the way he is always deducing my motives and next moves... .frustrating! 

I'm going to need help refining this.  I like to write things out so they make sense beforehand.  This forum is great for that.

Boundary attempt 1:  I will tolerate no allegations, opinions, muttering... etc etc about my thoughts and motives unless I have given an invitation to another party to comment on them.  If this happens I will say in an even tone... "Stop commenting about my thoughts (or whatever as appropriate), please ask.  If not immediately corrected, I leave the conversation... .possibly room.

Thoughts?[/quote]

[Crumbling]

Ah, yes, the joys of hormonal teens!  oh, how I remember that craziness!  When I miss my adult kids, I remember these years, and I don't miss them any more.     But I'm glad to hear you're not letting the issue go.  It's a smart move on your part.

In re: your boundary... ."Stop commenting"... .this would put my BPDh on the defence because I'm 'telling him' what to do (ironic, I know, but that's BPD!)... .maybe a better alert to come back with would be... ."your comments make me feel like I'm being judged, and that breaks a boundary of mine, I will have to leave if it continues"... .or whatever you feel... .just something to shift from blame to fact, from your perspective.

[KateCat]

In my world, "muttering" is a godsend. It means that my mentally ill husband is doing his best to keep things "on his side of the street."

[sweetheart]

  KateCat muttering is good in our house too, it has similar meaning. Sorry ff not v helpful I know

[formflier]

In re: your boundary... ."Stop commenting"... .this would put my BPDh on the defence because I'm 'telling him' what to do (ironic, I know, but that's BPD!)... .maybe a better alert to come back with would be... ."your comments make me feel like I'm being judged, and that breaks a boundary of mine, I will have to leave if it continues"... .or whatever you feel... .just something to shift from blame to fact, from your perspective.

I wonder if I statements would be better.

"I will not listen to uninvited comments about my thoughts or emotions... "

Maybe add... ."if you would like to ask a question I would be happy to listen to a question... "

I can see it coming that she will ask a "loaded" question... .but... I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Loaded question:  Since you think blah blah blah... .why do you 123?  That's an extreme example... .but... .

[Grey Kitty]

Two thoughts:

#1: Venting.

Is venting about somebody out loud when you are alone healthy? Dunno.

Is venting about somebody out loud when you are alone MORE HEALTHY than berating the person in question directly?  YES, ABSOLUTELY YES!

I'd leave it at that, myself!

#2: Mind-reading/etc.

I enforce a boundary of not being told what I'm thinking or feeling, or what my motivation for my actions is. (This is easy since I'm usually triggered by it and pissed. I do work at being civil when I enforce that boundary.)

Being asked what I'm thinking or feeling is very different, and I encourage it.

Sometimes I'm able to gently ask if that was supposed to be a question instead of a statement.

[formflier]

Two thoughts:

#1: Venting.

Is venting about somebody out loud when you are alone healthy? Dunno.

Sometimes I'm able to gently ask if that was supposed to be a question instead of a statement.

Venting:  In her version... our version... .she can talk to me... .start getting angry... and walk into bathroom and vent about "he's a liar... .he's a this... he's a that... "

I can hear... kids can hear. 

I take the venting as an open window into her heart and soul... .at that moment.  What I've heard is bad.

I need to have a boundary for the telling me thinking and feeling thing...

But I like the attempt to "cool it down" that you make my gently asking a question... about is it a question.

I don't want to "blow things up"... .I"m less feisty than yesterday after MC. 

It's on me to find a way to do a boundary... .so that I don't expose myself to stuff that triggers me like that.

It had been a while since that had been tried... .and was about one of my kids... .basically she was saying how I "felt" about my daughter... .she got it wrong.

If she had described how I felt about eating a hamburger... .or what color I thought the moon was.  I doubt I would have cared.

[Grey Kitty]

Her definition of venting = still talking at you, but you cannot respond anymore.

No, that isn't healthy.

I might set a boundary: If you do this I will remove myself from earshot (and perhaps the children as well).

[MissyM]

 

I will tolerate no allegations, opinions, muttering... etc etc about my thoughts and motives unless I have given an invitation to another party to comment on them.  If this happens I will say in an even tone... "Stop commenting about my thoughts (or whatever as appropriate), please ask.  If not immediately corrected, I leave the conversation... .possibly room.

That is a lot like what I have been doing lately.  What I have been saying is "I am sorry but you do not get to decide how I feel or what I think.  That is not what I am thinking/feeling.  This is what I am thinking/feeling."  It has been working and he has stopped and reframed.  I do not need to threaten to leave the conversation or room but that is what would happen if it continued.

[Crumbling]

FF - "I" statements, yep, that's a better approach, I like it.    I agree with GK too, it doesn't sound like venting, it sounds like bashing... .not the same in my book.  If she's reinforcing wrong beliefs while she's doing it, it may be worth keeping the issue on the table, with MC and to examine her strategy with an unbiased bystander to moderate... .even with a boundary in place.

Have you ever heard the expression, "you cant stop the bird from landing on your head, but you can stop it from building a nest."? - It means you cant stop negative thoughts from popping into your head, but you can stop them from making things worse by dwelling on them.  Your wife's 'venting' sounds like she is passing the bird nails and boards so he can build a house in there!  Probably not the healthiest choice... .

As for assumptions about our feelings/thought/actions -- So blasted frustrating.  It is an on-going issue with us.  Even last weekend, there was a movie on tv and we were trying to guess the title. He came up with what he thought it was called, he remembers these things better than I.  I wondered if one could find a movie title on google with key words, so I tried it.  It came up with the same title he suggested.  No biggy, right?  Wrong.

He was insulted by my actions, and assumed I didn't believe him.  I swear, if I don't explain to him my motives for everything, he automatically assumes the worst!  I have to continually remind him he is not the centre of the universe, and I have no hidden agenda to make his life miserable!   

[formflier]

FF - "I" statements, yep, that's a better approach, I like it.  I agree with GK too, it doesn't sound like venting, it sounds like bashing... .not the same in my book. 

Crumbling and grey,

You are right... .I still hear about 50% of it usually... .and based on what I hear it is "about me".  So yes... .talking at me... .bashing... .is correct.

She has a subset of this which is the walk in the room... ."toss a verbal grenade... " and walk about... .even if I request she stay and discuss.  She may claim she is too busy... .things like that.  The  content is usually not as "black" or horrid as the venting... .but there is usually a "point" that is there that she will at some point reference in the future as "I've been told... ."

This is somewhat getting better... .because I'm sticking with the "I don't understand... .(which I really don't understand) and need you to slow down and fully explain it. 

Do you guys see these two things as being "connected"... .is there really an underlying issue or concept that I can address... and maybe knock out two things with one stone... .or at least make them better?

Have you ever heard the expression, "you cant stop the bird from landing on your head, but you can stop it from building a nest."? - It means you cant stop negative thoughts from popping into your head, but you can stop them from making things worse by dwelling on them.  Your wife's 'venting' sounds like she is passing the bird nails and boards so he can build a house in there!  Probably not the healthiest choice... .

The interesting thing is... .if you look at the venting as a release.  It does seem to work.  After a good vent session she does seem more relaxed... .and times when I've avoided it ... .or most of it... .then I'm ok too.

One of the patterns of the past that I'm trying to get away from is the issue of she vents... bashes... .and feels better.  I feel like Mack truck ran over me.

Of course... .the best thing is for her to manage her emotions better... that could be a ways off.

As for assumptions about our feelings/thought/actions -- So blasted frustrating.  It is an on-going issue with us.  Even last weekend, there was a movie on tv and we were trying to guess the title. He came up with what he thought it was called, he remembers these things better than I.  I wondered if one could find a movie title on google with key words, so I tried it.  It came up with the same title he suggested.  No biggy, right?  Wrong.

He was insulted by my actions, and assumed I didn't believe him.  I swear, if I don't explain to him my motives for everything, he automatically assumes the worst!  I have to continually remind him he is not the centre of the universe, and I have no hidden agenda to make his life miserable!   

Yeah... .similar things in our house as well.  How do you address it?

[formflier]

 

Thanks for the questions and advice... .

Keep'em coming.

Starting a new thread about last night... .over the issue of her knowing my emotions... .