Who are they anyway?

[Notwendy]

Unless someone is a sociopath, they usually are not happy creating chaos and pain in their lives and others. It seems that BP's have some awareness of what they are doing. I know that if they are paired with an enabler that this would reduce the incentive to change, but do they have any?

Like many people here, the question is why put up with it. We have our own predisposing issues, but for some, the person was quite amicable, with a few slips until we were so far deep that getting out is tough. For me, things were pretty OK- there were times I saw glimpses of Mr. Hyde, but that was attributed to being stressed at work. Mostly it was Dr. Jeckyll but sometimes that felt manipulative and contrived. Of course, there was no way to find out. "What are you thinking?" is the question that was never answered. Now, older and wiser, I'm not sure I even want to know what kind of thinking is behind this behavior.

Mr Hyde came into full force when we moved and I was pregnant and home with small children. Having lost my social support system, and carrying the load of the kids and home, Mr. Hyde showed his true colors, but just to the point when I could see who he was, he would become Dr. Jeckyll.

My father used to say he was only there for the kids and when we were grown, he'd leave. By that time, we would have been fine with it. From our perspective, Dad was the good guy and Mom was the bad one. I know now that this was an illusion too. They were both good and bad. However, he never did leave and I think I know why.

It got better. Now that the kids are older, it would be easier to leave, but we are still tangled up financially, emotionally and with family. I think it is better because he knows that the kids are the only reason I tolerated his behavior then, and now I don't have that reason as much.  So, this tells me he is aware of just how far to push me, and so the edge moves. Also I have stronger boundaries, but I think the kids are a big factor in how he modifies. Still, it doesn't make me feel any better that he knows this.

If he is capable of bringing out Dr. Jeckyll at will, and then taking him back, then is this really him? Or is he really Dr. Jeckyll with such poor ability to control emotions that he becomes what he doesn't want to be. I say this because I don't go to extremes no matter what my mood is. If I am happy or sad, or angry, I am still me regardless, but living with a disordered person can feel like living with two different people.

I know he's all of them, but wonder what the concensus is: Do you think your partner is a good person who dislikes when they are hurting others, or someone who just acts nice when it suits them?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ColdEthyl]

I believe my dBPDh is a good man who is emotionally challenged. He doesn't get his kicks off by hurting people. His actions are a response to a fight or flight mechanism that's calibrated differently.

Take for example my dog. My dog is somewhere around 5 years old. We have had him for 4 years since my husband rescued him from the streets. My dog is loving, affectionate, funny, and a blast to hang out with. However, he is anxious and a bit neurotic. He doesn't like anyone coming into the house at all. He does like strangers and will bark and act like he's going to attack them, but never does. In reality, he's afraid and trying to freak out the 'scary thing' that's in his home.

Does my dog somehow take pleasure in hurting others? No. No he does not. His responses are due to living on the streets, probable abuse. He trusts only us.

His fight or flight is calibrated differently.

[Notwendy]

This is also something I wonder, because for my parents, it did get better, and then it got worse.

For one, Dad was in denial and he also completely enabled her by tending to her every want and need. In a way, he's also responsible for keeping her from growing emotionally.

He was also in denial by refusing to report her for abuse.

Dad was able to be her caretaker, until age set in and he became ill. This triggered her abandonment fears because he was leaving, he was dying, and since he was completetely trapped at her mercy, she became very abusive to him.

I spoke to his doctors, social workers, social services asking for assistance so that he would not be alone with her under her care. Since he was still a legal adult, he had to agree, but he did not. He denied there was a problem, and as one might predict, both of them ended up raging at me.

This is an incentive to me, and hopefully all of you, to use what we know now. He didn't know what else to do. Back then, there was no diagnosis, no treatment, and nobody to tell him, not even an internet to get onto a board like this. He was a good man, a noble man, and he knew she was sick and would never leave her. He was a good husband and father in the best way he knew how.

He did leave her with money to live on and to hire help. He lived very frugally and I found some of his papers where it seems he had put a good amount of money for her if she needed it. We thought she would go to pieces when he was gone and anticipated she'd harm herself or be committed. She did not. She still has her addictions, but we don't get involved with that. That is her problem.  I hold her to boundaries and her behavior with me is better. One reason is that without Dad sticking up for her, she can't use that on me. It used to be that if she was mad, she'd get dad in the action. She knew I was pretty detatched from her, but not dad. I put up with a lot of her behavior because I loved him. (get the pattern).

So I hope that being aware, having boundaries, getting help will make it doable. It may never be perfect, but nothing is.

[Notwendy]

Cold Ethyl, I think you are right, I have to believe it.

He has only raged with me.

My H is loving all the time to the kids, and even to the cat. He would never hurt them. However, they don't present the emotional challenge to him that I do because it's a different relationship. The kids look up to him and don't argue back, as I handled all the behavior issues. Thankfully they are good kids, but any emotional issues were taken to me.

And the cat doesn't talk back at all  

Sometimes I think he hates that he rages, but he never quite apologizes, just acts super nice the next day as if that makes up for it.

[ColdEthyl]

Cold Ethyl, I think you are right, I have to believe it.

He has only raged with me.

My H is loving all the time to the kids, and even to the cat. He would never hurt them. However, they don't present the emotional challenge to him that I do because it's a different relationship. The kids look up to him and don't argue back, as I handled all the behavior issues. Thankfully they are good kids, but any emotional issues were taken to me.

And the cat doesn't talk back at all  

Sometimes I think he hates that he rages, but he never quite apologizes, just acts super nice the next day as if that makes up for it.

Apologizing would admit fault. They have a very difficult time doing that because admitting fault is admitting you are not perfect. If you are not perfect... .you are worthless. It's all or nothing with them, black or white thinking.

What do you mean when you say "they don't present the emotional challenge to him that I do because it's a different relationship"? How do you challenge him emotionally? I could be misunderstanding this statement, so I didn't want to comment and be way off

[Notwendy]

I don't go out of the way to challenge him emotionally. In fact, I've done too much tip toeing around him and being accomodating in order to not do it ( that has to stop).

I mean that a marriage is emotionally challenging to people with poor emotion regulation because it involves a different level of intimacy between equal partners and this takes a high level of emotional maturity. One should never expect a child to have the emotional maturity of an adult, but an adult is expected to be emotionally mature even if they are not. A parent has more authority with a child, for instance the child is not a partner when making financial decisions, or other decisions that require adult communication and team work. Marriage also involves sexual intimacy which is extremely triggering. Children don't ask parents about personal aspects of their lives.

I think the intimate partner relationship is where one is more vulnerable and that is scary.

An area where a marriage is a challenge is that it would be great to be on a constant honeymoon, but we know that isn't realistic. A couple can have a healthy sex life and still have those times where one is not feeling well/ tired, or whatever. I think one needs to keep the whole picture in mind.

For us, it would take one "no" to undo everything. For instance we can be fine, but something like a bladder infection is a rejection to the core of his being. He feels worthless and unloved. I guess I expect a mature adult to think that a marriage is still good even when a partner isn't feeling well.

I didn't see this in black and white terms but you are right, one "no" undoes every other "yes".

I get the perfect/worthless dichotomy. One mistake or criticism = worthless in his mind. This is so sad. I don't believe this is true about people. None of us is perfect but we are still worthy.

[ColdEthyl]

I don't go out of the way to challenge him emotionally. In fact, I've done too much tip toeing around him and being accomodating in order to not do it ( that has to stop).

I mean that a marriage is emotionally challenging to people with poor emotion regulation because it involves a different level of intimacy between equal partners and this takes a high level of emotional maturity. One should never expect a child to have the emotional maturity of an adult, but an adult is expected to be emotionally mature even if they are not. A parent has more authority with a child, for instance the child is not a partner when making financial decisions, or other decisions that require adult communication and team work. Marriage also involves sexual intimacy which is extremely triggering. Children don't ask parents about personal aspects of their lives.

I think the intimate partner relationship is where one is more vulnerable and that is scary.

I get the perfect/worthless dichotomy. One mistake or criticism = worthless in his mind. This is so sad. I don't believe this is true about people. None of us is perfect but we are still worthy.

I agree, though sometimes I've seen my husband dysreguate over something one of my children has done, but he never says a word to them, just to me about it.

It is extremely difficult for them in a relationship for the reasons you just stated. I know all too well about intimacy/ sexual intimacy issues. It is the one area I'm still wondering around like a lost child in. My dBPDh 'says' he has ED, but refuses to go to the doctor. So... .not a whole lot going in that department... .and communication about the subject has been ineffective thus far.

Their entire thought process is sad if you look at each part separately. It's sad that one mistake=worthless to them. It's sad they hate themselves so much, they constantly compare themselves to others and critique themselves, to the point where they will think something must be wrong with YOU because you love them.

[Notwendy]

My H does the same thing with the kids. They can upset him but he doesn't say anything to them, but he does to me.

If the kids are upset about something- friends, school- whatever, they come to me about it, maybe because I have been more accessible with dad at work, or they just sense it isn't a good idea to put that on him.

The ED issue has occured on occasion. I can accept that. We are not teenagers and menopause has effects too. I think one can still have a good physical marriage and accomodate the changes of natural aging, but this is a source of deep emotional hurt and so triggering in any discussion.

[ColdEthyl]

My H does the same thing with the kids. They can upset him but he doesn't say anything to them, but he does to me.

If the kids are upset about something- friends, school- whatever, they come to me about it, maybe because I have been more accessible with dad at work, or they just sense it isn't a good idea to put that on him.

The ED issue has occured on occasion. I can accept that. We are not teenagers and menopause has effects. I think one can still have a good physical marriage and accomodate the changes of natural aging, but this is a source of deep emotional hurt and so triggering in any discussion.

The reason why pwBPD are so difficult to be in a relationship with is sometimes it's like we speak different languages. If he's dysregulating, he can't hear me, he repeats the same thing over and over and over again, and it's ALWAYS this or NEVER that. I made the mistakes of JADEing and FOG before I understood what was going on. It's flawed thinking, flawed logic and flawed rationale with the backdrop of unrealistic emotions. For them emotion=fact, so how can anyone possibly combat that? I'll tell you what, it's been getting easier and better with the tools on this site. I am so very thankful for this place!

Well the ED issue for me is a bit different. I am 35 my dBPDh is 49. Neither of us are in a higher age category, though he's been complaining about being a senior citizen since I've known him rofl

[drummerboy]

I've thought about this a lot too. I think my ex was a good person deep down but part of the illness is permanently acting to try to look normal when underneath they are constantly at war with themselves. It must be so tiring to have to act your whole life. Then there is the constant anxiety, worrying about everything, most of which will never happen or is self created. They are so self absorbed with their inner turmoil they have nothing left when it comes to considering the effect their actions on others, it's all me me me. I don't think they deliberately set out to hurt people, it's just that there incapable of thinking about others because their illness is constantly on their minds

Unless someone is a sociopath, they usually are not happy creating chaos and pain in their lives and others. It seems that BP's have some awareness of what they are doing. I know that if they are paired with an enabler that this would reduce the incentive to change, but do they have any?

Like many people here, the question is why put up with it. We have our own predisposing issues, but for some, the person was quite amicable, with a few slips until we were so far deep that getting out is tough. For me, things were pretty OK- there were times I saw glimpses of Mr. Hyde, but that was attributed to being stressed at work. Mostly it was Dr. Jeckyll but sometimes that felt manipulative and contrived. Of course, there was no way to find out. "What are you thinking?" is the question that was never answered. Now, older and wiser, I'm not sure I even want to know what kind of thinking is behind this behavior.

Mr Hyde came into full force when we moved and I was pregnant and home with small children. Having lost my social support system, and carrying the load of the kids and home, Mr. Hyde showed his true colors, but just to the point when I could see who he was, he would become Dr. Jeckyll.

My father used to say he was only there for the kids and when we were grown, he'd leave. By that time, we would have been fine with it. From our perspective, Dad was the good guy and Mom was the bad one. I know now that this was an illusion too. They were both good and bad. However, he never did leave and I think I know why.

It got better. Now that the kids are older, it would be easier to leave, but we are still tangled up financially, emotionally and with family. I think it is better because he knows that the kids are the only reason I tolerated his behavior then, and now I don't have that reason as much.  So, this tells me he is aware of just how far to push me, and so the edge moves. Also I have stronger boundaries, but I think the kids are a big factor in how he modifies. Still, it doesn't make me feel any better that he knows this.

If he is capable of bringing out Dr. Jeckyll at will, and then taking him back, then is this really him? Or is he really Dr. Jeckyll with such poor ability to control emotions that he becomes what he doesn't want to be. I say this because I don't go to extremes no matter what my mood is. If I am happy or sad, or angry, I am still me regardless, but living with a disordered person can feel like living with two different people.

I know he's all of them, but wonder what the concensus is: Do you think your partner is a good person who dislikes when they are hurting others, or someone who just acts nice when it suits them?

[drummerboy]

I've thought about this a lot too. I think my ex was a good person deep down but part of the illness is permanently acting to try to look normal when underneath they are constantly at war with themselves. It must be so tiring to have to act your whole life. Then there is the constant anxiety, worrying about everything, most of which will never happen or is self created. They are so self absorbed with their inner turmoil they have nothing left when it comes to considering the effect their actions on others, it's all me me me. I don't think they deliberately set out to hurt people, it's just that they are incapable of thinking about others because their illness is constantly on their minds

Unless someone is a sociopath, they usually are not happy creating chaos and pain in their lives and others. It seems that BP's have some awareness of what they are doing. I know that if they are paired with an enabler that this would reduce the incentive to change, but do they have any?

Like many people here, the question is why put up with it. We have our own predisposing issues, but for some, the person was quite amicable, with a few slips until we were so far deep that getting out is tough. For me, things were pretty OK- there were times I saw glimpses of Mr. Hyde, but that was attributed to being stressed at work. Mostly it was Dr. Jeckyll but sometimes that felt manipulative and contrived. Of course, there was no way to find out. "What are you thinking?" is the question that was never answered. Now, older and wiser, I'm not sure I even want to know what kind of thinking is behind this behavior.

Mr Hyde came into full force when we moved and I was pregnant and home with small children. Having lost my social support system, and carrying the load of the kids and home, Mr. Hyde showed his true colors, but just to the point when I could see who he was, he would become Dr. Jeckyll.

My father used to say he was only there for the kids and when we were grown, he'd leave. By that time, we would have been fine with it. From our perspective, Dad was the good guy and Mom was the bad one. I know now that this was an illusion too. They were both good and bad. However, he never did leave and I think I know why.

It got better. Now that the kids are older, it would be easier to leave, but we are still tangled up financially, emotionally and with family. I think it is better because he knows that the kids are the only reason I tolerated his behavior then, and now I don't have that reason as much.  So, this tells me he is aware of just how far to push me, and so the edge moves. Also I have stronger boundaries, but I think the kids are a big factor in how he modifies. Still, it doesn't make me feel any better that he knows this.

If he is capable of bringing out Dr. Jeckyll at will, and then taking him back, then is this really him? Or is he really Dr. Jeckyll with such poor ability to control emotions that he becomes what he doesn't want to be. I say this because I don't go to extremes no matter what my mood is. If I am happy or sad, or angry, I am still me regardless, but living with a disordered person can feel like living with two different people.

I know he's all of them, but wonder what the concensus is: Do you think your partner is a good person who dislikes when they are hurting others, or someone who just acts nice when it suits them?

[Notwendy]

Ethyl- we have similar issues. I have always felt that my H and I spoke two different languages. It's as if what I say gets translated into his head to the same message " I'm defective" even if there was no intention in it. This is why we can talk about non-personal things like news events or the weather fairly well, but nothing personal. I didn't know what was going on for the longest time- as drummerboy aluded to, they spend so much time working on appearing normal- that one doesn't see a problem until they dysregulate. How I played into this is that dysregulation is a trigger for me- as a kid, it meant we were in big trouble in our family when mom did this as we were raised to believe it was our fault if this happened and if we asked about it, we were told it was our fault. So, as you can see, when my otherwise competent H blamed me for his rages, I believed him, and by this time, I was usually crying so hysterically from being raged at that I did look like the one that was out of control. When we were first married, I still believed this family lie, and so I believed him too.

The intimacy issues are probably inevitable. I knew something about this because my mom shared too much TMI with me. I think she saw me as a confidant when I was a teen, and she had poor boundaries about this. I was aware that withholding sex as a punishment was damaging to a marriage, and this was something I didn't want to ever do. It was upsetting when my H would do this, under the assumption that I was doing this. We didn't have issues, at least I thought we didn't, and I assumed that a grown adult would see the big picture when a spouse who was attracted to him could still be attracted to him but might not be available on occasion due to other reasons. He refused to help much with the kids, so being pregnant and exhausted created changes in desire for me, but I never turned him down to be mean. Still, he would somehow interpret pregnant wife with morning sickness into personal rejection, that I wasn't attracted to him and it would make him despair. He would use terms like "we never have sex" when we did two days before. This upset me to the point where I started to keep track on the calendar because what he was saying wasn't based on truth. No matter how frequently,  one "no" became "never".

This was also the time in our marriage that he devalued me and then ignored me. He went for a period of time where he would not touch me or kiss me. I was devastated. If I asked, it was always my fault- I didn't seem interested enough, I didn't do this or that. The criticism was too much for me and I disconnected my feelings from the act, and just went along with it so that we didn't have constant raging in the house. If I tried to talk to him, he'd dysregulate, I'd cry and then he'd say " see you want me to talk to you about personal stuff but this is why I can't"

The ED part was throwing gasoline onto the problem. I considered the occasional times to be part of normal life. We were getting older, work was stressful, and I can accept this. I know it is embarrasing and difficult for a man even in a loving relationship, but it was so magnified here. He'd blame me for it, refuse to talk about it. Then, eventually, he did find a way to get some medicine for it, but he didn't tell me that either at the time. However, when one partner turns the clock back in time, physically, without telling the other, that is noticeable, so I asked. That was a difficult moment.

At this point, I do care about him, love him in the best way I can at this point, and we have a physical life, but the collective raging, criticisms, and poor communication have changed my emotional connection with it. I know he loves me and we are committed to each other. It's just sad that this has affected what could have been a more connecting aspect of marriage.

[Notwendy]

Drummerboy- your response makes sense to me, because I get the sense that my H is always trying to keep things under control inside his head. When we were first married, he presented this very strong, and flawless image. He was disdainful of emotional people. He really doesn't show much emotion at all, except anger when he's raging. I never quite knew if he was happy, sad, or anything else.

If the conversation gets personal, his speech is slow and laboring. It is as if every word is measured and calculated. He can "talk" without sharing anything about himself. It is exhausting to have a conversation like this. I used to describe it as a brick wall around him that what I say to him bounces back at me.

It is sad to think someone has to work so hard to control their responses.

[bobcat2014]

Wendy,

Always a fan of your posts, questions and insight.

Who are they? Sociopaths.

All BPD people are narcissist on some level, even the quiet waif types. During the honeymoon phase they CAN control emotions and behavior. Likewise, during the hater phase they can also control emotions during manipulations, especially when hurting people. This is sociopath pathology pure and simple. Both sociopaths and BPD lack empathy which makes them one and the same.

[EaglesJuju]

Who are they? Sociopaths.

All BPD people are narcissist on some level, even the quiet waif types. During the honeymoon phase they CAN control emotions and behavior. Likewise, during the hater phase they can also control emotions during manipulations, especially when hurting people. This is sociopath pathology pure and simple. Both sociopaths and BPD lack empathy which makes them one and the same.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this. 

Narcissistic traits can be found even in non disordered people. 

Although the lack of empathy may seem similar amongst ASPD (sociopathy) and BPD, the diagnostic criteria differs. The criteria for empathy for ASPD is a "lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering for others."  Also, having a "lack of remorse for hurting or mistreating others."  On the other hand, the lack of empathy for criteria for BPD is a "compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity." One of the main differences is the lack of remorse with ASPD. 

BPD and ASPD are both cluster b disorders. Many cluster b personality disorders can have overlapping traits. 

The core of BPD is heightened emotional dysregulation. Essentially, pwBPD have a hard time controlling their emotions.   

[Notwendy]

Thanks bobcat- after years of learning to deal with my mom, you'd think I'd have caught on to this sooner but being that BPD is a spectrum it can present differently in different people. So is sociopathy. To me the difference is with emotional dysregulation while sociopaths have no empathy but they don't necessarily dysregulate. When a person with BPD shows no empathy it is probably due to intense self focus.

There were times I wondered if my mom was a sociopath but she is also frequently dysregulated. My H is usually quite controlled- but when triggered can be quite hurtful verbally. It is so much like Jeckyl /Hyde it is confusing.

[Notwendy]

When I did some reading on sociopathy, one aspect that I found interesting was the motivation/reward of the manipulations. Sociopaths seem to be born this way, lacking empathy, and seem to enjoy the manipulations as a means of connection- not a positive way, but a way of interacting with people since they can't seem to emotionally connect like people who have empathy do. They seem to lie on the more extreme end of the spectrum of NPD. They would get pleasure out of the pain they cause people and do it in order to get that pleasure.

For people with BPD, it would seem to me that the pain they cause other people eminates from their internal pain, and that they don't get pleasure from it, but also dissociate from any bad feelings about it. For pwBPD, I see this more as like a child with a stomach ache. He feels bad, so he throws it up rather than keeping it. Then the child feels better-and there's a pile of vomit to clean up. My mom could rage, and the next day act like it never happened. I think she is able to compartmentalize it so much that it actually didn't happen. Because she can dissociate to this extent, I think this is on a more severe end of the spectrum of BPD. She's able to hold it together in public, but at home, she raged at my dad and her kids.

My H is competent and has better self control. He would not do this to his kids, and his rages are not as disorganized as my moms. Why it is exclusive to me is also because of my poor boundaries early on and my strong reinforcing behavior. I don't think he sets out to cause pain- it comes out of the pain that he tries so hard to cover up most of the time. My question- who are they anyway, comes from what seems like an extreme paradox- a calm collected, confident man, and then someone who has such a painfully low self image that almost anything can trigger feelings of rejection.

[ColdEthyl]

Wendy,

Always a fan of your posts, questions and insight.

Who are they? Sociopaths.

All BPD people are narcissist on some level, even the quiet waif types. During the honeymoon phase they CAN control emotions and behavior. Likewise, during the hater phase they can also control emotions during manipulations, especially when hurting people. This is sociopath pathology pure and simple. Both sociopaths and BPD lack empathy which makes them one and the same.

Sorry bobcat, I also have to disagree. My mother is a sociopath, and her thoughts and feelings are self centered like a pwBPD, but there's a big difference with her and my husband. With her, she has no empathy. I've seen this woman cry and say she will miss me and be laughing 15 seconds later. I've seen her use and abuse people and suck them dry as much as she could and never blink an eye about it. It's a totally different beast than pwBPD.

My husband doesn't lack empathy, it's just overshadowed with his anxiety and personal dysregulation at the time. He feels other people's pain, and doesn't like to hurt others. When he isn't in a dysregulated state his emotions and thoughts are "normal".

[maxsterling]

I know he's all of them, but wonder what the concensus is: Do you think your partner is a good person who dislikes when they are hurting others, or someone who just acts nice when it suits them?

Personally, I think this actually goes to another level that our rational brains can't wrap ourselves around.  I think you are asking the question from a rational perspective, and that doesn't apply to these irrational situations.  My experience is that pwBPD live in a universe where there is no "good or bad".  Perhaps some things that have happened recently:

- she was in tears the other day about how much she hurt me and doesn't want to be this way, and doesn't want to yell at me.  Half an hour later she was screaming and flipping the kitchen table over.

- She usually goes on and on about how much her dad abandoned her and didn't help her out when she was younger.  Yet the other day she told me how he cut her off after he took her to rehab for the final time, and she says that was the right decision for him. 

- made a comment yesterday about putting me through an "emotional roller coaster" - very self aware.  Yet an hour later started the roller coaster right back up.

I think if I could climb into the mind of a pwBPD, it would feel like I was in the "fight or flight" emotional mode with periods of rational thought less than 5% of the time.  Their rational thought process is so completely hijacked by survival emotions, that they have little control over what they do.  Everything is about satisfying their emotion of the moment, and that emotion does not know good or bad. 

[Notwendy]

I think you are right about the being in emotional fight or flight part of the time. When highly motivated, though, they can hold it together. Maybe this is done with a lot of effort that we don't understand as we don't think too much about how to act and what to say. However, if I ask my H a question that is the least bit personal, then his speech is slow and labored as if he is measuring everything he says.

Yet in social situations that they enjoy, they can be nice. I once met some of my mom's friends that she made recently and they told me how wonderful she was. People who know my H love him, think he's amazing. However, these are not deeply personal relationships. I also wonder if this is a false self they know how to project and who are they genuinely.

My H can be wonderful and a great person. In many ways he is. I don't want to define him by the raging moments, but it does seem like a huge reaction to any perceived insult- most that aren't insults at all, just that he feels that they are.

The answer is, that who they are might be fluctuating which is why they are so vulnerable to comments, and that is very sad to think someone is feeling that way.

[Cole]

Who they are, at least in my BPD wife's case, are people hijacked by uncontrolled emotion.

She lives a constant battle between what she knows is right and who she wants to be vs. out of control emotions which are to the contrary of her core beliefs. When the emotions over-ride the morals and ethics and dictate an action, she later feels such shame that she cannot cope with it and loses a little more of who she is. (That is not to say they cannot be helped if they want the help bad enough. Sometimes we need to give them that motivation.)

I think that is the difference between sociopath and pwBPD. pwBPD harbor severe regret over their actions.     

   

[maxsterling]

Notwendy - I have noticed the same thing.   In most cases, when she needs to, she can turn off the angst for a little while.  Eventually, she cracks, and nearly every relationship has ended in ruin.  She can also be having a horrible raging time with me, then go out with a friend and have a decent time.  She has to.  it's a protection mechanism.  I think the simple act of having others around is a temporary distraction from what is going on.  I think the same is true for most of us - we may be distraught or depressed, but somehow our troubles go on the back burner when we are forced to attend a social situation. 

[Cole]

Notwendy - I have noticed the same thing.   In most cases, when she needs to, she can turn off the angst for a little while.  Eventually, she cracks, and nearly every relationship has ended in ruin.  She can also be having a horrible raging time with me, then go out with a friend and have a decent time.  She has to.  it's a protection mechanism.  I think the simple act of having others around is a temporary distraction from what is going on.  I think the same is true for most of us - we may be distraught or depressed, but somehow our troubles go on the back burner when we are forced to attend a social situation.  

It is truly amazing how they can seemingly pull it together when they need to. I guess that is why so many actors and actresses are BPD. They can jump outside themselves to play a part and be someone else. I think it starts as a defense mechanism then becomes a way of life.