Deep attachments to unhealthy people~

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi friends, I am not sure which board to post this on. I would appreciate it if the moderator puts it where it belongs, since I didn't see a option that reads: Many of the friendships in my life.  I wanted to put it in the personal inventory or dating threads, but kept having technical difficulties.  I almost gave up altogether, but I really wanted to post.  It has been a while since I've spent any significant time on the boards here, I came to a place in my healing that I felt my heart scabs kept getting ripped off reading about other peoples stories.  So, I slowly stated to put myself out there in my daily life, choosing healthy activities, being picky about who I interacted with, sticking with the tried and true friends.

What I have found is that many of my friends exhibit definite traits of being personality disordered, some even admitting to diagnosis. Others are so high functioning, I am not even sure what type of gas lighting is happening, but I am experiencing some outrageous behavior and being painted black within long term friendships.  I see it happening, and have chosen to draw back, but many of these relationships are very long term friendships, and I hate to lose them too.  I understand as I continue my healing that I may have to walk away from these also, but my heart just hurts so much at the thought of losing these also.  I have been trying to figure out how to create and maintain boundaries, so I've been reading on the Staying board for some tips.  The bottom line is that I feel like a moth to the flame.  The deep attachments I have to unhealthy people with such black and white ways of being engaging in push/pull behavior is affecting me and giving me great concern to what my future holds.  As a single person I find I don't have the personal or financial power to do what I need, which is to relocate.  My personal economy hasn't bounced back after my last relationship.  

Gosh, I'm finding I'm just in beginning to want to make new friends (I lost the majority of my community during my last BPD b/u), but many of the people I've met (and even a couple of the people I've dated) are 1 degree of separation from both of my ex's. (My kid's dad is uPD and my next serious relationship after him certainly was too.  Handsome and charismatic devils). It's been 3 1/2 years since my last b/u.  As I uncover these connections to my ex's and my replacements I find myself wanting to retreat into isolation, as I never want to see either of those men or my replacements ever again.  I am aware that at some point there will be occasions to see my children's father again, but those are limited now that both of my kids are adults and out of the house.  But, to get back to the point: I am ready and hopeful to meet new people and make new friends that might even one day become more than friendship, and I am just so afraid to trust myself not to mention the people I am meeting.  For example, I asked a guy out on a date last fall.  He worked at the auto parts store down the street from my house, and was flirty and cute, so I asked him to a show downtown.  I drove, he proceeded to get wasted, ,  and over a late night meal at Denny's (seriously) I mentioned that he lived down the street and around the corner from my kid's dad who owns a local cleaning business and named the business.  

He just looked at me and started drunkenly repeating "this isn't making sense", over and over.  He then said my ex's name, and told me my ex cleaned his house- so I asked if the ex had ever mentioned his kid's mom, and my date said "the crazy ex!".  You can imagine.  So, I dropped my drunk date off and that was that.  Now, I don't live in a totally small town, but it sure feels that way.  Just last month I threw a dance party with 3 other women I met at other dance parties here, and it turns out that two of them are friends of my replacement with my last ex, and now I'm freaked out about them being friends on my FB account and in a place of anxiety about moving forward with these relationships.  I have learned how to be ok with being alone, I can self sooth and go out by myself and have fun.  But I am a social creature, and would like to be in community again.  I would like to feel like I have new friends, that I can make good choices in relationships.  Even though I   love  being love bombed, I really watch out for that red flag, as that's the one that always trips me up.  I am very tired of being alone all the time.  If my landlord would allow me to get a pet I might do it, but I really don't want to be tied down with a pet.  I'm just lonely.  Sigh.  

Sometimes I think I should just give my life up to God, except I'm not religious.     So, I guess I'm looking for tools.  I'm looking for some way to move forward.  I like to say I'm thinking about thinking about dating, but again, I don't know that I am in a place where I feel safe to open my heart again.  I guess it would be more apropo to talk about this if I was actually meeting people that I might I want to date.  Heck, I would be happy with a healthy friendship.  Looking for coaching and support, thanks.

[starshine]

Hi friends, I am not sure which board to post this on. I would appreciate it if the moderator puts it where it belongs, since I didn't see a option that reads: Many of the friendships in my life.  I wanted to put it in the personal inventory or dating threads, but kept having technical difficulties.  I almost gave up altogether, but I really wanted to post.  It has been a while since I've spent any significant time on the boards here, I came to a place in my healing that I felt my heart scabs kept getting ripped off reading about other peoples stories.  So, I slowly stated to put myself out there in my daily life, choosing healthy activities, being picky about who I interacted with, sticking with the tried and true friends.

What I have found is that many of my friends exhibit definite traits of being personality disordered, some even admitting to diagnosis. Others are so high functioning, I am not even sure what type of gas lighting is happening, but I am experiencing some outrageous behavior and being painted black within long term friendships.  I see it happening, and have chosen to draw back, but many of these relationships are very long term friendships, and I hate to lose them too.  I understand as I continue my healing that I may have to walk away from these also, but my heart just hurts so much at the thought of losing these also.  I have been trying to figure out how to create and maintain boundaries, so I've been reading on the Staying board for some tips.  The bottom line is that I feel like a moth to the flame.  The deep attachments I have to unhealthy people with such black and white ways of being engaging in push/pull behavior is affecting me and giving me great concern to what my future holds.  As a single person I find I don't have the personal or financial power to do what I need, which is to relocate.  My personal economy hasn't bounced back after my last relationship.  

Gosh, I'm finding I'm just in beginning to want to make new friends (I lost the majority of my community during my last BPD b/u), but many of the people I've met (and even a couple of the people I've dated) are 1 degree of separation from both of my ex's. (My kid's dad is uPD and my next serious relationship after him certainly was too.  Handsome and charismatic devils). It's been 3 1/2 years since my last b/u.  As I uncover these connections to my ex's and my replacements I find myself wanting to retreat into isolation, as I never want to see either of those men or my replacements ever again.  I am aware that at some point there will be occasions to see my children's father again, but those are limited now that both of my kids are adults and out of the house.  But, to get back to the point: I am ready and hopeful to meet new people and make new friends that might even one day become more than friendship, and I am just so afraid to trust myself not to mention the people I am meeting.  For example, I asked a guy out on a date last fall.  He worked at the auto parts store down the street from my house, and was flirty and cute, so I asked him to a show downtown.  I drove, he proceeded to get wasted, ,  and over a late night meal at Denny's (seriously) I mentioned that he lived down the street and around the corner from my kid's dad who owns a local cleaning business and named the business.  

He just looked at me and started drunkenly repeating "this isn't making sense", over and over.  He then said my ex's name, and told me my ex cleaned his house- so I asked if the ex had ever mentioned his kid's mom, and my date said "the crazy ex!".  You can imagine.  So, I dropped my drunk date off and that was that.  Now, I don't live in a totally small town, but it sure feels that way.  Just last month I threw a dance party with 3 other women I met at other dance parties here, and it turns out that two of them are friends of my replacement with my last ex, and now I'm freaked out about them being friends on my FB account and in a place of anxiety about moving forward with these relationships.  I have learned how to be ok with being alone, I can self sooth and go out by myself and have fun.  But I am a social creature, and would like to be in community again.  I would like to feel like I have new friends, that I can make good choices in relationships.  Even though I   love  being love bombed, I really watch out for that red flag, as that's the one that always trips me up.  I am very tired of being alone all the time.  If my landlord would allow me to get a pet I might do it, but I really don't want to be tied down with a pet.  I'm just lonely.  Sigh.  

Sometimes I think I should just give my life up to God, except I'm not religious.     So, I guess I'm looking for tools.  I'm looking for some way to move forward.  I like to say I'm thinking about thinking about dating, but again, I don't know that I am in a place where I feel safe to open my heart again.  I guess it would be more apropo to talk about this if I was actually meeting people that I might I want to date.  Heck, I would be happy with a healthy friendship.  Looking for coaching and support, thanks.

[Mike-X]

Thank you for posting. Good for you for getting out there and making friends and dating. Good for you also for recognizing potential red flags and pausing to consider whether these relationships are right for you or not. I guess that I read everything that you posted as being positive.

The one exception was the 'feel safe to open my heart again' comment, especially when coupled with the love of love-bombing comment. I love opening my heart and love love-bombing too. However, I have learned from this relationship that I have to be very mindful of this and that I should be more cautious and guarded about 'opening my heart'. I love being in love and being vulnerable in a relationship. But love and trust are built with tests over time. Right?

[starshine]

Thanks for the validating and positively focused response, Mike-X. 

Yes, love and trust are built over time and what I've found myself in is a lifetime of dedicating lots (10 yrs plus) to intimate non-sexual relationships with more than a handful of women who display what I now recognize to be PD'd behavioral traits.  Along with my previous long term sexually intimate relationships with PD men.  It's breathtaking in it's scope.  Well, I guess I will learn more patience this lifetime.  I will say that I am seeing the red flags so much sooner in my friendship building, and it is easy to back out and reframe the relationship without getting myself too drawn into the drama. 

I find myself lonely sometimes, wishing a had a good core group of people that I could go out and do things with.  I go to the movies, hiking, and to live shows myself, and generally don't mind it.  It's just the occasional moment that I'm struck by how lonely my days are in comparison to when I was being love bombed and raising kids.  The flip side of that coin is that my daily life is, for the most part, drama free.  I suppose it's been the lack of daily drama in my life that has allowed me to really see how my friendships are chock-packed full with people who act mentally ill.  In a high functioning, subtle way that makes me feel like I'm the one with the problem... .I'm guessing that since that is what has been familiar to me that it is a really comfortable place to come back to.  Love bombing! Push/Pull! Gas Lighting! SIGN ME UP!    :'(

Two steps forward... .

[Mike-X]

I have had similar experiences in noticing PD traits in friends, family, and coworkers. I feel that it is mostly due to my eyes being opened through the relationship and my studying about BPD. I have also noticed how invalidating people can be in such subtle ways.

[Suzn]

I'm just lonely.  Sigh.

I'm sorry you're feeling lonely starshine.    I think we all go through this from time to time as life can be boring once we have freed ourselves of the drama of life with a pwpd. It's an awesome self realization however and looking for other ways to combat this feeling is progress.

Sometimes I think I should just give my life up to God, except I'm not religious.

You certainly don't have to be religious to look into your spirituality. There are many, many different higher powers. Where do you find wonder? What sits well with your soul? These aren't questions to answer for me but for yourself.

It's awesome that you feel comfortable to go do things alone. Have you looked in meetup.com? I joined several groups there and each have been fun. There have been times I've felt these activities just filled my time however I've found when I feel that way I'm not really living in the moment and I try to remind myself to "enjoy the moment, live in the now."

I think developing my own interests is what will bring like minded people into my life. This is not to say that I can't be friends with people with PDs, I can. I have many friends that exhibit BPD traits, one is diagnosed. I trust that I have learned some boundaries in my pursuit of my own behavior patterns, that being knowing I have codependent tendencies. I have had to practice my own perseverance for sure.

Are there any of your own interests you've not explored? I've thought about learning to play the drums, I've always thought that would be fun. I'm just trying to figure out how to not drive my neighbors crazy if I go with this one.    There was a meetup group in my area that use to get together to play the drums, like a jam session with only drums. I'm not sure if they still gather, they quit for a while but I thought that would be really fun to be a part of that.

[eeks]

I lost my draft reply because my login timed out, but the short version is, yes, I notice unhealthy dynamics in my friendships too.  And that these can be as much the raw material for self-awareness as intimate relationships are.

[patientandclear]

Starshine, I remember your story and am glad to "see" you again. I'm a similar period of time past the initial breakup of my BPD r/s and feel similarly lonely. The things people prescribe to fix that do not fix it for me, so I'm getting panicky about it. Advancing in age as a woman alone is weird complex experience no one prepared me for ... .

I am also finding my fears about it to cause me to be reluctant to draw lines where I should with my ex wBPD. He continues to try from time to time to occupy a role in my life that is awesome for him and not so great for me. Boundary enforcement around that feels like it continually costs me one of the closest most important r/ships in my life, and I feel huge ambivalence about doing what most people would consider healthy boundary setting with him for that reason. What I have left when I do feels pretty empty and, though I AM doing it, it feels like I'm saying no to intimacy for myself too, if that makes sense, because the alternative is honestly rather bleak. Sounds similar to the questions you're asking about some of your friends.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for posting this!

I have been pondering the statement "like attracts like". I realize that I tend to gravitate towards unhealthy people. I am not sure why. I think some of it has to do with the fact that I grew up thinking that unhealthy interactions and unhealthy relationships were pretty normal. I have to watch myself because, quite frankly, normal, healthy people can be rather boring. I grew up in a family where there was a lot of chaos. I am having to redefine my frame of reference. If your frame of reference is that unhealthy is normal, then to keep from getting too attached to unhealthy people, I have to answer the question of: "What is healthy? Whose definition of healthy am I using?"

I have come to the conclusion that everybody is a little bit crazy. What I have to do is find ways to protect myself, through boundaries, and decide how much crazy I am willing to tolerate. And, I have to work on not getting quite so attached to people. I am like the loyal little puppy dog. If you pat my head and give me a doggy treat, I just might follow you home. (I don't think I am that bad but I wanted to interject a bit of humor because the puppy analogy has occurred to me on a couple of occasions. Just because somebody gives me a pat on the head and a doggy treat, I don't need to follow them home and become their friend.)

[starshine]

Thanks Suzn, yes, I am pretty spiritual and generally do lots things to tap into that.  My brand of spiritualism is pretty vague, but I have a deep belief in the interconnectedness of everything.  I think in the moment that I wrote that, I was longing for a connection to something nameable and more specific. (Leftover from being raised Catholic, no doubt)  I have not tried any meet up groups, but I think now that it's Spring and it's a good time to start something new.  About a month after my last b/u I took a semester class in ASL.  I wanted to learn a new language, but didn't want to talk to anyone.  Lol!    I really loved the freedom of sentence structure in ASL.  Everything is about context.  Then about a year later I did take saxophone lessons.  It was fun and I enjoyed learning something new, but making time to practice between lessons was challenging for me to prioritize.  You should check out if there are any full moon drum circles in your area. 

eeks, this whole journey has been about self awareness!  I'm so much more aware of unhealthy dynamics.  I'm kinda like, "wow, has this relationship always been so toxic?" about so many relationships.  I struggle when I imagine that the answer is most likely yes, I just didn't have the tools to tell.

patientandclear: yes, hello again!    Oh gosh, I am so glad I went nc with my ex pronto.  It was really hard, and I still wish things had been different.  Like, it would have been so great if he didn't have such a devastating illness.  I can only imagine how difficult it would be for me to still have contact with him in any way- even living in the same town is more than I can bare on most days. 

VoC, I totally get what you're getting at.  The combination of learned unhealthy relationship patterns and being a helper/fixer type has generally attracted me towards people who are incapable of healthy relationships.  I find myself being ready, willing, and able to land myself in relationships with people who AREN'T ready, willing, or able to be in a relationship.  It's a bad combination, but one that I'm aware of now.  It's not just how much crazy I'm willing to tolerate, it's what kind of crazy.  I am in the process of getting to know a new friend, and already in a short time, I have talked her off the ledge (figuratively) what feels to be many times.  I'm thinking she's going to be a short hitter in my line-up, so she's staying on the bench for the big important plays.  And yes, I get the puppy analogy.  I feel like that too, like, if someone takes the time out to be nice and show me some attention, I'm just so starved for love and friendship that I tend follow a bit too. 

[Katy-Did]

Starshine,  count me in!  I relate so well to your initial post and the subsequent responses, I had to chime-in.  For a long time, I avoided trying to cultivate intimate friendships because of my fear of abandonment.  "Like 'em/Leave 'em" was my motto for a good, many years.  Yes, I married a person with BPD and remain so for over 20 years  but my social life is very limited (which, is the result of my own choices... .btw).  Every... .once... .in... .a... .while, I'll cross paths with someone who strikes a chord of camaraderie within and I'll try to cultivate a friendship.   "Like attracts like", as "Vortex of Confusion" so aptly stated.  Before too long, however, the helper/fixer is screaming to take over... .almost like an alter-ego.  It's very hard to resist and even harder to properly maintain with internal boundaries... .but I'm learning (and, I'm in my 50's!).  As of this date, I can say I have one spouse, one friend and a few acquaintances.  An improvement, indeed.  So please keep trying... .small moves.

P.S.  You mentioned getting a pet.  We have four weenie dogs and a cat.   My H and I often laugh that it takes that many lap animals to keep our "bubble in the middle".