Perenially Frustrated

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted here.  A lot has happened since then, including many, many good things.  First, I'm engaged to a wonderful woman who has been a huge support for me and for our children.  There is a "light" in our home, and I haven't ever seen my kids so happy.  Second, through various circumstances, my uBPDex has been "unable" to spend as much time with our children.  Third, our teenager no longer wants to live with or even be with her mom because she is fed up with her mom's cruel words, inability to listen, and manipulative behavior, such as how she inserts herself into our teenager's friendships and pits them against her (while, of course soliciting sympathy for what a "good mom" she is).  While this is sad and unfortunate, it is good that our teenager sees things for what they are, and I'm proud that they came to this decision for themselves.  I've been there to validate, validate, validate while not bad-mouthing mom.

Now onto the difficult part... .

First, I am drained from the endless drama with my ex.  The latest crisis is with our young-adult son.  He invited his mom to move in with him, allegedly to help pay rent because he lost his job.  As I anticipated, that turned into a total fiasco.  To make a long story short, our son has lost two jobs, punched holes in things, beat the crap out of his mom's car with his fists, and been experimenting with drugs and substance abuse again.  If course, I'm extremely concerned for him.  And this is the point of entry for my ex.  She will send me seemingly endless text messages about his latest misdeeds and rumors about drugs and suicide talk and what-not.  She will go on and on about how we didn't raise him like this and she is soo sad.  She'll call me to ask what she should do.  Obviously, there is room for real concern, though there is nothing I can actually do about what our son is doing other than talk with him and try to encourage him.  I tell my ex to just handle it, calling the cops if the law is being broken.  The dilemma is... .I want her to leave me alone.  I feel put in the middle of her and our son's drama again, but of course she couches it as "but he's your son... .I thought you would want to know, wouldn't you?"  I'm having difficult time discerning proper boundaries about this, because of course I would want to know if he was put in mental health lock-down at the hospital!

Second, a lingering issue that has been on my mind since I finally (praise God) left the crazy person I once called my wife is about child custody and parenting.  Our adult son is not an issue.  Our teenager has made up her mind.  But there is still our youngest, who is 8 years old.  I originally went with joint custody and 50/50 parenting time.  With the advice of my therapist, I knew that direct confrontation (such as with a custody battle) would only provoke my ex to fight more, drag out more drama, exploit our children, attempt more parental alienation, and lie more... .and who knows where that would lead.  When we divorced, she feared I would try to go after custody so she hamstrung me by lying to a judge and getting a restraining order on me.  When she is desperate, I would put NOTHING past her... .child abduction, reporting me for a crime I didn't commit, etc.  Plus, my therapist advised me that such conflict would be completely unnecessary, as she would find reasons to dump the kids on me so long as she didn't feel like I was against her.  She would want to go off and be selfish, and I would end up with the kids most of the time, anyway.  By and large, that is what has happened.  Even though the papers say 50/50, I've had them more like 60-70% of the time.  And the rest has more or less taken care of itself, such as with my teenager.

All that is fine, but I'm still concerned about my 8 year old.  She has grown SOO much emotionally since my fiancee and I got together.  She is doing so much better, especially because she has spent more time with me (because of the drama going on with her mom and our son at his apartment).  But when she goes over to her mom's, she comes back regressed again.  She comes back sometimes barely talking.  She comes back with a bad attitude.  She loves her mom, and she loves that her mommy does fun things with her (for now) and lets her sleep in the same bed with her.  However, she also knows that her mom is unreliable.  She almost cried to my fiancee (who works at her school) yesterday because she thought her mom wasn't going to show up for a mother-daughter tea party at the school.  Thankfully, her mom showed, but she knows how her mom is.  Each child had to stand up to the class and say something about their mom from a short questionnaire each child filled out.  She said, "My mom likes to relax by sleeping in bed alllll day long, every day."  I would have howled out loud laughing if I was there, and I would have loved to see the face on my ex when she busted her in front of everyone, but it is still sad.  It is no secret that her mom spends most of her time in bed, just like she has for years.  But now my daughter's older sister not around to take care of her, like she did before, I wonder who is caring for her when her mom is sleeping?  Probably her 22 year old boyfriend.  She says she plays on her tablet, waiting for her mom to wake up, but then it dies.  On top of this, I'm concerned for my daughter academically.  She is behind, and I'm certain a large part of it is that her mom almost never does homework with her, even when I ask her to.

So, I have many reasons to want to have the majority parenting time and something like full physical custody?.  My question for all of you is... .is it worth the conflict?  Is it worth kicking the hornet's nest?  Is it worth even disappointing your children (my daughter would miss her mom if she only got to see her once a week, for example)?  Is it worth the fact that, even if I got legal custody and 75% parenting time, that she would still have overnights with her mom... .where she would undoubtedly be lied to and subjected to parental alienation?  Yes, I know I could try to get supervised visitation through court, but from what my attorney told me it is very difficult to prove the kinds of things I want to prove, in order to get something that severe from a judge.  I have witnesses going back 10 years.  I have family friends, people we carpooled our children with to school every day, teachers, etc.  I have things I've journaled and written down.  I have evidence.  But still, I have my doubts (and fears) about what a judge would believe and about what would be accomplished to actually improve things.

I'm looking for any and all thoughts.  Do you understand my dilemma?  I want what is best for my daughter, but sometimes it feels like a matter of taking the lesser of two evils.  Thanks for reading... .

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted here.  A lot has happened since then, including many, many good things.  First, I'm engaged to a wonderful woman who has been a huge support for me and for our children.  There is a "light" in our home, and I haven't ever seen my kids so happy.  Second, through various circumstances, my uBPDex has been "unable" to spend as much time with our children.  Third, our teenager no longer wants to live with or even be with her mom because she is fed up with her mom's cruel words, inability to listen, and manipulative behavior, such as how she inserts herself into our teenager's friendships and pits them against her (while, of course soliciting sympathy for what a "good mom" she is).  While this is sad and unfortunate, it is good that our teenager sees things for what they are, and I'm proud that they came to this decision for themselves.  I've been there to validate, validate, validate while not bad-mouthing mom.

Now onto the difficult part... .

First, I am drained from the endless drama with my ex.  The latest crisis is with our young-adult son.  He invited his mom to move in with him, allegedly to help pay rent because he lost his job.  As I anticipated, that turned into a total fiasco.  To make a long story short, our son has lost two jobs, punched holes in things, beat the crap out of his mom's car with his fists, and been experimenting with drugs and substance abuse again.  If course, I'm extremely concerned for him.  And this is the point of entry for my ex.  She will send me seemingly endless text messages about his latest misdeeds and rumors about drugs and suicide talk and what-not.  She will go on and on about how we didn't raise him like this and she is soo sad.  She'll call me to ask what she should do.  Obviously, there is room for real concern, though there is nothing I can actually do about what our son is doing other than talk with him and try to encourage him.  I tell my ex to just handle it, calling the cops if the law is being broken.  The dilemma is... .I want her to leave me alone.  I feel put in the middle of her and our son's drama again, but of course she couches it as "but he's your son... .I thought you would want to know, wouldn't you?"  I'm having difficult time discerning proper boundaries about this, because of course I would want to know if he was put in mental health lock-down at the hospital!

Second, a lingering issue that has been on my mind since I finally (praise God) left the crazy person I once called my wife is about child custody and parenting.  Our adult son is not an issue.  Our teenager has made up her mind.  But there is still our youngest, who is 8 years old.  I originally went with joint custody and 50/50 parenting time.  With the advice of my therapist, I knew that direct confrontation (such as with a custody battle) would only provoke my ex to fight more, drag out more drama, exploit our children, attempt more parental alienation, and lie more... .and who knows where that would lead.  When we divorced, she feared I would try to go after custody so she hamstrung me by lying to a judge and getting a restraining order on me.  When she is desperate, I would put NOTHING past her... .child abduction, reporting me for a crime I didn't commit, etc.  Plus, my therapist advised me that such conflict would be completely unnecessary, as she would find reasons to dump the kids on me so long as she didn't feel like I was against her.  She would want to go off and be selfish, and I would end up with the kids most of the time, anyway.  By and large, that is what has happened.  Even though the papers say 50/50, I've had them more like 60-70% of the time.  And the rest has more or less taken care of itself, such as with my teenager.

All that is fine, but I'm still concerned about my 8 year old.  She has grown SOO much emotionally since my fiancee and I got together.  She is doing so much better, especially because she has spent more time with me (because of the drama going on with her mom and our son at his apartment).  But when she goes over to her mom's, she comes back regressed again.  She comes back sometimes barely talking.  She comes back with a bad attitude.  She loves her mom, and she loves that her mommy does fun things with her (for now) and lets her sleep in the same bed with her.  However, she also knows that her mom is unreliable.  She almost cried to my fiancee (who works at her school) yesterday because she thought her mom wasn't going to show up for a mother-daughter tea party at the school.  Thankfully, her mom showed, but she knows how her mom is.  Each child had to stand up to the class and say something about their mom from a short questionnaire each child filled out.  She said, "My mom likes to relax by sleeping in bed alllll day long, every day."  I would have howled out loud laughing if I was there, and I would have loved to see the face on my ex when she busted her in front of everyone, but it is still sad.  It is no secret that her mom spends most of her time in bed, just like she has for years.  But now my daughter's older sister not around to take care of her, like she did before, I wonder who is caring for her when her mom is sleeping?  Probably her 22 year old boyfriend.  She says she plays on her tablet, waiting for her mom to wake up, but then it dies.  On top of this, I'm concerned for my daughter academically.  She is behind, and I'm certain a large part of it is that her mom almost never does homework with her, even when I ask her to.

So, I have many reasons to want to have the majority parenting time and something like full physical custody?.  My question for all of you is... .is it worth the conflict?  Is it worth kicking the hornet's nest?  Is it worth even disappointing your children (my daughter would miss her mom if she only got to see her once a week, for example)?  Is it worth the fact that, even if I got legal custody and 75% parenting time, that she would still have overnights with her mom... .where she would undoubtedly be lied to and subjected to parental alienation?  Yes, I know I could try to get supervised visitation through court, but from what my attorney told me it is very difficult to prove the kinds of things I want to prove, in order to get something that severe from a judge.  I have witnesses going back 10 years.  I have family friends, people we carpooled our children with to school every day, teachers, etc.  I have things I've journaled and written down.  I have evidence.  But still, I have my doubts (and fears) about what a judge would believe and about what would be accomplished to actually improve things.

I'm looking for any and all thoughts.  Do you understand my dilemma?  I want what is best for my daughter, but sometimes it feels like a matter of taking the lesser of two evils.  Thanks for reading... .

[livednlearned]

Hi OutOfEgypt,

Congratulations on finding a stable, solid partner, and the many improvements in your life, including the upcoming nuptials 

I completely understand your dilemma. Our families, even when they are doing better than average, still tend to be fragile. It's mental illness, the real deal. Not an easy row to hoe.

It sounds like your therapist's prediction about your ex have turned out to be accurate. It's also interesting that your teenage D sees how things are. Does she have a similar temperament to her younger sister, D8?

Is your biggest concern the academic part, or are there any behavioral issues you are worried about?

My experience with court is that it can certainly make things worse, although for many of us, it's not negotiable and there is no other recourse.

There may be other solutions that could be brainstormed around the academic piece, depending on your situation. When you praise your ex or feed her narcissistic supply, or help make her feel heard, does her behavior get better? For example, "I notice D seems to have a lot of potential academically, a real chip off the ol' block, altho strangely her grades are low. Do you have any solutions for how we can get someone to notice her abilities?"

Not exactly that, but something like it. A way to make it sound like "we" are working on this together, and D is special in some way (how weird that the school doesn't seem to reflect this in her grades), and then ask for BPD ex to propose a solution. It works best if she feels like it's her idea, although this is a skill to be able to do this well.

In other words, there may be some in-between solutions, all the while keep documenting things. You may want to show homework + grades when D is with you, and document homework + grades when D is with her mom. Develop a close relationship with the school, and get to know the teacher. Or the family specialist if your D's school has one. They tend to be social workers and deal with the families who lack skills, and as sad as it is, your situation is probably not the worst they will see.

Certainly, you can go for custody if you feel D is endangered. Ask your L about the judge, what he/she is like. This makes a huge different. My L's strategy was very influenced by this. A new judge rotated on the bench during my very first hearing and my L was practically skipping down the hall when she told me. Other judges can be more/less biased or run their court room so tightly bound to legal technicalities and precedent that it feels like there's no common sense or real judgment going on.

About your older son -- does he talk to you or reach out? If your ex was not focused on him, would she fire up more negative engagement over the other kids?

[rarsweet]

Am I understanding it right? That your 8 year old is going to a house with an unstable mother, her 22 year old boyfriend, and her adult brother who is doing drugs and violent?

[OutOfEgypt]

livednlearned,

Thank you for your reply.  I actually try to do a lot of the things you suggested.  Even though it is completely uncomfortable, almost freakishly so, I do know that my ex responds much better when I treat her like a "normal" person, almost friendly, like we're "working together."  this has been hard for my ex to understand, but I explain how it lessens conflict and drama and actually paints less of a target on us and on the kids.  However, it also means dealing with uncomfortable communication and ridiculous things like her telling me how I "devalued her as a human being" because of how I failed to do a formal introduction while introducing her to my fiancee 6 months ago.  *smacks forehead*  The other difficulty is that a lot of people don't get it.  "Why are you being so nice to her?  She's a psycho!  Why don't you just take her to court and get those kids taken away from her?"  Hard to explain to people, but it's like I can't win.  I just want peace.  But when I do things to keep peace with my crazy ex, I get flack from others about why I'm being "so nice."  They don't get it.  But it does make me wonder if maybe I don't have to put up with that any more.  However, we both know that pursuing a court solution would indeed make things bad for a long, long while, even if I won.  I would never hear the end of it.  And who knows what she would do to "remedy" things.

My biggest concern for D8 is pretty much all around.  She is behind emotionally and academically.  She also is, temperament-wise, much more like her mother than D15, who is almost exactly like me.  That is a concern, as well.  I'm hoping that consistent discipline and secure attachments in my household will curb her from becoming the selfish, self-absorbed, manipulative, neglectful monster her mother is.  Her mom dotes on her because she is little and cute, a "mini-me" she calls her (scary), but her mom is not stable at all.  She has bounced from place to place and no longer has a job, living solely on the spousal support and child support that I give her.

To answer rarsweet, these things aren't happening with our son while D8 is there.  She has told me that her brother "yells" sometimes, but from what I gather she hasn't been exposed to too much.  Our son no longer lives there.  My ex is smart enough to know how bad it would look for D8 to be around that, so for about 6 weeks she only took her 2 nights a week, allegedly when our son wasn't around or wasn't causing problems.

I have to talk to a L anyway, so I will see what they say. I wish the right answer was more clear-cut.  What I really want to do is make sure my D8 is living in a stable home where she can grow emotionally and academically and not fall through the cracks and feel like a loser like her older brother does.  He does reach out to me, but really when he needs something like money or food because he lost another job.  He comes over for holidays, or to complain about how his mother stole his house from him and manipulated his friends against him, but other than that he's still always chasing after his mother.  Sad.

What I would REALLY like is to have D8 live with me 100% of the time, going out to the park with her mom or spending a few overnights here or there with her mom on occasion.  I would like her mom to not give me or D8 any problems about it, and I would like her mom to not try to manipulate and alienate her from me, her siblings, and my fiancee.  I would like her mom to get a job and have a cute little house that is drama-free and loser-free.  But that's not reality, now, is it?

[livednlearned]

The other difficulty is that a lot of people don't get it.  "Why are you being so nice to her?  She's a psycho!  Why don't you just take her to court and get those kids taken away from her?"  Hard to explain to people, but it's like I can't win.

Oof! I really really really understand this! I think a lot of "normal" people deal in binaries when it comes to conflict. I did too. So either you are being too nice, or you take a full-on shark tank aggressive approach. When you deal with a high-conflict person, there is a middle way, and it takes a lot of skill, and sometimes I felt really irritated that I had to be two grown-ups, and he didn't have to be one at all. At the end of the day, though, it made things better for my son, and better for me. Other people don't understand probably because they've never had to think of conflict the way we do, so they don't develop the model that conflict is not just "being nice to them" or "carrying a big stick."

The variables in my case that led me to court is that my son seems to be relatively fragile, emotionally and psychologically speaking. And ex was an alcoholic and honestly, I don't think he wanted to see S13, and I say that because he sure worked hard to document all the reasons he should lose custody. That, plus all the other things that made me feel I could get full custody (good lawyer, good judge, etc.), made it worthwhile. Court is awful if it turns into a protracted battle. I'm not kidding when I say I feel PTSD just going to court. I literally shake when I'm in the court room. I've been taking mindfulness-based stress reduction classes to help me with it.  

My biggest concern for D8 is pretty much all around.  She is behind emotionally and academically.  She also is, temperament-wise, much more like her mother than D15, who is almost exactly like me.  That is a concern, as well.  I'm hoping that consistent discipline and secure attachments in my household will curb her from becoming the selfish, self-absorbed, manipulative, neglectful monster her mother is.  Her mom dotes on her because she is little and cute, a "mini-me" she calls her (scary), but her mom is not stable at all.  She has bounced from place to place and no longer has a job, living solely on the spousal support and child support that I give her.

Same with my son. His temperament is like his dad's. Although not as hardened. You mention "secure attachments" which is what I'm trying to cultivate in my son too.

What I would REALLY like is to have D8 live with me 100% of the time, going out to the park with her mom or spending a few overnights here or there with her mom on occasion.  I would like her mom to not give me or D8 any problems about it, and I would like her mom to not try to manipulate and alienate her from me, her siblings, and my fiancee.  I would like her mom to get a job and have a cute little house that is drama-free and loser-free.  But that's not reality, now, is it?

I have S13 100% right now, and to be honest, there are still legacy issues -- not seeing your parent because they are mentally ill is in some ways, from a child development perspective, a toss up. S13 is very guarded, almost avoidant attachment style, and I'm hoping therapy 1x a week will help him.

Not that I wish it was back to the old schedule. What came out during the transition to full custody/visitation is just how savvy S13 was. He was trying to negotiate this impossible gauntlet, and didn't talk about what he thought or felt until N/BPDx was out of his life. I underestimated just how smart that kid was. In some ways, he has an impeccable radar for ulterior motives and hidden agendas. What I'm not liking is that he chooses to deal with those people by breaking contact. Something his dad would do.

It's complicated.  

I would consult with a couple of lawyers to see what you hear. It's worth it. Sometimes lawyers will offer a strategy based solely on their strengths, or their past experience. For example, my L has really good trial skills. She knows how to get up in court and tell it right. Not all lawyers are good at that, so they may propose a strategy that is much more focused on haggling behind the scenes with the other lawyer.

We were in court one time and another lawyer said hi. After she left, L whispered to me that the person was a good lawyer in terms of attention to detail and coming up with smart proposals, the usual back and forth in low-conflict cases, but awful in court. At one point, the L even asked my L to step outside the court room to ask her a procedural point   right in the middle of the hearing!

It's good to hear from as many as you can reasonably afford. Eeny meeny miny mo.

[OutOfEgypt]

Oops, I wrote:

I actually try to do a lot of the things you suggested.  Even though it is completely uncomfortable, almost freakishly so, I do know that my ex responds much better when I treat her like a "normal" person, almost friendly, like we're "working together."  this has been hard for my ex to understand, but I explain how it lessens conflict and drama and actually paints less of a target on us and on the kids.

I meant, "This has been hard for my fiancee to understand... ."  

Thank you for validating my struggle, though.  Sometimes I get stuck in wondering that everybody else is right and I'm just spinning my wheels making it more difficult than it needs to be.  Thank you for validating that there is true validity in taking this approach, even if there are eventual limits to it.

[livednlearned]

I wish it was an easy decision. My recommendation is to keep gathering information -- whether it's a therapist for your D, staying in close contact with the teacher at school, talking to lawyers, running things by people here. Keep all your paths open. It helps keep you ready if you see things running off the rails, like your D starts to seriously fail.

Meanwhile, what about seeing if you can get your ex to suggest an afterschool tutor for D?