Planning ahead to neutralize Mom's ammo

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So here’s where DH is at in the legal process, just for some background:

Met with Lawyer A, who seems empathetic/empowering and is very organized. Lawyer A will work with DH on an hourly basis up until things go to trial, and is willing to give Mom the “You can do this the easy way or the hard way” talk, via letter or (possibly) in person.

Met with our counselor, who also has a relationship with Mom & Stepdad. Counselor more than willing to go to bat for DH in telling Mom that it’s in everyone’s best interest for her to sign a PP/work together with DH now rather than in court. We think Counselor is meeting w/ Mom & Stepdad sometime this week.

DH gave kiddos the heads-up about working on the schedule with Mom. Neither one protested/went down the “We already have enough time with you” route; rather, SD7 mentioned already having experienced Mom’s stress, and SD9 just kind of hid inside her hoodie. Poor kids. DH didn’t keep pushing them to talk about it, so hopefully even though there wasn’t much dialogue, if something comes up, DH can say “Remember when I talked to you when we were doing X”, and that’ll help.

Met with Lawyer B yesterday. LB less organized/articulate than LA, but also $100/hr less. Also empathetic & willing to do one-off work on PP for us.

Soo… with all those pieces in place, it kind of feels like we’re just waiting for the shoe to drop, in terms of Mom getting the straight dope from Counselor and then getting really triggered. I guess there’s a 5% chance she’ll actually listen to Counselor, but better plan for the worst, I guess. Part of “the worst” that DH is pretty concerned about, and that he’s given me the OK to ask about on here, is this – DH was abused as a minor, and took that out on another minor. He got counseling as a minor where all that came out, and it hasn’t happened since. His ex (the kids’ mom) knew about this before they got married and had kids. DH’s concern is that Mom is gonna trot that out in court (if it goes there) to “prove” that DH is an unfit parent.

Has anyone else experienced that? How seriously did the court/judge take it? I mean, on the one hand, I get that it’d just be Mom making herself look bad (“You knew about his past but still decided he was father material not once, but twice”), but on the other hand, DH & I both worry about that info getting back to the kids. I think Mom has kept it from them so far, but if she gets majorly triggered by DH setting this PP boundary, I wonder if her impulse control is gonna go out the window. So, even though this is the legal board, a corollary question is how to help the kids if Mom tells them about DH’s past.

[kells76]

So here’s where DH is at in the legal process, just for some background:

Met with Lawyer A, who seems empathetic/empowering and is very organized. Lawyer A will work with DH on an hourly basis up until things go to trial, and is willing to give Mom the “You can do this the easy way or the hard way” talk, via letter or (possibly) in person.

Met with our counselor, who also has a relationship with Mom & Stepdad. Counselor more than willing to go to bat for DH in telling Mom that it’s in everyone’s best interest for her to sign a PP/work together with DH now rather than in court. We think Counselor is meeting w/ Mom & Stepdad sometime this week.

DH gave kiddos the heads-up about working on the schedule with Mom. Neither one protested/went down the “We already have enough time with you” route; rather, SD7 mentioned already having experienced Mom’s stress, and SD9 just kind of hid inside her hoodie. Poor kids. DH didn’t keep pushing them to talk about it, so hopefully even though there wasn’t much dialogue, if something comes up, DH can say “Remember when I talked to you when we were doing X”, and that’ll help.

Met with Lawyer B yesterday. LB less organized/articulate than LA, but also $100/hr less. Also empathetic & willing to do one-off work on PP for us.

Soo… with all those pieces in place, it kind of feels like we’re just waiting for the shoe to drop, in terms of Mom getting the straight dope from Counselor and then getting really triggered. I guess there’s a 5% chance she’ll actually listen to Counselor, but better plan for the worst, I guess. Part of “the worst” that DH is pretty concerned about, and that he’s given me the OK to ask about on here, is this – DH was abused as a minor, and took that out on another minor. He got counseling as a minor where all that came out, and it hasn’t happened since. His ex (the kids’ mom) knew about this before they got married and had kids. DH’s concern is that Mom is gonna trot that out in court (if it goes there) to “prove” that DH is an unfit parent.

Has anyone else experienced that? How seriously did the court/judge take it? I mean, on the one hand, I get that it’d just be Mom making herself look bad (“You knew about his past but still decided he was father material not once, but twice”), but on the other hand, DH & I both worry about that info getting back to the kids. I think Mom has kept it from them so far, but if she gets majorly triggered by DH setting this PP boundary, I wonder if her impulse control is gonna go out the window. So, even though this is the legal board, a corollary question is how to help the kids if Mom tells them about DH’s past.

[bravhart1]

Wow that's so sad that something your DH did as a child still has the power to haunt him all this time later as an adult.  Please reassure your husband that reasonable adults hearing about this won't jump to judgement, he is forgiven 

If his ex uses this, then I would bring out both barrels to show she is the one with poor skills to parent by exposing this.

I will say this, hope it helps... .My DH's ex had foster children prior to becoming a parent with my DH and she had them taken away from her for abuse. Not only did the court never say to DH " and you had a baby with her after that?"   But they did not take in into account as proof of her ability now to parent and it was only seven years ago, her child is six. She never got any "help" for this by way of therapy etc.

She went the route of dragging up some poor behavior my DH had as long as twenty years ago which is also in court records ( alcohol related, which he did get help for) and no one cared about that either. They seem pretty stuck on the last year going forward.  

So I would sleep soundly, and put it behind you. If she brings it up I'd respond with disgust that she tried to dredge up such a painful memory to win her case proving she has no boundaries or empathy.

[Deb]

My SD's ex (probably NPD) tried to cause my SD trouble for something that happened when she was a juvenile. He called the police and CPS on her. SHe was made to go to the police station to be interviewed. And the police and CPS caseworker BOTH said "What the heck? You were a kid!" Well, that was the gist of it. And nothing else was said about it. This was in North Carolina. Oh, and had he pursued it further, she had evidence of things HE did that were way way worse. And he did those things as an adult. 

[ForeverDad]

What happened years ago as a minor should have no reflection on him today.  He's had years to prove himself as a responsible adult.  Besides, aren't juvenile records sealed or legally inactionable once adults?

As I'm sure you're aware, the children have no voice in the parenting arrangements.  Yes, counselors or evaluators may talk with them, But The Decisions Are Not Up To The Kids.  Kids, especially before their teen years when their wishes might be taken into account, should never be put in the middle.

[david]

My ex used serious alienation tactics against me with our boys. Anytime they questioned something back then I simply told them that the judge put it in the order and I was required to follow it. Ex used to bribe our youngest with candy, etc to tell me he wanted to stay with mom. He was under 5 at the time.

[kells76]

(Starting off with a side note to FD & david: Oh yeah, we are aware that the kids oughtn't have a choice in following the schedule. It's taken DH this long to recover from the FOG to start having boundaries there. Up until now Mom's mantra has been that the kids "always have a choice/voice" in spending time with DH. Of course, now that they're not always protesting spending time w/ DH [due to his not pushing the issue with the kids], she's switching to saying that they'll have a say in things "when they're old enough to choose"    Hopefully the foundation that DH laid as not being the parent to pressure the kids to spend time with him will help as more boundaries are set in the future.)

Thank you guys for the reassurance about the juvi stuff. It helps knowing that Mom can't legally use it and that ultimately it'll make her look bad. It's still tough knowing that she'll probably go there, though. We think her tactic, if it goes to court, will be to allege that DH is an unfit parent because he's emotionally traumatic for the kids to be around. She'll probably even drop the a-word (abusive). David (and others), I know you've had some of that thrown at you -- how seriously did the court/judge take allegations of emotional abuse?

[ForeverDad]

Her about me?  I did get investigated by CPS a few times, always about our child, but over time she lost a lot of credibility.  I recall that the Change of Circumstances decision noted some of her testimony was "not credible", subdued courtspeak for Liar.  It then logged her allegation that I'd choked her in the past - first time I heard of it! - and finished by granting my CoC motion, paving the way for me to get full custody a few months later.  Duh, no one even bothered to quiz me about that lie, it was simply noted and then ignored.

The agencies all got more involved when she alleged child abuse.  That is a hot button for agencies.  (So is DV but it has less effect on custody and parenting unless it puts the children at risk.)  I exaggerate just a little when I write here that "they keep responding because maybe on the 101st time there might be a piece of truth to it." :'(

Hmm, ask the lawyer but I think if she brings it up in testimony then L will jump up objecting and maybe even ask that her reference be stricken from the record.

[david]

I went to jail for 2 weeks because ex accused me of assault. It was after that incident that I went to court for more custodial time. It was never an issue in court and I succeeded in getting more time with our boys during the school year. I had overwhelming evidence to show I was helping them with their school work considerably more than their mom.

[enlighten me]

As I'm sure you're aware, the children have no voice in the parenting arrangements.  Yes, counselors or evaluators may talk with them, But The Decisions Are Not Up To The Kids.  Kids, especially before their teen years when their wishes might be taken into account, should never be put in the middle.

Id jut like to add to this for the benefit of anyone reading in the UK. At the age of twelve a child can decide where they want to live and this has to be taken into account/ backed. My boys are living with me even though their mum was the resident parent post divorce. There is nothing that she can do about this under UK law as it is their choice.

[livednlearned]

DH was abused as a minor, and took that out on another minor. He got counseling as a minor where all that came out, and it hasn’t happened since. His ex (the kids’ mom) knew about this before they got married and had kids. DH’s concern is that Mom is gonna trot that out in court (if it goes there) to “prove” that DH is an unfit parent.

Has anyone else experienced that? How seriously did the court/judge take it? I mean, on the one hand, I get that it’d just be Mom making herself look bad (“You knew about his past but still decided he was father material not once, but twice”), but on the other hand, DH & I both worry about that info getting back to the kids.

Hi kells76,

In my experience, a good lawyer will object whenever something considered unrelated is brought up, like the thing with your DH. A good judge will sustain the objections. In some courts, the judge won't listen to stuff that is older than 6 months. My judge also wouldn't listen to anything that had already been tried in another hearing. One of the things you're paying for when you hire a lawyer is their knowledge and understanding of the judge. What do both lawyers say about the judge in your case? Just in case it goes that far, it's good information to know.

It's probably likely that biomom will tell the kids something, if she hasn't already. My T's advice to me was to always ask S14 how he felt about the things his dad told him. And then later, once we had sorted through his feelings, to set the record straight (whatever that might mean). S14 is a perceptive kid and more often than not when I asked him what he believed to be true, he was spot on, so this part was relatively easy.

If I had to summarize how S14 sees his parents, it's: "BPD dad tells me what I'm supposed to feel and think" and "mom asks me how I feel and what I think."

[kells76]

Hey, thanks y'all... .

Ok, so it sounds like DH should give L a heads up on this aspect of his past, so that if things go to court/chambers/whatever place Mom could spring this with L around, L will be ready to object/disregard.

I think the rest of Mom's ammo will fall into 2 categories:

1. Stuff that falls within normal parenting failures (DH left kids alone in car to run an errand, DH missed X game/meet, DH got angry with SD7, DH spanked SD9 when she was 6... .)

2. Nebulous stuff about DH being "emotionally traumatic" for girls to be around -- ie his very being is inadequate and hurtful as a parent.

I seem to remember one poster on the coparenting board who forgot the car seats once, and I think his ex was planning to nail him on it. He got the advice to acknowledge the failure AND say how he learned to not do it again (put reminder note in car). That seems like good jiu jitsu for #1. But what about Mom bringing up the vague stuff? Would it be worth it for DH to call her bluff in court by... .asking for psych evals for both of them? Requesting therapy for kiddos? Asking for evidence/proof? How have you guys dealt with standing up for the truth against that BPD jello?

[livednlearned]

How have you guys dealt with standing up for the truth against that BPD jello?

If your H has a lot of solid proof or evidence, then her jello is more likely to look like a distressed mama grasping at straws.

If your H doesn't have a lot of solid proof or evidence, then her jello might stick a bit. In that case, your idea to propose a solution is excellent! Have the L suggest that both parents take a psych eval or whatnot, and then be sure to get very involved in picking the CE. And definitely have your L be the one to write up the judgment (this is usually treated like a polite courtesy/professional thing where the Ls will offer, as though it's no big thing, even though in BPD land, it is a big thing... .)

I'm not an L, and only have my case to go by, but from what you've written, it sounds like there will be some serious knuckle rapping in bio mom's future. She has had a good run calling the shots with no good reason, and now your H is simply asking for what is fair. If he goes in with some reasonable solutions and admits mistakes that he has since corrected, looking like the world's most reasonable guy, hopefully the mudslinging jello tactics will just be unpleasant to hear and nothing more.

He might get a dressing down for letting things go this far, so be prepared for a lecture! I won almost every hearing, and yet received the lion's share of lecturing 

[david]

Stuff that falls within normal parenting failures

DH left kids in car... If he only did it once it is not a big deal. You are allowed to make mistakes. Doing something like that on a regular basis is more concerning for the courts.

DH missed a game... I avoided anywhere ex was in the beginning because I was concerned for my safety.

DH spanked S9 when she was 6... That happened a long time ago. Courts usually look at the last 6 months. If there was a pattern of spanking then that would be a different story.

Going to court used to be stressful for me and I was very nervous on the stand. I couldn't think straight and oftentimes couldn't remember particular things that were brought up. Once I became more comfortable I was much better on the stand.

Ex had the same atty for 5 years. She actually said thing sin her questions to me that were not true and I answered them as if they were. She tripped me up a lot in the beginning. After I got comfortable she continued using the same tactics. I was better prepared and she couldn't rattle me anymore. Things went much better after that.

Having concrete evidence makes all the difference. Also, making sure it is introduced as evidence is very important. It takes time because both parties need a copy and so does the judge. Everyone gets time to look at it and object. They then give it a identification number or letter. A judge is required to make their ruling based on the evidence. Printed material holds more weight than verbal testimony. Judges can't easily disregard it because that would lead to retrials, challenges, whatever the legal maneuvers and the judges decision can be overturned. Judges don't like that since it makes them look bad. Once I realized that I made sure my atty understood I wanted all my evidence introduced. Since that time things have gone very well for the kids and me in court.

[ForeverDad]

Having concrete evidence makes all the difference. Also, making sure it is introduced as evidence is very important. It takes time because both parties need a copy and so does the judge. Everyone gets time to look at it and object. They then give it a identification number or letter. A judge is required to make their ruling based on the evidence. Printed material holds more weight than verbal testimony. Judges can't easily disregard it because that would lead to retrials, challenges, whatever the legal maneuvers and the judges decision can be overturned. Judges don't like that since it makes them look bad. Once I realized that I made sure my atty understood I wanted all my evidence introduced. Since that time things have gone very well for the kids and me in court.

I agree fully with this.  I always got the impression that court and lawyers wanted to 'wing it', keep documents to a minimum and failed to encourage documents and testimony.  Then if someone objected, sought reconsideration or appealed, it all would revolve around the evidence already on record, not additional information.