Is it true? Not all Narcisstics are Borderline but all borderlines are narcissist

[Itstopsnow]

I read that not all Narcissists are borderline but all borderlines are narcissitic . They have a deep longer to be the center of attention . Even if they come across mild manner and socially awkward. They have deep selfishness and self centeredness . They have a deep lack of empathy bc looking at others pain doesn't register next to their own. So they may have empathy but it's not at the adult level you or I can experience. And usually only when they can relate to what someone went through personally. They have deep entitlement issues despite the fact that they have low esteem and self worth. They are a walking contradiction. Hence why they have no true sense of self. Their ID is higher charged! That's why they seem so exciting to date. They are usually ready and up for any adventure, or trip. What better way to get outside yourself. They are super implusive because of their selfishness and because of their Anxieties and fears. These are just some of the traits of a classic borderline. Most have comorbid traits. Mine was also a deep dependent (waif) leaning on his mom or me or family so much even for simple decisions. But still would rage and get super nasty. Part of the narcissitic self in him.  These people do know right from wrong, and societies standards . They also could get treatment. But they prefer acting out because as much as they may be hurting or we may think they are hurting . Part of them loves the rush! Of endorphines they get when they cheat, lie and manipulate . They feel power, a sense of self, strong and in control over you and the situations in their life. It's an illusion but they are quite happy with it. It's really sad but don't feel too bad for them. Bc their total lack of loyalty and shameful disregard is done on purpose. They know what they are doing, they just don't care enough. They compartmentalize, and they  feel again entitled to have you and now their other love interest. This is Part of their constitutional make up bc of the illness but part is they enjoy the rush, like an addict . Getting away with things are fun until they get caught. Then they are horrible people. Please they would keep doing it and take all their lies to the grave bc it doesn't bother them that much as long as it serves them. They are fine living like this. That is why many don't get treated.

[Kelli Cornett]

BPD are not narc. Mainly because they can feel real emotion.

[cosmonaut]

No.  This is incorrect.  There is some overlap since they are both cluster B personality disorders, but there are distinct and different pathologies at work.  This is why they are clinically classified as different disorders.  Let me see if I can explain better the distinction.  Both involve a failure to form a true self.

pwNPD have a hyperinflated false self.  They have constructed a grandiose false self to protect themselves from the inferiority they feel at a core level.  The pain of that inferiority is what drives the creation and maintaining of their false self.  The need for the admiration, attention, or pity of others is what they crave to sustain the false self.  pwNPD don't mirror - they project a false, but very strong self.  Their greatest fear is the fear of being unmasked as the inferior person they feel at their deepest level.

pwBPD on the other hand have a barely formed self at all.  They have a profound feeling of brokenness and emptiness as a result. There is a feeling of tremendous shame at this failure to become a fully formed self.  They seek attachment to others in order to borrow the self of the attachment.  This is deeply soothing and allows the pwBPD to depend on the attachment to provide refuge from the storms of overwhelming emotion they experience.  This is also why some pwBPD have very fluid identities and readily engage in mirroring of the attachment.  The deepest fears of a pwBPD are abandonment by the attachment or engulfment by the attachment.  Both fears are a product of not having an independent, fully developed self - a true self.

Edit:  James Masterson M.D., among others, have written extensively about the failure to form a true self and personality disorders.  You could read some of these books if you are interested.  They will provide far more context and information than I can.

[Itstopsnow]

The book I read on BPD said that there are definite Narcisstics traits in them. I saw them in mine, but not fully where he thought highly of himself. He had low self esteem and he played the victim and pity card often. But then he would be completely selfish, entitled, self absorbed, and wanting to do what he wanted to do regardless. Maybe some of the traits are comorbid . I wouldn't say he was a full blown Narcisstic but he definitely had attributes of one

[cosmonaut]

There can be comorbidity.  Perhaps that is what you mean.  They are, however, distinct disorders.  Not every pwBPD also have NPD, nor vice versa.  If the book you read stated otherwise, it is in error.

[Aussie0zborn]

Well written. I totally agree with the OP.

[cosmonaut]

Well written. I totally agree with the OP.

Which is proof of exactly nothing.  What I've stated are the clinically recognized distinctions.  You know what they say about how you can lead a horse to water.

[Kelli Cornett]

The OP's information is inaccurate.

[troisette]

I was told by a specialist, that some BPDs have "narcissistic tendencies" - I believe this to be associated with the sub group they may belong to.

They may not have sufficient indicators to be diagnosed as Narcissists but have some co-morbidity.

"Narcissist" is a term often used nowadays to describe a self-centred person. NPD is a serious disorder with its own sub groups; not all self-absorbed, vain or selfish people are narcissistic. It's more complex.

[Itstopsnow]

Sorry I guess I was wrong . I read it in a book on borderlines. I think many therapists have different opinions when it comes to borderlines or treating them. Many actually won't deal with them. I still think a lot have traits of Narcisstic not all but a lot from what I read on this forum. They are very selfish and not much regard for us. And what they want supersedes anything we want. Those are traits of being Narcisstic 

[cosmonaut]

Don't worry about it, Itstopsnow.  There is a lot of misinformation out there about BPD.  It sounds like the author of the book you read made a mistake.  It's not your fault.  I just wanted to clear up the confusion.

There is a very good list of books on the site that have been reviewed by the staff here.  They would be great resources if you would like to learn more about BPD.  I've read a few of them and they really helped me to better understand the disorder.

[Fr4nz]

The title is false, BPDs are NOT NPDs!

There may be comorbidity (especially in men), but the title statement is absolutely wrong.

[Bianca]

I read that not all Narcissists are borderline but all borderlines are narcissitic . They have a deep longer to be the center of attention . Even if they come across mild manner and socially awkward. They have deep selfishness and self centeredness . They have a deep lack of empathy bc looking at others pain doesn't register next to their own. So they may have empathy but it's not at the adult level you or I can experience. And usually only when they can relate to what someone went through personally. They have deep entitlement issues despite the fact that they have low esteem and self worth. They are a walking contradiction. Hence why they have no true sense of self. Their ID is higher charged! That's why they seem so exciting to date. They are usually ready and up for any adventure, or trip. What better way to get outside yourself. They are super implusive because of their selfishness and because of their Anxieties and fears. These are just some of the traits of a classic borderline. Most have comorbid traits. Mine was also a deep dependent (waif) leaning on his mom or me or family so much even for simple decisions. But still would rage and get super nasty. Part of the narcissitic self in him.  These people do know right from wrong, and societies standards . They also could get treatment. But they prefer acting out because as much as they may be hurting or we may think they are hurting . Part of them loves the rush! Of endorphines they get when they cheat, lie and manipulate . They feel power, a sense of self, strong and in control over you and the situations in their life. It's an illusion but they are quite happy with it. It's really sad but don't feel too bad for them. Bc their total lack of loyalty and shameful disregard is done on purpose. They know what they are doing, they just don't care enough. They compartmentalize, and they  feel again entitled to have you and now their other love interest. This is Part of their constitutional make up bc of the illness but part is they enjoy the rush, like an addict . Getting away with things are fun until they get caught. Then they are horrible people. Please they would keep doing it and take all their lies to the grave bc it doesn't bother them that much as long as it serves them. They are fine living like this. That is why many don't get treated.

I totally agree with what you wrote, as my experience was exactly the same. You nailed it for me. There are differences in BPDs because each person is an individual, just our interpretations might differ, also due to our individual perceptions and experiences, some of us might indulge them more, while others put the brakes on early. However, weather they share narcissistic traits or are full NPD and BPD, that is up to a psychiatrist to determine. Your experience is your reality and if it differs from others, that's ok. I really appreciated you sharing your view, because for me, that was my reality as well. Thank you for your insight. 

[Climbmountains91]

The book I read on BPD said that there are definite Narcisstics traits in them. I saw them in mine, but not fully where he thought highly of himself. He had low self esteem and he played the victim and pity card often. But then he would be completely selfish, entitled, self absorbed, and wanting to do what he wanted to do regardless. Maybe some of the traits are comorbid . I wouldn't say he was a full blown Narcisstic but he definitely had attributes of one

This is my ex here.

I do believe in someway the both traits can cross over each other or a few traits of NPD lye in a BPD.

[Itstopsnow]

Thanks everyone, for the feed back! It was very nice each of you responded.

[hopealways]

I agree. Yes we know they are distinct disorders but in the lay persons terms Borderlines are definitely narcissists.

[hashtag_loyal]

I agree. Yes we know they are distinct disorders but in the lay persons terms Borderlines are definitely narcissists.

I disagree, even using the lay-person term of "narcissist."

I would agree that all pwBPD are innately self-centered, but for very different reasons than "narcissism." The lay person thinks of a narcissist as someone who is self-centered because they believe that they are so much better than everyone else, while a pwBPD by definition has dangerously low levels of self-esteem. They think only of themselves because their motivations are driven almost entirely by fear, pain and need. Humans are hard-wired to think first for ourselves when suffering from extreme fear or pain.

So in my opinion, I think pwBPD are selfish for completely different reasons than classic "narcissists." Polar opposites, actually.

[Dutched]

Joining late, just to see were we’re going

As one reads various websites about Borderline and Narcissism one easily can get confused as traits exhibit in both are similar.

As cosmonaut IMO correctly writes there is overlap but the source of the behaviour is very different.

I certainly don’t want to diminish experiences from other members that recognizes the statement of  Itstopsnow, certainly not.

However having a closer look at co morbidity rates found (of course data is collected via diagnosed BPD sufferers), it shows a rate of 25%.

It contradicts the unknown source Itstopsnow refers to.

According to the NIMH-funded National Comorbidity Survey Replication—the largest national study to date of mental disorders in U.S. adults—about 85 percent of people with BPD also suffer from another mental illness

Major Depressive Disorder – 60%

Dysthymia (a chronic type of depression) – 70%

Substance abuse – 35%

Eating disorders (such as anorexia, bulimia, binge eating) – 25%

Bipolar disorder – 15%

Antisocial Personality Disorder – 25%

Narcissistic Personality Disorder – 25%

Self-Injury – 55%-85%

Source:  Lenzenweger MF, Lane MC, Loranger AW, Kessler RC. DSM-IV personality disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication. Biol Psychiatry. 2007 Sep 15; 62(6): 553–64.

[rarsweet]

In my opinion the narc is more evolved than the borderline. The narc at some point in childhood learned a mechanism to get what he wants. The borderline didn't. I think narcs are malicious, they offend to cause pain and exert control. Borderlines seem to constantly defend against real or imagined threats and this leads to bad behaviors when they feel out of control. I think narcs feel entitled to attention and pwBPD just desperately want attention to feel loved.

[troisette]

Narcissists also have low self-esteem. The grandiose front is a way of concealing it.

Narcissists are also devoid of empathy - it's one of the markers of diagnosis. I'm not sure if all BPDs lack empathy.

[Alberto]

Some authors say BPDs are failed narcissists, it makes sense.