When they can't understand your pain.

[CrazyChuck]

My wife got mad all over again about a fight we had over a week ago. It was because she said she was cold and I said to change the thermostat. She came back with "you don't care that I am cold?". And I replied "We have fought about this before. I do not touch the thermostat ever. If you are cold change it. If you are hot change it. I never touch it.". This made her so angry. She started yelling "So I am angry all the time!". Anyway there have been several fights after that. Not big ones, the normal "You know I hate when you turn the bathroom fan on" followed with the "You stunk up the bathroom".

But we were doing great the last three days. Yesterday I had to validate two issues I thought were going to explode. And then she just says out of left field "Remember last week when you said I was angry all the time? My feelings are still hurt." To which I replied "I'm sorry about that. Do you want to say you are sorry as well." She exploded. "Why would I say I am sorry?" "Why can't you just give an apology without all the bullsh*t with it.". She didn't talk to me the rest of the night and slept on top of the covers.

So today I get a text that she is still upset with my bullsh*t apology. And I started to write her back that I am also upset and that I am tired of her anger. And then I stopped, because I know it never works. I can never tell her how I feel without her getting explosively angry. I just have to suck it up and only say "I am sorry I was a jerk. I hope you forgive me.". And she always does. For about two days. And then I might kick the bed in the dark, making her angry I woke her up and I don't care about her getting any sleep.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[isilme]

FI 'remembers' with his emotions, so if a situation made him feel a certain way, if anything else makes him feel similar, the old issues all get cropped back up - which is ironic, because it means he 'argues like a woman, bringing up the past' over an over. 

He has been doing better, but I knew that our upcoming wedding trip was going to cause him to dysregulate more and more, and in 3 days he's 'cancelled' the wedding twice.  And threatened to kick me out last night over a missing bottle of swim ear. 

Empathy is not impossible with a person with BPD, but it's also not common.  I think for them the world is a morass of internal conflict and pain, so you'd have to almost be bleeding in the street for it to register.  Sorry, I'm a little tired and cranky, and try to get my own feelings out on here so I don't react to FI's prodding at home.

But empathy is required for an equitable understanding of "yeah, I hurt you, but you hurt me, too, so let's both apologize and be grown ups and move on".  Many times, only their pain can matter. 

Couples have lots of arguments over the mundane, from the thermostat to finding peanut butter (yes, this happened yesterday, too - if it's not in the front of items in the pantry, we're out, I threw something out, I never bought it, it magically disappeared.  Not, it got moved because either one of us needed something in front of or behind it. Instead, I purposefully hide it to frustrate him O_o).  The problem is when one side cannot admit fault, ever, or if fault is admitted it leads to mass amounts of shame. 

In a r/s like this, there are certain levels of inequality that are pretty much just going to have to be radically accepted - she is what she is.  All you can work on is you.  And I am trying his both to assist you and tor remind myself that I can't make FI feel any different, all I can do is come up with strategies for how to mitigate damage from not knee-jerk reacting.  I'm terrible at boundaries, the extinction bursts are horrible and so I can't always be strong enough to be bold and state I won't be treated like that.  All I can try to do is be better about coming up with ways to remove myself from situations I guess.

[CrazyChuck]

if it's not in the front of items in the pantry, we're out, I threw something out, I never bought it, it magically disappeared.  Not, it got moved because either one of us needed something in front of or behind it. Instead, I purposefully hide it to frustrate him O_o). 

I get this a lot. And then I get yelled at that it should be where she left it last. Of course nothing is ever returned to the same place by her. And if I say something like "I can't find the peanut butter" she will get angry and tell me to look for it. And then come take over and when she finds where she put it last, she will slam it on the counter.

One of the hard parts is yesterday I wrote and deleted several emails that I wanted to send. But I know there is no way she would understand what I am saying and it would just be viewed as an attack on her.

The thermostat is a boundary. She used to get so angry that I changed the thermostat, even though she had asked me to do it hours previously. It was like I was supposed to be a mind reader and know that I should have changed it from the last time she asked me to change it. So I now tell her I will not change the thermostat. I will not ever touch it.

[steev]

Chuck, boy do you illustrate the insidious underbelly of BPD. It’s called No-Win, ever.

Like the thermostat, my wife has numerous “piles” of newspapers, junk mail, bills, magazines … I DO NOT TOUCH them. Being the good husband I used to filter out the chaff of said piles and be accused of losing something in short order. Pure attack, condemning, anger…never to-do-that-again. I don’t, but still get accused occasionally while my kitchen table looks like a hoarder lives there.

BTW, I don’t even move them aside to eat the meals, she does. Yes, I do all the cooking because she is overwhelmed and I don't do "anything" around the house.

[adventurer]

First of all, I have been 100% in your shoes and it's maddening.  Since you're working on improving and managing communications I'm going to make a couple comments.  FWIW - I'm no freaking expert on this stuff.

It was because she said she was cold and I said to change the thermostat.

This may be a little 'men=mars, women=venus' -ish, but I personally have completely stopped offering any sort of solution or rational discussion in response to my wife's complaints.  They say men want solutions and women want shoulders (to lean and cry on) - maybe this is sexist nonsense but it has helped me out.  She wants sympathy and validation - just reflect to her something like "yeah, being cold is no fun" or even something stupid and playful like "that's my little eskimo!".  Something that fits your personal style and that won't seem sarcastic or invalidating to her.

Anyway there have been several fights after that. Not big ones, the normal "You know I hate when you turn the bathroom fan on" followed with the "You stunk up the bathroom".

So she is putting you in a bind?  This shouldn't turn into a fight - it takes two to fight.  Either thing you do is going to get critized so you have to do whatever you want without regard for how she might react.  Then, when she tries to complain to you about it, just own whatever it is without trying to justify yourself or explain.  If you don't turn on the fan, say "yeah it sure is stinky."   If you turn on the fan and she complains about the noise, you can say, "yup, that fan is really loud." If she tries to escalate from there, validate or deflect, whatever.  I do stuff like this with my wife all the time and it's helped reduce conflict.  She is trying to pick a fight and I just agree with the facts without trying to justify myself to her or 'fix' or placate her feelings and it just fizzles.

And then she just says out of left field "Remember last week when you said I was angry all the time? My feelings are still hurt." To which I replied "I'm sorry about that. Do you want to say you are sorry as well."

This calling her out for an apology seems a little passive-agressive to me.  Know and accept that she will likely not take responsibility for anything and trying to push for that will only set her off.

I started to write her back that I am also upset and that I am tired of her anger. And then I stopped, because I know it never works. I can never tell her how I feel without her getting explosively angry. I just have to suck it up and only say "I am sorry I was a jerk. I hope you forgive me.". And she always does. For about two days.

This is the worst part and I get this too.  You simply cannot talk about your own feelings without having it turned around on you, into a big argument where everything is your fault.  I don't have any great answers for this except you need a network of friends, family and possibly a therapist where you have a safe outlet to talk about and share your feelings, so your wife doesn't have to be that person.  Maybe when things are less heated, you WILL be able to tell her about something that is upsetting you.  Check the lessons here about the S.E.T. technique.  This is very delicate at first and you will need to first learn about maintaining boundaries and avoiding blowups through validation and protecting your boundaries.

If she gets "explosively angry" you need to suggest that one of your personal values is not getting screamed at.  Suggest you both take a break until things are a little less heated.  Tell her you are going to move to a different room for a 30 minute cooldown.  If she follows you around screaming at you and still won't respect your space, you need to let her know you will leave the house for 2 hours.

I know you're no newbie and know a lot of this stuff already, but you are going to have to try as hard as you can to accept that she won't be sympathetic to you or your feelings.  You will need to show her that you will remain unaffected by her insults or her rages.

[waverider]

Re thermostat she told you she was feeling cold. You answered with logic, not acknowledging she felt cold. She knows she could turn the thermostat up, you stated the obvious as though she was stupid, at least thats how she interpreted it.

Men are particularly bad at responding with obviously logical solutions to a BPD womans expressions of feelings. We are bad at it even without BPD added to the mix.

How about "come here and I'll warm you up or do you want the thermostat higher?"

[waverider]

Chuck, boy do you illustrate the insidious underbelly of BPD. It’s called No-Win, ever.

Like the thermostat, my wife has numerous “piles” of newspapers, junk mail, bills, magazines … I DO NOT TOUCH them. Being the good husband I used to filter out the chaff of said piles and be accused of losing something in short order. Pure attack, condemning, anger…never to-do-that-again. I don’t, but still get accused occasionally while my kitchen table looks like a hoarder lives there.

BTW, I don’t even move them aside to eat the meals, she does. Yes, I do all the cooking because she is overwhelmed and I don't do "anything" around the house.

I get this too. Never ever throw anything out or you get blamed for everything and be expected to fix/replace it. I scoop everything up into big boxes without sorting anything,and stack them out of the way somewhere.  That way you can't be blamed for throwing anything out, nor do you have to live in filth. They have the consequence of having to go find things for themselves and the piles of boxes means they can't deny its an issue.

The aim is to stop it being your problem

[isilme]

.Never ever throw anything out or you get blamed for everything and be expected to fix/replace it. I scoop everything up into big boxes without sorting anything,and stack them out of the way somewhere.  That way you can't be blamed for throwing anything out, nor do you have to live in filth. They have the consequence of having to go find things for themselves and the piles of boxes means they can't deny its an issue.

Lol, I thought this was just us.  His moms a hoarder, and he does try to fight it but has those fleas.  So when I clean, I try to do it with him out of the house so I can toss junk mail (he saves it wanting to shred it. dear occupant stuff). Then, I purposefully save some things I could still toss along with actual important mail, stick it in a file box, and get back to cleaning.  We have about four bins of nothing but old mail, none of it mine, to toss. 

Add this to me not being allowed to donate stuff to goodwill if he sees it, even if it no longer fits... .I just wait till he's not looking.  He has a hoarders attachment to stuff that can seem like junk. Throwing things out causes him stress.

As for the thermostat, I'm more likely to offer a throw blanket or turn off a fan than change the thermostat.  Maybe that's an option next time, to be sympathetic but still adhere to the 'I don't touch the thermostat' boundary?

[CrazyChuck]

If she gets "explosively angry" you need to suggest that one of your personal values is not getting screamed at.  Suggest you both take a break until things are a little less heated.  Tell her you are going to move to a different room for a 30 minute cooldown.  If she follows you around screaming at you and still won't respect your space, you need to let her know you will leave the house for 2 hours.

All this is great advice. I never thought saying change the thermostat would be insulting. But I can see it now.

She used to threaten to cheat. So I'll take angry any day.



I have a problem with the 30 minute cooldown. I feel like I will explode if I can't workout the issue. It is strange because I know I can't workout the issue. But I still feel like my insides are going to rip apart if I do not. After her big angry 20 minutes, she is done. She shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it. If I can control myself and shutup, she will just do a dig every few minutes. But that is very rare. Most of the time I just keep begging her to understand that I didn't want to spill the chili. It was just an accident. Or that I am sorry I pooped in the bathroom but I really had to poop. If I go too long, she will either lock herself in the bathroom and start crying. Or she will grab her keys and leave for several hours or the night. Sometimes I will yell Everyone poops! And thats all it takes for her to be out the door.


If I ignore her anger she will get even more angry and say I am blowing her off and she hates that more than anything. She will escalate me ignoring her so quick.

[adventurer]

Maybe some other people can chime in with their opinions/advice about handling timeouts and rages.

I know exactly what you mean about wanting to work out the issue.  I am a 'fixer' and I get VERY anxious just letting things sit and stew.  For me even worse than rages is the silent treatment - puts me right on edge.  But, I have made a lot of progress on getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.

If we rush in to fix for someone else, we are either enabling them to continue doing the bad things that require fixing, or in the case of someone in the middle of a rager, we are just pushing them further into dysregulation.

I would think if you are unable to get away from her within the house for a time out when she is in a rage, you will need to leave the house.  I've heard having a set time away is good because it will help alleviate the abandonment fears a bit - this is something you could try to discuss in a calmer moment.  She will rage even worse at first but hopefully learn that you have a boundary and will stick to it, so her behavior will get her nowhere.

Again, I think more senior members here might have more insight on this.

[waverider]

If you have ever mixing paints you would be aware that once you get an off color, if you keep trying to fix it by throwing in more pigments you are on a one way trip to poo brown