Unilateral control of the radio/TV

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

There are so many little behavioral quirks that pwBPD do that we nons learn to ignore. One of these things in my husband's case is deciding when to switch radio stations, such as when we're driving in the car. Other times, I'll be making dinner and listening to the radio and he will come into the house and without asking me if I was listening to something, switch the station or turn off the radio.

Sometimes when I was immersed in a program, usually some esoteric topic on public radio, such as alternative energy, which holds little interest for him, I'll say, "Hey, I was listening to that!" Then he'll turn back to my station. Sometimes he will harrumph because he was hoping to listen to a newscast he enjoys (which he could easily listen to in his studio).

He also does this with the TV, although less frequently because it's in his studio and if he turns to something I'm not interested in, I'll get up and leave and go in the house to do something else.

So the other night, after the most recent primary election, we were driving to a restaurant and listening to the election coverage. (We're both political junkies.) Just as I would start getting interested in what was being discussed, he would switch the station to a different channel. Then as I started following that discussion, back he'd switch to the first station. It started to become humorously annoying. Then he abruptly turned off the radio.

As we sat in silence for a couple of minutes, he turned to me and asked "What are you thinking?"

I said, I was curious about the comments some of the political insiders were making.

Immediately he turned to me and in the beginning of a rage, said, "Why can't you treat me like a human being?"

I was baffled at what that was all about. He continued, "Why don't you talk to me? You could have said that you wanted to listen to that."

Of course I thought I was talking to him all along. So I said, "It wasn't important," using a phrase from his playbook, I now realize.

I tried to ignore the outburst and change the subject and soon we were talking about different things. Then as we got to the restaurant, he started up on this subject again. "Why don't you talk to me? etc."

This wasn't a discussion I wanted to have in public, yet I knew I had to say something to satisfy him. "Often when I've objected about you changing the channel, you've harrumphed and so you've trained me not to comment unless it's something that's important to me."

"Oh, so then it all comes down to my shortcomings," he said. I didn't disagree with him. I dropped the subject and he was glum for a few hours, but recovered enough to tell me he loved me some hours later.

I noticed this pattern of unilateral control of media when we were first dating and driving several hours in my car. I had all my favorite music CDs and he would pop one of them in the player, listen to it for a minute or two, grunt and change to another. I was rather offended that he judged all my music thusly, but overlooked it because I was totally smitten with him then. But I did think that was rather a narcissistic way to control what we were listening to. He does have this sense that music he likes is "the best" and what he doesn't like is worthless.

It's funny because I listen to country music in my truck and when he borrows it, he can't stand the music that comes on when he turns on the ignition and has to switch to classical music or Howard Stern immediately.

[Cat Familiar]

There are so many little behavioral quirks that pwBPD do that we nons learn to ignore. One of these things in my husband's case is deciding when to switch radio stations, such as when we're driving in the car. Other times, I'll be making dinner and listening to the radio and he will come into the house and without asking me if I was listening to something, switch the station or turn off the radio.

Sometimes when I was immersed in a program, usually some esoteric topic on public radio, such as alternative energy, which holds little interest for him, I'll say, "Hey, I was listening to that!" Then he'll turn back to my station. Sometimes he will harrumph because he was hoping to listen to a newscast he enjoys (which he could easily listen to in his studio).

He also does this with the TV, although less frequently because it's in his studio and if he turns to something I'm not interested in, I'll get up and leave and go in the house to do something else.

So the other night, after the most recent primary election, we were driving to a restaurant and listening to the election coverage. (We're both political junkies.) Just as I would start getting interested in what was being discussed, he would switch the station to a different channel. Then as I started following that discussion, back he'd switch to the first station. It started to become humorously annoying. Then he abruptly turned off the radio.

As we sat in silence for a couple of minutes, he turned to me and asked "What are you thinking?"

I said, I was curious about the comments some of the political insiders were making.

Immediately he turned to me and in the beginning of a rage, said, "Why can't you treat me like a human being?"

I was baffled at what that was all about. He continued, "Why don't you talk to me? You could have said that you wanted to listen to that."

Of course I thought I was talking to him all along. So I said, "It wasn't important," using a phrase from his playbook, I now realize.

I tried to ignore the outburst and change the subject and soon we were talking about different things. Then as we got to the restaurant, he started up on this subject again. "Why don't you talk to me? etc."

This wasn't a discussion I wanted to have in public, yet I knew I had to say something to satisfy him. "Often when I've objected about you changing the channel, you've harrumphed and so you've trained me not to comment unless it's something that's important to me."

"Oh, so then it all comes down to my shortcomings," he said. I didn't disagree with him. I dropped the subject and he was glum for a few hours, but recovered enough to tell me he loved me some hours later.

I noticed this pattern of unilateral control of media when we were first dating and driving several hours in my car. I had all my favorite music CDs and he would pop one of them in the player, listen to it for a minute or two, grunt and change to another. I was rather offended that he judged all my music thusly, but overlooked it because I was totally smitten with him then. But I did think that was rather a narcissistic way to control what we were listening to. He does have this sense that music he likes is "the best" and what he doesn't like is worthless.

It's funny because I listen to country music in my truck and when he borrows it, he can't stand the music that comes on when he turns on the ignition and has to switch to classical music or Howard Stern immediately.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I think it just comes down to weak boundaries- not knowing where one person ends and another begins. I have often thought it just comes down to not being aware that one's intimate partner is a separate person with a mind of their own.

I have thought that many of the issue in my relationship are because of expectations that I know what my H is thinking and he can assume that I am thinking it too. He tends to not be clear about his needs/wants or to check in with me about mine. There is an assumption that if he is thinking he wants something, then I want it too.

He wants sex, well I want it too. ( not checking to see if I do)

He wants to change the radio station, well, so do I.

He's going to vote for person X, well so will I

If you listen to what your H says when you assert that you are a different person, he takes it as a rejection, a criticism, a personal affront to who he is, and is terribly hurt by this- not that you are just a different person.

Patricia Evans discusses this idea in her book "Controlling People". If you are his person of comfort ( "Teddy" in the book) then he has his ideas of his ideal Teddy. Of course, Teddy is going to like what he likes, want what he wants. When Teddy asserts her own ideas, and becomes not Teddy, this is distressing. In Evan's books, the topic is verbal abuse. I don't think this idea is only about this topic. I think someone can assume their partner thinks like they do and wants what they want and can be surprised when they don't.

But my H is also aware of my likes- what kind of music, musicians, food, and so on. I think the time to make this clear is not when your H is distressed, but before hand. Like before going out- saying you would like to listen to channel X. Then at other times he can change to the channel he wants. But I think being aware that he could feel personally criticized and hurt when you don't like what he likes might help you navigate how you assert your wishes.

[byfaith]

As we sat in silence for a couple of minutes, he turned to me and asked "What are you thinking?"

The majority of the time I have to lie when I get asked this question. I think of some good thought I had maybe five minutes before or some general thing.

When it comes to the TV my wife is pretty cool about it. I may turn it on and when she realizes or thinks I am not paying attention to it she will ask me if she can turn it.

One thing which is no big deal... .she will make the same slams every time certain commercials come on. I have done them for her before they come out of her mouth. The charter spectrum guy without fail she slams him every time. She doesn't like the way he looks or the way he talks.  Excuse me, but Im watching TV... .on my tablet.

I mainly listen to music by myself. Almost every song I listen to she connects with something in her past. I'm listening to ":)esperado" by the eagles and she starts in about guys who she knew that thought that this was their song blah blah blah... .outlaws, thought they were tough. I guess a lot of music connects her to bad past memories. 

I just like the way its sounds, he could have been singing about his dog for all I care.

[Cat Familiar]

Cat, I think it just comes down to weak boundaries- not knowing where one person ends and another begins. I have often thought it just comes down to not being aware that one's intimate partner is a separate person with a mind of their own.

I have thought that many of the issue in my relationship are because of expectations that I know what my H is thinking and he can assume that I am thinking it too. He tends to not be clear about his needs/wants or to check in with me about mine. There is an assumption that if he is thinking he wants something, then I want it too.

He wants sex, well I want it too. ( not checking to see if I do)

He wants to change the radio station, well, so do I.

He's going to vote for person X, well so will I

If you listen to what your H says when you assert that you are a different person, he takes it as a rejection, a criticism, a personal affront to who he is, and is terribly hurt by this- not that you are just a different person.

Yes, he thinks he knows my feelings and thoughts and oftentimes when he tells me what I think it is laughably so far from the reality of what I actually do think, it's hard to imagine that we've spent twelve years together. Likewise with my feelings. He'll often say that I'm angry when sometimes I'm tremendously confused by his behavior or comments.   And of course, who do you think he believes? His internal dialog or me?

Over time, I've become less the soft cuddly teddy, and more like a cactus. I certainly didn't have this in mind when I got together with him. I thought we'd maintain a warm close intimacy forever, but over time, dealing with his nastiness and coldness, I've backed further and further away. Though he's usually a relatively decent human being these days, having seen the ugly BPD side, I'm just so not attracted to him. I'd like to be. On our anniversary he gave me a beautiful and extravagant necklace and was in a fabulous mood, kind of like the guy I fell in love with so long ago. But that only lasted a day.

It's funny but giving me jewelry is so irrelevant to me. Usually I'm working outside and I'm happily dirty from working in the garden or playing with the horses and fancy jewelry is so far from my reality. It's like we're in two separate worlds and he neither sees nor understands the real me.

[Cat Familiar]

One thing which is no big deal... .she will make the same slams every time certain commercials come on. I have done them for her before they come out of her mouth. The charter spectrum guy without fail she slams him every time. She doesn't like the way he looks or the way he talks.  Excuse me, but Im watching TV... .on my tablet.

I mainly listen to music by myself. Almost every song I listen to she connects with something in her past. I'm listening to ":)esperado" by the eagles and she starts in about guys who she knew that thought that this was their song blah blah blah... .outlaws, thought they were tough. I guess a lot of music connects her to bad past memories.  

I just like the way its sounds, he could have been singing about his dog for all I care.

Yeah, my husband absolutely can't stand certain things--someone's voice might really irritate him or the way someone looks or moves. And I suspect he has some great memories that he connects to the Grateful Dead. He buys every compilation of their music that comes out and had literally thousands of their shows that he has downloaded online, including many versions of the same show. He has enough of their music that he couldn't live long enough to hear it all. Yet he continues to buy more.    I cannot stand hearing any more Grateful Dead after all these years.

Yet, one minute of current country music on my truck's radio is enough to drive him to distraction. Yeah I'm a hick. Too bad for him.

[byfaith]

It's like we're in two separate worlds and he neither sees nor understands the real me.

I know exactly how this feels.

[Cat Familiar]

It's like we're in two separate worlds and he neither sees nor understands the real me.

I know exactly how this feels.

To be fair, I don't understand him. Like, why the hell when your life is so blessed do you keep creating unnecessary problems for yourself, and me?

[byfaith]

To be fair, I don't understand him. Like, why the hell when your life is so blessed do you keep creating unnecessary problems for yourself, and me?

I will comment on this later have to get back to work but I wonder the same thing.

[Notwendy]

Cat, if I can give you any hope, it is that I felt very much like you do but recently, it is getting better. I think a big part of this is due to me letting go of some fears, or ways I related to my H. I am less disturbed by things and I think he is more relaxed around me.

It isn't that we don't slip into dysfunction, but that I see it better now, and can say oops I am in the mud, gotta stop this. I have also been less fearful of saying or doing things- I think I am more "me"- gotten back to working part time, not afraid to do things or see friends because it upsets him- so that makes me less resentful.

I think I also understand that these things that irritate me don't come from a malicious place. And I do express my wishes. Like you, I am more of an outdoors person in contrast to my dainty little girly mom. But I think I realized that it did irk me that my father would shower her with jewelry, designer anything she wanted while not being allowed to give me anything without her permission. So, for a recent birthday, I did want something special. Now this is not like me to ask for things like that, and usually I didn't get them. If you read my post on the parent board, my mother told me to not ever expect a gift from her- so I learned a long time ago not to ask, but this time, I made it pretty clear what I wanted and my H got it for me.

I realized that he really did want to get me something I wanted, but I am generally independent and not the type to ask for much. I think your H did try- but the jewelry didn't hit the spot. But I think if you made it really clear to him what you want for a present, I bet he would get it for you.

It has taken a lot of counseling and work on co-dependency to get to the point where I am less triggered by people in general. I am even more relaxed and less reactive around my mom- the mistress of all the triggers- . The people in our lives may be difficult, but I think with work, if it is a situation we wish to stay in ( like you do) we can work on ourselves- seems like a continuous work in progress. I spent many years trying to "fix" my marriage, but I got better results from working on my own stuff.

Like you, I have wondered about this "love of my life" stuff and I think that may be a myth. I know that if I chose someone who matched my issues from my FOO, anyone who I thought was the "love of my life" would have been someone who presented me with these issues- which motivates me to work on them.

[Cat Familiar]

I can't say that I've been afraid of saying or doing what I want. I've been outspoken and most of my life I've been openly rebellious. I was one of those people who thought that I could always talk out issues and come to agreement, even if it was agreeing to disagree. That didn't work too well with the first husband, but after I divorced him I didn't run into any difficulties communicating with other people.

However, with my current husband, who ironically worked as a mediator for a number of years, in addition to being a lawyer, it was as if we were speaking different languages. When his logic would suddenly leave the premises, I was aghast, and I wondered what happened to the rational person that used to inhabit his body.

Since I've been participating here, I now understand how just being me, can "set him off" and I've tried to temper my behavior in a way that doesn't elicit a negative response. I can foresee how things go off the rails now and start changing course before things become heated. So definitely things are better than they were. That said, learning how to do this has also enhanced the gulf I feel between us. I thought I had signed up to be in a partnership with an equal and now I feel like a caretaker. Not what I had in mind.

I do realize that he is not purposefully "doing this" but in many ways that doesn't make things better. In fact, in some ways it's worse. I no longer hold out hope that he might become a fully functioning healthy man. And the sad thing is that I'm no longer attracted to who he is.

On our anniversary he somehow sucked it up and for a day was the great guy I fell in love with. In some ways, just seeing that wonderful guy again made things worse because I realize that he could be that way if he chose, but the reality is that who he pretended to be to win me over was an illusion that he cannot maintain on a continuous basis. It's really sad, but that's what's real.

[Notwendy]

I get how you feel- especially the despair at feeling like you are speaking different languages. My H is not a lawyer but like your H is intelligent- verbal - and competent - except with me. Likewise I feel I can talk to anyone and be understood except by him.

I too have gone through grief and despair that the persona I fell in love with was not real. When he was painting me black- he was that person to everyone else but me. It did make me angry when that person appeared because then I knew he could control that.

I don't want that person. He isn't real. I decided I wanted a real person- with flaws even- because it's better to me than one that isn't real. For me- I need to be real and accept my imperfections too.

Somehow accepting that the persona isn't real helped me to not wish for it. Lately the grief and resentment seems less. I don't know why.

[Cat Familiar]

Grief and despair about sums it up. I went through a profound grief a while ago and thought I was done with that phase, so it surprised me when it recently returned with a vengeance. What I don't understand is that my husband was able for many years to be the "non-real persona" I fell in love with. And then that person showed up again a few days ago, after not being around for years.

Seeing him like that made me sad about who he is on a regular basis. If it was all an act, how did he maintain it for so long? And why would he pull that persona out of storage for a day on our anniversary?

I feel like I've been played. It was an incredible bait and switch. Usually this thing happens in relationships with pwBPD in a matter of months, but I got the "great guy" for a few years--not long enough.  :'(

[Notwendy]

I think Cat- because we are dealing with very high functioning people. Thank goodness for that in many ways- but also because it isn't so easy to spot red flags.

My H painted me black for years and then "dream man " showed up. It would be overjoyed to see him but then also angry that he could choose to turn it off or on. I have grieved the loss of that persona, but no more- because I don't want him.

What I have now is a human imperfect person, who I have even told him - I just want a real human. You know that persona was formed out of fear and shame for not receiving unconditional love as children. That's their issue to deal with. Neither you nor I can ( or should) take that on ( we have our own stuff- ).

But we can try to accept that the real guy is the one we have. But I get  the anger. Ironically being dream man is the way to not get what they want- to be loved for who they are. I try to do that, but with boundaries- not accepting mistreatment.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, Notwendy, high functioning describes it. And that's an interesting twist because sometimes it can appear that he's "normal" and I let down my guard, only to be surprised by some weird behavior out of the blue.

I'm not quite as advanced with acceptance as you are. I really enjoyed seeing "dream man" for a day, but then I greatly grieved his disappearance and felt tremendously irritated that he, as you say, "can turn it off or on."

We just got back from seeing the symphony in the "big city" and I'm so glad to be back to rural reality. The less I have to be in cities, the happier I am. I think my husband really got that. He asked if I was excited to hear the symphony on our drive there. I hesitated for a long time and he realized that I did not share his enthusiasm. "Well then, why did you say you'd go?" he asked.

"Because I wanted to be with you," I said. Oddly enough, this seemed to get me extra credit points for honesty. I think he really understands now how stressful it is for me to be in a big city and in the future when I don't go with him to the cultural events he looks forward to, I sense that he will be a bit more understanding. At least I hope so.

I showed vulnerability and the emotional side of myself, which he rarely sees. Usually he's the emotional one, so in sum, I think this little excursion made us a bit closer.

[Notwendy]

I showed vulnerability and the emotional side of myself


This is huge Cat, because for them to be vulnerable is a big step and when we are, it models it, perhaps gives them permission, should they choose to let the guard down.

I think that helped me to let go of some anger at losing Mr Dream Man. That's actually a facade- a defense, something they think they need to be to be loved. I wonder if some of the deregulation is because it takes a lot of mental energy to keep a "mask" on, that they just let go. Not to make excuses for that- it isn't OK to be raged at.

It helped me to let go of some anger when I realized I would rather have a real person. But it is a work in progress- I think it is more circular progress- like a spiral. Some times I will probably be frustrated more than others.

It is good that your H understands your feelings about city /rural. And if he's a city guy, then doing things together may mean a trade off- you going to museums/plays/symphonies and he might go with you on a hike. But also keep in mind his nature. Someone easily bored might be inclined to dysregulate more when bored, so things like symphonies or movies may make for more pleasant outings then being isolated in a quiet place- even if you like that.

[sempervivum]

I don´t like it or I like it from his mouth mean WE (don´t) like it. I  correct him without any harm and when I do it in front of some audience, he withdraws.

But then the car music. He knows or in some cases senses which song I DO like and exactly when such a song starts, he switches the station or changes the CD. (I guess good mood is allowed only when he´s in it.)

TV: When I hold the remote and when I survey the channels to see if there is something interesting to see I do it really slowly and I don´t run 10 times again through all channels. He does - and he does it quickly. I wonder how can he even observe if there is something boring or interesting. If I object, he says I do the same. (Between the lines: "Shut up woman!".

When he watches something he finds interesting, I do something else or I turn on the computer monitor that serves as TV. Very soon he comes to this other room and asks what happened.  

When I watch something I like - if I´ m lucky, he watches it, too. If I´m not, he asks isn´t there anything "less stupid" on.

My big brother.

[Cat Familiar]

I showed vulnerability and the emotional side of myself

This is huge Cat, because for them to be vulnerable is a big step and when we are, it models it, perhaps gives them permission, should they choose to let the guard down... .

I wonder if some of the deregulation is because it takes a lot of mental energy to keep a "mask" on, that they just let go... .

Someone easily bored might be inclined to dysregulate more when bored, so things like symphonies or movies may make for more pleasant outings then being isolated in a quiet place- even if you like that.

Some really good points, Notwendy. As a child, I learned not to show vulnerability because my mother would use it against me. Maybe not right away, but she'd file it and save it up for a time when she could really wound me with my own words. Because I come across as strong and stoic, my husband tries to use that against me, saying, "You think you're so perfect." Nothing could be further from the truth. I often laugh out loud at some stupid thing I've said or done, but the difference is that I've learned to love myself and treat myself as my best friend.

I overhear his internal dialog sometimes when it becomes externalized and he's extremely critical and unkind to himself.

And good catch about being bored. He's frequently bored and seems to need constant stimulation of books, TV, movies, radio, etc. Whereas for me, I'm happily relaxed most of the time and have a quiet mind, unless I'm trying to solve some external problem like engineering a way to mount a solar panel to charge the battery in my tow-behind mower (which is my task du jour today).

[Cat Familiar]

I don´t like it or I like it from his mouth mean WE (don´t) like it. I  correct him without any harm and when I do it in front of some audience, he withdraws.

But then the car music. He knows or in some cases senses which song I DO like and exactly when such a song starts, he switches the station or changes the CD. (I guess good mood is allowed only when he´s in it.)

TV: When I hold the remote and when I survey the channels to see if there is something interesting to see I do it really slowly and I don´t run 10 times again through all channels. He does - and he does it quickly. I wonder how can he even observe if there is something boring or interesting. If I object, he says I do the same. (Between the lines: "Shut up woman!".

When he watches something he finds interesting, I do something else or I turn on the computer monitor that serves as TV. Very soon he comes to this other room and asks what happened.  

When I watch something I like - if I´ m lucky, he watches it, too. If I´m not, he asks isn´t there anything "less stupid" on.

My big brother.

My husband now knows I don't like the same music as him nor appreciate Howard Stern. I know he listens to him on a regular basis but denies it and says he only listens because Howard is such a good interviewer. It's like when men used to claim the only reason they read Playboy magazine was for the articles.

So we will be driving and he'll switch from classical, to jam bands, to an absolutely insipid "relaxing" station on Sirius radio "Spa" (sorry if I've offended any of you), to Howard Stern, until Howard gets really vulgar, which takes about two minutes. Then, rinse, repeat. The only thing that makes any sense of this is thinking this is an external representation of the chaos that goes on inside his brain.

He also zips through the TV channels like your SO, sempervivum. Oddly, he ridicules a friend of his who does the very same thing. I guess it's a control thing--they need to be the ones in charge of the remote.

He watches sports, any and all. And if I come over to his studio while he's watching, he will often be kind enough to record the game so that we can watch something we both enjoy. But if some game has gone into overtime and he tells me it's only a minute left, I'll typically leave and do something else because I know they'll stretch that "minute" out into a quarter hour with commercials and timeouts.

He will then get really offended that I can't even watch the game for "a minute" yet if I turn on RFD TV and watch a horse training show, I can count down ten seconds before he's out the door--and since it's his studio where the TV is located, he will drive into town for a drink. So I never watch any show that might only be of interest to me, unless he's out of town.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh and the thing with Howard Stern: I think it's sort of an alter ego expression of unrestrained adolescent id. He will change the channel when I'm with him and Howard is saying something so obscene or vulgar--I think he gets embarrassed that I overhear the kind of radio he listens to. My husband is so proper, he seldom says any swear words--that's my territory. 

And I'm no prude, but what I recently told my husband about Stern is that I think that he gives men a very negative impression in women's eyes.

[HurtinNW]

My ex couldn't abide the kids or I creating any noise he hadn't approved, whether listening to music or whistling or what have you. He'd harumph, sigh, get irritated, and if we were lucky, leave the room. He had a very narrow range of "approved" things he wanted to hear.

Eventually I realized this was a person who had such a hard time dealing with any unplanned stimulus. He had a desperate need to control his environment, because inside it was emotional chaos, and to try and control that was hard enough—throw in some unplanned whistling coming into his brain uninvited and all heck broke loose. By trying to control his outside environment he hoped to keep the inner peace.

Originally I thought it was persnicketness, and being a judgemental butthead, and while those may be true, I think the deeper reason was lack of filter. He couldn't step back and identify that outside noise was irritating him, and try to deal with it. Everything got in and because of feelings = facts it meant we were at fault for "making" the problem. He rationalized it by saying everyone hates whistling, everyone hates our music, and so forth.

[Cat Familiar]

The harrumphing is really a funny aspect to the BPD, when I am objective enough to be amused by it. It's such an overly dramatic statement of scorn and disdain. I can count on it happening when he starts up my truck and the country music starts up on satellite radio. I don't take it personally anymore, but the message is: "How could someone possibly find this drivel worth listening to? You'd have to be a moron to actually like this."

I grew up with parents who listened to country music and at the time, it embarrassed me because I thought we were hicks. In high school and college, I became pretentious and tried to associate myself with more cultured artistic expressions. In recent years, I've rediscovered my roots in Americana music and I appreciate how that genre documents the day to day reality of rural life and hard work.

This sets me apart from my husband, who has immersed himself in classics, whether it's music, literature or art. Getting dirty working outside, doctoring animals, digging in the garden, harvesting vegetables, fixing fences--my typical daily tasks--are all foreign and unpleasant experiences to him. He'd much prefer listening to music, reading books, watching TV and movies.

As you mention, HurtinNW, there is a "desperate need to control his environment" and I'm just now realizing how insecure he is and how unfamiliar my world is to him. Yesterday one of my horses charged through a fence and I had to fix it prior to making dinner. I had to haul a ladder down to the pasture to fix something that was overhead above a gate and when my husband saw me load the ladder in the truck, he put on his "outdoor" shoes and said he'd walk down there. I thought, "Great! I'll have him steady the ladder on the uneven ground."

Well, I guess he returned to his studio and watched TV because I had gotten that part of the repair done and was loading the ladder back into the truck as he sauntered down the hill. I still wasn't done with the repair as I had to get parts from the barn, but then he left. I thought I could accomplish the rest of the repair on my own, but it seemed really weird to me that he would just walk off before the job was done. Ultimately I had to go get him to help me finish because I didn't have enough strength to do the last part of the job myself.

"Why didn't you tell me you needed help?" he asked. (I thought it was pretty obvious and I would never have abandoned someone when they were fixing something like that.) "I thought I could do it myself," I said.

Two entirely different realities. I'm amazed that we ever got together in the first place.

[Notwendy]

Some of this is Venus and Mars behavior. I think the Howard Stern thing is some sort of male bonding ritual, hopefully not one that people take too seriously, and one could probably say the same thing about lifetime TV and soap operas for women. I guess as long as people can find something they like to watch together once in a while, indulging in the other shows isn't an issue. Whenever my H is out of town, I watch the mushy over the top romance movies that he doesn't want to see. I can handle on occasional football or basketball game, but not with avid enthusiasm.

One think I learned about tasks and activities is that people tend to like to do what they do well, and if they don't want to appear less competent, they are less likely to do something they don't do well in front of other people. Think about this from the perspective of someone being shamed as a child for making a mistake. When my H refused to do something that involved the kids or the house, acting as if it was "women's work" and he was not going to do it ,I assumed he was being a jerk. If I look at it a different way, he grew up in a home where the women did everything considered "women's work"- so as well as that message- he has no experience doing it. I on the other hand didn't learn that it was women's work but did it because BPD mom didn't. So what I brought to the marriage was years of housework skills. Sometimes my H would get angry if I didn't cook, and yet when left to his own devices, he really acts lost in the kitchen. I don't think he can cook- other than grilling a steak and how should he know if he didn't ever do it? He has skills that I don't have as well. But in this light, it would make sense for him to refuse rather than do a bad job of it.

Cat- your H has strong academic and intellectual skills- that is what he is good at. However, your world really is foreign to him. Also, you are at this point better at doing all these animal related tasks than he is. He probably wouldn't know what to do with a stubborn horse, or a fence, but he isn't likely to admit it to you. Better to him to ignore it or put it down. However, he might be willing to do these things with you and try them if he feels he can do it in an emotionally safe way.

[Cat Familiar]

Good points, Notwendy. I know my husband was not only shamed by his father, but by his ex-wife when she told him he wasn't "holding a hammer the right way."

I guess because I grew up with parents who were so competent at "real world" tasks, it's hard to imagine that someone could get so old and be such a novice at common life skills, but I see evidence of that constantly. It makes a lot of sense that he wouldn't want to expose his incompetence.

I guess I get grumpy because his "being a scholar" really benefits no one, certainly not me when I need a helping hand. And I have to laugh when I think how sometimes when I've given him a bag of veggies to share with someone, I've overheard him say that "We've grown these" when there's absolutely no "we" involved whatsoever.

I think I'm a bit sensitized to disparaging comments about women after following our election coverage recently, so this Howard Stern thing seems really disgusting to me and perpetuating a narrative that women are objects to be used, but I know my husband doesn't believe this, so I can let go of it as an adolescent male bonding experience. (He probably has the same visceral reaction of disgust to my country music.)  

[Notwendy]

well I don't really want to be Erika Kane ( the man eater from All My Children) but I sure enjoyed watching her and imagining what that could be like. And no way could I take a soap opera seriously. So, your H may be entertained by Howard Stern, so long as he knows it is entertainment and not a role model.


Most of us are good at some things, bad at another. Your H has learned to master academics, an important skill while you have gained practical skills on a farm. All valuable. But none of them transfer well to relationship skills, which for many of us ( me included) we have to learn from the bottom up.

[Cat Familiar]

Most of us are good at some things, bad at another. Your H has learned to master academics, an important skill while you have gained practical skills on a farm. All valuable. But none of them transfer well to relationship skills, which for many of us ( me included) we have to learn from the bottom up.

Yeah. I thought all there was to relationships was to be kind and to be honest. That sure didn't work out the way I thought it would. 

[Notwendy]

Yes, I kinda had that Golden Rule idea too- which I think still is a very good principle. But in a relationship, it is a good idea for both people to practice.

I had to also learn to practice it with me. Treat myself the way I wish others would.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, I kinda had that Golden Rule idea too- which I think still is a very good principle. But in a relationship, it is a good idea for both people to practice.

I had to also learn to practice it with me. Treat myself the way I wish others would.

The Golden Rule   That was a big mistake when I treated him the way I wished he would treat me! What I didn't take into consideration was that codependents have different desires than pwBPD. I was into the "honest and kind" stuff while what he needed was validation. Even knowing that, it still amazes me that he can't come out and say directly what he thinks at times. There are times when I want honesty, not validation from him! After all these years it surprises me when he's trying to figure out what it is that I want him to say, rather than just telling me the simple truth, but I guess that's also related to pwBPD not being sure of their identity, their wants, their needs, their opinions.

I've been very good at treating myself well ever since I split up with the first BPD husband. That experience and therapy really helped me break some of those habits of not being kind to myself.

[Notwendy]

You and I have similar approaches and so do our H's. My H does not directly say what he wants. But nobody in his family does. They all kind of hint around, or tell another member to go ask for them. It's pretty weird, but in his FOO, asking his father directly for something was likely to elicit a shaming invalidating response. "You don't want that". "why would anyone want that" " what is wrong with you?".

The indirectness is crazy making. I am not a mind reader. So many times he would get pissed at me because somehow I disappointed him, failed to give him what he wanted, and yet I was thinking what the heck just happened? 

[Notwendy]

Does your H kinda make halfway attempts to feel your emotional temperature? Mine will ask these strange questions. One I know is that I think he worries I am cheating on him. So whenever I do something that isn't a usual routine, I get some really odd questions. I have not cheated on him, nor do I have plans to. I hardly do social things and if I do, it is with women or couples/families. The other day I met some girlfriends for dinner. Girls night. He knew this ahead of time. But his behavior towards me since has been odd- he is acting different, picking up on things that aren't real. I had pulled a muscle at the gym- told him that and then heard _ so you were at the gym? Hmmm what gym? ( like the one I belong to for years). There is just something off about the tone of the questions since I was gone for an evening.

But he wouldn't just come right out and ask me if I was with someone. And for heaven's sake I was not.

[sempervivum]

You and I have similar approaches and so do our H's. My H does not directly say what he wants. But nobody in his family does. They all kind of hint around, or tell another member to go ask for them. It's pretty weird, but in his FOO, asking his father directly for something was likely to elicit a shaming invalidating response. "You don't want that". "why would anyone want that" " what is wrong with you?".

The indirectness is crazy making. I am not a mind reader. So many times he would get pissed at me because somehow I disappointed him, failed to give him what he wanted, and yet I was thinking what the heck just happened? 

I know this phenomenon, too. My husband even announces his twisted speeches, usually at meals. Very often he repeats some riddle- or fable-like story, real or invented, which should educate his flock (all three of us votable citizens).