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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Confused: setting limits, taking care of myself, deescalation, validation  (Read 489 times)
uniquename
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« on: July 15, 2016, 05:43:11 AM »

I feel like I'm trying out tools like a table saw by reading a one-page sheet and I'm worried I'm about to cut off a finger!

My uH (diagnosed depression/anxiety) left a month ago voluntarily but then attempted suicide (without any harm to himself) the same day. I asked him not to come home. He mostly has complied but he has threatened to move back (and did it once while 16D and I were out of town).

I asked him to sign an agreement that said he allowed me exclusive use of the house and gave me sole custody of 16D. This was my understanding of what we have agreed to, but making it legally enforceable. He, as I thought he might, raged. I was hoping the legal protection of not losing his financial rights to the house would help. Nope.

We had been in second week of LC at my request. No calls, texts or emails except one day a week he'd email me things he needs and I would respond with a call a few days later. We'd agreed I'd update him when I got the agreement and about scheduling a visit with 16D. I sent that yesterday and the emails and calls started coming in.

So, he's not respecting the limits I set. At the same time, he's raging against the limits I set. He sent me emails and calls asking to meet face to face to talk about the agreement and other things. When I didn't respond for several hours (we had agreed to 2 days), he threatened he was coming back to our house if I didn't contact him. I called him and realize couldn't get much words in but I think I invalidated (defended). He asked me not to contact him and I said fine and hung up. He then sent another email to meet him face to face or he's moving back home to work in our marriage and sending him the agreement really crossed the line and we're done. (Ugh the illogic is so frustrating.) Sorry for the long post, but here's the point:

I think I need to validate his emotions. However, he also is raging against limits we mutually agreed to. So there should be consequences. But I'd also like to keep 16D and I in the house and him at his dad's. More so though I want to deescalate because I'm afraid, so I'm willing to move out with 16D and the dogs and let him live at home. But, will that deescalate anything? He wants to go back to how it was. I can't do that yet and maybe never. Any advice on how to handle this? Enforcing limits vs. deescalation and what will deescalate if we're in such disagreement over limits. Seems an unending circle. Thanks in advance.
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formflier
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 07:38:14 AM »


Good on you for trying!  You are standing up for yourself and for your daughter.

I'm going to give some advice, but before we get too deep.  You need to state your goals. 

If goal is that he never lives with us again, that is a totally different path from being open for him to live with you again, if he gets in therapy and improves himself. 

No judgement about either decision.  It is yours to make.  It would seem there is no option for complete NC due to daughter.

Listen... .I'm on your side.  So if I point out a better way... .it is for your benefit!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)




I asked him to sign an agreement that said he allowed me exclusive use of the house and gave me sole custody of 16D. This was my understanding of what we have agreed to, but making it legally enforceable. He, as I thought he might, raged. I was hoping the legal protection of not losing his financial rights to the house would help. Nope.

Did he sign the agreement?  Have you shown a lawyer?  Do you have a lawyer on retainer?   BPDwise my guess is there was some abandonment fear going on here as the source of the rage.


 

So, he's not respecting the limits I set. At the same time, he's raging against the limits I set. He sent me emails and calls asking to meet face to face to talk about the agreement and other things. When I didn't respond for several hours (we had agreed to 2 days), he threatened he was coming back to our house if I didn't contact him. I called him and realize couldn't get much words in but I think I invalidated (defended).

I like boundaries as a word better than limits.  You DO NOT get to limit his activity... .whatsoever.  You DO get to enforce YOUR boundaries.  He gets zero say in that.  Do you see the nuance or the way of thinking?

He doesn't respect the "limits" or "boundaries" because you don't  It appears you set a limit, he pushed against it and when he threatened... .you "lowered" your boundary or limit.    So, in his mind, "she doesn't really mean it."

Think about that.  Only set boundaries you are willing to enforce.


He asked me not to contact him and I said fine and hung up. He then sent another email to meet him face to face or he's moving back home to work in our marriage and sending him the agreement really crossed the line and we're done. (Ugh the illogic is so frustrating.) Sorry for the long post, but here's the point:

He feels controlled and wants to control you.  Now see how he is the one setting the rules... .boundaries... .limits?

Set your boundaries... .and hold them.  Yes you can change them, but do so because you want to, because it is wise, not because of threats.

Try this for threats.

"(insert name), I'm not able to continue this conversation while there are threats between us.  I'll reach out to you tomorrow at 6pm.  I hope there will be less tension between us then"

(no blaming... .it's about you... .and it acknowledges there is a threat and states your value that you won't continue while there is a threat)


  So there should be consequences.

You are not the "hander outer" of consequences.  If he chooses to experience a consequence by smashing himself into a boundary, that is his choice.  You job is to set and hold healthy boundaries.


But I'd also like to keep 16D and I in the house and him at his dad's. More so though I want to deescalate because I'm afraid, so I'm willing to move out with 16D and the dogs and let him live at home. But, will that deescalate anything? He wants to go back to how it was. I can't do that yet and maybe never. Any advice on how to handle this? Enforcing limits vs. deescalation and what will deescalate if we're in such disagreement over limits. Seems an unending circle. Thanks in advance.

Here is where boundaries get tricky.

He gets to move in if he wants to.  You BOTH own it.  You may "request" that he do something else. 

I suggest that you set up therapy so you have someone to "manage" a therapeutic separation.  It's not something for you to try and manage on your own.

You DO get to decide (100%) if you will live with him.  You need to speak with a lawyer and decide if there is enough for a separation or restraining order.  That would force him out... .or keep him out.

or

You get to move out.


Last thought:  "(insert name), my desire is to be part of a process that rebuilds trust in our marriage.  Threats tear apart trust.  I have an appointment with a family therapist on (insert date and time).  I hope you can join me in working on rebuilding trust in our family. "

The important thing is that you go and start the work.  Leave the door open for him to come.  (that is your choice)  He gets to choose to walk through the door or not.

FF
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uniquename
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 07:50:06 AM »

My goal is to stop the emotional abuse. I'd love it if he got help (and me) and we were able to have a healthy relationship whether that's living together or apart.  T is telling me at this point that's very unlikely that it would be together though (and probably never either way) and I know I have to accept that too.

You asked, ":)id he sign the agreement?  Have you shown a lawyer?  :)o you have a lawyer on retainer?"
He didn't sign the agreement. His harassing/threatening was the response. I do have a lawyer on a small retainer. She's the one who wrote the agreement.

This is all good advice I think, FF. Just talked to T and got similar. I definitely am not enforcing boundaries out of fear. I'm going to try harder but be kind to myself even if I lapse.
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 08:12:50 AM »

My goal is to stop the emotional abuse

OK... .you can do that... .100%... .without him. 

What I think you really said or want... .is "I wish he would stop emotionally abusing me... "  Unfortunately, that is not your decision.

I get a sense of where you are at now.

I'm a retired military guy... .so very much into checklists and all that. 

1.  Call your L.  Is there enough here to keep him out of the house?  Make sure she knows about the threats and suicide attempts.  Do you have proof of threats?  Print out and take with.  Take no action, just get information.  Eventually, if the answer is yes you can keep him out, you will have a conversation with hubby that goes like this.

"I'm concerned about the status of our relationship.  Please provide me a signed agreement or a written response by tomorrow at 1pm."   


2.  Call your T.  Ask about who can manage a TS (therapeutic separation).  Likely will be someone other than your T.  Discuss plan on how to best offer the TS.  Regardless, visit this other person a couple times at the appropriate date and time.  Yes... .even if he says I won't be there.  You go.  In my r/s, my wife has threatened several times that she wouldn't go or things like that.  I let her know I would be there working on r/s... .and she showed.  Many times huffing and gruffing... .but she showed.

3.  Think through safety plan... .and practice it.  Have a go bag ready.  Money (cash) and clothes in it for you AND your daughter.  I don't know enough about your daughter to say if you tell her or not.  Need to have wisdom there.  I am 100% sure YOU need to be ready for both of you... and practice.  This means driving to the shelter, actually talking to the people there.  Make sure their numbers are saved in your cell phone.  Disguise the number... just in case.  In other words, "battered women's shelter" is not what you put.  Something odd... "good jelly donuts... "  or "peace and solitude".

Focus more on you... .less on him.  Once you get to threats... .validation is pretty much over.  Not always, but if you are not really good at it... .skip it.  Hold your boundaries.

FF
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uniquename
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 11:09:30 PM »

1. L says can't keep him out of the house legally at this point. May be able to get him removed after the fact. The threats are that he's going to move back home not that he's going to hurt me or 16D physically.

2. Already set this up earlier this week. H was supposed to do last week but didn't cause he didn't think I was ready... .I agreed last weekend I'd make the appointment. We've been separated now for a month but not in concert with a couples therapist.

3. Hoping I won't need this but may put it together tomorrow morning. I agreed to meet H for breakfast at a nearby restaurant. Yeah, I know... .

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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2016, 10:58:29 AM »


2. Already set this up earlier this week. H was supposed to do last week but didn't cause he didn't think I was ready... .I agreed last weekend I'd make the appointment. We've been separated now for a month but not in concert with a couples therapist.

This is good... .this is very good.  What I think I heard here is that both of you are open to going to therapy and/or couples therapy, but there have been some scheduling issues related to "who/what/when/where"... .but none of the scheduling issues have to do with "yes or no".

Do I have this right?


3. Hoping I won't need this but may put it together tomorrow morning. I agreed to meet H for breakfast at a nearby restaurant. Yeah, I know... .


OK... .please look at your language here.  Regarding physical safety and threats... .there is no "hope".  There is preparedness.  Preparedness will give you confidence, confidence will help change your demeanor into a confident, assertive person that can uphold boundaries.  Those boundaries (as long as they are healthy) will provide the structure that may allow your relationship to flourish again.

Hopefully when you met from breakfast you can talk about things other than the relationship.  Enjoy being together.  Many times "doing" a relationship is more important than talking about it.

Looking forward to hearing about the breakfast.  Just got back from one with my wife.

FF
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 08:22:14 AM »

Excerpt
What I think I heard here is that both of you are open to going to therapy and/or couples therapy, but there have been some scheduling issues related to "who/what/when/where"... .but none of the scheduling issues have to do with "yes or no".

Do I have this right?
I've always been a yes. He could have scheduled it but told me he decided I was not being truthful about that so didn't. I asked if he wanted me to do it and he said yes so I did. It sounds like we're both yeses, but no it wasn't a scheduling issue. Letting it go if he shows and participates.

Excerpt
OK... .please look at your language here.  Regarding physical safety and threats... .there is no "hope".  There is preparedness.

Working on it. Worked out a place to stay if needed yesterday. This is very hard for me to act rationally on this fear as I'm wanting him to be right that it is irrational. He has not threatened violence explicitly... .geez, trying to defend this convinces me you're right. Goal for the next few days - pack a go bag.

Excerpt
Looking forward to hearing about breakfast.

It went ok. My best case scenario was he signed the completely enforceable legal document giving me exclusive use of the house and sole custody of 16D. Second was he would sign the maybe not as easy to enforce legal document giving me just exclusive use. My worst case was physical abuse. My second worst was emotional abuse to the point where I leave.

We got somewhere in the middle. He agreed to stop threatening me with entering the house and only come with prearrangement and permission. If he breaks this agreement by 7/27 (our couples therapy appointment), he'll come with the signed version of the less likely to be enforceable but still helpful legal document giving exclusive use. We also agreed to talk about signing the agreements (and legal agreements in general) in couples therapy.

I read your reply about "doing the relationship" as he was emailing me the agreement we made so I had it in writing. Your advice felt right so although we had talked a bit before of just catching up on our lives, it was very tense. So I asked if he wanted to just hang a little more and talk after he was done writing. We did and it seemed he enjoyed that. He asked before he hugged me goodbye and that was really nice. I kissed him on the cheek. We reiterated he was not to contact me before Thursday but he dropped the request that I not contact him.

So I get an email from him this morning he signed up for Uber and "needs to know" that he used my name as a reference that he's a good driver. A**hole broke in less than 24 hours. Consequence? No response from me, right? (I don't know how else to deal.)

Yesterday I told him 16D and I are enjoying Pokemon Go. He had been posting critical stuff of players and the game before that on FB. This morning he posted an idea of a video game that you go around driving over Pokemon Go players. Yeah... .

Well, I had my best night sleep in a month last night. <sigh>
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2016, 12:18:29 PM »


You did good.  It sounds like the talks went ok about r/s stuff. 

No need to respond to his uber email.  He listed you as reference, unless you are not ok with this... just let it go.

You keep your part of the agreement... .never mention this again.

I suggest that you suggest low contact, vice no contact.  Or that you limit LC to "business and logistics".
Let him know that you need time to heal, but there is a business and logistics side to things... .and make sure you let him know you deeply appreciate his efforts to provide, via uber and other methods

Skip any mention of breaking a NC agreement.

You are doing good here... .I'm glad you got a good nights sleep.

It might be a good idea to start a new thread about first MC session.  Talk about your goals... .talk about what to talk about and what to stay away from.  Basically... .I hope you can manage expectations.

FF
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