Paul Elam and mens rights

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

These videos help me.  He talks about women but it applies to men with BPD as well I'm sure.  Hope they help you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dXabMP5liQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTSByNW8H_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn-sQWVxPls

[NewTring]

These videos help me.  He talks about women but it applies to men with BPD as well I'm sure.  Hope they help you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dXabMP5liQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTSByNW8H_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn-sQWVxPls

[Skip]

Hi Tring,

I wanted to share some information from senor members a bit ahead of your in the recovery cycle.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273744.0

I also encourage you to listen to this clip:

click here to see video clip 3:37

Paul Elam is a pretty powerful speaker. He gives you some real insight into the huge backlash he has received for his views. He spends the first 4 minutes of the video saying he doesn't care and proclaims that all those that don't agree with him are mentally ill. He then goes on to compare BPD to meth addicts, pedophiles, and arsonists and offers the gold standard solution - get them out of your life.

Do we need videos for this?

I don't agree with the extremism of his views - not because they are not sympathetic to those with mental illness - but because they are out-of-touch with why we suffer.

First, my guess is that if you encountered a pedophile or arsonist, you would not need a video to help you decide if you want them intimately in your life. Secondly, after you kicked them out of your life, I don't think you would grieve the loss very much - or struggle to connect with others going forward.

The reason you are here is you lost someone/something that you loved and it hurts. Many were attracted to their partner because they provided personal rejuvenation. When the "wheels started coming off the cart" and we realized that the rejuvenation was built on a relationship with someone with highly exaggerated/impulsive emotions (up and down) we struggled to make sense of it all. Why did our partner behave they way they did? Why did I keep trying to make a go of a clearly flawed relationship? Why am I empty now?

Making sense of it all is why we are here. An important part of that is the step where we let down the self-protective barriers and start to see the two parts of this dance - theirs and ours. Remember, it's not the bottle of Jack Daniels that made the alcoholic- its his addictive personality.

It's not comfortable. Being a passive victim is much easier - that damned "Jack Daniels". Next time I see it, I'll run. 

It's not comfortable facing ourselves. It takes getting past the narcissistic wound we suffered from - and that is no small feat. It takes time and we must first process our pain.

I'm not suggesting that you short cut that process (wound recovery). I am suggesting that you point yourself in the direction of the sun and walk toward it.

Paul Elam is suggesting you walk away from it.

Skip

[NewTring]

Paul Elam made the disclaimer that his talk is for victims (me, others on this site) of those involved with BPDs.  If BPD's are sufferers of their own mental illness, then go get help.  Otherwise, they are abusers.

I will be on heightened awareness when I meet someone with traits of BPD.  I'd run for the hills.  That's what Paul Elam is saying and I agree with him.

Unless I'm already in a relationship with them, I'd set healthy boundaries and be prepared to walk away, which is something Paul Elam also says.  This website also suggests setting healthy boundaries.

Giving into the BPD only enables them to victimize us more.

[steelwork]

I've been here for a few rounds of this discussion--where a member posts a link to a video of this type. They always seem to have the same overall message: you were victimized, run for the hills, here's how to spot the next one before he/she victimizes you.

I guess there are some people who go through a stage where that kind of message is calming or feels healing. I haven't. Maybe it's coming, I don't know, but I think the problem is that it feels like empowerment, so it obviates the need for actual empowerment, which is pretty much always a matter of self-reflection.

Another problem, it seems, is that maintaining that hostile stance toward pwBPD requires the "expert" to do a lot of generalizing and conflating of various types of mental illness, so it works against the goal of learning more about the disorder.

[Skip]

Paul Elam made the disclaimer that his talk is for victims (me, others on this site) of those involved with BPDs.  

I speak for the members here, too. No one else.

I'd set healthy boundaries and be prepared to walk away, which is something Paul Elam also says.  This website also suggests setting healthy boundaries.

Giving into the BPD only enables them to victimize us more.

Having healthy values and recognizing a healthy vs unhealthy relationship is is very important. Yes.

I'd add that 29% of the population has a mental illness of some type. When does it become apparent in a new relationship?

I would white knight the crap our to save the relationship.  Sounds familiar?

Your relationship broke up every five weeks... .

She threw tantrums over little things, was extremely jealous, she had taken off twice, she wanted you to cutoff your cousin... .

You accused her of having BPD, took off in the middle of the night to stay at a cousins house, she followed and you locked yourself in the room while she stood there for 3 hours... .

And now you feel angry and depressed... .

Let me ask the hardest questions:

  Why didn't you call it quits after the second, third, etc. breakup?

  When did it stop seeming like a healthy relationship?

Let's walk it back.

[Mutt]

If BPD's are sufferers of their own mental illness, then go get help.

That's fair, we all have different levels of self-awareness, same goes for a pwBPD, some people are not aware that they suffer from a mental illness, some people are diagnosed with a mental illness and don't believe that they are mentally ill. I agree with that, if you're diagnosed with a mental illness, you have a responsibility to help yourself.

[NewTring]

  Why didn't you call it quits after the second, third, etc. breakup?

  When did it stop seeming like a healthy relationship?

Let's walk it back.

I quit once last summer  and she kept hanging on and was quiet for the most part for a few months.  I was traumatized and only communicated with her over text.  Then I talked to her on the phone after a few months of peace and things got worse.

This last time she quit on me, blaming me, saying I couldn't cutoff my cousin to prove my loyalty to her.  It didn't make sense to me.  My cousin hadn't done anything that horrible to deserved to be cutoff.  

I felt it was unhealthy last summer.  My gut told me.  But I gave it another go because I thought she had changed when she was quiet for a few months, quiet meaning control her anger.  BPD, issues, insecurities, jealousies, loneliness in the Canadian winter, whatever it is, I suggested we both go counseling but she wouldn't go.  

So I went by myself and therapist suggested she has BPD.  I was fighting an unfair battle where she had the emotional control and yes, I got desperate and told her she had symptoms of BPD.    She then blew up.  And like Elam and his guest-host said,  telling a BPD they have BPD will make it worse, they'll just blame you.  

I suggested we go counseling together again. No.  I flew across the ocean to patch things up with her.  Nope.  she was still mad.  Before this I had flown up to Canada from California to save the relationship a couple times.

What I should've done is tell her, "hey, cutting off my cousin is unhealthy.  We can go to counseling."  And then be prepared to walk away.

[NewTring]

If BPD's are sufferers of their own mental illness, then go get help.

That's fair, we all have different levels of self-awareness, same goes for a pwBPD, some people are not aware that they suffer from a mental illness, some people are diagnosed with a mental illness and don't believe that they are mentally ill. I agree with that, if you're diagnosed with a mental illness, you have a responsibility to help yourself.

Fairness is not something BPD's understand.  From my experience, their actions are driven by emotions since their emotions are so strong and sensitive.  

Does it have to be diagnosed for them to take action?  A family member or loved one or just a friend who tells them should signal them to be responsible and look into it.  But no, it only angers them for they cannot take constructive criticism and be responsible, as Paul Elam states.

If BPD's understood fairness and responsibility none of use would be on this forum.  this forum wouldn't exist.

And then, at the end of it, they blame you.

[Mutt]

Does it have to be diagnosed for them to take action?  A family member or loved one or just a friend who tells them should signal them to be responsible and look into it.  But no, it only angers them for they cannot take constructive criticism and be responsible, as Paul Elam states.

Let's turn that the other way around. If you were told that you were mentally ill from a loved one, how would you feel? I'd feel angry that someone would make an accusation that I was mentally ill. I think that it helps that loved ones learn about what their loved one is going through so that person doesn't feel like they're going through it alone.

BPD carries a social stigma, the most difficult personality disorder, often it has a concurrent clinical depression, you could suggest that a loved one get checked for anxiety and depression. In 2016, depression is more socially acceptable than BPD, that may get a loved one to seek help and get things moving in the right direction.

Did you tell your ex that she should get help?

[joeramabeme]

Does it have to be diagnosed for them to take action?  A family member or loved one or just a friend who tells them should signal them to be responsible and look into it.  But no, it only angers them for they cannot take constructive criticism and be responsible, as Paul Elam states.

NewTring - Your points are valid and well taken.  There is no doubt that pwBPD have many difficulties that go unaddressed.  As Skip pointed out: "it's not the bottle of Jack Daniels that made the alcoholic- its his addictive personality."

Said another way, J.D. is harmless to me because I don't drink it.  The bottle is simply just that, a bottle.  Just like a pwBPD is simply that.  What I choose to do with that is MY problem. 

I think the short message is that the core of healing is; a pwBPD cannot do anything to me that I do not allow them to do -so why did I choose to allow it?

NONE of this dismisses the illness or corresponding symptoms and manifestations.  It simply puts it into a personalized context of helping understand why I was involved in the first place.

Believe me, I am a year out since my ex left and still struggle and react a LOT!  But I get the principle that I cannot change her, no matter how much I want, which leaves me with only one other alternative.

JRB

[Lilyroze]

  NewTring,

You and I both are suffering physical right now due to the abuse.

I spent so much of my life people pleasing, trying to make things better for my UNBPD Mom, sbxUNBPD, they are never wrong, nothing wrong with them, won't seek help.

Ex now even told me something is wrong with him, wants help and counseling to back to nothing wrong with him all me. The board tools and articles can bring you back to the facts, make you focus and keep it sane. To realize again it is not me.

I should note sweet lots of marriage as long as I was doing everything, taking care of all, making all decisions ( so he could blame later) taking care of him as he was "sick" physically. Minute he was better, and I or the kids had needs, knew he wasn't dying and could expect help, well... .When I set  boundaries, then off to the races, rage, deregulation, abuse, cheating, not there for kids and I. This board helped me face his illness, selfishness, and abuse.

I would like to see him get help, but alas can't force him.

I have tried to be the bigger one, read every help book out there, worked in DV, should have walked from this abuse. Should have seen no matter what I did, how I did it, they would rage, make me the scape goat, silent treatment, hurt, and abuse.

I have to say I have seen the Dr.'s that say it is abuse and is, make no mistake. I wondered about this board as well. But the tools, articles, posts, posters, have been a life saver. Why? They made me face why did I put up with it?
Also when am I going to put my health, my welfare first and his drama and chaos aside? Only I can do that.  As he will always have some, that is what he wants and needs.

I can be told it is abuse and to walk, I have told others that in DV court. I can walk. But I matter, I deserve respect, integrity and honor. I always thought I got that, and did... .LOL from others!

There are a few in my life that need boundaries, needed to and need to be held accountable for their actions, needed to stop the rages. I needed to do that for me.

So that I can then have that in future. Self love, and self respect are important but sometimes just walking away doesn't do that. You still have guilt, did I help enough, are they OK? What did I do to deserve it?

 Now realizing the mental illness for what it is again like nailing jello to the wall. It doesn't matter what you do, how you do it some of them will always be about themselves, won't fix it or acknowledge it. Once I found a name for what they had, and the tools it was like my life changed in an instant true   moment.

Some want to stay in these relationships so the board and tools are there so at least you don't go off a cliff trying. Can learn validating, what to expect, and how to be better in dealing with it.  

You see it over and over on this board the hurt, destruction. Then low and behold someone will come and say he treats his wife like this and she deserves it, but KNOW he loves me... . so I guess they need the tools to stay until they realize the wife didn't deserve it, and they are next.

Sorry you are hurting. Give the articles, posters here, the posts, the tools and books recommended a chance. It will lead you on a healing journey, self discovery of why you put up with it, healing your inner child, learning the tools for a better relationship. Then listen to the anger of some Dr.'s and walk. But walk with the tools and healing in place.

 

[NewTring]

Does it have to be diagnosed for them to take action?  A family member or loved one or just a friend who tells them should signal them to be responsible and look into it.  But no, it only angers them for they cannot take constructive criticism and be responsible, as Paul Elam states.

Did you tell your ex that she should get help?

Yes I told her she should get help.  I said we can go together before I found out about BPD.  She refused.  Once she was going to go but I made the mistake of telling her the symptoms of BPD and she looked it up and got mad I thought she has BPD.  Then she gave up.

It was baffling why she threw tantrums over things I wouldn't have.  Her tantrums/rages were real so sometimes I thought it was actually my fault when she blamed me.  then I would white-knight.

It's been enlightening to see it wasn't me for the most part.  If I had to put a % on it, it' was 80% her and 20% me.  But that 20% is only a reaction to her 80% - her 80% that created the drama.

[Mutt]

I can relate with that, I told my exBPDw that she has BPD and she got angry. I just wanted her to get help because I cared and I wanted her to get better for the kids.

That said, BPD has defensive mechanisms that protect the ego and a pwBPD will project their feelings and actions on others. I was almost convinced that I was the problem, I felt like I was going crazy but it didn't make sense that I was always at fault. That's good to hear that you're not taking the lion's share of the blame. It helps to learn about BPD psychopathology to make sense of why our exes behave the way that they do and we can depersonalize the behaviors.

I'd like to echo Lilyroze about facing ourselves, there's a lot to learn about these relationships when we take a look in the mirror. I'm glad that you decided to join us. I'd like to say welcome to the family. I'll leave you at that.

[ForeverDad]

We generally encourage our members not to put a name or label to the behaviors.  The professionals probably don't want us to 'play doctor'.  But at least we can know for ourselves what we're facing and have found resources to help us better ourselves, our communications and our boundaries.  It's too triggering for many pwBPD to hear 'BPD', their Denial and Blame-Shifting is that intense.  Some therapists don't even tell their patients what they believe they're suffering with, the counseling is less opposed that way.

Over the years my now-Ex gradually developed stronger BPD traits.  I innocently thought having a child would make her happy.  It didn't, but it did make the later divorce immensely more complicated due to the custody and parenting struggles.  I now call it The Lost Decade, what with the final two years, the divorce and the custody conflict.  Even now I still can't hold a decent conversation with her without her blaming.  No one in or out of court used the BPD label, though I'm sure some in the mental health field knew or suspected.  Instead they all focused on the behaviors and ways to deal with them, that's what we encourage here.

[NewTring]

I can relate with that, I told my exBPDw that she has BPD and she got angry. I just wanted her to get help because I cared and I wanted her to get better for the kids.

Yup, as Paul Elam says, don't tell a BPD they have BPD and get help.  We would think hey, let's go counseling and fix this.  They'll flip it around and blame us.  They've been caught so get defensive.

I read another article, there's a more compassionate way to tell them.  Like take them on a long drive.  Or as my therapist said, "Let's go to counseling to resolve our conflicts."

[NewTring]

if someone told me I was crazy I'd look into the validity of their statement.  I'm open to constructive criticism.  What is their intent?  Self improvement is a good thing.

[ForeverDad]

if someone told me I was crazy I'd look into the validity of their statement.  I'm open to constructive criticism.  What is their intent?  Self improvement is a good thing.

But you are very different from your spouse.  What makes sense and triggers reflection and investigation in you is instead perceived by your spouse as an attack and triggers overreactions, blame shifting, push back and more.

Don't get stuck thinking, "It makes sense to me so why doesn't it make sense to my spouse?"  Her perceptions are distorted by her dysfunctional, inconsistent and even erratic thinking.  It can be described, somewhat predicted and even written up in textbooks but it still doesn't make common sense.  That's why it is termed mental illness.  Sure, it may not be enough for her to be committed, but the close relationships will be immensely impacted.  Why would you think that mental illness ought to "make sense"?

[pjstock42]

I really like some of this guy's videos but I can definitely see how his viewpoints would rub some people the wrong way, strong senses of MGTOW/MRA stuff laced in there for sure.

The one video that really helped me was "What Men Fear The Most". It talks about how more than anything, men fear losing the love of a woman and the lengths they will go to prevent that fear from becoming reality. Obviously, this stuff is made immensely more complex when you throw in all of the BPD stuff on top of it but that video really hit close to home for me and made me take a good luck at myself and understand the things that scare me the most.

In my prior relationship before this BPD experience, I stayed with the person far longer than I really should have because the fear of her not caring about me anymore seemed like something that I would never be able to face. That relationship went through the normal distancing/degradation process before ending so even though it was difficult, it at least made sense. With my BPD ex, it was "I love you so much" then an hour later "I moved out and it's over" so the shock and trauma of that was not something that I was prepared to deal with and has made things very difficult to process. I think Paul Elam is right in terms of how great my fear was in regards to this person no longer caring about me or being a part of my life but now that I have faced that and I'm still here, what couldn't I face head on and persevere through?

[NewTring]

if someone told me I was crazy I'd look into the validity of their statement.  I'm open to constructive criticism.  What is their intent?  Self improvement is a good thing.

  Why would you think that mental illness ought to "make sense"?

Nope BPDs don't make sense and so they need to go and get help.  Sad thing is they won't.