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NotThatGuy
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Respect and trust
«
on:
July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM »
My relationship has stabilized, and we're working on some core issues for both of us. We're each in therapy (she's doing DBT) and we're working on couples therapy with a counselor who has a good grasp on each of our tendencies and limitations. But I keep circling back to the issues of trust and respect.
I've always believed that a good relationship, and anything that could be called "love" has to be based on mutual trust and respect. I'm struggling to understand what this means with a BPD partner. For me, trust has always meant usually being able to believe what someone says (the content, not just believe that they meant it at the time), and being reasonably confident that they won't hurt me on purpose. Respect has meant supporting the person's goals and being able and willing to work with them to achieve them.
I don't know how to reconcile this with a partner who will say anything that feels true to her in the moment, and will lash out at me without a second thought, or any apparent remorse, if she feels I've hurt her. The goals she admits to are constantly shifting sea based on what feels most important to her right now. Looking closely, her underlying goals seem to be based on controlling and receiving unquestioning validation from others, especially me and our young kids. Her ability to respect and trust me seems to be dependent on my obedience to her, and on my not questioning anything she says or does.
I'm not comfortable trying to redefine "respect" as believing in her ability to recover from an illness she doesn't think she has, and do things she doesn't want to do (though I do believe she can recover, and will be happier for it). I feel queasy even thinking about how to rationalize "trust" for someone who often considers me the aggressor, and who says I don't care enough about her feelings or well-being. It feels paternalistic and codependent, and like I'm invalidating her entire worldview. Which, of course, I am, because I can't make sense of her beliefs based on what I observe.
Am I missing something here? Is there another angle I could look at this from more productively? Is trusting and respecting your partner an unlikely goal when your partner is borderline? And, if that's so, how is a healthy relationship possible?
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schwing
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #1 on:
July 18, 2016, 02:04:48 PM »
Quote from: NotThatGuy on July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM
Is there another angle I could look at this from more productively? Is trusting and respecting your partner an unlikely goal when your partner is borderline? And, if that's so, how is a healthy relationship possible?
I think a good way of looking at this would be from the perspective of understanding the capabilities, limitations and challenges of your BPD loved one. You write that she is currently doing Dialectical Behavioral Therapy; I think it would be in your interest to understand what is involved in the therapy. I don't know if you can directly participate in the DBT but even by looking at whatever materials (i.e. DBT workbook/handbook -- some are available online) you can get your hands on, you can better understand what people with BPD (pwBPD) find challenging about managing their emotional states.
If you can see that your BPD loved one is committed and dedicated with learning and improving the skills she's learning in DBT, that is a good cause to trust. If you don't understand how behaviors that you (and I) take for granted, that are difficult for pwBPD, then it is difficult to maintain respect in someone you might other wise expect parity.
It would be like expecting a disabled partner to keep up with you in a normal physical activity without understanding the disability. That would be unhealthy.
Quote from: NotThatGuy on July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM
I'm struggling to understand what this means with a BPD partner.
To truly understand, I think you need to understand it from the perspective of the pwBPD. And I think this is not a small thing to be asked of.
Quote from: NotThatGuy on July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM
For me, trust has always meant usually being able to believe what someone says (the content, not just believe that they meant it at the time), and being reasonably confident that they won't hurt me on purpose.
How would you "trust" a loved one that is an alcoholic, or an addict? If you cannot, I won't judge you. I think trusting a pwBPD would be similar. You cannot only trust in what they say. You must trust in what they do. Because there may be a time when what they do flies in direct conflict with what they say, and you will need to act accordingly.
Quote from: NotThatGuy on July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM
I don't know how to reconcile this with a partner who will say anything that feels true to her in the moment, and will lash out at me without a second thought, or any apparent remorse, if she feels I've hurt her.
The degree in which this happens may change depending on the progress your BPD loved one makes in DBT. She may make some progress. She may backtrack on that progress. She might give up on it. Or she might re-double her efforts after some small failures. All of this would be difficult if she had the added pressure of knowing that if she doesn't make sufficient progress, it might cost her your relationship. But then you should also consider, is she in DBT for you or for herself?
Quote from: NotThatGuy on July 18, 2016, 12:58:57 PM
I'm not comfortable trying to redefine "respect" as believing in her ability to recover from an illness she doesn't think she has, and do things she doesn't want to do (though I do believe she can recover, and will be happier for it). I feel queasy even thinking about how to rationalize "trust" for someone who often considers me the aggressor, and who says I don't care enough about her feelings or well-being. It feels paternalistic and codependent, and like I'm invalidating her entire worldview. Which, of course, I am, because I can't make sense of her beliefs based on what I observe.
I think it is wholly appropriate to consider what your needs are in a relationship at least as much as you might consider what her needs are.
Best wishes,
Schwing
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ArleighBurke
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #2 on:
July 18, 2016, 06:08:11 PM »
Wow schwing - nice answers!
I agree - I'm not sure I "trust" my uBPDw. In a lot of ways I treat her like a child - I extend "trust", but I always have a backup because I know she'll probably fail. I guess I see that as the same way i would educate a child.
I try to respect her - as an individual. I don't respect a lot of choices she makes - but I try to remember that she's doing the best she can. Her choices come from a place of managing a pain/longing so deep that i cannot comprehend it.
And i do love her. I have a bond for life. She will push me away, act out, accuse me of anything and not return my affection, but she is like a sister/child to me. And I think that only comes from accepting her as "damaged", and completely not taking anything personally.
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teapay
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #3 on:
July 19, 2016, 06:05:52 AM »
Your squeamishness and inability to reconcile your view of respect and trust with that of your W suggests that her view is banging up against one of your personal values. I don’t see anything wrong with your held value of respect and trust. I hold it too and see no reason to change it. It is what I value and arguments against it have not swayed me. My W’s view is very similar to your W’s view. She sees disagreements with her in anyway as dire personal attacks, insults and condescension. I see my W’s view for what it is—a cognitive distortion. It would be difficult for me to twist myself away from my values and still be happy and at peace. It is not going to happen. I also don’t see validating this core view of my W as helpful either. It is not tenable with life in general and reinforcing will not assist her in learning different. Hopeful in DBT and other therapy she can overcome it.
Where does that leave me? As I mentioned, I don’t validate this stuff and make know my values and why I hold them. This might be JADEing, but I’m okay with that. It is what I believe and value and she needs to know that and where I stand and that I’m not a push over. I don’t go out of my way, though, in this. Only when I am attacked. Otherwise try not to invalidate her in general and try to validate her when I can, particularly if it doesn’t impact me and/or is healthy and positive for her. I also maintain my boundaries and initiate consequences if they are trespassed, so she knows where I stand on things, what I won’t tolerate and that I will respond. If she doesn’t like it and we split, so be it, but to a large extend that is up to her.
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waverider
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #4 on:
July 20, 2016, 07:14:56 AM »
This is a difficult one. it is difficult because you are basing it on what you deem as "normal" and a projected "recovery" stage.
Trust
is largely based on what you know is possible and likely. Trust is ability to believe in the reality you see and can likely predict, not defined by what someone else says or promises to do. I can trust that my wife is likely to make up an excuse to get out of XYZ, it does not take me by surprise that her reality is not the same as mine which is based on empirical evidence of what has happened in the past.
An analogy: someone with a serious physical disability tells you that by the end of the week they will be able to walk across the room, you know this is extremely unlikely. Are they betraying your trust?
Do I believe my wife will always tell the absolute truth and not have underlying motives? Certainly not, and most of it is transparent. Even if these untruths are not immediately obvious I am fully aware of their likely existence. Most of the issues are petty and totally pointless in an almost compulsive way. This aspect i no longer have an issue with as it is so blatantly part of an illness.
Respect
to me comes from selfless effort regardless of results. This is one area I really struggle with, and at times I feel I am left stooping to patronizing levels just trying to assign signs of selfless effort, rather than just pity and sympathy.
Still working on this aspect...
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NotThatGuy
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #5 on:
July 21, 2016, 10:00:37 AM »
Thanks very much everybody. Schwing, that is very helpful. I do know a bit about DBT, and have used some of the peripheral materials-- no formal groups, but have found it very useful. I know better, but I still forget to think of BPD as a disabling illness over which the sufferer has no control. So much of it seems volitional, that I fall in to thinking of willingness, instead of ability.
Teapay, a lot of it is values stuff. I value honesty and integrity very highly and, while my wife endorses the same values system, her actions are based around primary values of security and control/autonomy. I’m only now beginning to sort this out from the garden variety falling-short-of-our-highest-ideals that all of us are vulnerable to: that she doesn’t accurately represent objective(ish) reality because she values other things more highly, rather than because she sometimes doesn’t live up to her own goals. Though, of course, it’s some of both, ultimately.
The question isn’t whether I can live with this in an intimate partner, because I have chosen to, so I must, and I will-- I just don’t know *how*. I don’t want my own values to be so rigid that they prevent me from doing what I believe to be best, but loosening up on something so fundamental is not easy.
And WilliamsKevin, I’m not sure I could do that. I feel quite attached to my wife, despite our difficulties-- I feel great affection and compassion towards her, and I want only good things for her. But without trust or respect, I don’t know that I can call it love.
Waverider, that view of trust is very useful. It’s some of what I’ve been struggling towards, I think. Because I *know* her, I do trust her actions to be largely predictable, just in conflict with what she says. I try to see her speech as action, rather than communication: i.e., she says she hates me and wants a divorce because she’s feeling angry, scared, hurt, abandoned, not because she actually does hate me and want a divorce (30 minutes later she’ll admit that she doesn’t usually feel that way). If I can manage that view, I can empathize, and not take her outbursts as more than they are.
Maybe it’s mostly the intersection of trust and respect I’m having trouble with: having respect for someone whose word I cannot trust, though their actions are generally trustworthy. Maybe I’m just clinging to the centrality of factual communication as a defense mechanism of my own.
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waverider
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #6 on:
July 21, 2016, 05:49:33 PM »
An interesting analogy is someone who is color blind, they have never seen the colors the way you have and struggle to differentiate. They are ashamed of it and have developed a survival nature of covering it up and denying it.
You ask them what color something was, they say yellow, even though you know different. They may think it as your interpretation of yellow, it is the best guess to avoid being shown up as colorblind, and getting best response from you. Some colors they can identify others they cant.
If you dont know they are color blind, you think they are just a compulsive liar and dont trust them. If you know they are colorblind and ashamed of it, you simply trust that they are just guessing, might be right, might be close, or could simply be a wild guess.
Trust is about our ability to accurately asses the reality that surrounds us, not someone elses representation.
A scorpion is still a scorpion and it is likely to sting you, that is its nature and you can trust that is a risk you take in picking one up. Doesn't mean the scorpion is evil.
Problem is we still hold a BPD accountable to non standards of conduct... This is the never ending fail mark that a pwBPD lives with, that undermines and consolidates BPD traits in the first place. Faking things is a learned survival tool.
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NotThatGuy
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #7 on:
July 21, 2016, 06:11:15 PM »
Quote from: waverider on July 21, 2016, 05:49:33 PM
. . .
A scorpion is still a scorpion and it is likely to sting you, that is its nature and you can trust that is a risk you take in picking one up. Doesn't mean the scorpion is evil. . .
Well, no, but I still wouldn't go to bed with it.
It's not a question of evil, it's a question of what I do and don't think is an acceptable personal (emotional) risk. I sort of figure that if I can say I "trust" a scorpion, it makes trust useless as a value. I mean, I trust my mom to get drunk, drive too fast, spend too much, and treat me with contempt and cruelty-- but I haven't spoken to her in 10 years and I have no plans to do so any time soon.
I'd like to have a higher standard of trust for my wife than for scorpions or toxic parents (and I can, it's just threshold stuff that's at issue).
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waverider
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #8 on:
July 21, 2016, 09:36:49 PM »
Can you accept what you can predict.?
Or do your predictions fall short of what you can accept?
How accurately can you predict your wife?
Some people can handle uncertainty, some can't.
These are factors that help you determine that threshold.
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NotThatGuy
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #9 on:
July 22, 2016, 08:22:32 AM »
Quote from: waverider on July 21, 2016, 09:36:49 PM
Can you accept what you can predict.?
Or do your predictions fall short of what you can accept?
How accurately can you predict your wife?
Some people can handle uncertainty, some can't.
These are factors that help you determine that threshold.
Mmm. I do not love uncertainty. I am quite good at predicting, and I know my wife well (we've been together for 9 years, married for 7). She manages an unpleasant surprise sometimes, but its fairly rare, and notably bad when it happens. The discomfort with uncertainty is something I'm working on, accepting that it's true right now, and finding opportunities to sit with that feeling mindfully. Some of the things I know to expect from her are behaviors I would prefer not to face in an intimate partner, but they are what they are, and I can accept that.
Thanks. This has been helpful.
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BestVersionOfMe
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Re: Respect and trust
«
Reply #10 on:
July 22, 2016, 08:41:57 AM »
How long has your relationship been "stabilized" would you say? I know that in my own experience a lot of the eruptions or attacks or sh*t tests started to dissipate the more I validated and listened to her "struggles." The less I reacted to her words, the less she would engage in the behavior. In many ways it is like dealing with children. Picture in your mind the mother standing in line at a grocery store with her 5 year old. The 5 year old is making a scene and asking for a candy bar and the mom says "no." The kid makes an even bigger scene and the mom gives in to the 5 year old and gives the child a candy bar just to shut him up for the moment. What does the 5 year old learn? It is the same thing when living with someone with BPD. They will behave in extreme ways to be "heard" when they feel the need. If they feel "heard" during relatively healthy interactions and conversations, the pressure cooker release valve remains open and the eruptions tend to dissipate. For example this morning, my wife couldn't find her running watch because she simply doesn't have a place for all of her belongings and it could be in any number of places throughout the house. So she was running upstairs and back downstairs frustrated and angry that she couldn't find it. Her struggle was real, very real. In the past I would watch this behavior and say something like, "Honey, I just don't understand why you don't put things away in the same place so that this doesn't happen so much." Ultra invalidating. Now I say things like, "Hmmmm. That sucks honey. Did you try the medicine cabinet?" She felt understood and hear, pressure cooker release valve remained open and we started off our day connected and happy.
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NotThatGuy
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Re: Respect and trust
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Reply #11 on:
July 22, 2016, 09:37:40 AM »
Quote from: BestVersionOfMe on July 22, 2016, 08:41:57 AM
How long has your relationship been "stabilized" would you say? I know that in my own experience a lot of the eruptions or attacks or sh*t tests started to dissipate the more I validated and listened to her "struggles." The less I reacted to her words, the less she would engage in the behavior. . .
That's definitely been the case for us. She's been in DBT a couple of months (though they're on hiatus at the moment, which isn't great), and we've probably gone 1-2 months without a days long major eruption. I've been validating and maintaining my limits consistantly for 6ish months. The limits resulted in some major escalation at first.
We've got some concrete things that we have to work on, though, which are very difficult for her. She's very attached to being a SAHM and wants to homeschool. Our oldest is turning 5 and, while I'd been totally on board with homeschooling in theory, I now feel strongly that our kids will be better off in formal school. My wife is looking at going back to work, which I support and think is a great idea-- she agrees its necessary, but resents having to do it. So while we're stable at the moment, we've got challenges coming that I will probably not be able to remain present and validating while she works through.
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