Question about gaslighting

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Today, someone in mi life asked me if its still  considered gaslighting if it's not working. I wasn't sure what to say.

My ex never made me feel crazy. I always knew who the weird one was. I loved her but never accepted her delusions as anything of substance. No matter how much she ignored my texts, calls, avoided questions, etc, she would always find a way to point the finger in my direction, with no substance of course. I would just let her. After all that wasn't the weirdest thing she did. But I guess after she had painted me black she really over did it.
No matter what has or is happening, I'm in someway a bad prescription not sympathizing with her situation. Omg, I just don't get her struggles blah blah blah. Which is why I NEVER WANT TO HEAR FROM HER AGAIN. I know what she's doing. It's not original. Anyway

Is it still considered gaslighting if it's not working?


Sorry for the caps, last night she told me she's in love with a guys who taught her how to be a lady of the night. She said at the time she really believed he truly loved her but then she saw what he was doing. All of a sudden she's in love with her p

[FallBack!Monster]

Today, someone in mi life asked me if its still  considered gaslighting if it's not working. I wasn't sure what to say.

My ex never made me feel crazy. I always knew who the weird one was. I loved her but never accepted her delusions as anything of substance. No matter how much she ignored my texts, calls, avoided questions, etc, she would always find a way to point the finger in my direction, with no substance of course. I would just let her. After all that wasn't the weirdest thing she did. But I guess after she had painted me black she really over did it.
No matter what has or is happening, I'm in someway a bad prescription not sympathizing with her situation. Omg, I just don't get her struggles blah blah blah. Which is why I NEVER WANT TO HEAR FROM HER AGAIN. I know what she's doing. It's not original. Anyway

Is it still considered gaslighting if it's not working?


Sorry for the caps, last night she told me she's in love with a guys who taught her how to be a lady of the night. She said at the time she really believed he truly loved her but then she saw what he was doing. All of a sudden she's in love with her p

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey FBM-

To be clear, gaslighting is psychological abuse in which someone is manipulated into doubting their own memory, perception and/or sanity.  That differs in motivation from projection, for example, which is done to offload emotions someone can't deal with or doesn't like, onto someone else.  Borderlines typically have the motivation to soothe their own emotions, and while their partner could accept the projection, that is not gaslighting.

So 'attempted gaslighting' might be the label for an attempt at manipulation that isn't working.  And do you know your ex's motivation?  You say she never made you crazy, and did she try?

[FallBack!Monster]

Hey FBM-

To be clear, gaslighting is psychological abuse in which someone is manipulated into doubting their own memory, perception and/or sanity.  That differs in motivation from projection, for example, which is done to offload emotions someone can't deal with or doesn't like, onto someone else.  Borderlines typically have the motivation to soothe their own emotions, and while their partner could accept the projection, that is not gaslighting.

So 'attempted gaslighting' might be the label for an attempt at manipulation that isn't working.  And do you know your ex's motivation?  You say she never made you crazy, and did she try?

No I don't think she tried to drive me crazy.  I think she tried to make me doubt myself. Doubt my eyes, feelings, emotions, doubt facts, the obvious, etc. But I always called her on it. After a while, I got tired and let her tell her stories without agreeing or disagreeing. I said, let her be herself. My mind had already been made. And what you said about projection that was evident, even to her every time I called her on it.

After a while, I could tell her projection was her way of confessing,, with a smile on her face. 

Thanks

[once removed]

hi FallBack!Monster,

just wanted to share these previous posts on the term "gaslighting" as they say it a bit better than i can, and may offer some clarity on your experience:

"Gaslighting" is phrase coined after the movie of a sane but criminal mind deliberately causing another person to question their own sanity, for their own monetary gain.

pwBPd have a deluded sense of reality, although the action may seem like the above example of "gaslighting" it is not a correct description and can lead us down the wrong track of assumptions. What you have in this case is the "perpetrator", for want of a better term, having a faulty, or delusional version of reality. At the best it is a disregard for your reality other than what they want it to be. Often simply to validate their own feeling of the moment.

In short it is a sign of their own lack of reality. The effect may seem the same but the underlying reasons are entirely different. Without fully grasping the true reasoning behind this behavior, it is hard to isolate yourself from it.

The term "gaslighting" as a result is avoided by clinicians in mental health, as it carries with it inaccurate conotations

"Isolate" yourself from it is the preferred way to deal with it rather than "combat" it. In fact as a guide if you can avoid thinking about "combating" the effects of BPD you will make your life easier, as the disorder itself is often about drawing you into "combat'

What you are actually dealing with is automatic denial of responsibility and distraction to avoid consequences. It is pretty common with pwBPD when cornered.

[FallBack!Monster]

Thanks ks for clarifying, once removed.

I'm starting to get the picture now. She's just looking for some (her delusional idea of) fun.  There I was given it another meaning. Stupid me.  Whatever it is, she wins. I no longer have the wants for combat.

[Skip]

Is it still considered gaslighting if it's not working.

The truth is, nobody knows. Why? Because this is a made up term with no definition other than a movie and none of us have even seen the movie. It's a little like asking, if we use Bing for an internet search, can is still be called "googling". As soon as we start concerning ourselves with this type of thing, we get way off track. I suggest stepping away from the jargon and staying focused on the matter at hand and what you control. The  jargon and the generalizations are just complicating this for you (for many).

last night she told me... .// ... .she's in love with her p[imp]

Breakups are extremely difficult because it's the ultimate rejection. We care about somebody and they tell us that they don't care about us back. Unrequited love. We endured this in elementary school children when not being invited to "the party". As we get older, becomes more painful.  This stuff is gutwrenching.

Your partner clearly has bad boundaries.  Is it malicious or is she just caught up in her own stuff and oblivious to your feelings. You can't know. This is why labeling confuses - it often implies pathology or fault. That makes us feel worse than we need to feel (how could she be so hurtful to me).

What she's doing right now sharing her life with you at the same time being oblivious to how painful what she's telling you is for you personally.  It's really inappropriate. If she had the same conversation with someone else, it wouldn't carry all the ramifications. There is still some bond between you, and so she is sharing.

ACTION:  There are several things you can do. You can cut off all contact (you seem reluctant to do that). You can tell her that speaking about other relationships is out of bounds with you. You can do nothing (probably not a good idea).

[FallBack!Monster]

First off I'd like to thank you for taking the time to reply.

The subject(s) on this site is about BPD  and PDs in general. I think it's safe to use the word gaslighting here regardless of its origin. Years back, I had never heard of the word metrosexual but it's now a description that people understand.  with language is all we need is to know what the other person is taking about and then we can cal it communication.

The issue is not so much hurt as it is me looking for reasons to NOT totally "cut her off".  Ive I take care of me and I have accepted that her disorder define her next move. Nothing that I did or can do can ever change that.

I've also accepted that she's oblivious to anything having to do with me.
Skipp
What do you mean by the matter at hand? and she wouldn't really talk about her relationship with me. She said that to get a reaction from me. and let's leave it as that.

[Icanteven]

Is it still considered gaslighting if it's not working.

The truth is, nobody knows. Why? Because this is a made up term with no definition other than a movie and none of us have even seen the movie. It's a little like asking, if we use Bing for an internet search, can is still be called "googling". As soon as we start concerning ourselves with this type of thing, we get way off track. I suggest stepping away from the jargon and staying focused on the matter at hand and what you control.

Skip is money on this point and it bears repeating.  I'd maybe go even further in relaying what a psychiatrist told me a few months ago - and it helped tremendously - "ICE, it doesn't matter if she's BPD or HPD or NPD or a little ASPD or maybe even a combination of all the above; the label isn't what matters; what matters is that she clearly has Cluster B personality disordered traits that are going to take years of psychotherapy to address.  From your perspective, who cares what it's called?  All that matters is getting her the right help and that YOU can't fix her."

Gaslighting by any other name would smell as stank.

[FallBack!Monster]

From your perspective, who cares what it's called?  All that matters is getting her the right help and that YOU can't fix her."

Not my perspective... .and I sure wasn't projecting.  Was I just attacked for my views? Idk?

[once removed]

To me, any form of trying to make you believe something that may or may not be true is a form of it.

so essentially, any disagreement or differing perspectives of an event are psychological abuse? i think that goes to show the term is devoid of any meaning.

did we fall in love with scam artists, or someone with distorted perceptions?

[pjstock42]

did we fall in love with scam artists, or someone with distorted perceptions?

I think this will differ with each individual person. In my case, I think it was a mix of both. Her distorted perceptions led her to convince me that she really loved me, convinced me to commit to her, to move in with her for her benefit etc. Once she had the realization that she couldn't live up to her distorted perceptions, she made the conscious decision to scam me through lying to my face, pretending that she loved me & eventually moving out with no warning / dumping me via a text message and sticking me with thousands of dollars in bills to cover her irresponsibility. A normal adult would have discussed things open & honestly, explained why they were feeling a certain way and treat their partner with respect rather than discarding them with no warning because they couldn't face accountability for their own actions.

[once removed]

when someone scams someone else, there is something to be gained, usually monetary. what is to be gained by pretending to love and then dump someone?

a scam assumes that people with BPD have the tools and skills to pull such a scheme, which would take a great deal of thought and planning, off. we are talking about people with deep seated emotional maturity, who are notoriously impulsive, whos needs may shift on a dime, and have an unstable sense of self.

which gives you a better picture of what happened:

"he/she gaslighted me!"

"he/she and i had an argument over what color the sky is. i feel very confused."

the differences can be subtle, but are very important in terms of a balanced understanding, breaking down how our relationships played out. if we were scammed, that has very different implications for our recovery, and very different lessons to be learned.

[pjstock42]

I don't think it's a BPD trait to pretend to love and then dump someone, perhaps more aligned with a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath but I highly doubt that most of us here dealt with a straight up "by the books" BPD ex who didn't have some of these traits as well. I know for a fact that my ex got a great deal of pleasure from doing this to people, she even bragged about this to me in the past (red flag much?). For a sick and twisted individual, I can definitely see how they would get a sense of power/control out of manipulating someone to the point where they were putty in their hands. I honestly think that my ex not only doesn't care about me at all, I think she's happy with herself for how easily she was able to destroy me, not just to be the one who ended things but to know that she has the power to dominate someone in this way. She took a proud, confident, emotionally stable person and knocked him down to being someone who feels worthless, has no self confidence and no emotional stability. Empathetic people like us will never be able to relate to the sense of pleasure that someone would get from doing this, and that's a good thing. I would never want to be a person who went through life getting my rocks off through duping & exploiting people, that truly sounds like a terrible existence to me. Not trying to play up the victim card too much here but just trying to assert the fact that there are things for (sick) people to gain through pretending to love someone & then dumping them.

[Skip]

  FallBack!Monster,

I know you are really hurting. We are all hear to help.

You mentioned yesterday that your therapist is questioning whether your participation here is helping you... .it's a very good question that he asks. I ask it, too.

If we only use the support group to co-ruminate, we are only making matter worse for ourselves. Researchers have shown that co-rumination is popular and feels good at the time but only increases our sense of injustice and woundedness. We re-injure ourselves.

It is only when we look deeper to understand our role in these relationships and our struggles to let them go, do we heal and grow.

  It important to know that research shows that upward of 50% of people who get involved with people with mental instabilities or addiction also have mental instabilities.

  It is important to know that we all have attribution bias - that is we tend to se others bad behavior as a deep character flaw and our own as a reasonable reaction to circumstances.

  everyone - let go of the dysfunctional use of jargon and also try not to over pathologize our ex's. I have seen some using terms like psychopath incorrectly - psychopaths have some very specific tangible characteristics. ASPD crosses into some very dark areas that NPD and BPD don't. It may feel validating to over-diagnose a partner but know that we do this to deny and avoid accountability for our role in the relationship failure. This doesn't help us.

She said that to get a reaction from me. and let's leave it as that.

FM, if you're convinced that the relationship has devolved to "button pushing", then you need to close that door - I think you already know that and would have done it long ago. But you are not closing the door - and that is typically because we have more of a belief in the person than you are voicing. In a way, your fighting with yourself.

Skip

PS. I get the sense my comments regarding accountability and self-awareness are very unsettling for you.

[FallBack!Monster]

Once remove, I always get you. Another thing, im on a phone and sometimes I have limited time to write. When I have time I explain myself better.

 My question (OP) was made bc to me... .there is no clear understanding of what constitutes as gaslighting.
I don't think my ex is a con. I believe she believed she was truly in love with me. I don't believe she means to hurt people. But I believe she knows the outcome. She's not a young girl. After a while, you just know. Still, like all of us, she has to keep trying. What she does after parting is what I see wrong with her actions. I don't think she is a psychopath but maybe a sociopath. My opinion!  However, In the past I have heard her express guilt for something even I wouldn't feel that guilty about. And I don't think she was pretending. No I am not mentally disturbed. But maybe my past had me emotionally bruised.

I'm not on this site to play. I really I'm learning to see things from different standards. I obviously have not deleted my account bc i don't want to, otherwise i wouldn't have needed to hear it from my advisor. I'm hurting less than you assume but healing better than you judged. 

The real deal real reason for the question... .She has no easy way of getting in touch with me but finds ways to reach me to tell me stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with me. when she doesn't get the (maybe) expected reaction from me, accuses me of not being her (now) friend. And claims she has people in her life that will never abandon her. But I didn't, she did. For whatever reason(s), but she did.

Hope I was clear.

[steelwork]

I've also seen the movie, and it IS good!

The definition of gaslighting is actually pretty simple. It means someone trying to make someone else think they are crazy by pretending not to notice something that is actually happening. (Near as I can tell, this activity has nothing to do with BPD.)

That said... .

If we only use the support group to co-ruminate, we are only making matter worse for ourselves.

Co-sign on this 100%. I have seen it at play, here and elsewhere. It's one thing to come here and find validation and fellowship, but learning how to shift gears seems to be crucial if you're going to start getting better. Hang around, observe, and you'll see that this is true.