My pwBPD's imaginary life

[WendyDavid]

I don't know which board to post this question.  I've been trying to research on my own, but I cannot find an answer that works.  Maybe someone can help me.

How do I help my ex-husband understand why his feelings about what is real do not match what evidence is showing him is real?  Every time he does or says something irrational, he say "but it feels true".  There have been numerous times when he made a very bad decision.  His family and I have asked him why he made such a decision and he gives an explanation using facts that do not exist in real life.  When the evidence is put before him, he still sticks to his decision.  However, he never really has conviction for his poor decisions.  He often says that he did something wrong.  But no matter what facts or details are pointed out that he made a decision based on imaginary evidence, he always responds that "it feels real".  

I'll try to use an example that is not too confusing, because this stuff really makes my head spin.  We had a tiring argument that went around in circles, the other day.  He has a friend that he thought was very close.  He believed this friend would support him on something he wanted very much.  However, the "friend" was nothing more than an acquaintance.  My ex and this person never hung out socially or went to each other's family functions.  Yet, my ex expected loyalty.  He was shocked and felt betrayed when he found out the "friend" was talking to others and questioning my ex's honesty about certain claims.  Also, my ex says he had a certain love for this other person.  However, my ex had never expressed interest in the other man's personal feelings on anything, never wanted to know anything about the other man's life that was too different than his own, could not mention one name from the other man's group of friends, and made a damaging remark about the other man's daughter and thought it was a joke.

My ex will even say that conversations were made between the two of them that didn't happen.  He showed me a string of text messages that did not show any promises of loyalty, but my ex insisted on "interpreting" the texts to me to show the close relationship.  My ex will say that he did great things for the other person that contributed to the other person's success in life, but my ex was only sharing stories on facebook.  My ex says the other man made promises to help him, but in when my ex tried to cash in those promises, the other man said no promise was ever made and gave several reasons why he couldn't have made such a promise.

So my ex has been holding on to this pain of betrayal of a "friend" being unsupportive and of telling someone that he thought my ex might be telling false stories.  When evidence was shown that the two were not close friends, my ex says he "feels like they were".  But why does it feel that way if he knows that it wasn't?  His answer is always "I don't know".  When I suggest that his feelings are really for something else and that he is using the friendship as an excuse, he is determined that the feelings are directly from the actions of the friend, even though he admits the actions were not true friendship.  

This is just one example of they way he projects his imagination onto reality.  In other cases, he has damaged what is important in his life (family, career, marriage, freedom) because he refuses to act in accordance with reality.  He chooses his "feelings", even when it makes things worse for him.  What is most confusing to me is that he knows he is doing this.  I still have love for him.  I don't want something really bad to happen to him.

Any suggestions?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ArleighBurke]

How do I help my ex-husband understand why his feelings about what is real do not match what evidence is showing him is real?

This is the fundamental of BPD behaviour.

A "non-BPD" person has a feeling. But then they use facts to evaluate their feeling, and they may change their feelings based on fact. eg My partner came home late from work. I may have the immediate though/feeling/worry that they are cheating on me. But then i can think about the facts, and decide that that's a silly thought - they're probably just tied up in traffic.

But a BPD person has a feeling - and they are UNABLE to change that feeling. AND, the only "facts" they can see are those that support their feeling - they can't see or process any other facts! This is what the common BPD statement "feelings=facts" means.

Their feelings are real. You cannot "truth" him out of his feelings. Think about a fear of spiders. You cannot "truth" a person out of their fear - it JUST exists.

So this is where VALIDATION comes in. Acknowledge his FEELING. Assume for a moment that his facts DO support his feeling, and say "I understand you feel X - I would too" (if I read the facts the way you did... .). Then use the SET method to give an alternative view - such as "Maybe that's not what they meant - I can read these texts from another perspective as well".

[RDMercer55]

How do I help my ex-husband understand why his feelings about what is real do not match what evidence is showing him is real?

This is the fundamental of BPD behaviour.

A "non-BPD" person has a feeling. But then they use facts to evaluate their feeling, and they may change their feelings based on fact. eg My partner came home late from work. I may have the immediate though/feeling/worry that they are cheating on me. But then i can think about the facts, and decide that that's a silly thought - they're probably just tied up in traffic.

But a BPD person has a feeling - and they are UNABLE to change that feeling. AND, the only "facts" they can see are those that support their feeling - they can't see or process any other facts! This is what the common BPD statement "feelings=facts" means.

Their feelings are real. You cannot "truth" him out of his feelings. Think about a fear of spiders. You cannot "truth" a person out of their fear - it JUST exists.

So this is where VALIDATION comes in. Acknowledge his FEELING. Assume for a moment that his facts DO support his feeling, and say "I understand you feel X - I would too" (if I read the facts the way you did... .). Then use the SET method to give an alternative view - such as "Maybe that's not what they meant - I can read these texts from another perspective as well".

This is excellent truth, thank you for sharing!

[WendyDavid]

Hello ArleighBurke

I really appreciate your reply and I have much respect for where you are coming from.  To me, your words trigger a feeling of hopelessness.  It sounds like he will never be competent to live in the world.  I believe you didn't mean it this way, but I didn't hear anything about how he will become a person that can perceive the real world and take responsibility for his own happiness.

I do SET and it upsets him because he thinks he is being treated like he's handicapped.  For example, I said "I think X is a nice guy too.  I was also shocked that he appeared to back-stab you."  He says "Wait a minute.  You were the one that tried to warn me.  :)id you ever really think he was nice? You are doing one of those 'monkey training' things" (he calls using techniques to soothe "monkey training" because they are intended to affect his behavior).  Then I say "well, I can see the nice parts of him during (example 1) and the selfish parts during (example 2)".  Then he says "I know I was blinded by (example 1) and it ruined me.  But I still want to be his friend again."  I will respond with "if you become friends, you will be able to handle (example 2)?"  and he will say "(Example 2) might not have happened".  So we talk about how (example 2) really did happen and that is why he is upset.  Then he comes up with every reason he can to find some other reason he was upset that avoids being mad at his friend.  This usually ends up that he thinks I am the one creating the bad feelings he has toward the friend and his proof is that I do "monkey training" on him.  

Its interesting that you talk about the fear of spiders.  He and I watched a video about a doctor that cured phobias and one was arachnophobia.  The person with phobia had to touch the spiders.  We always use that example when we talk about overcoming fear.  "Touch the Spider!" & acknowledge that you have nothing to fear.  You have me thinking about how that applies to BPD.    

I really appreciate this site and the perspective it gives on "handling" someone with BPD.  My ex and I are having arguments because he is not being straight forward with his therapist.  It sounds like my ex does not really trust his therapist because he feels he is being "handled".  Of course, not doing validation, empathy, honesty, etc will have very negative effects.  Its like the he's using the excuse that we are treating him this way to justify continuing his isolation in his fantasy world.

To me, this is some sort of unique craziness that I can't wrap my head around.  That is why I'm glad I found others that are going through the same thing.  At this moment, I believe that he can enter the real world and I have hope that someone reading will be able to share their knowledge or insight about how to get him to understand why he is clinging to his false world that he knows will put him in a position to be hurt again.

[ArleighBurke]

Unfortunately, I think you'll find we probably ALL only see the world we want to see - just to varying degrees. For a BPD, the difference between what they see and what I see is huge. But the difference between the way I perceive the world, and the way you perceive the world may only be subtly different.

I guess there is a certain amount of helplessness about it. I can only control ME, and as much as I want to help her - I can't. I go through this with my BPD wife, I will probably go through it with my kids as well - as they age they will start making their own (stupid) decisions that I will not agree with, that I will *try* to show them will end in pain, but ultimately they will decide to do it anyway. Hopefully they will learn from it, but maybe not. How many things do YOU do in your life that you know is wrong but you keep doing it... .

Radical Acceptance - accept what IS, not what SHOULD BE.

[ArleighBurke]

With SET - if he's picking up on it, then you're probably doing it "not quite right" yet. The language needs to be yours, and you need to work out what to validate.

"I think X is a nice guy too.  I was also shocked that he appeared to back-stab you."  He says "Wait a minute.  You were the one that tried to warn me.  Did you ever really think he was nice?

So you AGREED with his statement that "he was a nice guy" - which obviously goes against something you've already said. Agreeing is not validating! He's picking up on this because you are contradicting yourself. Perhaps instead: "I know you trusted him - and thought he was a nice guy - and I understand why -OR- and I can see good in him. I'm sorry he back-stabbed you - that must have hurt"

[WendyDavid]

Thank you for your reply.  It seems a bit more clear now.  If I want to improve my relationship with him, I have to accept that he is mentally ill and work around it.  I get what you are saying about SET.  He is being really sensitive to things that are different.  I've never had a problem with acknowledging his feelings, showing empathy, and finding resolution because this is part of the training at my job.  So when I try to change over to SET, I probably don't get it right and he is associating it with my job.

He has said to me that he doesn't want me to change my expectations on him.  He says he wants me to treat him like he is not mentally ill.  Again, he is being sensitive to my changes.  Should I listen to him?  Should I try to find something that is not quite changing/not quite staying the same?

He says his goal is to not have BPD.  He doesn't want to feel like a fool again for making choices based on imaginary facts.  Is his goal even possible?

[ArleighBurke]

I don't think they are imaginary facts. I think a BPD places a huge amount of weight on their FEELINGS, which overides any facts they can see. If *I* was placed in a highly emotional situation, I too would prioritise my feelings over facts - feelings come from a deeper level - which equates to survival. Just like you "jump" when startled - that is a very deep level of your brain protecting you. The "thought/evaluation" level comes later, slower.

The problem is that a BPD person feels ALL their emotions much stronger than everyone else. And in a highly emotional state they cannot rationally evaluate things. I think a good therapy for a BPD is emotional awareness - and detachment if they can. Being able to see their emotion but not be caught up in it. This is a very buddhist trait and gets strengthened with meditation.

I've never had a problem with acknowledging his feelings, showing empathy, and finding resolution because this is part of the training at my job.  So when I try to change over to SET... .

It sounds like what you were doing initially IS actually SET - how are you trying to do SET differently now?

If I want to improve my relationship with him, I have to accept that he is mentally ill and work around it.

And this is the same - with anyone. There are ways to approach him to make things easier. I know with my wife (and I think it's common BPD) surprises are bad. So I make sure I remind her of things coming. I know changing plans at the last minute is bad - so I adapt. I know she freaks out about large money purchases - so I make sure I choose the right time to talk about things with her - and make sure we don't get bogged down in petty details. This is just normal relationships (I'm pretty sure... .) - it's just that a BPD will probably have a few more things than normal.

[waverider]

Feelings are overwhelming. Reality is massaged to fit and explain these feelings. They cant stop these feelings so to deny them, even in the face of obvious evidence is to completely undermine their own sense of worth.

Hence when you keep trying to hammer that square peg of reality into the round hole of BPD, you get nowhere except damaging both parties.

Will a low functioning pwBPD ever be fully competent? Well they can be better but their thought process are always likely to askew.

If you engage and help them discuss thing through without trying to sell your reality you will reduce their defensiveness and allow them to see more laterally. Once you try to label them as round it simply consolidates their stubbornness.

Everyone is different, but the goal is to take the harm and toxicity out of it and let the illogical eccentricity aspects just be.

[WendyDavid]

My ex is most definitely imagining facts.  For example, he tells me about conversations that never happened, he remembers things but has the location wrong or the person involved wrong, sometimes people tell him things very straight forward and he still hears something completely different.  I've heard someone else on this site say their pwBPD does the same.  I understand the idea that highly emotionally charged states can alter perception of reality.  I was in a bank robbery years ago and the witness statements didn't match the video.  However, the witnesses conceded to the video.  My ex will acknowledge that the facts are true but refuse to believe them.  I don't even know how he can do that!

I have a bit of a different perspective as far as pwBPD feeling emotions stronger than other people.  Its a perspective I have because I went through chemotherapy.  Chemo really messes up your brain.  I had a hard time using my brain the same way I've always used it for years.  For example, I could not cope with sadness at all.  If we see a TV show were a dog dies, we might cry a little, but we have these internal mental processes that calm us down and we just move on with our day when the show is over.  When I was on chemo, I would watch something like that and I would cry until I fell asleep -- even if it was several hours later.  It didn't mean my emotions were stronger on chemo, it meant my mental processes were weaker.  I have a suspicion that pwBPD have normal emotional strength but lack mental resources.  If my amateur hypothesis is true, I'm hoping that my ex can learn these resources. 

To address what I do differently when I try to do SET kind of goes like this:  before I would say something like "I hear that you are saying X.  I've experienced X.  This is how I think we can resolve X."  When I try to do SET I will say something like "I agree that sounds Y.  I would feel Y too.  I see this other thing too, do you see it?  I think this is not really Y but more Z."  Of course he says he sees it but still disagrees.  Am I doing it wrong?

I guess my major mental hurdle in all of this is I don't know if he can stop this harmful way of thinking.  I'd be just fine if it was eccentric harmless beliefs that didn't hurt anyone or cause him to get hurt.  I've discovered that he has already taken some of his fantasy into the real world.  Its fantasy that is disrespectful, harmful and sometimes abusive to others.  He has also abused himself.  I know that some of his fantasies are violent, immoral and illegal.  He is trying so hard to live these fantasies without anyone stopping him.  I've read a lot about BPD in the last few months and there does not seem to be an agreement in the medical world about whether or not pwBPD can recover.  I may be wrong, but I'm getting the impression by those here on this site that you've experienced BPD as something that can be rendered harmless but will always be a handicap. 

Thank you for the advice about meditation, emotional awareness therapy and trying to lower pwBPD's defenses.  I'm not quite sure what "selling your reality" means because if something happened, it happened.  If you are talking about how someone can tell him they don't like what he is doing and he tells them that they do like it, then  I agree that realities will clash.  Due to the seriousness of his attempts to control others, I've put a lot of hours into getting him to the point where he sees the facts, acknowledges the truth but he still believes the fantasy and won't change his behavior.  I'm going to put more effort into your advice and look into more of these tools you are referencing.  Do you have any success stories?

[ArleighBurke]

I, and I'm sure many others on this site, went YEARS in my marriage with my wife telling me I had told her or not told her somethnig that I didn't remember. Each year I became less and less sure that I was right. Until I found out about BPD. Then I started documenting most of my conversations. I can now pronouce myself sane!

But there is a difference between what we are told, and what we hear. Part of good conversational technique is repeating "what we heard" to make sure it matches "what they meant". I know when i've tried this with my wife AND WITH NON-BPDs it reveals some VERY interesting results.

Everything we hear we process. And in processing we "colour" what we hear with our own desires, our own assumptions. Perhaps a BPD does that MORE... .? My personal opinion is that a BPD remembers the EMOTION of the conversation, not the words. So even if I said "your red dress looks nice, but i still prefer the black one", she may remember that as "he didn't like the red dress" because that is the EMOTION she felt at that time. And in recalling the conversation, she doesn't remember the words, she remembers she felt bad, which means he must have said he didn't like it!

Either way - it is what it is. I think trying to make him see "the facts" is going to be difficult. Although, I have had some success with my partner by changing how she feels about the person first. If she feels bad about him, she'll recall the conversation as bad. But if she feels good about him, she'll recall the SAME conversation with a "good spin" on it. I've only done it a couple of times, but it astounded me!

[hollow]

This thread reminds me of Gorgias' statements on Non-Existence, and that our senses are so limited that absolute or shared truth is fictitious and cannot be communicated.

It also reminds me of the Braitenberg vehicle thought experiment, since the behavior described in this thread, in combination with our responses, is so common among our exes.

[waverider]

I have a bit of a different perspective as far as pwBPD feeling emotions stronger than other people.  Its a perspective I have because I went through chemotherapy.  Chemo really messes up your brain.  I had a hard time using my brain the same way I've always used it for years.  For example, I could not cope with sadness at all.  If we see a TV show were a dog dies, we might cry a little, but we have these internal mental processes that calm us down and we just move on with our day when the show is over.  When I was on chemo, I would watch something like that and I would cry until I fell asleep -- even if it was several hours later.  It didn't mean my emotions were stronger on chemo, it meant my mental processes were weaker.  I have a suspicion that pwBPD have normal emotional strength but lack mental resources.  If my amateur hypothesis is true, I'm hoping that my ex can learn these resources. 

I think what you are eluding to is Wisemind.

pwBPd can have surpessed or compromised executive functioning, so the emotional mind gets the majority vote before a reaction is made. Some people are so scared of the emotional mind being exposed that they overrule it constantly with the executive or logical mind, these people will present as emotional cripples.

A healthy mind, as you say, feels the emotion, the body starts to react (adrenaline etc) The executive mind kicks in and assesses the situation, and a modified reaction is actioned.

When you were having chemo your ability to make executive thought processes was suppressed hence your emotional dysregulation. My wife was the same, chemo temporarily turns your mind to mush.

Everyone is different, very centered people have a large area of overlap that contains the Wisemind, others less centered may have a much reduced overlap.

The black and white thinking of pwBPD often means even if they can see they were wrong they struggle to admit it, as they can't be a bit wrong, and to be totally wrong is too much to bear. Hence they may hit restart, but not actually learn from the mistake, and so repeat it.

[SettingBorders]

I have a bit of a different perspective as far as pwBPD feeling emotions stronger than other people.  Its a perspective I have because I went through chemotherapy.  Chemo really messes up your brain.  I had a hard time using my brain the same way I've always used it for years.  For example, I could not cope with sadness at all.  If we see a TV show were a dog dies, we might cry a little, but we have these internal mental processes that calm us down and we just move on with our day when the show is over.  When I was on chemo, I would watch something like that and I would cry until I fell asleep -- even if it was several hours later.  It didn't mean my emotions were stronger on chemo, it meant my mental processes were weaker.  I have a suspicion that pwBPD have normal emotional strength but lack mental resources.  If my amateur hypothesis is true, I'm hoping that my ex can learn these resources. 

This is very interesting and it explains, why DBT techniques might work. Being pregnant I am thinking a lot about education right now. I would say that it is important to convey a certain amount of basic trust: So someone will always return to the child helping to cope with needs, fears and emotion. But it's also important to teach coping mechanisms to solve emotional problems alone. Like soothing themselves, playing alone, dealing with frustration. Therefore parents shouldn't act as an extended arm of they children, they shouldn't react immediatly where there is a problem, because otherwise their children would lack these abilities and learn to see other people as objects that act on their will.

Maybe it's the same with borderliners. We might have to show to our loved ones, that we are there as a safetly net, but not resolving their problems, not even the emotional ones. We have to ask ourselves: how much empathy will be good for them? What do they have to resolve alone? If we always react like: "I can understand, that you are frustrated because of X, I would be too. But isn't there another way to see it? I would think that Y ... ." Isn't that actually watering their psychological strain and therefore stopping them from wanting to change something?

I've discovered that he has already taken some of his fantasy into the real world.  Its fantasy that is disrespectful, harmful and sometimes abusive to others.  He has also abused himself.  I know that some of his fantasies are violent, immoral and illegal. 
[... .]  I'm not quite sure what "selling your reality" means because if something happened, it happened.  If you are talking about how someone can tell him they don't like what he is doing and he tells them that they do like it, then  I agree that realities will clash.  Due to the seriousness of his attempts to control others, I've put a lot of hours into getting him to the point where he sees the facts, acknowledges the truth but he still believes the fantasy and won't change his behavior. 

I am worried about that. You're sure that is BPD behaviour? Maybe narcistic? Borderliners are very empathic with the emotions of others and might feel hurt by them. They might therefore also deny them, yes. But I've not heared that they would play out their fantasies on others... .

[WendyDavid]

I have another example of something that happened yesterday.  My ex called me at work saying he was cursed at and had threats to have the police called on him.  I asked him to visit me at work.  When he comes by he tells me that one of his friends that he's known for 2 years got angry when he visited her house.  This is a woman that he told me he thinks she is in love with him.  I asked what happened and he says that in her rant, she said things like "you're not better than me", "I've had jobs", and "I know what you did".  Also, he shows me a text she sent him in which she calls him "scum" and "evil" and says that she already told him that she would call the police on him.  Since he couldn't explain much more, I said we would talk at home later.

When I asked why he thought she was in love with him, he said they had multiple conversations about getting married and spending holidays at each other's families.  When I started asking why she said such strange things in her rant, he finally remembers that he actually told her that he thought he was better than her because he had a job and more education.  Also, my ex had visited a friend or relative of hers and told him something about this woman that was a bit shameful.  So I asked my ex how did he think she would feel after the mean things he said about her and he said he couldn't figure it out.  He had no clue how she would feel.  So I turned the tables on him and he said that he would be angry.  So I asked if NOW he understood why she was angry.  He said no.  He couldn't figure out how she was angry because she was in love with him.

What really baffles me is that my ex told me that he is in shock to discover that he lives in a fantasy world - yet he won't give it up.  He said that going to that woman's house and getting yelled at proved that she felt differently than he expected.  He admitted that her love was all in his head.  However, he says that he still FEELS that she loves him.  So, he is not sure he wants her out of his life - despite that she wants him out of her life enough to call the police if he is at her home.

I've looked into these philosophies and theories about how we think of our reality.  I just don't know how to apply it.

What SettingBorders is saying is something I suspected too.  My ex was not diagnosed with NPD, but I often wonder if he is narcissistic.  And I'm posting his story on this site because if this is BPD behavior, I'm sure many readers will relate.  But if people here do not relate, then I may have to talk to his psychiatrist.

Yes, my ex does remember and hold on to short bits of conversation that trigger his emotions.  If these two did talk about getting married, then he is holding on to the possibility of not being alone after our divorce.  However, getting arrested is a big price to pay for being an emotional perceiver.

[SettingBorders]

What SettingBorders is saying is something I suspected too.  My ex was not diagnosed with NPD, but I often wonder if he is narcissistic.  And I'm posting his story on this site because if this is BPD behavior, I'm sure many readers will relate.  But if people here do not relate, then I may have to talk to his psychiatrist.

I can relate to false memories. My boyfriend often thinks things were vice versa: That in a conversation I have had the position he was having and he had mine. But that only happens when my position feels better to him in the end. It's not an imaginary life that's totally out of the blue. It's more like a defending mechanism to prevent self-blame. Your ex'es imaginary life seems different to me.

[Grey Kitty]

What really baffles me is that my ex told me that he is in shock to discover that he lives in a fantasy world - yet he won't give it up.  He said that going to that woman's house and getting yelled at proved that she felt differently than he expected.  He admitted that her love was all in his head.  However, he says that he still FEELS that she loves him.  So, he is not sure he wants her out of his life - despite that she wants him out of her life enough to call the police if he is at her home.

I'm wondering if SET is the right tool here.

Your ex has some weird/confused/messed up beliefs about this woman. He "feels" that she loves him.

That isn't really an emotional feeling on his part--that is a belief of his, and one which doesn't seem to fit reality very well at that.

You've been trying to get him to let go of these fantasies, using SET. (It seems to be going badly)

What about validating his actual feelings instead of trying to solve the problems he's creating for himself?

I'd guess he was feeling hurt and rejected by that woman. Have you tried to validate those feelings?

[WendyDavid]

Hi Grey Kitty

Do you have any suggestions on how to validate his feelings?  We do something at home where I ask him to rate his feelings.  Like "for happiness, from one to ten, how do you feel?', "on sadness, from one to ten, how do you feel?".  We also do it for anger and shame.  This is pretty much the only way to know how he is feeling.  Because other things he says he feels are not emotions - like feeling events or conversations happened that didn't.  Or he thinks he feels other people's feelings, even when they tell him differently.  If I can validate anything, he wants to end the conversation at that. 

I understand he is trying to avoid the "painful awakening" that he imagined it all.  If I can successfully validate his feelings, what do I do next?

[Grey Kitty]

If I can successfully validate his feelings, what do I do next?

There really isn't a "what next". Validation is a way to improve your relationship or communications with somebody. In one of these relationships, it is more a way of turning the heat down so less nasty stuff is likely to boil out. It will occasionally have a good direct result immediately, but that isn't the biggest benefit.

Have you read this workshop?

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

Start by acknowledging what he says and his feelings. For example, he feels that a person betrayed him... .(earlier example in this thread)

That this person wasn't really more than an acquaintance, and shouldn't have been expected to be loyal isn't a target for validation. Especially when he has some facts completely wrong... .that isn't valid; don't validate the invalid.

That said, in many cases, there is no need to correct this for him, and NOT doing it is a huge step forward, because pointing out that his facts are wrong is invalidating... .which you don't want to do when it isn't needed. Sometimes you have to, of course.

This situation seems like one where he isn't actually going to harm himself, and especially won't harm you if he keeps getting this wrong.

That he feels betrayed, that he is hurt or angry about the betrayal is very real. You can validate that feeling. Acknowledge that this sucks. Or ask him about those feelings, for example.

[WendyDavid]

Thanks for the advice, Grey Kitty.  If you mean the situation where he thought someone was his friend and wasn't isn't going to get him hurt, then I agree.  There are other situations that can get him hurt.  Like believing his company owes him something so he stole from them.  He told me this week that he might be getting fired.  It will be a matter if he can convince them to keep him. 

As an update, I had a moment when I suspected why this might be happening.  He was talking about someone he said he thought he was still in love with after many years.  The more he talked, the more it occurred to me that he actually hated her.  So I suggested that maybe he is trying to believe he loves her in order to avoid feeling that he hates her.  Well, that started more aggression toward me than I could handle.  Somehow he brought up his mother, and before I could stop myself, I suggested he also hated his mom but was too ashamed to hate her so he forced himself to love her (his dad was physically abusive and his mom turned a blind eye to it all).  The next thing I know, he's calling me a dog and trying to throw me out of the house and hitting me with papers... .so I'm not going to talk to HIM about that anymore.

So, I've validated.  It does work to calm him.  Then I suggest something to him, and all the validating work is out the window.  I'm pretty sure his stubbornness for keeping the fantasy world is from realizing the reality.  For example, I think he knows that he feels anger at people for not loving him as he thinks they should (or thinking he is valuable enough, as in the case of his employer).  He feels ashamed of being so needy and convinced himself that they love him as he needs them to love.  Then when reality points out that they really don't love him as he wants, he forces out the reality for his fantasy.  I think he feels that he will have to hurt people for not giving him what he wants, so he is afraid of facing it.

I know I am just guessing at all of this.  Since the fantasy and the reality are both causing problems, any suggestions on helping him find a safe way to deal with these?  I know I'm asking for a lot.  I appreciate any point of view on this.

Thank you!

[Grey Kitty]

I know I am just guessing at all of this.  Since the fantasy and the reality are both causing problems, any suggestions on helping him find a safe way to deal with these?

I'd suggest you push your limits on letting him live in his fantasy world as much as you can. Even when you think you couldn't. Or reducing the scope of it.

Like believing his company owes him something so he stole from them.  He told me this week that he might be getting fired.

If you heard about this BEFORE he'd stolen something (or while he could still return it), I'd suggest you use something like S.E.T. You can validate his feeling that he's owed something--the FEELING is real, and it sucks. The "truth" in that one is that the company won't find the theft justified, and might fire him.

Now that it is too late to undo that, I wouldn't bother with that.

There is no way to get around this truth, and it is for you: Telling him his "facts" are actually a fantasy is invalidating. Doesn't matter how right you are and how wrong he is, it is invalidating.

And since he has BPD, he's very sensitive to invalidation, and is going to react badly to it.

So make sure you are doing it at a time that will really save yourself and him harm, and that it is worth the fireworks.

As you said... .telling him that he probably hates somebody he professes to love isn't worth it--First, it gets him REALLY upset, and he takes it out on you. And I doubt he actually resolves anything or deals with it better after hearing it.

He has a lot of feelings and doesn't have a lot of skills to cope with them, as you've noticed. When you can guess what is underneath, if you tell him or suggest it, he's not ready to cope with them. That kind of probing isn't good for most people. This is a case where validation might work better. You can validate the feelings that he does acknowledge or express, in a way that is safe for him, and shows that you accept that he has those feelings without blaming him or attacking him. Eventually he might feel safe sharing a bit more of them with you. This will be a long path (if it goes forward at all); don't expect anything quick.