Friend with likely BPD - Seeking opinions, perspectives, suggestions

[Peacefromwithin]

I wasn't sure where to post this.

I have a friend I've known for a little over a year. She is a positive-minded, confident, friendly, kind, pleasant person. She had a very abusive and neglectful childhood and I give her a lot of credit for pulling herself up by her bootstraps and improving her life. She's come a long way from what I know about her past.

That being said, she is incredibly sensitive and admits to that. The the way she thinks reminds me of the way I used to think when I was a teenager. If she doesn't hear from me, she'll call me up upset and ask if I'm mad at her. I feel badly that she's in that much emotional pain to think the worst, and I get it because I used to be like about 20 years ago when I was in a lot of pain and emotionally stunted from being raised in the environment I was raised in. I tried to reassure her and she understood.

Then there were a couple of times recently where she called me up upset to ask me what I thought about some things going on with her other friends or with her husband. I give her credit for reaching out because she had the awareness of her thoughts, and it was like she was fighting them and needed to know what someone else thought (her words, "am I crazy to think that?". I know that fight. I tried to help her as best I could without trying to "fix her". I tried to help her see that her thoughts were just fear-based lies. I even shared a recent experience I had, and laughed at myself, trying to help her see the connection by example. I tried to be as extremely gentle, kind, and positive as possible, helping her to see things differently.

Recently we had plans to go out for coffee. She gave me two time options that worked for her, 10:00 or 3:00. She works from home so I know her time is flexible but I don't really know her day to day schedule. I always am respectful of it, though. Anyway I chose the 3:00 time. A few hours later, I asked her if we could change it to 10:00. I figured it'd be an easy answer, yes or no. If it was no, I'd keep it at 3:00. If it was yes, I'd change it to 10:00.

She asked me why, are you no longer available at 3:00? I forget what I said but because I didn't tell her that my sister in law wanted to go work out then (we go to the gym sometimes based on her very inflexible schedule), she accused me of "ditching her for my sister in law", that I "liked my sister in law better than her" and that "I didn't want her and my sister in law to be friends." She also said that I "purposely didn't tell her that I wanted to change the times because my sister in law wanted to go to the gym with me."

Also recently, she had introduced me to a colleague of hers. We got along right away because we have a lot in common. She and I got together a couple of times to go to the dog park, and when said friend found out, she freaked, asking why I didn't invite her along. She said that she was the one who introduced us, and now I wasn't including her. No matter how many times I explained that I just didn't think of it, I don't know maybe the introvert in me just thought to keep it one on one, she accused me of not inviting her on purpose and said if it was her, she'd invite me.

Wow. I know I don't have the greatest interpersonal skills, and I told her that and tried to made a joke out it, but well... .wow. This was out of nowhere and I wasn't sure how to handle it. I don't play those games. I thought we all stopped that in high school. When I told her I thought her behavior was immature, she got extremely upset and gave me an earful. I wouldn't say she was yelling or angry, but boy did I get an earful of her wanting to tell me how I made her feel.

We got together for coffee finally to talk about things. Again, she wasn't angry or yelling but boy did I get an emotional earful of how I made her feel, and how I should've handled it. She also told me that she asked another girlfriend if she was crazy to be upset or if she had a right to be upset and supposedly the girlfriend said she would've said "F*CK OFF, BITCH!" to me and stuff like that.  

I am trying to be kind, loving, and tolerant. I let her talk to me in circles for over an hour. No matter how many times I apologized for how I made her feel, validated her feelings, explained that I don't play those kind of games, (she said she didn't think I did), I meant nothing by it, I didn't do anything on purpose to hurt her, I was sorry for being inconsiderate, insensitive, and appearing rude, etc. she just kept talking about it. I even told her how in hindsight I would've liked to have handle it. Finally I started crying just from the stress of this overwhelming experience and it was then that she let me off the hook. Which I don't understand. She told me she likes heated discussions, was she trying to tear me down until I broke? Why did she make me constantly repeat the same things? It never seemed good enough what I said. Did she need to see me cry in guilt or pain myself in order to fully feel like I meant what I was saying? I was very calm for the first 55 minutes.

I am very confused. I would think an apology at this state of life would go like this:

Friend: PFW, I thought you were a little rude and inconsiderate when you asked me to change the time for our coffee date.

Me: I was? Oh gosh, I am sorry about that. I didn't mean to be. Going forward, I will try not to do that again.

Friend: Ok! Thanks for the apology! Let's grab a coffee.

I want to be friends with her because I truly think she is a kindhearted person and I enjoy our time together. But now I wonder if what I did yesterday was "groveling", and if so, I do not want to be in a friendship like that. I've spent decades groveling to my BPD/NPD family members.

I guess I'd like to hear some honest answers here and no sugar coating please, I can take it. I am trying very hard to work on self-awareness and I'm making a lot of progress according to my husband and therapist, but I am not perfect. Did I deserve this?

[Omiss]

I have a room mate who has been diagnosed with BPD and she is completely opposite of the person you are talking about in your post.  Now maybe my room mate is one type and your friend is another.  I really do not know but I have only known one person (the roomie) as having been properly diagnosed with BPD.  My room mate is more or less into activity that is self harming at this time and has been for some time now.  She seeks relationships that are BAD for her in other words abbussive bc that is where she came from.  She runs hot and cold (that is how I see it) and if she is stressed out everything is 1000x worse and becomes a crisis, a fire I may have to put out.   She will be ugly to me one minute and sweet (mostly when she wants/needs something) the next.  She is also my BFF so this is really hard for me.  Like u I want to remain friends and we have been friends for over 25 years. We have been living tog now for like 12 years but it is hard b/c she has gotten worse since her father (her abuser) died last year. I don't know why I would think that would have set her free, so to speak.   Unlike the friend you speak of my room mate is very emotionally closed off.  She gets upset but not at things like your friend.  This sounds crazy but I am the one that gets more worried about her and worked up when I do not hear from her but only b/c she has been in bad situations before and has put herself in them.  I took the afternoon off today to put out a fire for her.  I missed two meetings and an evening apt.  Only for her to leave and run off with the ass she was dating who abused her.  Who she has said abused her and yet.  So I don't know if your friend has BPD or maybe she does and she is in a different part of her BPD.  I have no idea.  I just wanted to answer this post b/c like you I want to stay friends but I am struggling to do so b/c I am so even Steven and she is off the charts.  She just came out of therapy and is being committed again tomorrow.  Has your friend ever been diagnosed? 

[Peacefromwithin]

Thank you for your reply Omiss.   I am sorry to hear about your situation with your friend. I hope she gets the professional help she needs to be well.

To answer your question, I do not know if my friend was diagnosed since it's not my business, but her behavior has many red flags of BPD.

I noticed this is your first post. Have you thought about posting an introduction post on a new thread? That way other people and seasoned members can help direct you to resources and give you helpful suggestions.

Good luck to you.

[Turkish]

I've noticed this with my ex (the mother of our children) and also my BPD mother who lived with me and the kids for the first six months of last year.  It's like a script in their heads, and if there is a deviation,  then emotional dysregulation can ensue. I think you handled that ok.  You were sincere.

Anxiety about being abandoned (rejected?) is at the core of the disorder. Truthfully, none of us likes to feel abandoned. For a pwBPD, whose emotions are raw,  and can be uncontrollable? Perceived abandonment can be a huge emotional trigger. There is a core wound of abandonment, in early childhood. We can't fix this,  but we can validate in order to reduce conflict. Have you had a chance to look at the lessons at the top of the board? The communication strategies are summarized best in Lesson 3 on the Improving Board.

Perhaps understanding where she is coming from emotionally can provide a baseline .

[Peacefromwithin]

I've noticed this with my ex (the mother of our children) and also my BPD mother who lived with me and the kids for the first six months of last year.  It's like a script in their heads, and if there is a deviation,  then emotional dysregulation can ensue. I think you handled that ok.  You were sincere.

Thank you for posting, Turkish. I completely get that it's like a script in their heads, because 20 years ago I was just like that. I couldn't understand different perspectives. I wanted to, but I think the script in my head was such a powerful entity that I just could not. I tried to share an excellent example of when the script came into my own head with her and how I laughed at the absurdity of it. I guess I have better awareness that the script is silly and untrue. I'm just not sure I want a friendship like this where I have to walk on eggshells. But perhaps this is my chance to help someone suffering to make up for people who tried to help me.

Thank you for your feedback that you think I handled it ok and yes I was sincere. I think her fear messages in her head with fighting with her heart because I know the healthy part of her knew what I was saying was truth.

Anxiety about being abandoned (rejected?) is at the core of the disorder. Truthfully, none of us likes to feel abandoned. For a pwBPD, whose emotions are raw,  and can be uncontrollable? Perceived abandonment can be a huge emotional trigger. 

Yes I completely agree with that. I did some other work while in therapy and my teacher with that taught me that it boils down to this: fear of being rejected, abandoned, alone, etc. = FEAR OF NOT BEING LOVED.  I think pwBPD have a very poor sense of self-love that was created at an extremely young age. I'm not a recovered pwBPD but I do consider myself to be a recovered pwBPD traits so I have some insight in how I thought and behaved. The foundation for my own recovery was having a very kind therapist who knew how to speak with me and how to help me, coupled with a spiritual program that focused on a God as my healthy parent and what that looks like. It's sort of similar to Eckart Tolle type stuff because I learn to become aware of, and separate myself from, the old tapes in my head and question their truth. That's just my personal experience though.

I don't want a co-dependent relationship with this friend, but I did feel like she had an enormous need for me to make her feel ok. I felt a bit like she wanted me to grovel and I did not like that feeling. Nor will I continue a friendship like that. I will look at Lesson 3 on the Improving Board. Thank you for directing me there. :-) I very much appreciate how solution-based your messages are, as well as validating.

Perhaps understanding where she is coming from emotionally can provide a baseline.

I do understand where she is coming from but I could use the reminder I guess. Part of me wonders too if now that I am relatively healthy, I don't want the reminder of what I used to be like. I want healthy friends now. Then again, it makes me appreciate what I put my DH through all these years and helps me communicate to him clearly now what was really going through my mind over those years. I had an intense fear of abandonment and self-doubt, put there by sick family members who also trained me to depend on them. It's not an easy way to go through life.

I think I will send this friend a nice message today telling her how proud I am of her for all her accomplishments and let her know I appreciate having someone so kind and positive in my life.

I also will try to work more on acceptance of her baggage so to speak and see her goodness and not her sickness.

[Pilpel]

Finally I started crying just from the stress of this overwhelming experience and it was then that she let me off the hook. Which I don't understand.

I've seen this sort of behavior from my SIL. And, come to think of it, from one of my brothers.  You know that the point of conflict is completely irrational and that she's making a way bigger deal of it that it really is.  But what does it mean that she completely changes her tune when she gets that emotion from you?  She should have felt bad when she made you cry over something so trivial ... .but did she seem happy or satisfied instead?

With my SIL, we were spending the day together and she was acting moody the whole day.  Then she accused me of saying something that I didn't mean at all.  The car air conditioner I think was hitting my eye, and my eye started to water.  And when she saw me dabbing at tears in my eyes, suddenly her demeanor changed completely.  After being moody the whole day, she flashed the first big smile I'd ever seen from her as she asked, ":)id I make you cry?"  WTH? It was so weird and creepy.  I've never seen anything quite so weird like that since. But we've had moments of honest talk where she's admitted that it makes her feel good to get angry and intimidate people.  With my brother, I've seen something similar.  He's talked about feeling emotionally disconnected from people.  And I've seen him get angry at people for not giving him the attention he wants.  Then express satisfaction when he was able to get that person upset and in tears.

I understand feeling left out, of second guessing people, of wondering why people seem happy to accept my invitations to come over to my house but wondering what is wrong with me that they don't reciprocate.  But I would feel shame if they knew how I felt.  I want my friends to feel like awesome loved people when they're around me.  I don't want them to feel responsible for my insecurities.  I don't want that negativity in my friendships.  

She also told me that she asked another girlfriend if she was crazy to be upset or if she had a right to be upset and supposedly the girlfriend said she would've said "F*CK OFF, BITCH!" to me and stuff like that.

If this were my N/BPD SIL I wouldn't take a comment like this at face value.  My SIL does this, too.  We had a talk about some issues --at her reqeust-- and I took that opportunity to bring up a few things, including how she does things that I see as ways of invalidating me, like looking away when I talk.  She claims she consulted with some other friends about this, and they gave her advice back that I was the one with a problem.  I know for a fact that she has problems with every one she's close with.  I assume that she's always on a campaign to straighten someone out.  And when she's focused on one person, she likes to make them feel like they're the only person she's ever had a problem with.  

I didn't say this out loud, but I wish I did -- if she has good eye contact with other people and isn't as invalidating with them as she is with me-- then she can spend time with those good friends of hers.  So why does she want anything from me?  Just the same with this friend of yours.  There is a contradiction in the way she feels you're so important to her and you've made her feel slighted through something so little.  Yet she has other friends that she's spending time with and discussing you with.  So with such good friends advising her to tell you to "F' off," what does she need you for?

[Peacefromwithin]

I've seen this sort of behavior from my SIL. And, come to think of it, from one of my brothers.  You know that the point of conflict is completely irrational and that she's making a way bigger deal of it that it really is.  But what does it mean that she completely changes her tune when she gets that emotion from you?  She should have felt bad when she made you cry over something so trivial ... .but did she seem happy or satisfied instead?

Exactly... .I knew she was making a way bigger deal of it than it really was, but I tried to validate her feelings and realize she was just feeling hurt and sensitive. I tried hard to show her how it really wasn't a big deal, by being matter of fact in a kind tone. It didn't seem to work.

I'm not sure what it means when she changed her tune when she got me crying. I couldn't tell. I'd like to think she's not evil like my mother who used to be satisfied with an evil grin when I cried or apologized or groveled or whatever. I don't think this friend is that manipulative. But I got a strange feeling in my gut wondering if she needs friendships where she's always got the upper hand or something. I'm going to have to tread carefully here and see how I feel next time I am with her.

With my SIL, we were spending the day together and she was acting moody the whole day.  Then she accused me of saying something that I didn't mean at all.  The car air conditioner I think was hitting my eye, and my eye started to water.  And when she saw me dabbing at tears in my eyes, suddenly her demeanor changed completely.  After being moody the whole day, she flashed the first big smile I'd ever seen from her as she asked, ":)id I make you cry?"  WTH? It was so weird and creepy.  I've never seen anything quite so weird like that since.

Did she realize she was acting moody and apologize, or were you just supposed to cater to her mood? I can't stand being accused of saying something I didn't mean. I don't want to have to watch my words around my friend and you shouldn't have to watch your words around your SIL. That is very creepy that your SIL smiled when she thought she made you cry. Why would someone be happy about that?

But we've had moments of honest talk where she's admitted that it makes her feel good to get angry and intimidate people.  With my brother, I've seen something similar.  He's talked about feeling emotionally disconnected from people.  And I've seen him get angry at people for not giving him the attention he wants.  Then express satisfaction when he was able to get that person upset and in tears.

This friend admitted she enjoys heated fights/conversations and that is so not who I am. It sounds like there's similarities between her and your SIL. My mother used to and still does feel good when she gets angry and intimidates people. Actually, my uBPD sister LOVES to do that. It's sickening.   It's like they get some kind of sick power over shoving people below them and then kicking them when they're down. It's sadistic, really. I don't think this friend is that bad, but I'm going to have to have my antenna's up next time I spend time with her.

I understand feeling left out, of second guessing people, of wondering why people seem happy to accept my invitations to come over to my house but wondering what is wrong with me that they don't reciprocate.  But I would feel shame if they knew how I felt.  I want my friends to feel like awesome loved people when they're around me.  I don't want them to feel responsible for my insecurities.  I don't want that negativity in my friendships.  

That's so sweet and kind of you wanting people to feel loved and comfortable in your home. I know sometimes my husband says I turn people off because I try way too hard. I have to practice at just letting people be and not worry about fixing them.
 

If this were my N/BPD SIL I wouldn't take a comment like this at face value.  My SIL does this, too.  We had a talk about some issues --at her reqeust-- and I took that opportunity to bring up a few things, including how she does things that I see as ways of invalidating me, like looking away when I talk.  She claims she consulted with some other friends about this, and they gave her advice back that I was the one with a problem.  I know for a fact that she has problems with every one she's close with.  I assume that she's always on a campaign to straighten someone out.  And when she's focused on one person, she likes to make them feel like they're the only person she's ever had a problem with.

This was very helpful. I hadn't even thought that she could've been lying when she said she checked with our people about my messages and what I said to her. I also know she has fights with two of her other friends because she's called me about them. Again she seems to really love the high-drama, extremely angry sort of fights. Then there's her sister, who is a sweet, sweet woman and I've already figured out that she's a major placater and people-pleaser. I also met her BIL and SIL once and I could tell when I mentioned that I was a friend of hers, they gave me "interesting" looks, I'll just leave it at that. They looked uncomfortable. Again, I do think this said friend is trying really hard to be healthy, but I've been through too much with my BPD/NPD family to put up with this sort of toxic behavior so I'm going to have to really think about this.

I'm sorry her lack of eye contact makes you feel invalidated. I know I suck at eye contact but that's purely due to anxiety. When I'm in the present moment, my eye contact is much better. I sometimes wonder if people with BPD just don't make good eye contact because they are so overly focused on what they're thinking and on how they're feeling and on how we're making them feel, etc.

Another thing I noticed is that she seems to want our friendship to be the way she wants it to be. Like for example, let's say I have a friend who is always 10 minutes late. I just note it in the back of my mind that this friend is usually 10 minutes late, and I plan accordingly. I certainly don't take it personally, get angry or annoyed, gossip about her always being late, tell her that I'd like her to be on time, etc. I let her be who she is. But this likely BPD friend--she seems to repeatedly bring up how she always calls me and I should call her. I've told her why I'm not the type who usually calls to make plans. I've said it multiple times. I've joked about it in a self-depricating way. I feel like she won't accept who I am and wants to change me into the type of friend she wants me to be and that I don't like. It's not my fault she takes my quirks personally. I've told her a dozen of times that I isolate, I don't have the best social skills, I'm not that great at making new friends. Why won't she just accept it?

I didn't say this out loud, but I wish I did -- if she has good eye contact with other people and isn't as invalidating with them as she is with me-- then she can spend time with those good friends of hers.  

I'm sorry; I thought she just had bad eye contact with everyone. My guess, then, is she has poor eye contact with you but not them, because she's intimidated by you or something. I think that's why she has to put you down or make you cry. She doesn't realize that everyone in life are human equals. I think pwbPD are constantly putting people and themselves as "less than" or "better than" in their heads. Constantly measuring and judging because they feel measured and judged I guess.

So why does she want anything from me?  Just the same with this friend of yours.  There is a contradiction in the way she feels you're so important to her and you've made her feel slighted through something so little.  Yet she has other friends that she's spending time with and discussing you with.  So with such good friends advising her to tell you to "F' off," what does she need you for?

This confused me, too. If she doesn't like the kind of friend I am, then don't be friends with me. I won't put up with a friend who tries to change me or one I have to walk on egg shells around. Yes I was very disturbed that she discussed what I did and said to a friend she has who she tells me how she talks. This said friend sounds very, very sick. Extremely harsh, tough, and curses without caring how she's talking or acting is affecting others. Part of me almost wishes she took said friend's advice and told me to "F' off". Maybe I would've been better off. I hope she is not the type who's bored and wants drama and screaming fights. I won't stand for it.

A friend of mine even said that I shouldn't have spent an hour saying the same thing. I should've said it once, and if she kept persisting, I should have calmly said something like, "Are we still on this or can we change the conversation now?" I forget his exact wording, it was more polite than that but I don't recall. But it was basically a polite but direct way to say that I will not spend an hour repeating myself until I've groveled enough for you to feel better. Either you accept my apology and we change the subject, or we end the conversation/friendship now. I wish I had done that then. I feel like I wasn't kind and loving toward myself by how I kept trying to make her feel better.

Good luck with your SIL. Set boundaries and practice good self-care and self-kindness.

[Pilpel]

Peacefromwithin,

She told me she likes heated discussions

Oh, I wanted to add, my SIL has also mentioned that "in her culture" they like to argue things out.  I don't know what your friend is like, but I took that as just more BS from my SIL.  Because she offers no fairness in arguing since she is thin skinned in what she takes offense to, yet she can dish out some pretty nasty hostility.  And then when she's put on the spot, she starts to make things up and twist facts around.  That's not arguing things out where I come from.  Regarding what your friend said, I think of "heated discussions" as something involving politics, ideas, belief systems, etc.  Nitpicking and blaming you for changing the time of a get together is just petty.

Did she realize she was acting moody and apologize, or were you just supposed to cater to her mood?

I guess I was supposed to cater to her mood.  She gave a half hearted apology about a week or so later.  But when she found out I had advised my brother not to marry her, the crap hit the fan.  I figured if she was really sorry for what she'd done, she would have understood why I warned him not marry her.  But it didn't work that way for her. Rather than see herself as she is, or acknowledge other people's points of view, I basically would describe her as someone who forces her reality on others, to the point of being a bully.

I hadn't even thought that she could've been lying when she said she checked with our people about my messages and what I said to her.

Another scenario is that she mentioned the situation to an acquaintance.  For some people, the knee jerk response is to just mirror back what she's saying.  They either don't know her well enough to question her reasons for being upset, or they do know her and they just want to say something placating because there isn't a point in challenging her.  But now she feels like she has someone who validates her point of view.  And she uses that conversation as a way to try to manipulate you.  In that case, it may as well be made up. 

My guess, then, is she has poor eye contact with you but not them, because she's intimidated by you or something.

I'm not really sure what's behind it.  It's one of many things she's done over the years that I thought was purposely invalidating.  The description of it sounds pretty benign.  But to be more descriptive, she did make great eye contact ... .when she was doing the talking.  But when I tried to interject anything into the conversation, she would look away, sometimes at a complete 180 degrees, look at her hands, and sometimes she would just look annoyed or simply not acknowledge that I said anything.  It would get me flustered. To her credit, despite the fact that she denied the extent that she did this, she has made an effort to make eye contact since then. But she's still unpleasant to be around.  Even when we're not walking on eggshells, it's unpleasant being around her.

It sounds like you're taking a cautious wait and see approach to your friend.  Which is fair.  As you've told it, I think your friendship can only grow if she shows some signs of understanding that she blew things out of proportion and shows a sincere regret for how she acted and how she made you feel.  Or if you bring it up and she responds in a genuine way.  If neither of you say anything, it's always going to be there, even if she doesn't do it again. I've experienced that with my SIL.  She's been better around me, in some ways.  But the more normal she acts, the more angry I am about the things she's done and has ignored and avoided being held accountable for.  I wish you luck dealing with this friend.

Just some words of encouragement -- Difficult people are a challenge and an opportunity for growth.  My family has always been too naive with people and we've had very squishy boundaries, so in a way I do think it's been good for us to deal with someone who forces us to toughen up our boundaries.  For years  I felt like a deer in the headlights dealing with her.  And I've seen a similar reaction from my parents and other relatives.  It's just how we are.  But dealing with her has allowed me to define my boundaries, and get a good look at how a person can manipulate and lie and not even realize that they're the offender in a situation. It makes me see these qualities in other (even more normal) people, and in myself.  And spending time with someone who always exists just off the road of reality, makes me aware of the ways that everyone does. 

[Turkish]

Exactly... .I knew she was making a way bigger deal of it than it really was, but I tried to validate her feelings and realize she was just feeling hurt and sensitive. I tried hard to show her how it really wasn't a big deal, by being matter of fact in a kind tone. It didn't seem to work.

This is actually invalidating. Tone helps, but words ultimately matter. It's easy to fall into this trap, and we are often left wondering,  "what just happened?" Logic and reason don't get traction in these situations.  This might help:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0;all  (JADE)

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating (validation and invalidation)

Tell us what you think.

T

[Peacefromwithin]

This is actually invalidating. Tone helps, but words ultimately matter. It's easy to fall into this trap, and we are often left wondering,  "what just happened?" Logic and reason don't get traction in these situations.  This might help:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0;all  (JADE)

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating (validation and invalidation)

Tell us what you think.

T

Thanks for pointing this out, Turk. I didn't explain it well. I was very careful all through out to not be invalidating. My intention in that particular moment was to show her gently and politely what her thinking was telling her, and what was truth and what was a lie. This is something that helped me greatly in my own work. I feel that she was just overwhelmed and engulfed by what her feelings were telling her, instead of putting her feelings aside and looking at the situation logically. I guess I was trying to help her take a step aside from her feelings. I didn't think it was fair to myself to have the whole hour long conversation be about validating her feelings repeatedly. That's not my role in a friendship.

You are right. I was trying to apply logic to this situation. It might work for me now in my life due to the work I did, but it doesn't work for people who didn't do the work I did. I can't get into it, but I thought due to her profession, she would see what I was saying, but she didn't. It went in one ear and out the other.

I will read the message links now. Thank you once again for posting me links. I would much rather learn, understand, and have tools to use for solutions, then to come on here and replay all the crap.   The later is extremely energy draining and sucks the life out of me.

[Turkish]

It might work for me now in my life due to the work I did, but it doesn't work for people who didn't do the work I did

I think this is a good way to view it.  Many here don't realize this,  especially with romantic partners.  Heck, after learning a lot on the Detaching Board vis-a-vis the mother of our children, I forgot a lot of it when my mom lived with us last year.  pwBPD not only have intense,  often uncontrollable emotions, but they view the world differently as well.  A personality disorder is defined as behaviors outside the norms for a given culture.  They can certainly be logical,  hence the term "high-functioning" (most of whom may be sub-clinical).