How to Improve pwBPD Behavior -- Threats and Ridicule

[Radcliff]

Hello,

Recently, I advised someone on this board to start with small victories and have modest expectations for improving pwBPD behavior, that the only thing she could do was control her own actions.  I realized that I needed to heed my own advice.  The problem is that I'm hungry for more.  My wife talks about divorce on 1-2 week cycles, yet I'm sure she wants me to magically fix everything and be her dream husband.  I will never be that person.  Yet there is enough good that I'm willing to keep at it for a while.  That said, I need life to get better.  I need it to feed my soul, and to model a better way of being for my daughters.

To give you an idea of where I'm at, we have a 23 year marriage, with three teenage daughters.  I found out about BPD six years ago, but have really only been doing serious work for the last two.  I'm pretty good usually about managing my reactive behaviors, would give myself, an A- grade on validation, a B- on avoiding JADE, and I'm still a novice at DEAR MAN.

Two specific things I'd like to improve are thermonuclear threats and ridicule.  Of the two, ridicule is perhaps the more important, since it really tears my heart out, saddens me, stresses me, makes me feel like I should be out of the relationship, etc.  By "improve," I mean it happens less, not just that I'm managing myself better.  We've been together for 28 years, so she knows every mistake I've made.  She is honestly brilliant with any personal issues that don't involve her, so when she's doing well she can be an excellent mirror.  But when skies darken, she can be devastating in her criticism, particularly when it is laced with truth, then blown out of proportion.  The most cutting remarks are on my failings as a father.  She also says that I am valueless to her.   I won't go into more detail, but she's quite effective, and often late at night when I'm exhausted.  Of course, any direct requests for improvement hit a wall -- I deserve it, she is just telling the truth, I'm being oversensitive, etc. etc.  I've been to a few funerals lately, and am contemplating what I need to do in order to feel like I've done the best with this life.  This is one of the things that needs to get better.

She makes nuclear threats when she is frustrated and struggling for control.  A common threat is to cancel a family vacation, or to cancel my ticket for a family vacation.  She most recently threatened to cancel travel plans that she'd made for 11 of us to gather at the beach for a week with my dying mother.  She aims for maximum impact.  She rarely follows through, but it can get harrowing (I saved one dream vacation literally one hour before the plane took off).  I know that managing my reactions is key here, but it would be nice to be able to get some improvements, to get her to see that this is counterproductive to the relationship.  I know I may sound naive in this hope, but I'll take any potentially helpful suggestions!

Thank you!

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[teapay]

What if it wasn't your wife ridiculing you as you describe or canceling your vacation?  What if it was someone else like a coworker, other relative, neighbor or member of church?  How would you handle it?

[Tattered Heart]

These are two areas that I struggle with a lot too. The shaming/ridicule is the thing that hurts quite a bit. I think this is an area that I have improved on a lot in the last year, especially in the last month or so.

When my H begins to shame me, my response is: "That hurts me. You are just being mean because you want to hurt me." or "You are being mean. That's abusive to say that." I don't know why, but this phrase stops my H in his tracks and he will either agree that's what he is doing an apologize or he sees what he is doing and goes back to the main argument. I think it works because I say it so matter of factly, without emotion, but with confidence. He sees that I'm being serious.

As for trips, my H tries to do this too. Again, I've recently started doing a couple things. If we are within a short time frame of the trip of event, I will give him one chance to cancel if he threatens. But the contingency on canceling the trip or plans is that HE has to handle all the cancellations--calling everyone to tell them we aren't coming, canceling rooms, etc. This is too much for him to comprehend doing. He could never call and cancel plans on someone. He couldn't make the phone call to get $ back on reservations, etc. That's not what he does. I'm the one who plans things.

If he begins to get angry right before we go, I just tell him no. We are not canceling because there isn't enough time. I tell him that I want him to go with me, but he does not have to. And that if he doesn't want to go, he doesn't have to. If he decides not to go with me, I will not make excuses for him. He will often ask me to tell others he had to work, etc. so he couldn't make it. I tell him I won't do that. I tell him if they ask that I will just tell them he didn't want to go and that if they have other questions they can call him directly.

[pearlsw]

Hi Radcliff,

I can relate to some of what you describe. I am sorry to hear about the ridicule! That is painful. Are there other ways you can feel validated or happy about your being a father? Do the kids say/do nice things for you? I know we aren't supposed to bother with JADE-ING, but I wonder if you making "I feel" statements could help? Things like, "I feel like I do a good job as a father. I feel ridiculed when you describe my parenting." I dunno. I am not great at them!

I wonder if just reframing your own feelings about parenting, when she is not in a black phase, and giving her a chance to see how cruel and awful her words are would eventually sink in? "I enjoy being a father. I may make some mistakes as a father, but it has brought a lot to my life to have kids and I enjoy it." Not defending, but just centering yourself about how you really see and feel about the situation. And then just holding to your center despite the junk that gets thrown at you.

I am lucky compared to a lot of folks here. I am not torn down quite so much, in the white phases I get a lot of praise actually, and I also came into this with a strong sense of self so he hasn't managed to put a big dent in my self-esteem, just my sense of hope, but even that he has not yet killed. I am more just shocked and offended by all he does when he is in a black phase. It is anything goes for him, but he also has some sense of guilt and shame because of his religious beliefs.

I wonder if just printing something out like this page on humiliation for her to read could give her pause to rethink what she is doing? www.emotionalcompetency.com/humiliation.htm I wonder if you talk about ridicule in a general sense, and not in a way that puts her on the defensive could encourage her to be more positive/rethink her behaviors? Well, we can dream!  

I am on the one to two week cycle as well. It is hardly enough time to recover from the punches from the last round, just as you are getting back on your feet, when the person comes in and delivers more verbal blows. And I get the "thermonuclear" thing you mention. I have asked him in the past why he must bring a nuclear bomb to such a small, easily resolvable disagreement? It did get him thinking.

With time, I have managed to cut out some of this stuff, reduce a bit of his horrible attacks, but I have no time to be tired, or phone it in. I have to stay ever alert to his moods, hold mine in check when I can, and just move on. But I am in constant anxious fear of the next go around. It is DEVASTATING to have someone constantly threaten the entire relationship. I can't help but say lately to him is "this is not normal." It is life-draining for sure.

When she is being more clear, and not so mean, is there any way to communicate to her that by beating you up over your failings all the time she is actually damaging you? Is there a way to communicate that you care about being a father and want to always be improving at it? You can't undo any mistakes in the past, but here you are in the present and you would appreciate support instead of ridicule and shame? I mean, for goodness sakes, what good does ridicule and shame do? What does she get from tearing you down? Does it make her feel like a better parent than you and therefore she is somehow better? Why not help support you if only to help her daughters? I know, this is rational thinking, and may not make any difference whatsoever, but argh!

In the end though, I think it is important for you to give yourself the appreciation and positive input you need on this if she is not going to. Sit down with yourself and decide what it is you think you have done well and stay clear about that no matter the slings and arrows that come your way. And be honest about any failings, and just work on them yourself. You and I both know that oftentimes our partners don't provide what a partner without these issues might provide in terms of emotional support and understanding. Keep depersonalizing and it hurts a bit less. Adjust your expectation and find other healthy ways to meet the needs. I know by letting go of my expectations I hurt less. Some days I ache, and feel sad. He does not provide much emotional support and I am CONSTANTLY having to attend to his emotions. It just is. I cheer myself up in other ways mostly, but sometimes he is willing/able to be sweet and warm.  

Thanks for your post. I am actually encouraged by parts of it, that you have made improvements in some areas. I think this is great to try and focus on making some change on these two points: the parenting criticism and always blowing up the travel plans. Best wishes!

[teapay]

Those who ridicule do so in an environmental where their ridicule is tolerated and there is no negative cost against that type of behavior.   In those cases, the perp is gaining a benefit from it, by discharging negative feelings onto the person who is the object.  There is no reason to stop and rather discomfort for the perp if discontinued.

Ridiculing behavior is bad for those being ridiculed, bad for those doing it and bad for the children who observe it and learn to ridicule others or tolerate being ridiculed themselves.  It is not something to be coped with in a relationship.  It is something to be eliminated from the relationship.  That is done by not tolerating it and instituting negative consequences toward the behavior that make it not worth doing.  Of course, this could get messy due to extinction bursts and other kinds of maladaptive adaptions.  The process could ambiguous and require problem solving along the way, but if stuck to the behaviors can be eliminated for the most part or the relationship dissolved.  If ridicule is the glue holding the relationship together, maybe dissolution is best.  Once gone, the absence of ridicule is a major benefit to everyone in the family.

[Radcliff]

Tattered Heart, pearlsw, and teapay,

Thank you so much for being generous with your time and thoughts!  It's really helpful to hear each perspective -- each one holds different truths for me, and taken together it helps me see a lot of the big picture.  I'll reread your posts several times and consider each suggestion.  Tattered Heart and pearlsw, a lot of it comes down to timing, I think, which is not one of my strengths.  When she is ridiculing, if I tell her how it makes me feel, (which is when I want to say it) it actually eggs her on.  I think matter of factly mentioning how it makes me feel and how counterproductive it is when we're in a better period, and then moving on without dwelling on it, might work better.  teapay, thanks for spelling it out in your second post.  I agree that it is totally unacceptable, and shouldn't be tolerated, but your clarity helps me to strengthen my resolve.  You are helping me remember a breakthrough I had that I think I'd lost the recipe for.  I am not great at figuring out consequences (a topic my wife legitimately observes could be better in my parenting, and I hadn't seen quite how that issue bridged both parenting and husbanding until now).  If I leave a conversaton, it's hugely invalidating and a trigger for my wife.  In the past I have sometimes gotten flooded and left early.  Being patient and sticking it out can be helpful.  OK, so the technique I learned and then forgot is to give her several warnings that I'm thinking about leaving the conversation if she is crossing boundaries, indicating that I'd like to stay, but being calm and clear in my resolve to leave.  Abandonment is a huge issue for her.  The act of leaving itself can be counterproductive, but being willing to leave while wanting to stay can be very powerful.

Does anyone have any other ideas about consequences?  I know this is very particular to each person, and that's part of the art of relationships, but I'd be happy to hear of any consequences that help you with boundary setting.

With the nuclear threats thing, I've got fewer ideas.  The best I have is to mention it to her in a white time, matter of factly and in passing, without any expectation that she will agree, but perhaps it will have an impact later.  The thing that has messed with my head for decades is that I am such a linear thinker and working with her is anything but.  Agreeing on something out in the open is rarely going to happen.  She doesn't want to feel like she's being influenced, or let me have any inclination that I'm successful in influencing her.  So I'll have to mention something and just see what happens later, without any explicit agreement.

Thank you all again!

P.S.  I'm feeling a little spring in my step as I walk to work   You made a difference in my day!

[teapay]

A,

You might be misunderstanding me alittle.  Walking away from someone who ridiculing or abusing us is a great tool and should be used.  It is a negative consequence in and of itself, and one that greatly impact a BPD because they hate it so much.  Yes, it is explicitly invalidating the abuser, but that type of behavior should be invalidated.   In fact, the walking away is best prefaced by 1) a warning, that if ridicule or any other bad behavior continues, walking away would be a consequence, and 2) if ridicule and other behavior stop for good, then conversion is welcome.  If ridicule does continue, then walk, keep walking and document everything (these other behaviors become more of their own consequence).  By stick it out, I mean the walking away and documenting despite the behavior.  I had to stick out through all kinds of bad behavior, but it finally turned the corner when my W realized she was going to be left in her own misery.

I believe the primary tool for BPD is to confront it with boundaries and consequences, making sure you are as well protected as you can be.  I primarily use validation as a tool of positive reinforcement for behaviors that are healthy.  While I believe emotions exist, I don’t believe feelings and emotions are inherently valid. There is no sound philosophical or moral basis for the view and it has been discredited for thousands of years.  I also don’t believe in using the techniques of validation like a sort of prairie chicken dance to a mentally ill person, preparing the field of communication, so they won’t go of on me.  Normal folks use validation all the time in their daily relationships and interactions, generally in unconscious ways, without the drama.  I view JADING similarly and have no problem JADING about what I want or why I made a decision or whatever the issue.  If a normal person had issue with me I would JADE.  Happens every day at work and in life.  It is more important for the Non to adapt and grow into normalcy than for the Non to professionalize codependency and adapt in ways that reduce conflict in the relationship.

[Radcliff]

You might be misunderstanding me alittle.  Walking away from someone who ridiculing or abusing us is a great tool and should be used.  It is a negative consequence in and of itself, and one that greatly impact a BPD because they hate it so much.  Yes, it is explicitly invalidating the abuser, but that type of behavior should be invalidated.   In fact, the walking away is best prefaced by 1) a warning, that if ridicule or any other bad behavior continues, walking away would be a consequence, and 2) if ridicule and other behavior stop for good, then conversion is welcome.  If ridicule does continue, then walk, keep walking and document everything (these other behaviors become more of their own consequence).  By stick it out, I mean the walking away and documenting despite the behavior.  I had to stick out through all kinds of bad behavior, but it finally turned the corner when my W realized she was going to be left in her own misery.

Hi teapay, actually I think we are totally on the same page w.r.t. your comments above.  I was probably not clear enough.  By "invalidating" I didn't mean that walking away is a always a bad thing, probably not the best choice of words.  She sees it as invalidating.  In instances where I show too little patience and walk away without warning, we might agree that I've invalidated in an unproductive way.  But the majority of the time I'm pretty patient, and we'll end up in poisonous territory.  In those cases, I think using the warning and following up with consequences is the thing to do.  When I've used the warning in a firm but non-inflammatory way, I've seen her walk herself back from the brink a few times and become better regulated.  It's these successes that I need to get back to by consistently remembering the warning and follow through pattern.

I believe the primary tool for BPD is to confront it with boundaries and consequences, making sure you are as well protected as you can be. 

Yup.

I primarily use validation as a tool of positive reinforcement for behaviors that are healthy. 

I think I could stand to use validation as a positive reinforcement tool more -- thanks for the suggestion. 

While I believe emotions exist, I don’t believe feelings and emotions are inherently valid. There is no sound philosophical or moral basis for the view and it has been discredited for thousands of years.  I also don’t believe in using the techniques of validation like a sort of prairie chicken dance to a mentally ill person, preparing the field of communication, so they won’t go of on me. 

I have found that validating my wife's feelings (as feelings and her experience, not as facts) can be helpful in keeping her feeling safe, understood, and regulated.  If I stick to only validating true things, this works for me.  The idea that someone's feelings and emotions are real to them is a concept that also works for me.  To me, acknowledging someone's feelings is important, not too tough, and effective and not a BPD thing -- it just works, and is even more critical for BPD's.  I kind of get where you're coming from, though.  Some of my wife's reactions are ridiculous from my perspective.  Drama, anxiety, and stress about things that should not be causing those reactions.  I suppose I should qualify by saying that I don't tell her that her feelings are reasonable (unless I think they are), by "validating" I mean that I acknowledge that she feels that way, I don't try to convince her that she feels differently, and I don't challenge the feelings if I disagree (though I might challenge behavior like yelling, etc.)

I view JADING similarly and have no problem JADING about what I want or why I made a decision or whatever the issue.  If a normal person had issue with me I would JADE.  Happens every day at work and in life.  It is more important for the Non to adapt and grow into normalcy than for the Non to professionalize codependency and adapt in ways that reduce conflict in the relationship.

For me, it helps to avoid reactive JADEing.  That's the thing that in my experience makes things worse and doesn't give me any payback that makes me defend the use of it.  I like the strength of acting like I don't have to defend myself.  Once I start to defend, I'm acknowledging responsibility and a weak position.  W.r.t. a typical person, I think it's easier to have give and take, but it's also possible to JADE nonconstructively.  pwBPD are way more sensitive.

The topic of how much we bend or contort ourselves to live with someone with BPD is a big one.  It can definitely go too far, and it seems like for every person and couple, that point is in a different place.  It can be hard to figure out where it is.  When I have energy reserves for empathy, or I'm getting payback because the technique is effective and feels like I'm not sacrificing myself, it's good.  This balance is exactly what I'm struggling with, though.

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

Thank you all for putting so much into this thread.  I am grateful.  I'm going offline through next Friday for a family vacation, so if you keep going on this thread that's awesome, but don't interpret my silence as disengaging.  I'll be back online the weekend of the 11th!

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

Thank you again for the support.  I was just rereading this thread, and benefited again from your advice.  As it happened, the vacation went well.  Everyone was on their best behavior