Is it a trap..? Episode II

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well I've locked out two threads now... .I promise to give back!  Here is what was last posted, there's been some updates I'll comment in second posting.

Well here is the update... .it was good, then bad, then good, now bad.  Surprised?  Me neither.   I'll try to keep this short (yeah right... ).  But I may need help figuring out my part in these problems.

Friday before Christmas ran a few errands after work and we eventually went over to a friends house to hang out and watch the snow fall with a few other couples and let the kids play.  It was nice, I still felt a bit awkward, that the social situation was a bit forced.  I love our friends, but it felt to me the way she was acting and talking and projecting future times that she was completely ignoring anything that was going on.  She keeps telling me that she wants to live in the present... ok thats fine.  We can still have a great time, but I feel like she was putting on a show.  I felt like she was putting me on the spot to make it out like everything was great and if I wavered or disagreed I would be seen as the bad guy.  I couldn't tell if this was just another way of controlling me, or am I being overly sensitive here to her trying to have a positive outlook.  I feel like past behavior has me jaded rather than open and optimistic...   Thoughts?

Saturday was good, I did all the last minute running around in the terrible weather (always been my job, and I don't mind) she was busy cleaning and baking goods.  We communicated throughout the day and it felt rather "normal".  It was a bit chaotic of a day but I recall towards the end of the day getting together and enjoying some time as a family.

Sunday morning was good, last minute prep, decorating cookies, putting presents under the tree.  I could still feel some under currents of dismay but as I said previously I was going to ignore them.  My parents came over, we had fun, ate tons of food, drank far too much wine and it felt like home.  My parents spent the night (as they have for years) and again it all felt "ok"

Xmas day we wake up its snowing like crazy, the kids are opening presents,  uBPDw and I each got each other a very thoughtful gift that took some serious effort on both parts.  Then she "one upped" me.  She got me some stereo equipment that while cool and awesome, I really didnt need, couldn't really use with the setup we had, and frankly we had already talked about not going overboard with each other.  Now I'm stuck in the position of looking ungrateful.  I'm not sure if its me that I feel bad that I didnt have extra for her or I'm mad that she spent an extra $1,500 when we already dropped over $2k on the rest of the family.  (side note here, she had bad xmas experience as a kid so every year its a fight over spending WAY too much, I've long since given up and do my best to budget it in).  Just like in the relationship I feel stuck.  She's again put me in a position to accept something or look like a jerk.  I think she at some point sensed my discomfort and didnt push it, which was great.  Then the trouble starts.  The plow guy she hired came by and just did a quick hit because my parents car was in the driveway.  I had previously asked her not to hire a plow because the shape of our driveway makes it impossible to do correctly (I used to plow, I know). Now because of the extra car its a mess.  It will take me twice as long to clean up the plows mess than if I had just zipped out there on my own with the snow blower.  This isnt something new.  I have told her for 17 years not to hire a plow.  I will admit I got overly grumpy.  The pain point she pushed earlier by hiring a plow was now hitting me square in the face an hour before dinner on xmas.  I stormed out and said rather hastily that if she had listened to me I wouldnt have to be dealing with this now.  Of course the sarcastic remarks and passive aggressive behavior came out in full force.  Later in the night she was still mad even after I apologized for having a short temper.  She asked me to leave the bedroom which I refused because I wasnt going down that road again... .So she left and slept in D10's bed.

Fast forward to today, I'm at work receiving non stop texts telling me that I made my choice not to move back in permanently so therefore its no longer my home again... .  here we go back on the wagon again.  I told her I was keeping some items at my parents house because the break helped us before, we made need it again.  I also reminded her that she on several occasions threw my clothes around the house, out the window, ripped up old notes and broke special items therefore I was keeping some of that stuff out of the house until she could comfortably tell me that she would no longer engage in that behavior.  I don't know if that was the wrong thing to do. Part of me feels like by having stuff elsewhere its feeding into her abandonment issues, but for me, I'm just sick and tired of hauling it back and forth waiting for her to exploded and trash it all again.  I don't think she realizes how that affected me. 

I guess I've been down the rabbit hole so long I don't know what is appropriate, where the self love/selfish line is, and when I'm actually the one being a stubborn ass.  The self doubt and confusion is really getting to me.  I feel like this really is it, if I don't move back fully its over, if I move back and there is too many open wounds its over... .just a wonderful way to live.

[ozmatoz]

Well I've locked out two threads now... .I promise to give back!  Here is what was last posted, there's been some updates I'll comment in second posting.

Well here is the update... .it was good, then bad, then good, now bad.  Surprised?  Me neither.   I'll try to keep this short (yeah right... ).  But I may need help figuring out my part in these problems.

Friday before Christmas ran a few errands after work and we eventually went over to a friends house to hang out and watch the snow fall with a few other couples and let the kids play.  It was nice, I still felt a bit awkward, that the social situation was a bit forced.  I love our friends, but it felt to me the way she was acting and talking and projecting future times that she was completely ignoring anything that was going on.  She keeps telling me that she wants to live in the present... ok thats fine.  We can still have a great time, but I feel like she was putting on a show.  I felt like she was putting me on the spot to make it out like everything was great and if I wavered or disagreed I would be seen as the bad guy.  I couldn't tell if this was just another way of controlling me, or am I being overly sensitive here to her trying to have a positive outlook.  I feel like past behavior has me jaded rather than open and optimistic...   Thoughts?

Saturday was good, I did all the last minute running around in the terrible weather (always been my job, and I don't mind) she was busy cleaning and baking goods.  We communicated throughout the day and it felt rather "normal".  It was a bit chaotic of a day but I recall towards the end of the day getting together and enjoying some time as a family.

Sunday morning was good, last minute prep, decorating cookies, putting presents under the tree.  I could still feel some under currents of dismay but as I said previously I was going to ignore them.  My parents came over, we had fun, ate tons of food, drank far too much wine and it felt like home.  My parents spent the night (as they have for years) and again it all felt "ok"

Xmas day we wake up its snowing like crazy, the kids are opening presents,  uBPDw and I each got each other a very thoughtful gift that took some serious effort on both parts.  Then she "one upped" me.  She got me some stereo equipment that while cool and awesome, I really didnt need, couldn't really use with the setup we had, and frankly we had already talked about not going overboard with each other.  Now I'm stuck in the position of looking ungrateful.  I'm not sure if its me that I feel bad that I didnt have extra for her or I'm mad that she spent an extra $1,500 when we already dropped over $2k on the rest of the family.  (side note here, she had bad xmas experience as a kid so every year its a fight over spending WAY too much, I've long since given up and do my best to budget it in).  Just like in the relationship I feel stuck.  She's again put me in a position to accept something or look like a jerk.  I think she at some point sensed my discomfort and didnt push it, which was great.  Then the trouble starts.  The plow guy she hired came by and just did a quick hit because my parents car was in the driveway.  I had previously asked her not to hire a plow because the shape of our driveway makes it impossible to do correctly (I used to plow, I know). Now because of the extra car its a mess.  It will take me twice as long to clean up the plows mess than if I had just zipped out there on my own with the snow blower.  This isnt something new.  I have told her for 17 years not to hire a plow.  I will admit I got overly grumpy.  The pain point she pushed earlier by hiring a plow was now hitting me square in the face an hour before dinner on xmas.  I stormed out and said rather hastily that if she had listened to me I wouldnt have to be dealing with this now.  Of course the sarcastic remarks and passive aggressive behavior came out in full force.  Later in the night she was still mad even after I apologized for having a short temper.  She asked me to leave the bedroom which I refused because I wasnt going down that road again... .So she left and slept in D10's bed.

Fast forward to today, I'm at work receiving non stop texts telling me that I made my choice not to move back in permanently so therefore its no longer my home again... .  here we go back on the wagon again.  I told her I was keeping some items at my parents house because the break helped us before, we made need it again.  I also reminded her that she on several occasions threw my clothes around the house, out the window, ripped up old notes and broke special items therefore I was keeping some of that stuff out of the house until she could comfortably tell me that she would no longer engage in that behavior.  I don't know if that was the wrong thing to do. Part of me feels like by having stuff elsewhere its feeding into her abandonment issues, but for me, I'm just sick and tired of hauling it back and forth waiting for her to exploded and trash it all again.  I don't think she realizes how that affected me. 

I guess I've been down the rabbit hole so long I don't know what is appropriate, where the self love/selfish line is, and when I'm actually the one being a stubborn ass.  The self doubt and confusion is really getting to me.  I feel like this really is it, if I don't move back fully its over, if I move back and there is too many open wounds its over... .just a wonderful way to live.

[ozmatoz]

Update as of today, I've tried to spend some time with the family this week but its been nothing but ST or "Its over" talk.  In the last few days I've been more conscious of taking a bit of a harder line in trying to "take back" some of the control over what I do.  In other words when she tells me to leave a room I don't.  When she yells at me to "get out" of her house, I don't.  When she says she's not interested in spending time together I just tell her I intend to be at the house and spending time with the girls.  Nothing else has worked, I'm tired of being bossed around in my own home.  Call it my last stand I guess... .

Oh, and those new speakers I haven't set up yet? Apparently a return tag and pickup shipping has been arranged... .  I'm wondering if she's bluffing or if she's ready to ship me out too... .

I will say she keeps bringing up the fact that I haven't brought a bunch of stuff back from my parents house.  I may stop by on the way home tonight and grab a bunch of stuff and see if that makes any improvements... .

[Beacher]

Oh so sorry you are going through this. The game of ‘what are they going to be like today?’ is exhausting, especially with the holidays. Have you considered seeing someone to talk to, or have you tried counseling together? After our 3rd therapist I gave up.
It’s so hard with kids and living in limbo but you have to decide what is best for you, and ultimately the kids. If you are happy they will see that and accept whatever happens. I chose to leave, am having a hard time financially but god I am so much better now.

[ozmatoz]

Hey Beacher, thank you for the reply.  Yes it certainly is a hard time right now.  You hit the nail on the head "what are they going to be like today?"

MC has been a contentious point.  First we went, I held some stuff back (long story) then it became a trigger for her to even bring up MC again.  She'd completely rage about it.  I see a T and really think she needs some time with a T herself before we could even attempt MC with any success.  She doesn't seem to want to put any more work in.  But tomorrow could be different... .

I know if I didn't have kids the healthiest thing to do would be to part ways, it may still be whats best, but for their sake I don't want this to end in a complete blowout.

I'm sorry that you went through what you have been through and still struggling but happy to hear that you are better now.  I hope the new year brings you some peace and continued healing.

-Oz

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Glad you continued the thread, but sorry the saga continues.  Pretend these glasses have beer in them    because we oughtta have a beer.

Yes, I get it on the stereo equipment, both the expense, and the fact that it doesn't fit.  Also, the driveway, I was just talking to someone yesterday whose driveway is shaped so a plow is useless and he says it is way better with the snowblower!

Kudos on realizing you need to hold your head up high and not be bossed around in your own house.  Keep it up.  It's the only way to live.  Which brings me to this... .

I will say she keeps bringing up the fact that I haven't brought a bunch of stuff back from my parents house.  I may stop by on the way home tonight and grab a bunch of stuff and see if that makes any improvements... .

Brother Oz, do you see the appeasement happening there?  You are going to need to be 100% consistent with this having a spine thing.  Having one half the time is worse than not at all.  Move your stuff around as it suits you.  Our wives are absolute wizards at getting others, particularly us, to move things around to make them feel better.  By doing this, we prevent them from owning their own happiness, and we destroy ourselves.  In order to make things truly better, she would need to learn a whole new way of being.  It is possible, but will take a huge amount of motivation on her part, and lots of the right kind of help.  Yes, as you said, she will not make the changes necessary without therapy.  By appeasing her you are taking away her motivation.  It may seem like decreasing her near-term distress is the loving thing to do, but it is the opposite (did you know that one of the four pillars of DBT is "distress tolerance"?)  If you are determined to be able to say you did your best, caving is not the best thing.  Slowly ratcheting up the pressure, and not backing down, may give her the motivation to change.  W.r.t. facing her in court, as you know, you need to be emotionally ready for that possibility if you are going to be able to push back for positive change.  What you can control is consistently acting with integrity, first of all for yourself, for your kids, and for her.  Not backing down, letting the pressure for change build, is the way to do this.  Then she will do what she will do (I feel like I need to pay a royalty to formflier everytime I say that

WW 

[formflier]

I'll PM anyone the direct deposit info for royalty fees... .   


Please don't "remind" her of reasons that you do what you do... .or that she does what she does... ."reminding" is a close cousin to JADE.

So... .when she announces that all is fixed and there is no reason for (fill in the blank)...  "Oh... good... .I'll have to give that some thought... ."  pause... . "I'm getting some lemonade... .would you like some... "  (just move right along)

She will try to return to "no reason for (fill in blank)... .why haven't you moved your stuff back... etc etc...

Well... .stick with giving it thought and then let her know you can discuss it in day or two.  You are basically kicking the can down the road.  Stay neutral.

Having a spine is critical... .having a spine while remaining friendly... .nonchalant is very helpful.

FF

[formflier]

It sounds like she has a history of "one upping" you with gifts.  Right? 

Do you think you have much chance of changing that... .and is it really... .really a problem? 

"Ohhh my... .thanks Babe... .this means a lot to me"  Hug... smooch... move along.


The driveway is a bit more complicated... .sorta.  it will involve you walking away from "your responsibility".

Whacky example.

Let's say you plant wonderful green grass every spring.  Your wife keeps "helping" you water it and she insists on using the hose connected to roundup.  And kills a lot of grass.

Frustrating... .so say the least.  She won't listen. 
The only part in this you control is planting the grass.  "Accept" her answer (her actions) that she is going to continue helping and let her be responsible for the result.

If she insists on being involved with plowing decisions... .let her do it all.  Let her know you will respect her judgment.  In your mind don't think of respect as "reverence"... .think of it as something that can't be changed.

You will "respect" that she is an adult and will make up her own mind.  "Fighting" her about the plow is playing into her hand. 

So... enjoy coffee and let her and plow guy work out details.   

Note... .very likely I'm selling my backup plow truck in the next few weeks and getting totally out of the business.  It was only a side business at most.

FF

[ozmatoz]

The one upping with gifts has only been a recent thing and I believe it to be more of another manipulation tool.  Just last night she was telling me that I should have returned the speakers if I wanted the money, yet when I asked her how I was going to get the money for speakers she paid for she replied that if she wants me to contribute anything to the house or bills I need to get a court order.  She's been hoarding her paychecks since September under the guise that since most of the bills are in my name she's not responsible.  When I turn this on her and say thats fine, then you're not responsible for the equity in the house either... .that changes to a terse "I'm allowed half of what we own... ."

Round and round we go.  I have maintained some spine here and not retrieved much of my stuff other than what gets me through a few weeks and frankly I don't have a lot left. 

WW to your point she'll have to find whole new ways to find happiness, I don't believe she intends to do the work.  She is now "officially done" again.  There does not seem to be any further motivation in her to want to work things out between us.  I'm still painted black and because she doesn't see the "love" like our friend/spouses have for each other despite their troubles she feels that it is no longer here.  I believe I am heading into the "discard" territory of BPD.

She is mad that I can't accept that she wants to move on, yet I've been down this road so many times that I know if I agree and try to move on with my life she'll just turn things on its head again.  This causes me so much heartache as I try to move and put energy into a new life for myself only to have it ripped away.  I'm damaging friendships, relationships at work, family every time I "finally show up" only to disappear again.

FF I've walked away from the driveway issue but she keeps bringing it up to show me "I am incapable of changing, therefore she's done."  I also see your point of reasons being close to JADE, I will try to stay aware of that.  I often feel like I need to at least say something... .but in reality I need to learn to keep my mouth shut. (hard for me to do, I like to talk!).

I will say I am getting so frustrated with her "done" talk.  She asked me last night if in order for me to believe her that she's finally serious she needs to file divorce papers.  I backed off the convo and just said we need to stop being so toxic and just get some rest.

I guess it could be seen as a huge gamble, but I feel like I need to remind her that we've done this before, we've been down this road only to have her beg for things to come back and it just creates more pain.  I don't like giving ultimatums as I know they don't work with BPD but I've hit my limit.  I want to tell her, you either file for divorce or shut up and we find a way to fix this... .  How do you do that in a BPD friendly way?

[Cat Familiar]

I don't like giving ultimatums as I know they don't work with BPD but I've hit my limit.  I want to tell her, you either file for divorce or shut up and we find a way to fix this... .  How do you do that in a BPD friendly way?

Short answer. You don't.

My BPD mother harangued my father for fifty years, until he died. As a child, I heard plenty of talk about divorce and the arguing was nearly constant at times. Ultimately my dad withdrew into silence, into his own world, so he set her off as little as possible.

For so many of you who contemplate trying to keep the family intact "for the children", I'm not certain that this is always the best option. I was programmed to think of so many dysfunctional patterns as "normal" by seeing the drama day in and out. As a result, I didn't have good boundaries and I normalized some very abnormal behavior by my first husband (BPD/NPD/ASPD) just because I didn't have healthy role models to learn from.

[formflier]

For the driveway issue.

"I don't agree with your decision, it makes me sad."  (walk away)

perhaps alternate  with

"I'm offering to deal with the "snow guy" or I'll let you talk to him."

2.

Your question about "BPD friendly way"... .I agree there is not.  Honestly, if you want to be done, you do it.  Trying to push someone else to divorce or marry, rarely has good outcome. 

You take charge of your life.

Before you ever take any action to divorce or further separate, make you you have all the L stuff down pat.

I've got kinda a vibe from you that you need to work on being "nonchalant" about all this.  That's your work to do... .I realize you shouldn't have to, but it is what it is.

Hang in there.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Your question about "BPD friendly way"... .I agree there is not.  Honestly, if you want to be done, you do it.  Trying to push someone else to divorce or marry, rarely has good outcome.  

You take charge of your life.

Before you ever take any action to divorce or further separate, make you you have all the L stuff down pat.


Totally agree. Once I finally got clear that I was ending my first marriage, I knew I had to hold firm. He tried time and time to change my mind and was absolutely amazed that I wouldn't back down. (During alone times, I often listened to Tom Petty's "I won't back down" I didn't waver. I was absolutely sure.

He tried to make me feel guilty, feel insecure about my future, spread untrue stories about me. I just kept on my path. I figured if people believed the lies he was telling, then obviously they didn't know me and I certainly didn't need them in my life. And it seemed to work out that way. Lots of people came to me to tell me how he was on a downward spiral.

It's hard. It can be ugly. But if you know in your heart what you need to do and never waver, things change and you can make your life more to your liking. I'm not advocating for divorce, but I've applied some of these same principles in my current marriage and not wavering from what is important to you can ultimately bring about big changes for the better.

[Radcliff]

Cat Familiar, this is awesome:

I just kept on my path.

In your case, that was divorce.  In my case, it was separation and therapy for everyone to try to sort things out.  But in neither case did we ask permission.  I sure tried and tried to get my wife to buy into where I wanted to go, as everyone on the board slowly shook their heads   It was terrifying at first, but damn, it feels like we're going somewhere now!

Hey Oz,
Look what I found!

WW 

[ozmatoz]

Hey Oz,
Look what I found!

Thanks WW, thats the first smile I cracked all day!

Cat and FF, yes I know there is really no way to "force something" or really tell it like it is.  Perhaps I was just venting a bit, thank you for listening.

FF, yes I need to be more nonchalant as in, I need to chill out.  It is really hard, the times I disengage she ratchets up until she dysregulates.  I let her take control and I don't like it.  Yes at some point I will need to "force whatever action" I need.   Cat to your point I will need to stay on that path.

I think right now, my path is just not being "forced" out of my own home or not react to those threats.

If it pushes past that, well my path will change.  Big snow storm headed this way, I guess we'll see how her plow guy does! 

Pressed for time today, will check back in soon.

-Oz

[Radcliff]

It's raining here.  Temperatures will plummet to 52F tonight.  Brrr.

WW 

[formflier]

FF, yes I need to be more nonchalant as in, I need to chill out.  

Listen man... we've all been there and will likely be there again when we try to put our "button" away only to figure out our pwBPD has pick pocketed us... .and is pressing the button and having a wonderful time doing so.

Here is my challenge to ozmatoz... .for two weeks you are going to imagine she has a "FF interpreter" with her... .focus on what you are going to "hear".

her actual words... ."you suck, plow the driveway, give me money and buy me presents... .which you never do... .I can't believe I'm with someone so sucky"

turn on the FF interpreter

"There is a pink elephant in the front yard, bigfoot is in the freezer, Hillary won the election, and they use the TV to control us."

Full license to change the words to put a smile on your face.  Concentrate on that. 

Listen man... .it's blather... .we all know it.  So don't "listen" to it for details... .make up your own stories.  Get a smile, but not in a mocking way... .but a friendly way.

Speak back friendly.  Think long and hard about your finger and your shoulders.  Perhaps sing "head shoulders knees and toes" to yourself (again going for the smile)

At the end of the song it is very important that you use your shoulders and put away your finger.  Shrug in a friendly way... like "what should I do" and focus on not pointing the finger of blame.

I think if you focus on that, you will avoid blame and you will CHILL OUT!

Make it fun... .

Thoughts?

FF

[ozmatoz]

Thanks FF, I really have chuckled every time I read your post.  Just picturing my wife blabbing on about pink elephants and other nonsense has helped this past week to at least not make my blood boil when the texts start rolling in.  She uses her words and accusations to pull me into the triangle and it is very hard to ignore as the texts are a direct line into me and I feel like if I don't respond I get even more distracted at work because I'm still thinking about it.  More work to do there.

I do have another question I'd like to ask opinions on how to cope.  I'm finding that as I detach from the nonsense I also feel like I'm detaching more from the relationship.  The more I detach the more I have a clearer view of the relationship.  This is where I get both angry and feel terribly sad.  Angry that life just doesn't have to be like this, angry that she doesn't want to get any help, angry that I let myself put up with this.  Sad that this is now my life, sad that my uBPDw has gone through what she has.  Sad that I really think she believes I'm the only one that can save her.  Sad because I know I can't.  I feel pretty helpless and when she looks to me for answers I have none which just makes me feel worse.

viscous cycle.

[formflier]

The detachment... .

I was on improving for a long time... then moved to conflicted.  Perhaps "realistic" is a better name for the board.

Yep... I do get angry... .and yes many times I express that succinctly to my wife.  OBTW... when you tell a pwBPD they have broken your heart... .and then don't discuss it with them further or let them do the BPD thing... .it's sad and entertaining at the same time.

Dude... .seriously... .there are no right or wrong answers.  I tend to be a pretty independent guy... .and on lots of issues I'm the guy "swimming upstream" vice "going with the flow". 

I am firmly committed to improving me and my relationships (especially with my kids).  I do sometimes feel manipulative has h$$l by using my push pull knowledge to get what I want... .kinda when I want it.

For instance... .my wife and I had a really nice date night last week.  Spent almost $200 on dinner for two at a place I had been wanting to try for a while.  She was pissy the day before and the morning of... .that afternoon I poured on the romance and the pull signal. 

We had a wonderful... .wonderful date night.  We both got all fixed up... .the food was incredible.  I was prepared for it to go south the next day... and it did... I was pretty nonchalant about it... gave her some "push" and things were back to even keel in about 2 days.

So... .FF's big picture.  I have a lot going on in my life other than my marriage.  My wife is starting to realize that... .and is more often than not giving pull signals.  Just the slightest bit of "resistance" from me usually keeps here there.  Then when she wants to blather and accuse, more often than not I give a yawn... .

Sometimes I get hooked... .sometimes it matters more... .but that is happening less and less.

FF