of course i don’t know

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

i came to the realization that the most important thing for me to do right now is to step away from the question of whether i love him or not. my feeling was if i didn’t, on principle, i should end the relationship. immediately.

i see now that given the on/off nature of my seven year plus relationship i am stepping off the ride. he’s really only been back on for about a week and there is no reason to treat his current state as anything other than temporary. (he's taking medication now and changing... .)

i don’t have to ride that off/on ride. of course i don’t know i how i feel. why should i? and i can take my time with this question….as long as i am kind and supportive of him.

i decided i will just focus as much as i can on my own happiness with my life as it currently is and just let life unfold.

i will continue to imagine scenarios of being apart and together as i’ve been forced to do for so long given his mood swings and i will follow my own timetable with making my decision to stay or leave the relationship. it was just two weeks ago i was beginning to plan a move alone to latin america or asia because he wanted a divorce. again.

i had given myself til fall of this year as a point at which i had to either find a way to make this work or let it go. it works out nicely for me as i could get out before my birthday and the end of the year holiday season and enjoy that freely and fully if i am alone. even if we are together i am not spending those holidays with him if i can at all help it. he’s ruined too many holidays and i am going to have a nice holiday season. period. i sadly can’t remember one nice holiday we ever had in all these years.

if we stay together there is still a lot of time to see what a more stable version of our life together looks like.

[pearlsw]

i came to the realization that the most important thing for me to do right now is to step away from the question of whether i love him or not. my feeling was if i didn’t, on principle, i should end the relationship. immediately.

i see now that given the on/off nature of my seven year plus relationship i am stepping off the ride. he’s really only been back on for about a week and there is no reason to treat his current state as anything other than temporary. (he's taking medication now and changing... .)

i don’t have to ride that off/on ride. of course i don’t know i how i feel. why should i? and i can take my time with this question….as long as i am kind and supportive of him.

i decided i will just focus as much as i can on my own happiness with my life as it currently is and just let life unfold.

i will continue to imagine scenarios of being apart and together as i’ve been forced to do for so long given his mood swings and i will follow my own timetable with making my decision to stay or leave the relationship. it was just two weeks ago i was beginning to plan a move alone to latin america or asia because he wanted a divorce. again.

i had given myself til fall of this year as a point at which i had to either find a way to make this work or let it go. it works out nicely for me as i could get out before my birthday and the end of the year holiday season and enjoy that freely and fully if i am alone. even if we are together i am not spending those holidays with him if i can at all help it. he’s ruined too many holidays and i am going to have a nice holiday season. period. i sadly can’t remember one nice holiday we ever had in all these years.

if we stay together there is still a lot of time to see what a more stable version of our life together looks like.

[Cat Familiar]

Even more than the question of if you love him or not, how about thinking whether or not the life you've experienced with him, up until now is something you want to repeat in future years?

So much hinges on his wellness, and if that will make a major change in his behaviors and attitudes.

You sound like such a kind tolerant person and I think that wonderful quality bites you in the azz. It's one thing to care for someone who has fallen apart, but who has lots of redeeming qualities. It's another thing to be a target of abuse.

I have followed your story somewhat and I don't have all the particulars, but I sure don't remember hearing much about him that would fall in the "redeeming qualities" column.

[formflier]

Pearlsw,

My biggest concern with this entire story is that you don't seem to be able to get time and space for YOU.

Somehow... "clearning your head"... ."gaining space"... .etc etc will help you get perspective.

Can you clarify what the issues are that prevent you from getting alone/away time?

FF

[pearlsw]

You sound like such a kind tolerant person and I think that wonderful quality bites you in the azz.

this gave me a nice laugh!

i am working on answers to the other questions... .thank you so much for asking! 

it might be a few days or a week until i can reply... .time is limited.

thank you so much though! you are so helpful!

[pearlsw]

Pearlsw,

My biggest concern with this entire story is that you don't seem to be able to get time and space for YOU.

Somehow... "clearning your head"... ."gaining space"... .etc etc will help you get perspective.

Can you clarify what the issues are that prevent you from getting alone/away time?

FF

hi FF, thanks!

i live in a foreign country and that makes travel complicated and expensive. for now my focus is him being stable. i am watching and waiting to see what the next step after that is and when to take it. he wants the relationship "on" he says. i am in a holding pattern. in my heart it is neither off or on. it just is for now.

i have been through breakups before and find them terribly, terribly painful. so i want to be sure i'm at a good point when/if this ends. part of the problem, of the many problems, is i have, when i really look at, been wrestling, so to speak, for "control" of the breakup. my desire was always to guide us towards a healthy outcome, together or apart... .i was exceptionally determined and persistent on this point... .he was grateful at times, many times, that i saved it while he was not thinking clearly (his words). i think deep down it is not what he wants. the main issue now is, i overextended myself emotionally on this... .i'm wiped out. i am a bit dead inside. numb. i am not stepping up anymore to keep it all going... .but it is extremely complicated to sort out the range of options. honestly, there are too many options for a future to choose from... .

[formflier]

 
Why do you have to travel to get time for yourself? 

Can you get a couple hours a day or perhaps a night away by travelling 30 minutes?


Can I flip this around?  If you are not watching his progress (watching and waiting)... .what else could you be doing for you?

FF

[pearlsw]

i am not entirely closed off to him… i am a bit numb, but i noticed the times i’ve cried lately are when: 1) he told me that he’d found out that a house he owns in a war torn country is still standing and has retained some of its value. he was talking about going there to facilitate the sale of it. i lost it when it heard this. “no, no! don’t go!” i said to him as the tears flowed. he could be imprisoned if he goes…or die…or who knows what…so…that broke my heart right open to hear that.

the other time i cried was when he first told me, a day after visiting with a psychiatrist, that he had decided to continue taking his medication after all. the day before he said he would stop. i expected him to do a lot of back and forth on this, but it was all just too much for me…after so much back and forth…him doing this on so many things, sometimes intentionally to hurt me i suppose…sigh…when he came to me, after ignoring me for a bit and said he would take it and that he was taking it because of me…i cried again.

i’m not one to cry much so this is a big deal for me. i wasn’t sobbing, my eyes were just leaking a bit.  

the other times i’ve cried lately though are over lost loves. (i recall two guys who would have been much better partners in all likelihood and whose love lives also took turns for the worse.) in the wee hours of the night, when i wake up and have some time alone with my thoughts…i start to drift back over the years…and my whole love life takes on a new cast. but in the light of day i am at peace and i am okay and have very little in the way of regret in life. i had a friend once who told me that she “never goes backward, only forwards in life.” i remind myself of her strength and dignity when she told me that and i try to channel some of that for myself…and just keep going forward.

update: i guess i am not made of stone! when i got back to where we live after work today the door was locked which was unusual and i was instantly afraid he might have killed himself. i rang the bell many times and he did not answer right away. i was surprised that was my first thought, and then came the tears, and there it was. i really don’t want him to suffer like this. i really want for him to get better. that’s all i know for sure.

[DaddyBear77]

the question of whether i love him or not. my feeling was if i didn’t, on principle, i should end the relationship. immediately.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 18 years, it's that "Love" has at least  7.6 billion definitions (projected, as of December 2017).

The other thing I've learned is that our feelings change, constantly. It's part of the human condition.

If your question is, "do I feel love?" - ask yourself that question 50 times and you'll get 50 different answers. Did you "feel love" when he did what he did over the Christmas holiday? Did you "feel love" when he threatened suicide? Did you "feel love" when he was staying with his lawyer friend? The answer is probably really complicated. Maybe yes and no at the same time. That's the way feelings work.

If your question is, "is this a person that I love?" - consider the similar question "do I consider this person to be family?" or "is this a person I want in my life?" Many people would consider these questions similar, but the point is, this definition of "love" has to do with indirect feelings of love.

When you say you should end the relationship immediately on principle if you don't love him, what I hear you saying is that a relationship isn't a relationship without love. If this is going to be such a strict benchmark, it seems to me that you should have a pretty solid definition of what "love" is before you end things on account of it's absence.

[Cat Familiar]

i am not entirely closed off to him… i am a bit numb, but i noticed the times i’ve cried lately are when: 1) he told me that he’d found out that a house he owns in a war torn country is still standing and has retained some of its value. he was talking about going there to facilitate the sale of it. i lost it when it heard this. “no, no! don’t go!” i said to him as the tears flowed. he could be imprisoned if he goes…or die…or who knows what…so…that broke my heart right open to hear that.

the other time i cried was when he first told me, a day after visiting with a psychiatrist, that he had decided to continue taking his medication after all. the day before he said he would stop. i expected him to do a lot of back and forth on this, but it was all just too much for me…after so much back and forth…him doing this on so many things, sometimes intentionally to hurt me i suppose…sigh…when he came to me, after ignoring me for a bit and said he would take it and that he was taking it because of me…i cried again.

I agree with DaddyBear about all the different definitions of love. In reading what you've written, Pearl, I'm going to try and unpack this.

Yes, your feelings are vulnerable to the idea of him being injured, killed, imprisoned, or suicidal. You're also moved by the thought that he would want to take medication and get better because of you.

Of course these feelings are there, but wouldn't they also be there if he was merely a friend you cared about? Even someone that you knew very incidentally might inspire these thoughts and feelings since you seem to be a very caring person.

What I'm not hearing in your accounts is any feelings of romantic love. The love you seem to feel for him appears to be more of a friendship love, philia, not eros.

[formflier]

What I'm not hearing in your accounts is any feelings of romantic love. The love you seem to feel for him appears to be more of a friendship love, philia, not eros.

I think this would be a productive thought to work through... .

FF

[pearlsw]

If there's one thing I've learned in my 18 years, it's that "Love" has at least  7.6 billion definitions (projected, as of December 2017).

The other thing I've learned is that our feelings change, constantly. It's part of the human condition.

When you say you should end the relationship immediately on principle if you don't love him, what I hear you saying is that a relationship isn't a relationship without love. If this is going to be such a strict benchmark, it seems to me that you should have a pretty solid definition of what "love" is before you end things on account of it's absence.

that made me smile. i guess i am going with my old, outdated definitions that i’ve been carrying around and remolding since the 70’s.

i agree, feelings change constantly. what i’m referring to, having ended previous long-term relationships, is that moment when i know, for myself, that i’ve done all i can and i can’t do for that relationship anymore. when there is no longer enough love to sustain one’s efforts in being with a particular person. before i get to that point i go through a range of efforts to repair, save, reexamine, and then ultimately call it. and when i call it, it ends, and i don’t go back. i know what breakups feel like for me. what the thoughts involved are.

the hard part with this relationship is it simply doesn’t feel like any other relationship i’ve ever had and all the things i thought i knew about relationships have been turned upside down and damaged to one degree or another. it’s confusing as f$%#. so, i feel off balance, uncertain, and operating by my principles and beliefs and understanding of the world feels really, really hard because the person i am involved with operates within a whole other set of definitions and really a whole other reality. i’ve never experienced anything like that. at times it feels like he’s broken reality for me, which is huge. how do you break reality? but he has, over and over. and then you put all that on another continent and add in a legal contract and i’ve got layers of complication…

i am impressed you remember so much of my story. that is so kind of you and also, i must admit, really unnerving to read and be reminded by another voice, outside the one in my head, what i’ve endured these last months. wow. yikes. i did not have a chance to think or feel for a lot of that time…i was stuck reacting to off the scale crises…and at some point in january i realized i was done going to the mat to keep this thing going as i have previously. i had no more patience for the drama and crisis lifestyle he lives and tries to suck me into. but nevertheless i live in his world. his cultural world, the subcultures within the larger dominant ones, everything. even under the best of circumstances i am going to be a bit isolated here. anyway, after the ever increasing crises i didn’t feel like going down with the ship anymore. things i was willing to say and do  previously i was no longer willing to say or do. sigh. i gave so much of myself to have it repeatedly thrown back at me. i don’t feel less in any way, i still like me a lot, but i am tired of the rejection that off/on represents and i am working on making it end. it will end. i will not be in an off/on relationship. i’ve given it enough time. it has to be on or off once and for all. i am not as interested in “on” anymore as i was last year.

i like these questions….do i consider this person family? i did. i made a heartfelt effort to bring him to my family last year and he took that, and in the long run, found a way to weaponize that kindness against me. that was a huge red line for me - messing with my family in any way. it’s one thing to come after me, but it was a whole other to mess with them and he will have to live with his consequences for that error on his part. it took months for this play out and he now sees the price he will pay for it is even higher than anything he got out of damaging/hurting me…he damaged himself ultimately with this i mean. oh, i don’t know that i can explain it succinctly so i will leave that there for now. um. sigh.

oh, i do know what love is and isn’t for me. when i feel it and when i don’t. i have given him a lot of love. thankfully he is really the only person i’ve ever encountered who damaged love in this way, and who threw it all back at me. i know this is not the best that love can be because i’ve had other life experiences. geez, he even tried to damage all my memories of past loves too when i think about it. he is a very destructive force when he sets his mind to it.

anyway, i care about him. i am sad for him that he does not know how great love can be. i do. i have given and received a lot of love in life - enough to carry me to the end of my life with contentment. that is how i know i can live without another romantic relationship. i have had a generous portion of love from family, friends, and lovers. despite all the damage he’s done in my life i would still be a loving person, but i don’t have to be in a romantic relationship to have love in my life.

what i am struggling with is do i owe him time to make things better? he wants to make things better. i am just neutral about it for now.

[DaddyBear77]

what i am struggling with is do i owe him time to make things better? he wants to make things better. i am just neutral about it for now.

You've already given him quite a bit of time, haven't you? I think if it's a simple matter of "what you owe him" you can safely say you've paid him what he's owed, maybe? Yes? No?

Maybe you're asking, "Will he really change this time?" - so the question to ask yourself is, what changes am I looking for? What are the specific things that you, pearlsw, need to see in order to consider this "livable." Then, consider how long and under what circumstances you're willing to wait for those changes to take effect. Consider there will be set backs - it won't be a linear path. Hence, the timeline. If he slips back and then never moves forward again, you need some sort of backstop (which I think you have, you've stated that this year is your year).

These are all questions and thoughts I've had myself, by the way. I don't have all the answers, not by a long shot. But I think they're helpful and useful. None of us really want to be stuck in limbo forever, do we?

 

[pearlsw]

You've already given him quite a bit of time, haven't you? I think if it's a simple matter of "what you owe him" you can safely say you've paid him what he's owed, maybe? Yes? No?

These are all questions and thoughts I've had myself, by the way. I don't have all the answers, not by a long shot. But I think they're helpful and useful. None of us really want to be stuck in limbo forever, do we?

 

there are certain things that happened before the start of the relationship that led me to give my h time and consideration in terms of getting our relationship in focus, there are things that happened at the five year point that led me/us to give us more time, and there are things now that i also believe afford him a certain amount of time to get it together. namely, he's just started taking medication and seeing a doctor... .so, i'd like to give him time. that's my notion of love & fairness.

[pearlsw]

follow up: do i love my husband? yes. does that mean i want to spend my life with him? not necessarily, no. has he damaged my love for him? yes, a lot. perhaps he's gone too far. i think he deserves some time to recover and make changes. how much? not sure, but not beyond this year. 

[formflier]

  has he damaged my love for him? yes, a lot. perhaps he's gone too far. 

Pearlsw,

This jumped out at me.  As I reflect on this thought... .and what I see as your number 1 priority (according to FF)... .which is not enough time for Pearlsw to care for Pearlsw... .I have a couple thoughts I'd like to share with you.

I don't dispute that he has damaged your love for him... .I'm sure it was more horrible that you can ever describe here... for that... I'm so sorry... .  

I detect a hint of hope or "plan" in your post that "he will get better and make things right between us"... .so "I should give him a chance... ." (and I think you should)

Here is the thought for you... .

It appears to me that your "plan" involves handing responsibility to him to "care for" your feelings... your damaged love... .sort of a "you broke it... you fix it kinda thing"

I would suggest that is NOT a good plan... .because depending on a disordered person to fix an emotional issue they caused... .well... .that's just not wise and I think unlikely to happen.  (causing you more pain)

I would be much less worried about you if... .

"my love for my husband has been damaged.  I'm going to take time and space from this relationship to care for my love for him and see what I can do to improve this... "

What are your thoughts on what you have just read?

Is it possible to something like this?

FF

[pearlsw]

Pearlsw,

This jumped out at me.  As I reflect on this thought... .and what I see as your number 1 priority (according to FF)... .which is not enough time for Pearlsw to care for Pearlsw... .I have a couple thoughts I'd like to share with you.

I don't dispute that he has damaged your love for him... .I'm sure it was more horrible that you can ever describe here... for that... I'm so sorry... .  

I detect a hint of hope or "plan" in your post that "he will get better and make things right between us"... .so "I should give him a chance... ." (and I think you should)

Here is the thought for you... .

It appears to me that your "plan" involves handing responsibility to him to "care for" your feelings... your damaged love... .sort of a "you broke it... you fix it kinda thing"

FF

hey FF, thanks for the kind words. actually, nope that is not my plan. i am just tired of turmoil. i am waiting and watching as his meds take effect. i am under no illusion the meds will magically make him easier to get along with or make me love him more, etc. i just want to see who he is with them. after that, if we go on, we must seriously tackle our communication problems. at times he shows a lot of interest in this. it can be buoying. at other times i feel a bit... .like he is just too much for me... .too emotional, too difficult, etc. i am not sure. but i do know we've both been through a lot and we deserve a fair chance to see what could be possible. it might not be enough. in no way do i put my happiness in his hands. my happiness is my responsibility in life - completely. thanks again.