Hell living apart in the same house

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

When I moved back into the family home two years ago after a three year separation my romantic fantasy was that BPDh would have recovered, go into therapy as I had made a condition of moving back, and we would be a happy family again.

I felt it wouod be better for our kids, who are aged 14 and 16 now, than to stay apart. They were spending 3 days a week with him and 4 with me, but he had never accepted the breakup and was not emotionally stable enough to even really be a strong stable Dad to them over those 3 days. And yes I did have the notion that the wonderful side of him would prevail and I would be cherished and looked after too, as he had always claimed that he still loved me was desperate about my having left and would do anything to have a second chance. Our relationship has lasted 18 years in total now. I left my own country to move here to be with him, it was a total investment of my life and I couldnt give it up easily depsite a very conflicted tortuos relationship. While we were apart he did have therapy and was diagnosed BPD. I wont give up the idea that he can be "fixed" and it will all be OK.

I moved back and set up home in the basement whch has its own kitchen so I could be quite independent, and I wanted to take it slow even before deciding to sleep together again. He did give me a few months but then started being impatient that I should move back upstairs, and when I hesitated he started again with erratic behaviour, tantrums etc which made me withdraw back... .

He did do therapy for the first few months but then gave it up and says he doesnt intend to go back. He is on medication but wont talk about it, when I tried to ask him about what he was taking he invented the name of a drug rather than tell me the truth.

He has reverted to saying I am ill, he has told both our kids to their face they are ill, he says I should leave again as its his house. He wont agree to have family meals together as "if we are not sharing a bed why should we eat at the same table". So I mostly cook and the kids eat downstairs with me. My kids dont invite friends home as they are embarrassed and are worried about how he will behave.

We are living in a limbo situation. I still try and create happy family moments, I invited him on holiday to New Zealand, I invited him to my family Christmas in England, he refuses at first then comes sulkily and for the most part we get on OK with the occasional tantrum and raging, I cry, he tells me to go back downstairs and not to show my face, we dont speak for a few days, then we go back to peaceful co-existence.

We went out for the day together recently, which I thought would be good for us, but in the first hour of driving up the motorway he started raging and telling me I am ill and I cried, it ended up back hom with a scuffle at the front door, he wouldnt let me in told me to use the entrance in the basement, then he raged in front of our son making him cry.

So part of me wants to be able to fix him and I believe using the tools here it should be possible to have a better co-existence and even return to a romantic relationship and he be calmer in himself and be a more stable Dad to the kids. But he wants it now or nothing.

So the part of me feels it is hopeless and I am just perpetuating the cycle myself because of too much FOG and not being able to break mentally free or set him free because I suppose he wont be able to cope on his own. I do have to choose one way or the other and communicate that to him.

[Cmjo]

When I moved back into the family home two years ago after a three year separation my romantic fantasy was that BPDh would have recovered, go into therapy as I had made a condition of moving back, and we would be a happy family again.

I felt it wouod be better for our kids, who are aged 14 and 16 now, than to stay apart. They were spending 3 days a week with him and 4 with me, but he had never accepted the breakup and was not emotionally stable enough to even really be a strong stable Dad to them over those 3 days. And yes I did have the notion that the wonderful side of him would prevail and I would be cherished and looked after too, as he had always claimed that he still loved me was desperate about my having left and would do anything to have a second chance. Our relationship has lasted 18 years in total now. I left my own country to move here to be with him, it was a total investment of my life and I couldnt give it up easily depsite a very conflicted tortuos relationship. While we were apart he did have therapy and was diagnosed BPD. I wont give up the idea that he can be "fixed" and it will all be OK.

I moved back and set up home in the basement whch has its own kitchen so I could be quite independent, and I wanted to take it slow even before deciding to sleep together again. He did give me a few months but then started being impatient that I should move back upstairs, and when I hesitated he started again with erratic behaviour, tantrums etc which made me withdraw back... .

He did do therapy for the first few months but then gave it up and says he doesnt intend to go back. He is on medication but wont talk about it, when I tried to ask him about what he was taking he invented the name of a drug rather than tell me the truth.

He has reverted to saying I am ill, he has told both our kids to their face they are ill, he says I should leave again as its his house. He wont agree to have family meals together as "if we are not sharing a bed why should we eat at the same table". So I mostly cook and the kids eat downstairs with me. My kids dont invite friends home as they are embarrassed and are worried about how he will behave.

We are living in a limbo situation. I still try and create happy family moments, I invited him on holiday to New Zealand, I invited him to my family Christmas in England, he refuses at first then comes sulkily and for the most part we get on OK with the occasional tantrum and raging, I cry, he tells me to go back downstairs and not to show my face, we dont speak for a few days, then we go back to peaceful co-existence.

We went out for the day together recently, which I thought would be good for us, but in the first hour of driving up the motorway he started raging and telling me I am ill and I cried, it ended up back hom with a scuffle at the front door, he wouldnt let me in told me to use the entrance in the basement, then he raged in front of our son making him cry.

So part of me wants to be able to fix him and I believe using the tools here it should be possible to have a better co-existence and even return to a romantic relationship and he be calmer in himself and be a more stable Dad to the kids. But he wants it now or nothing.

So the part of me feels it is hopeless and I am just perpetuating the cycle myself because of too much FOG and not being able to break mentally free or set him free because I suppose he wont be able to cope on his own. I do have to choose one way or the other and communicate that to him.

[pearlsw]

Hi Cmjo,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post! I can explain how it means to me, even after so many months on this site, to read stories where I can hear echoes of my own experiences. So, thank you, this helped me feel not so alone today.

I see you have a number of posts here already, I jumped in quickly to reply as my time is short today but I get the sense you are already using some of the tools here. I hope others may have more time to practice/review the tools with you because it really sounds like some adjustments could make a difference - or at least for you it would be worth a try.

You might want to look up the posts of Tattered Heart. She should really be up on our success stories board above because she is a great model for using the tools, making adjustments and manages to see some good results. She has her ups and downs and disappointments, but you will also find a lot of inspiration in her journey.

So he wants the romance back now - all or nothing, totally on his timetable? My "h" tends to push (hard) for all things to be on his timetable and how he wants it. He can create a lot of pressure, so much he almost convinces me there are no other options or what I feel is irrelevant or non-existent even. Where are you at in terms of intimacy with him? Could some amount help pave the way for healing and connection or is it too hard to get close with him? My "h" was so difficult at times I did not want him near either... .In time I learned an adjustment on this and I just let him near as long as he is calm. I use this for after his big meltdowns. He knows he is safe with me. (This is just us though. But giving him some connection has helped.)

wishing you peace! ~ pearl.

p.s. please keep posting! it sounds like you have so much to offer the community and we could give to you as well! offering each other support - just feeling heard can make such a big difference in each other's lives. 

[Cmjo]

Thanks to you as well for your supportive reply to me!

Intimacy is a key problem. We did start getting intimate and had sex several times in the first year I was back. But for the whole of the second year I have not wanted to continue this. Although we shared a bed while on holidays I kept to my side and after brushing him off gently he got the message. So for one year we have been solely platonic.

I am attracted to him physically but because of the hurtful thngs he has said and done I dont want to get intimate again because often the next day he will rage again and I will be hurt.

So i have set a boundary saying I will not get back into a romantic relationship unless he acknowledges his behaviour is often hurtful to me and the children and commits to getting treatment. At least I have said that a few times but he totally ignores me. If I write to him he doesnt reply. If I tell him he might start raging so not sure even if he has heard me. He has said several times he doesnt want to go back to treatment. But he thnks I need help or we need to go to counselling together.

Counselling together failed in the past because it turns into a you said that no I didnt battle. Or if I describe his bad behaviour he tells the therapist I am exaggerating or it is a distortion of reality.

I do refuse to give him any affection or touch him. When he is calm he does ask for this, when I gave him only a breif hug recently and had to leave to go to my yoga class he then raged for days afterwards. So I do see this would calm him down. And affection would be good for me too as I am feeling very lonely and sad right now. But then he would start wanting to take it further and I dont know if I want to.

It comes back to the key of him acknowledging the problem and getting help.

[BeagleGirl]

Cmjo,
    First of all, I want to tell you that your perseverance in loving your husband and choosing what you feel is best for your children ahead of your comfort is amazing to me.
    It sounds to me like you're in a place where thoughts (and maybe even fantasies of leaving are present, but your main focus is "How do I stay?"  Would you say that's accurate?
    Operating from that assumption, I am wondering if a certain variation on marriage counseling would be helpful.  {As an aside, I eventually stopped marriage counseling at the advice of our marriage counselor.  H had started a pattern of diligently taking notes and agreeing with me and our counselor during the session then ripping me to shreds on the drive home.}  What if the primary purpose of the counseling was a format of accountability?  One example would be to develop/lay out the ground rules of intimacy and consequences for deviating from them with a third party guide/witness present.  That third party could then serve as an accountability person, reinforcing the guidelines and supporting implementation of consequences.  I'm wondering if a narrowed scope and focus on concrete behaviors might be more manageable than full blown marriage counseling.
    Another aside, one of my light bulb moments over the past year was that I was not really wanting a change in behavior from my dBPDstbxh.  I wanted a change in his core values.  For years I had been playing whack-a-mole with the behaviors that were most hurtful.  Even when I did get compliance with those behaviors, I was left disappointed because there was a new hurtful behavior, or I felt like I was constantly policing to make sure the old behavior didn't pop up.  That realization helped me to understand that one of the things dBPDstbxh would "throw" at me frequently was actually true - "Nothing I do will be enough for you".  It wasn't about what he did or didn't do.  It was about the beliefs, values, and identity that the behaviors were rooted in and sprang out of.  No amount of pruning will get a pear out of a lemon tree. 
BeagleGirl

[Radcliff]

Hello Cmjo,

I am so sorry to hear of the burdens you are carrying.  I can relate to being in a long tortuous relationship, in a home full of tension and BPD behaviors while raising teenagers.  Your sacrifices have been immense, and I hope that you can find your way to a more peaceful time.

You have one child pretty close to leaving home, and the second not far behind.  I am sure you are thinking about how you can most realistically shape their last years with you for the better.  Can you tell us a little about them?  How is it that they didn't accept the separation?  Are they happier with the current arrangement than with you living separately?

WW

[formflier]

I do refuse to give him any affection or touch him. When he is calm he does ask for this, when I gave him only a breif hug recently and had to leave to go to my yoga class he then raged for days afterwards.  

It comes back to the key of him acknowledging the problem and getting help.

Listen... .uggh, this existence seems very controlling and I'm not sure the "punishment" fits the "crime" as far as boundary enforcement goes.

Note:  Understand, I'm not suggesting you don't get to decide what you do with your body, it's your choice.  I am suggesting your choices (as do his) have a logical and natural set of consequences.  Those are being experienced by both of you.

He is (blank) and that hurts... .so  I'm going to be (blank) to you... .now that you experience my same pain the pain will continue until you relent.  A battle of wills.  Ugggg

Turning sex on and off is very triggering and confusing for regular people, there is zero chance a PD will understand it.  

So... what to do?

Boundary enforcement should be related.  

Your mouth is nasty... .my ears leave.   Ears come back, mouth is nice... .ears stay.  People with PDs get this.

You sneak in my phone and do silly things... .my phone gets locked.  A person with a PD will rage... and eventually the fire will burn out.  They will get this.

Now... to sex.  If during sex a person with a PD were to do something you have said no to.  You stop it.  They will get that.

Linking sex to "acknowledging bad behavior"... .a PD is going to feel controlled.


FF

[BeagleGirl]

Linking sex to "acknowledging bad behavior"... .a PD is going to feel controlled.

My experience bears out what FF says above.  When I made physical intimacy conditional upon emotional intimacy dBPDstbxh felt controlled. 

On the flip side, when dBPDstbxh expected (and received) physical intimacy regardless of his behavior and willingness to engage in emotional intimacy, I felt used.

There are times when the stalemate can be broken by one or the other party giving freely of the commodity they hold (emotional intimacy or physical intimacy) consistently and over a period of time long enough to rebuild trust from the other party and "refill the love tank" of the other.  I've heard of instances where this has resulted in the reciprocation that the giver wanted... .and they all lived happily ever after. 

Sorry for that last bit of sarcasm.  I do know the power of sacrificial giving and how it often results in blessings all around.  I have a very close friend who is currently living that out with her husband.  She took the step of consistently inviting and engaging in physical intimacy with her husband (who had been quite a jerk to her consistently for several years) and he started treating her more kindly, wanting to spend more time with her, and engaging in emotional intimacy.  It does happen, and I believe it's generally the right (and wise) thing to be the first to cross the neutral zone when you've both dug into your trenches.

BUT

I also have direct experience of a relationship where I genuinely did this and it did not have the happy ending.  Eventually hope dies when your husband consistently takes all you have to give then goes about his day neglecting you and your children.  When your husband leaves your bed to squander money and time on things that are important to him but do nothing to support you or the family he is supposed to share responsibility for, you start to feel like a prostitute.  Worse - a prostitute who is not even paid for her services.  When your husband feels so entitled to the physical intimacy that you have been consistently giving that he will not hear your "not right now" on the odd occasion when you can't seem to get yourself in the mindset to give again and uses FOG on you until you give your body to him - it can be an experience approaching that of assault.

I hope that you are able to find the tools to turn your situation around into something that is mutually beneficial for you and your husband.  I probably am not the best person to give advice in that area - at least not at this point in time - but I can give some understanding and empathy for what you are experiencing right now.  I've been there, and I know the hell it can be.  You're in my thoughts and prayers.
BeagleGirl

[formflier]

BG,

Can I be so bold as to suggest you figured out this was not about sex, but about the relationship?  Once you had that realization you moved to erect more appropriate boundaries.

"I will not have sex unless emotionally intimate"  (doesn't seem to fit)

"I will not be in a relationship without emotional intimacy"  (seems to fit to me)  Frankly it also seems more "fair" to the other person.  Keeping another person around that won't (or can't) be in the relationship you need, but torturing them by showing them what they want (really badly), doesn't seem like a recipe for success.  it seems like trench warfare.

I think this fits... but I'll hush and wait for BG to reply.

FF

[Cmjo]

i dont think Im being controlling and withholding sex as a punishment.

Its more than a year since we were last intimate, I have withdrawn completely because I cant stand the raging and verbal abuse. I cant just forget it and be detached and have sex. So its not on and off, its never and we live on separate floors.

I agree one of us daring to to break the chain and giving more could help. That could be me holding his hand for example. I could try, he would be delighted and loving. But he could flip again any time. Worse is when he flips with the children, splitting them with me. It makes me feel sick to the stomach, and I dont want to go near him. My trust is so eroded.

I have told him that to get close again he would have to go into therapy. But he is determined not to. He is waiting for me to just give uo asking. I feel safe that I wont have to be intimate as he wont get help. Maybe both comfortable living in our shells? I believe my own fear of intimacy is why I am in this codependent relationship in the first place!

[formflier]

So, perhaps I have a better picture now. 

How long will this stalemate continue?  Does it work for you? 

When you imagine what your life and and relationships will look like this summer (let's say July) what do you imagine? 

FF

[Cmjo]

It is stalemate.

Stalemate for me because we dont communicate in the same way, so cant have a conversation where we agree to take any new steps to resolve things, unless I agree to give him intimacy. Only on that condition he would say he might be able to be better behaved. So round in circles.

I cant see a way out. Normally after a while I will just relent and be friendly and that might go on for a few days until there will be an outburst again. The stalemate is just bearable, in comparison to 5 years ago it is easier as the living conditions are calmer as we avoid contact and therefore confrontation.

By July I can only see us in the same situation. I am not looking for another relationship but perhaos I should be.

I am just putting up with it, the kids are teenagers and they need a lot of attention. I tend to look after them 95% now. They come to me for everything as they dont know how he is going to behave, he can be a kind Dad or a nasty and belittling Dad.

Another big grudge I have is after moving back, despite things not having worked better as we had hoped, I wanted the move to also make life more pleasant for the kids. I had hoped we would have family meals together. But he refuses to eat meals with us now, saying if we dont sleep together we cant eat together. I hate that behaviour its childish. I want to put the kids first. But he wants to be put first. The kids just put up with it as long as they eat, I think it makes life easier that we dont have to put up with hum being moody at the table. But it also puts me under so much pressure, I run a business and commute and am at home less. He works shifts and is around much more, so its really annoying that I come home late and have to cook when he is doing his own thing, I feel he is deliberately making me suffer, but perhaps he is not doing it conciously?

[formflier]

  I had hoped we would have family meals together. But he refuses to eat meals with us now, saying if we dont sleep together we cant eat together. I hate that behaviour its childish.

  I feel he is deliberately making me suffer, but perhaps he is not doing it conciously?

How would you rather him handle the dinner thing?  What type of behavior would lead you to believe he is not being childish.

FF

[Panda39]

Hi Cmjo,

I identify with a lot of what you describe.  I'm on these boards because my SO has an uBPDxw but I have my own past.

I was in a codependent marriage with an alcoholic for close to 20 years.  I completely identify with not wanting to sleep with someone you can't trust.  Because besides physical pleasure isn't making love about trust and intimacy?  I stopped sleeping with my ex because there was no trust and I just couldn't make love to a person I didn't trust, even though a consequence of that might have felt like a punishment to my ex that was absolutely not the case, it was about my own feelings.

I also was in a household where I felt like I was the mother of 2 children (my son and my ex) and that I was doing all of the work.

I also believed it was better for my son (mostly financially) if I stayed in my marriage.  I believed that I could protect him from his father's worst behaviors.  Which of course I really couldn't, he was in the house he saw the ugly truth that his dad was and alcoholic and his mom was becoming depressed. 

What was my part in the co-dependent dance?  What was I getting out of this?  I put up with it for financial stability... .I got my husbands income combined with mine to provide the "things" I thought my son needed.  But what was really at the heart of it was a boost to my self-esteem.  I was the sober adult in the family, I did everything right, I was better than my ex, his failures made me feel superior.

I may be wrong or projecting my experience on to yours but what I'm hearing in your story is a lot of Codependency.  This is beyond all the day to day nit picky things like him not eating dinner with the family (he's just pushing your buttons here). 

Something to think about is what are you getting out of this situation? Understanding that can be helpful in clarifying your situation.  My motivations were not healthy, my marriage wasn't healthy, I wasn't really protecting my son from anything.  I chose to leave.

I am not suggesting you leave or stay but instead of looking just at your husband's behaviors, look inward too.

There is a book that you might want to check out that I found helpful when looking at myself and my marriage... .

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie

Take Care,
Panda39

[Cmjo]

"I was the sober adult in the family, I did everything right, I was better than my ex, his failures made me feel superior."

Yes perhaps that is how I am behaving. i want so much to be the good one. I am convinced I am right and that one day he will understand I am right. But no, he screams at me that I am useless I know nothing I am sick and mentally ill so much that Instart questioning if I am right... .! Panda your experience sounds similar. I agree there is nothing healthy in this relationship and long to be in a better place.

[empath]

As I've sort of lived apart in the same house for 2 years now, one of the things that I had to work through was my own expectations of my husband - expectations that are normal ones in a relationship, but I had to come to the realization and acceptance that mine was not a normal relationship. It was driving me crazy because I would hope that my husband would participate in a normal way, and I would get upset when he wasn't. Because my husband isn't a reliable parent, I mostly live as if I'm a single parent and the one who is responsible for my daughter. That brings her stability and keeps me from unrealistic expectations and the resulting frustration when he isn't reliable.

One of the books that helped me with my own process is "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist".