Why can’t I see the reality that is staring me in the face?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Oz,

A couple of things resonated with me... .

You make a good point -- we not thinking of the past to wallow in it, we're actually doing the opposite -- looking at the problems of the past in order to avoid them.

I also can relate to paying attention to how your body feels.  I had been rationalizing things with my mind for years, more often than not determining that she was right or I needed to work harder.  My brain often did not serve me well.  I totally lost touch with my gut.  I started paying attention to my body and it was screaming at me.

WW

[Radcliff]

Oz,

A couple of things resonated with me... .

You make a good point -- we not thinking of the past to wallow in it, we're actually doing the opposite -- looking at the problems of the past in order to avoid them.

I also can relate to paying attention to how your body feels.  I had been rationalizing things with my mind for years, more often than not determining that she was right or I needed to work harder.  My brain often did not serve me well.  I totally lost touch with my gut.  I started paying attention to my body and it was screaming at me.

WW

[Mustbeabetterway]

Oz, I totally understand why this is so heart wrenching for you.  It's been the same for me.  It seems that almost everything has already been said in this post.  I'm rooting for you and your daughters to find peace and happiness.

Mustbeabetterway

[Speck]

Oz,

How have things been going for you, bud?

How are you feeling?


-Speck

[ozmatoz]

Thanks for checking in.  What an awful couple of days.  She's in tatters telling me how even if there is a sliver of hope beneath my facade of hurt that we should work this out.  Don't do this to the kids, invest the time, energy and money from the divorce into us instead.  We can do this, don't make this me vs you.  We just need to come together.

I don't hate this woman but her all in version of love is not healthy and she is not logical and she is looking for answers.  She can't understand any of the answers which makes me the bad guy all over again. 

I feel like I want to puke today.

[Jeffree]

Oz,

Don't do this to the kids, invest the time, energy and money from the divorce into us instead.

That's the same B.S. my STBx has said, and just as recently as last week has been claiming she wants things to get back to normal (normal in the sense of a family she broke up being as together as they can be when she pops in unannounced). I've taken it all to mean that either her backup plan didn't work out the way she was hoping, OR she hasn't been able to find safe passage with someone else yet and needs to feel as though I'm on some back burner for her.

Regardless, what I don't like about the way your STBx has put it is that it's still YOU making the FOG sacrifices for her and the kids. Nowhere do I hear that she understands how she's hurt you and that YOU deserve to be happy.

Maybe if you can be firm as to what you deserve and stick to that it might make things shake out more clearly?

Also, I have to say that if I was to ever to have received anything along these lines from my STBx before I had asked to be in separate bedrooms, I would have relented. I just would have. It would have been at least a semblance of awareness of the situation that deserved to be addressed. Instead, what I got was just constant abuse, crazymaking, blame, cruelty, lies, deception, etc., to the point that I will never entertain going back with her.

Lastly, I can appreciate how hard it is to hear what your STBx is saying to you and stand firm with your position.

J

[ozmatoz]

Thanks Jeffree, its part of the million things she is throwing at me right now.

She says she's laying her hurt aside and coming to me bare and believes our abilities to do this differently together.  She has strongly vowed to work on making us both happy and to treat me with more kindness and respect.  To talk to me without making threats.  She's asking me to take a risk and be willing to give it one more try for our family. 

She's going down memory lane and telling me all the things she loved about me and the things I did for her.

She vows to build me back up and never tear me down, to be there and support me.

I have no idea what this all really means in her reality.  On the surface these words sound nice, they seem apologetic, but why now?  Why not 6 months ago, why not 2, 3, 4 years ago?

I don't think I'm a back up plan, I think she threw a lot of crap at me that wasn't true so I don't think she's got anyone/anything lined up.  What I do think is happening is she doesn't know how to live without me.  I feel like I'm the only one that took care of her, she knows that and is now facing the reality that she is losing it.  I don't think she knows what to do so in the midst of lashing out she is going for broke and promising the moon.

Nice to hear, but when I sit and realize that I just don't feel comfortable around her.  She's the last person right now that I want to invest any more effort or time into.  When I go out without her, or just me and the kids I feel so much more at peace.  I know that divorce flips the house and upsets a lot of things for the kids.  I think D16 will be ok but the logistics between the two kids and D11's school is going to be daunting.

I feel like even in divorce I will be having to take care of her crap and holding her hand through it all.  I feel like its not my turn anymore, but I also don't want to fall into being/sounding like a "victim"

I just wished she'd say ok, I get it we've both tried and haven't been able to make it work.  Lets figure out the best thing for the kids... .I know that can't happen with her. 

[Speck]

Oz,

I don't hate this woman but her all-in version of love is not healthy and she is not logical and she is looking for answers.  She can't understand any of the answers which makes me the bad guy all over again.

I understand exactly where you are, friend. It's tough.

I have no idea what this all really means in her reality.  On the surface these words sound nice, they seem apologetic, but why now?  Why not 6 months ago, why not 2, 3, 4 years ago?

Have you sat down and asked her this? And, if so, what was her answer?

What I do think is happening is she doesn't know how to live without me.  I feel like I'm the only one that took care of her, she knows that and is now facing the reality that she is losing it.  I don't think she knows what to do so in the midst of lashing out she is going for broke and promising the moon.

Yes, it does seem like she is panicking a bit here. She doesn't understand that her hurtful actions/behavior has had fatal consequences on your heart. It's almost like she is trying to deny the reality of your suffering, which is a hallmark of BPD.

Nice to hear, but when I sit and realize that I just don't feel comfortable around her.  She's the last person right now that I want to invest any more effort or time into.

After my wife left me the third time, I never felt completely easy around my uBPDex ever again. When she left me the fourth and final time, I was filled with understandable shock/betrayal, yes, but also an immediate relief. It was finally over. I watched her divorce me without protest. Four months later, I am so grateful that I did not beg her to stay or try to "work it out" with her. My life has real hope again.

But... .I understand that every situation is different. I just wanted to put my story out there as a different perspective... .only you will know if it resonates.

We're with you every step of the way, Oz.


-Speck

[Jeffree]

Well, that certainly answers the question you posed initially in this thread. You can't see the reality because she constantly changes it for good as well as bad.

It'd be easy if it was all just bad and getting worse all the time. You'd have no choice.

But when she dangles that white flag in front of you, and even says some things in ways you had written her off as incapable of, that makes it tricky.

Again, I am past the point of no return with my STBx, but if at some point along the way (probably up until she anger s3xed me for the last time last summer) she would have said anything along these lines of your wife's, I would have given it a shot.

Granted, it wouldn't be a shot with me acting as though none of her b.s. had happened, but I would have been open to revisiting marriage counseling and trying to rebuild all the bridges she burned down and each of us taking accountability in our roles in it all and taking baby steps toward rebuilding trust in each other.

J

[ozmatoz]

Speck thanks for hanging with me here, its tough being the one that is trying to leave.  I thought for a time she was going to go and that would have been much easier.

Have you sat down and asked her this? And, if so, what was her answer?

I did ask her this and she said that she was hiding behind her hurt and was unwilling to let herself be open and vulnerable.  She said that all the hurtful things she said and did were out of protection for fearing I would hurt her. (hurt him first... .very BPD).  She states that she wishing she had dropped the facade earlier, but that she's doing it now, and that should count for something... .  I struggle with this, some of the things she said and did were fairly atrocious.

She doesn't understand that her hurtful actions/behavior has had fatal consequences on your heart.

Thank you for these words, they've been escaping me.  I may use them tonight if she has some moments where I think I can get through to her.  All day its been booklets of text telling me how much we can do this together and that its ok, she understands I'm hurt but still chooses me and I should still choose her.  Its not about choosing to move towards a better life, I want that for both of us.  Its about choosing to not have her be a part of it.  I don't ever see myself feeling the security I need around her.

Jeffree

You can't see the reality because she constantly changes it for good as well as bad.

Yes, indeed she is trying to show things in a positive light, and I guess I can't fault her for that.  Her world is about to crumble and she thinks I am being mean and cruel and in a rush.  Its been going downhill for years and she's been asking me to leave (Literally thousands of times) over the past year.  I sat on the summons for a month before serving her.  Then I had the lawyer draft up something saying that she could stay at the house for a few months (all expenses covered by me as usual) so the kids can finish out the school year, then sell the house, pay off bills and both of us land on two feet.  She told me today there's no way she'd accept that and its far from amicable... .what?  There is literally no possible way for me to give her any more...

Granted, it wouldn't be a shot with me acting as though none of her b.s. had happened, but I would have been open to revisiting marriage counseling and trying to rebuild all the bridges she burned down and each of us taking accountability in our roles in it all and taking baby steps toward rebuilding trust in each other.

I think this hits on the nail on the head too.  There have been many on here who over time had a spouse finally own up and I often wondered what that would be like.  Now... ?  Now I know, and its terrifyingly confusing.  I can't even count how many times she's said to me to stop looking at her past and to look at her now.  I don't think she'll ever understand what her past did to me.  She's going to force me to be the bad guy and thats tough.  She knows thats not my nature.

Good luck with your situation as well.

[Jeffree]

I thought for a time she was going to go and that would have been much easier.

It was much easier for me. I, too, am not comfortable being the bad guy, and how to get her out of my life and not be the bad guy and not spark her being worse than she already was being was a challenge.

Luckily, I caught her talking up some guy, looked up the phone records, and had her dead to rights, so she decided to leave because I was "spying" on her. LOL!

J

[Speck]

Oz,

Yes, we're hanging with you throughout this whole crunchy mess... .

I know it's tough, although, I didn't go through exactly what you're experiencing right now. No, in the end, my wife made it easy for me: She left me the fourth time and then filed for divorce 6 days later. Impulsive!

It appears that your wife is a master at swirling the FOG all around you. Be strong. Listen to your solar plexus... .

Hang in there!


-Speck

[Radcliff]

Hey Oz,

My wife is not nearly as contrite as yours.  But they may share the expectation that we will come back and forgive.  And I think we share the feeling that we can never be safe again.  I feel some of the same confusion as you when my wife is nice about things, or when she talks about the future.

That feeling of safety is a huge deal.  I think it's acceptable to be a one issue voter on that.

I think neither you nor I are hating our wives, or contemptuous of them.  We know they have an illness.  We know their emotions are genuine.  All along, including now, they are desperately using whatever means they can think of to maintain equilibrium, and sadly are being ineffective at getting what they crave -- they get the opposite by driving us away.  I guess where I'm going with this is that the empathetic yet self-respecting way to look at this is that they may genuinely want us back, and genuinely think that things can be better, yet not have the tools or capability to deliver on their promises. 

This following paragraph, I'm including with some trepidation, because part of me thinks I should just shut up and back you up as you walk out the door -- set me straight if I'm not giving you the support you need.  Any more thoughts on mentioning DBT to your wife?  Just throwing out ideas, but you could do a legal separation with a custody arrangement to get most of the peace of a divorce, and she jumps in full force into DBT.  A therapeutic separation, with only upside for you?  Even if you divorce, she perhaps gets healthier, and you get a better coparent.  I'm not very optimistic about how things are going to go with my marriage but I think it's a good thing for all of us that she's getting DBT.  The thing my wife doesn't understand, and you'd soon see if your wife understood, is at this point it is not enough to have a cessation of hostilities and we start hashing out our marriage like equals.  In order to win my heart and make me feel safe, she'd have to get healthy and then go beyond that to fantastic levels of love and compassion with unrealistic consistency for a long period of time.  I am not sure it's realistic to expect any woman to pour on enough love to balance the universe like that, let alone my wife.  Sorry, I'm all over the map here.  Your case hits too close to home for me to be clean and crisp!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks for checking in everyone.
Update: she is still really pushing and trying to grab at me, climb into my bed, tell me she's laying down her walls, wants the privilege to earn back my love... . 

She is telling me she can see uncertainty in me and that since "she knows" that I'm not 100% that I should withdraw the petition and give her time to show me we can make this work.  I'm seeing that as more black and white thinking, of course this is dirty, of course this is hurtful.  Her 100% doesn't take into account her inabilities to really change, or see the damage caused, or realize my caretaker personality.  Of course I'd like things to be different.  Do I have trepidation about divorce?  Of course I do, I think that should be normal right?

Thing is, she has to go to her lawyers office tomorrow to answer the divorce petition.  She says to me that once we start negotiating she guarantees more hurt and resentment and that it is a point of no return for her.  That it will kill any of the slightest chances of whats left (if any).

WW you are right, she may really want what we have (we do have a lot), and I can feel that her emotions are strong and probably true.  What is sad is that in those moments I don't think she can really grasp the damage done.  I don't think she even feels its there and therefore we can do it, we can make this better... .  Maybe when I look at her we sadness and care (I will always love her) she confuses that with a willingness to dive back into this marriage.

I appreciate your continued thoughts on DBT, but therapy is just a no go.  Couples therapy was screamed at me as a no for months, then she refused to go back to see her own therapist from years ago, then I wasn't allowed to go... .now the tune is couples therapy is ok, and oh by the way I went back to see my old therapist.  Some time.  Like December.  Oh no I actually went a few times... .blah blah... .I think you can see how much I don't believe she's seen her therapist and it only tells me she would never follow through for the long term that she would need to get better.

point it is not enough to have a cessation of hostilities and we start hashing out our marriage like equals.  In order to win my heart and make me feel safe, she'd have to get healthy and then go beyond that to fantastic levels of love and compassion with unrealistic consistency for a long period of time. I am not sure it's realistic to expect any woman to pour on enough love to balance the universe like that, let alone my wife.

Couple things here. Totally agree that this sudden stop of angry and hurt and "dropping of walls" is NOT enough.  I have my own things to own in this dysfunction and I was for a time willing to own them provided she brought something to the table.  Just peacefully co-existing is not good enough.  What I am having a hard time saying to her is that its not just sudden reversal of her actions that can stop this.  I am being honest with her that the bar I would have to set is so impossible that I don't even want to put her through that.  I'm tired of waiting around for it too.  I'll be 40 next month, way too much life left to live like this.

[Jeffree]

She says to me that once we start negotiating she guarantees more hurt and resentment and that it is a point of no return for her.  That it will kill any of the slightest chances of whats left (if any).

Ironically, even good functional relationships involve negotiating, working through things, compromise, sacrifice, etc. Sounds to me that if this is how she wants to coerce you into relenting about the divorce, then this is how she will negotiate will all other aspects of "what's left" of your lives together.

J

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Gotchya on the DBT thing.  A full-on jump into DBT might be a reason to pause, but if she is diddling about even seeing any therapist, that's an "easy" one.  This is not something that gets fixed with a few promises and no fundamentals changing.  The point you make about her not understanding the damage is really something that is hitting me this week.  We just went through a decision about D12's therapist, where I used my legal custody prerogative to override my wife and get a therapist with more DV experience, and she sent me an e-mail talking about how she always got overpowered in our marital decisions and she has to stick up for herself -- and she sends this when there still has not been accountability or reconciliation for her abuse.  She has skipped a few steps!  It just hit me then that she has no earthly idea of how much damage she has done to me.  And this is with DBT.

I am being honest with her that the bar I would have to set is so impossible that I don't even want to put her through that. 

I have had this exact same thought.

I'm tired of waiting around for it too.  I'll be 40 next month, way too much life left to live like this.

Understood.  If it makes you feel any better, you've got me beat by 10 years! 

WW

[ozmatoz]

she sent me an e-mail talking about how she always got overpowered in our marital decisions and she has to stick up for herself

Again they must have been separated at birth... A main point she keeps trying to drive home is that she felt i always overrode her decisions, that she never had a say, and now that she is empowered and sticking up for herself I no longer like her or the r/s.  Says that i only want a passive woman who would role over.

Frankly thats complete BS, most of the time i would have to take care of something or make a decision because she wouldnt/couldnt. Of course whatever choice i made was wrong and i would certainly hear about it.

Good job though sticking your guns and getting a better fit for D12’s therapy.

Jeffree, you make a great point. If thats how she feels about sonething like divorce... .thats how she’ll go through eveverything. Conflict and chaos. I’m all set with that!

[Radcliff]

Again they must have been separated at birth... A main point she keeps trying to drive home is that she felt i always overrode her decisions, that she never had a say, and now that she is empowered and sticking up for herself I no longer like her or the r/s.  Says that i only want a passive woman who would role over.

It is remarkable.  I have watched us make couples decisions for years, and have adapted over time, but it still is impossible.  When we were young, I probably was fully half the problem.  I had a lot to learn.  I'm still a big part of the problem, I'm sure, but I believe that her inability to have a rational discussion, manage emotions, see me realistically, and all of the other things that go along with BPD are crippling.  She does give in to me sometimes.  But what I'd rather have her do is to calmly assert herself for what she needs and we could talk it out.  She also completely is not remembering all of the times she terrorized me into getting her way.  For me to say what I want and need, even in the gentlest way, feels overbearing and threatening to her.  The only way she knows how to deal with it is to totally give in, or go into full combat mode.

So, she is remembering all the times that she gave in, and forgetting all the times she went into full combat.  In her mind, she is the aggrieved party.  As much as I know about BPD, it is still stunning and awfully sad for all of us.

WW

[Speck]

Hey, ozmatoz:

How have things been going for you since you last shared?

We are here if you need to talk. I hope things are going okay.


-Speck

[ozmatoz]

Hey Speck, thanks for checking in.

How are things?  I just keep digging myself new holes to fall down.  Her recycle attempts are just insane.  I have no idea how to stay out of these messes she makes everywhere. I've never in my life seen her this willing to admit wrong doing to just about anything I throw out there.

She is all over me.  When I ask for a bit of breathing room she starts crying saying that she knows touch is my love language and she ignored it for far too long...   The pressure to intimate is ridiculous, she follows me around the house like a lost puppy.
She talks about crazy sexual things and won't stop sending explicit pictures of herself.  Its frankly a bit creepy.

I've never been painted so "white" in my life and I know the other shoe is going to drop any moment and my anxiety is at a ridiculous all time high.  It is taken a physical toll on my, when my stress levels hit critical mass my whole body starts to cramp and I am in a lot of real physical pain.  Couple that with the emotional hurt, well its tough some days.

I've filed for divorce, she's received the papers, signed and acknowledges that we have a court date in 3 weeks yet refuses to talk about any details of separating.  On one hand she cries about spending money on the lawyers and why can't we just work some things out between ourselves. To save money I was the one that suggested mediators not lawyers, she was the one that said no she wanted a lawyer on "her side".  Now collectively $15k in... .but its my fault that we have lawyers and spending all this money.

This is where things start to get dangerous though... .  When I press her to talk about splitting, no matter if its during an argument or a time when she's relatively calm she flat out refuses to hear any of it.  She continues to tell me that we can work it out and that I owe her and our kids another chance. Again.  And again after that.  She tells me she knows I still love her and this will work out.  She continues to ask me what it would take for me to stay.  Finally I asked her what would it take for her to let go and she replied with: "I will NEVER let go.  I will NEVER let go of you.  I REFUSE to let go.  I love you unconditionally".  I'm not sure what is going to happen as we get closer to our court date... .

She asked to meet for a drink after work last night because my mother was watching the kids.  At first I said no because she was posing it as a date with her to enjoy life, love and each others company together... .  Eventually she relented and said fine, just meet me for a drink they have your favorite beer on tap and the kids already ate dinner.  Only to find out later she was telling all her friends she was out on date night with her husband.  I was already there so I just let it go and figured I'd enjoy a good beer and food.  I was just annoyed that she cannot just talk or just "be".  Everything I do that is kind or any inkling of things together she takes completely the wrong way.  She seems no matter what I say or do take it as a sign of reconciliation.  It really is crazy.

We had good conversation and laughed on a few things and that is where I keep getting in trouble.  I don't hate this women and I am trying to maintain some relationship with her for the kids sake but she can't see that.  For her if I'm talking to her I must be madly in love and saving the marriage... .  So damn frustrating.  I can really see why NC is a must but how to do that living at home whilst waiting for a court date, and dealing with kids... .

My head is spinning.

I hope you all are having a great weekend.  Still cold but at least the sun is shining.

Much love,
-Oz

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Oz,

Of course your head is spinning, it’s being spun.  I can relate to you needing to not be at war, yet not wanting to reconcile.  I think it is a tightrope until things are final. 

My stbxh has been alternately nice, apologetic then in a rage and combative.  It certainly is enough to make your head spin. 

It sounds as if you are resolute, but are compassionate and trying for peace in your family.  I think you are doing a good job, it takes so much self control.

Hang in there, there’s light at the end of the tunnel (sunshine, not impending collision).

Peace and Blessings,



Mustbe

[Radcliff]

Hi Oz,

Glad to hear an update from you.  That sounds head-spinningly tough to deal with.  You don't want to hurt her by rejecting her, and you also don't want her going off the deep end after being rejected, yet you want to maintain your boundaries.  My stress reached astronomical heights, and my physical symptoms were extreme when I was going through something similar to what you are going through now.

One thing you could consider is keeping your two attorneys as consulting attorneys, and use a mediator to do some of the heavy lifting and save some money.  You would be able to run everything by your own attorneys on your sides.

We are all rooting for you!  Can you do something to get out of the house a bit?  Take D11 to the library?  Meet your parents for dinner?  How about exercise?  Can you go for runs?

WW

[Speck]

Oz!

It's so great to hear from you! Man, it sounds like you are being worked over big time. I am happy to hear that you are standing firm to your needs (to divorce) in the face of all this... .behavior. You've given it words like "creepy" and "crazy" and it sure sounds like it!

I admire the way you're trying to do this in the most compassionate way possible for her and the kids. It takes a lot of guts and resolve to do what you're doing. We are here with you in spirit, my friend.

Don't forget to eat!


-Speck

[ozmatoz]

I admire the way you're trying to do this in the most compassionate way possible for her and the kids. It takes a lot of guts and resolve to do what you're doing. We are here with you in spirit, my friend.

Don't forget to eat!

Thanks Speck.  I am trying, but I'm hitting my limits.  I drop a note to my attorney last night to do what needs to be done to speed up this process.  I don't have much left in me and I need to get this ball moving again.  I spent some time looking over old communications and issues yesterday and spoke to a close friend that knows us both well.  He put some things pretty bluntly in front of me and gave me the slap in the face I needed.  Unfortunately that means turning the screws a little tighter and I'm afraid of what will happen next.

When things were at their worst after the DV incident I did stop eating and lost about 15lbs (I'm already thin).  Trying to at the very least keep snacking throughout the day.

WW, thanks for the ideas on the mediator, I think at this point involving yet 1 more person that my wife is bound to mistrust will only drag things out longer.  I did put my foot down the other night after a tough day and left the house for a few hours to watch the Bruins game.  She certainly didnt like it, but wth, she already feels like a I'm a deadbeat abandoner anyways... .

Hope you are hanging in there.

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Thanks for the update.  Hang in there, and please keep us posted.  We are thinking of you.  Things are tolerably miserable here.  I am adjusting to the limitations of our situation, and then, I discover a new limitation and adjust to it.  Then another limitation and adjustment.  "Wash, rinse, repeat" as FF says

WW