My story with me exGF what to do?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well I’m gonna post this because I think skip was correct in I have to get it out from beginning to end. Nothing below is my opinion on BPD but the actual tale from beginning to end (or at least to where it is now).

My name is Shawnlam.  I’m 41, an exec in a company and have a military background. My whole career I’ve been a problem solver (for financial,operations) I wish I could say the same for the relationship but it’s not the case. I met xxx at my first ever employer where I spent 21 years. I worked in the same company with her for 5 years but not in the same department. I got to know her because she was friendly and pleasant to speak to (not a flirt ). I had helped her go through a tough time there because her boss was giving her a hard time. I had later found out by her ex best gf she had slept with him causing issues but at the time I didn’t know. Regardless I managed to fix the issues and she was fine afterwards. We were both in relationships at this time but we would all go out in a group of work friends to eat and the shooting club.I left that company to go work for the competition and 1.8 years into that career I became single (so did she). We started to date in September of 2017 and the story begins.

We started with normal little dates like dinners , drinks, movies and we would go up north horseback riding or for nature drives . It clicked easily because we already knew each other and we had common topics like work . Things started to get more intense when we went on a weekend trip with activities etc.On that trip the chemistry was high,we had fun but weren’t fully intimate yet.It was one of the best times I’ve had with a woman because everything was easy.In November we went up to a chalet I rented for a weekend and let’s just say it was almost impossible how magical it was.There we were intimate for the first time ( for those wondering why I waited so long I had heard just too many rumors of her and was somewhat worried she would think I wanted her for this reason but I never liked her for her looks first, although she is a 9.8/10). With that said it was like a dream come true she loved everything I did and in my mind all I could think was how perfect she was for me.

Upon return that following week the texts were getting very intense like as an example the I adore you,I love you’s which all felt great btw to get although too many seem to come but I was OK with that.We went on some other little trips before the holidays and she had sold her house she had with her ex.She/we started talking about moving together near her kids school so they can finish their years (even though I own a home it was much too far from their school). She would send me texts like as an example “I’m so anxious to live with you and start my life with you” and we visited places that she wanted .She then decided to lease an apartment that was too small beside her moms and pull away from the moving in thing almost overnight without discussion.I was pretty upset because I had done a lot of foot work etc to have my house rented ,plus almost placed deposits on a fancy apartment.I told her I didn’t appreciate how she handled that and she should have just told me the truth but instead of having a conversation she pulled back.

Then the holidays came where I had brought her on my side to meet my parents and she stayed at my place when she didn’t have her kids  because she hated her apartment.She had told me she didn’t want to bring me to see her sister because she was weird and I was OK with that. New years cane along and she told me no worries we will go on my dads side.Well I was a little hesitant knowing she had started a pattern of backing out of stuff so I kindly said to her “hey it’s ok if you aren’t ready to introduce your father to me just please tell me the 30th so I can make plans on my side to see family”. Well literally right before we were supposed to go she cancelled me and left me hanging,then wrote me a huge text saying she wants to know how I felt about that and she’s sorry let’s take things slow .To say I was insulted was an understatement but I swallowed it up and she came over late that night to spend the changeover of the new year with me .

After the holidays things got awkward , we did a few trips but the I adore you stuff disappeared yet she mentioned marriage and she said I deserved to have a kid because she knew it was one of my regrets in life not having one .There also had been certain disappearing acts in January where on nights we were supposed to meet up ,radio silence or odd stories that later never added up like her sick grandmother etc.I was skeptical because of all the things her exgf’s told me about her supposed cheating or getting drinks with men who gave her attention. At that time I didn’t confront her until February.

One Thursday night I was supposed to be finishing work late and I told her , she had said that morning she wasn’t feeling well.My meeting ended super early so as usual I called her but no answer.She texts me saying she’s at a clinic (but during off hours )? And when she said she was on her way home 3.5 hr later that night by text I called to see how she was feeling and she refused to answer saying she’s in the car with her kids(which never mattered before ).I had enough of the ghosting weirdness so I got upset and said yeah ok etc etc and that night we broke up.Two weeks later she texted me saying hey can we talk ? And she told me she was pregnant and she scheduled an abortion the day I couldn’t reach her ,I apologized and told her I’d be there for her .She had asked me if I wanted to keep it but I said I couldn’t risk her health (she has a rare disease that can literally almost kill her when pregnant ) and almost did twice with her boys .Somehow I think she was disappointed with my decision but I can’t prove that.We got back together but she said since that day she had huge anxiety and she was purposely ignoring me.Tons of dates cancelled last minute (literally) with tons of lies in between,yet the I love you’s kept coming?

In march we had all planned to go down south for one week her /me and her two kids.She ended up waiting the week before to get her oldest sons passport but screwed up the paperwork.She they emailed me at work saying hey look I’m still taking my vacation but I got something to tell you... .And then she announces she’s going with her friend ____ .So I explained I had put that week in at work for vacation time and the money away? She just blew me off like I don’t understand what she was going through ,and she needs this etc etc.All this after we just had a conversation the previous weekend about stopping the whole cancellation stuff hours before an event ,leaving me to lose endless deposits etc etc. She then blamed my insecurity of her going with a gf down south me thinking she would cheat.Although she did go on a weekend trip 2 hours away in the town her ex ex boyfriend was at that weekend (the same guy who she  apparently cheated with on her last boyfriend with).

That was when I couldn’t take anymore yo yo effects ,cancellations and lies ,my anxiety was at epic levels and I was unbalanced all the time ,lost tons of weight,work was suffering and my friends and family were really worried .I left her again.

Fast forward another 3 weeks and we were back together but she avoided me totally, and said she was skeptical it wouldn’t work and she didn’t trust me .So after a few weeks she left me but in a kind way not mad or getting angry or belittling me ,none of that.

We texted the week after and said we missed each other ,she loves me and she misses me in her life ,I said the same .On Sunday last weekend we went to lunch ,there was pg friendly physical affection and she said she wants to spend time with me now.She said she loved me ,missed being in my arms and would like to date again see where it goes.Even Monday after she wished me a great day .Today I sent her a picture of a nice skyline from the plan ,and told her it was beautiful and reminded me of her ,and she was on my mind today.Her text was , nice! Have fun  because she knows I’m on training in North Carolina.

With that said I don’t know what to do anymore ,I can’t be my old self and get angry,I don’t want to show too much affection either because when she senses she is loved too much she backs away fast.One say like sunday night I’ll get the ugh I love you baby , I miss being in your arms ,I want to spend time with you ,the next  just a hey cool text.

It’s very hard to understand what’s going on ,all I know is I’ve stopped texting like in a relationship because we aren’t in one right now ,just teasing each other I guess I don’t know anymore .All I can say I’ve done different is I’ve stopped drinking and I’ve stopped long texts and frankly most texts .That's my story.There are endless other things I could say about lies and stuff but it’s not relevant I think to where this is now. All I do know now is:

• I can’t fix her and I’m not supposed to anyways

• I have plenty of my own issues I’m working with ,with my therapist like my vulnerability issue(that I had feeling vulnerable) plus other stuff

• I do love her ( not the idea of her but the present version)

What I can tell you about her

• likes to kinda do what she wants more spur of the moment than planning

• drinking /drug /sex problem very impulsive drinking is her worst.

• hard time managing financial/priorities

• hates criticism,and hates embarrassment

And that’s pretty much it,I’ve been up down left right emotionally on here and in real life,I still have health problems from the past 7 months and I’m just trying to remain... .normal? And I don’t want to feel stupid anymore ,I don’t know if she’s playing me or not sure or both god knows? I’m also very very tired physically it’s taken it’s toll just going through my training saps me dry.

Thanks for reading this short novel

[Shawnlam]

Well I’m gonna post this because I think skip was correct in I have to get it out from beginning to end. Nothing below is my opinion on BPD but the actual tale from beginning to end (or at least to where it is now).

My name is Shawnlam.  I’m 41, an exec in a company and have a military background. My whole career I’ve been a problem solver (for financial,operations) I wish I could say the same for the relationship but it’s not the case. I met xxx at my first ever employer where I spent 21 years. I worked in the same company with her for 5 years but not in the same department. I got to know her because she was friendly and pleasant to speak to (not a flirt ). I had helped her go through a tough time there because her boss was giving her a hard time. I had later found out by her ex best gf she had slept with him causing issues but at the time I didn’t know. Regardless I managed to fix the issues and she was fine afterwards. We were both in relationships at this time but we would all go out in a group of work friends to eat and the shooting club.I left that company to go work for the competition and 1.8 years into that career I became single (so did she). We started to date in September of 2017 and the story begins.

We started with normal little dates like dinners , drinks, movies and we would go up north horseback riding or for nature drives . It clicked easily because we already knew each other and we had common topics like work . Things started to get more intense when we went on a weekend trip with activities etc.On that trip the chemistry was high,we had fun but weren’t fully intimate yet.It was one of the best times I’ve had with a woman because everything was easy.In November we went up to a chalet I rented for a weekend and let’s just say it was almost impossible how magical it was.There we were intimate for the first time ( for those wondering why I waited so long I had heard just too many rumors of her and was somewhat worried she would think I wanted her for this reason but I never liked her for her looks first, although she is a 9.8/10). With that said it was like a dream come true she loved everything I did and in my mind all I could think was how perfect she was for me.

Upon return that following week the texts were getting very intense like as an example the I adore you,I love you’s which all felt great btw to get although too many seem to come but I was OK with that.We went on some other little trips before the holidays and she had sold her house she had with her ex.She/we started talking about moving together near her kids school so they can finish their years (even though I own a home it was much too far from their school). She would send me texts like as an example “I’m so anxious to live with you and start my life with you” and we visited places that she wanted .She then decided to lease an apartment that was too small beside her moms and pull away from the moving in thing almost overnight without discussion.I was pretty upset because I had done a lot of foot work etc to have my house rented ,plus almost placed deposits on a fancy apartment.I told her I didn’t appreciate how she handled that and she should have just told me the truth but instead of having a conversation she pulled back.

Then the holidays came where I had brought her on my side to meet my parents and she stayed at my place when she didn’t have her kids  because she hated her apartment.She had told me she didn’t want to bring me to see her sister because she was weird and I was OK with that. New years cane along and she told me no worries we will go on my dads side.Well I was a little hesitant knowing she had started a pattern of backing out of stuff so I kindly said to her “hey it’s ok if you aren’t ready to introduce your father to me just please tell me the 30th so I can make plans on my side to see family”. Well literally right before we were supposed to go she cancelled me and left me hanging,then wrote me a huge text saying she wants to know how I felt about that and she’s sorry let’s take things slow .To say I was insulted was an understatement but I swallowed it up and she came over late that night to spend the changeover of the new year with me .

After the holidays things got awkward , we did a few trips but the I adore you stuff disappeared yet she mentioned marriage and she said I deserved to have a kid because she knew it was one of my regrets in life not having one .There also had been certain disappearing acts in January where on nights we were supposed to meet up ,radio silence or odd stories that later never added up like her sick grandmother etc.I was skeptical because of all the things her exgf’s told me about her supposed cheating or getting drinks with men who gave her attention. At that time I didn’t confront her until February.

One Thursday night I was supposed to be finishing work late and I told her , she had said that morning she wasn’t feeling well.My meeting ended super early so as usual I called her but no answer.She texts me saying she’s at a clinic (but during off hours )? And when she said she was on her way home 3.5 hr later that night by text I called to see how she was feeling and she refused to answer saying she’s in the car with her kids(which never mattered before ).I had enough of the ghosting weirdness so I got upset and said yeah ok etc etc and that night we broke up.Two weeks later she texted me saying hey can we talk ? And she told me she was pregnant and she scheduled an abortion the day I couldn’t reach her ,I apologized and told her I’d be there for her .She had asked me if I wanted to keep it but I said I couldn’t risk her health (she has a rare disease that can literally almost kill her when pregnant ) and almost did twice with her boys .Somehow I think she was disappointed with my decision but I can’t prove that.We got back together but she said since that day she had huge anxiety and she was purposely ignoring me.Tons of dates cancelled last minute (literally) with tons of lies in between,yet the I love you’s kept coming?

In march we had all planned to go down south for one week her /me and her two kids.She ended up waiting the week before to get her oldest sons passport but screwed up the paperwork.She they emailed me at work saying hey look I’m still taking my vacation but I got something to tell you... .And then she announces she’s going with her friend ____ .So I explained I had put that week in at work for vacation time and the money away? She just blew me off like I don’t understand what she was going through ,and she needs this etc etc.All this after we just had a conversation the previous weekend about stopping the whole cancellation stuff hours before an event ,leaving me to lose endless deposits etc etc. She then blamed my insecurity of her going with a gf down south me thinking she would cheat.Although she did go on a weekend trip 2 hours away in the town her ex ex boyfriend was at that weekend (the same guy who she  apparently cheated with on her last boyfriend with).

That was when I couldn’t take anymore yo yo effects ,cancellations and lies ,my anxiety was at epic levels and I was unbalanced all the time ,lost tons of weight,work was suffering and my friends and family were really worried .I left her again.

Fast forward another 3 weeks and we were back together but she avoided me totally, and said she was skeptical it wouldn’t work and she didn’t trust me .So after a few weeks she left me but in a kind way not mad or getting angry or belittling me ,none of that.

We texted the week after and said we missed each other ,she loves me and she misses me in her life ,I said the same .On Sunday last weekend we went to lunch ,there was pg friendly physical affection and she said she wants to spend time with me now.She said she loved me ,missed being in my arms and would like to date again see where it goes.Even Monday after she wished me a great day .Today I sent her a picture of a nice skyline from the plan ,and told her it was beautiful and reminded me of her ,and she was on my mind today.Her text was , nice! Have fun  because she knows I’m on training in North Carolina.

With that said I don’t know what to do anymore ,I can’t be my old self and get angry,I don’t want to show too much affection either because when she senses she is loved too much she backs away fast.One say like sunday night I’ll get the ugh I love you baby , I miss being in your arms ,I want to spend time with you ,the next  just a hey cool text.

It’s very hard to understand what’s going on ,all I know is I’ve stopped texting like in a relationship because we aren’t in one right now ,just teasing each other I guess I don’t know anymore .All I can say I’ve done different is I’ve stopped drinking and I’ve stopped long texts and frankly most texts .That's my story.There are endless other things I could say about lies and stuff but it’s not relevant I think to where this is now. All I do know now is:

• I can’t fix her and I’m not supposed to anyways

• I have plenty of my own issues I’m working with ,with my therapist like my vulnerability issue(that I had feeling vulnerable) plus other stuff

• I do love her ( not the idea of her but the present version)

What I can tell you about her

• likes to kinda do what she wants more spur of the moment than planning

• drinking /drug /sex problem very impulsive drinking is her worst.

• hard time managing financial/priorities

• hates criticism,and hates embarrassment

And that’s pretty much it,I’ve been up down left right emotionally on here and in real life,I still have health problems from the past 7 months and I’m just trying to remain... .normal? And I don’t want to feel stupid anymore ,I don’t know if she’s playing me or not sure or both god knows? I’m also very very tired physically it’s taken it’s toll just going through my training saps me dry.

Thanks for reading this short novel

[Skip]

I'm 41 VP in a company,home owner and was very confident and high self esteem (before her). She is 29 mother of two (different fathers)... .

Does your time line say that your relationship was hot and heavy phase for 6 weeks in November/December and then the two of you struggled to stay on the same page with commitments to do things together with her making changes after you had planned things? Where the changes all related to her friends, or were they related to all sorts or things (kids, family, friends, events, etc.).

What is her life like?

Does she work a lot? Does she have help with the children? How old are the children? Are there any struggles there? Does she have close friends that she stays in touch with an active? How are the bio-dads involved? Financially? Raising the kids?

What kind of relationship do you have with her friends, siblings, her children, her mom, dad? How old are her parents?

What kids of activities does she do with you? What does she do with her freinds? Kids?

Trying to understand the flip side of this relationship... .

[Shawnlam]

Well here is everything I got one her and her entourage /life style .

She is the mother of two boys 7 and 11 nice kids to be honest.The father of the oldest is not in the picture at all and the father of the youngest is.Both pay for their responsibilities.The second father of the youngest gets the two boys every second weekend ( he adopted the first one when the father wasn’t present).She has the children every week but manages to have the present father take them when needed weeks or days depends on what she needs.Her mom takes care of them a lot as well during the week because of how far the school is since  she moved.

She has two gf’s total both with kids so she does a lot of stuff with them and all their children which makes pretty much sense.

Family wise I’ve met her mother who was married three times and is now divorced and had 3 children of her own all out of wedlock.So to tear that down she has one step sister and two step brothers all different fathers.She rarely talks or see them but from what I’m told she is t fighting with any of them.I haven’t met any of them just her mother.Her father according to her and her ex best gf have told me he is the most normal of all of them ,she rarely sees him because she gets emotional every time she leaves his place however I can’t explain why.All I know is I used to get texts almost always saying things like  why do I always push away the people I love  and stuff to that context when leaving his place ... .always had me confused why the normal one made her feel weird.

As for cancelling the dates or planned events it was to go off with her friend rxxx last minute. somewhere, she used to tell me rxxx was impulsive,last minute and a bad influence on her but she also likes to do drugs /booze and sex so whatever that’s worth.She is 33 lives in her moms basement and has a kid as well and spends her time complaining about her life  (my ex’s words not mine).I also never met her .I did meet her other normal friend cxxxxx who seemed very nice . So to sum it up she I met mother,kids ,one friend .Oddly the only other boyfriend  that was deemed “normal” like me met the same people only.All the fixer upper guys were shown off to everybody (her words not mine) again can’t explain that.

[Shawnlam]

I forgot to add that her job is a good paying job 60k plus and  she does normal day shift hours 8 a day .Towards her children I got along fantastic with them and they liked me ,great boys.No work issues on her part and no issues with raising her boys (no problems beside normal kid stuff).

Out relationship started great but kinda tapered off around the holidays she got very emotional during that period and somewhat I’d say scared but more anxious I guess? But I got the 3 months of honeymoon period  for what it’s worth,but the holidays really struck something in her I guess and with me to being confused and angry how things went south.

[Skip]

What kind of relationship do you have with her friends, siblings, her children, her mom, dad? How old are her parents?

How involved are you?

I think it would help to park this here (see below). Your "beef" with her. I know you were in a an angry mood when you wrote it (which is ok). It shows your feelings/ anger you have, how you react when challenged, and how you feel about her/what has happened. I think it will also help you and the group in understanding this situation.

Don't forget I’ve known this woman for 5+ years before we became intimate.With that said I don’t need to walk away from her in order to “move on” as you put it.

You conveniently tend to leave out the fact SHE wanted to move in, SHE got pregnant and asked if I wanted to keep it and SHE asked me about marriage.

Besides spending endless sums of money to treat her for what I thought she deserved to be treated like , went through an abortion in order to save her health because she almost died twice with the two kids she had, and me not signing a lease to a fancy apartment I’m not seeing this passive aggressive attitude here?

You tend to forget very easily the roller coaster ride of here constant false promises and suggestions all endless since December .

I just backed out of the game she was playing because frankly it was pure insanity.No normal human can sit there and take the ( let’s move in together,let’s not,l want you to meet my family next week ,oh no I changed my mind ,let’s rent a chalet next weekend oh whoops I’m gonna go on another vacation instead with my gf last minute sorry you lost 2 grand in deposits ) it was pure stupidity and frankly.

All knowing it was pure impulsive behavior that drove me insane so I folded the cards and walked away.

You can type away that I did a whole bunch of things wrong but I’m afraid you are the one that’s incorrect here ,you have but shades of the story on all the torment ,mind games and emotional tantrums she took,caused. She then as per the BPD handbook blamed everything on my insecurity and you bought that?  

Yeah no brother sorry but you are way way off .

Im someone who speaks his mind and when I see BS I call it BS .

[Shawnlam]

With her kids pretty close did outings a lot etc , the rest 0% she keeps her family and friends at bay ... .even amongst themselves oddly her friends don’t interact with each other

[babyducks]

Hi Shawnlam,

I've read much of your story as it appears here on the boards.   I can see that this has a been difficult time.

As I read what you have posted in this thread, what strikes me as how vastly different your backgrounds are,   you: military, fixed, regular, consistent, older, unwavering, pretty orderly.    her:   more spontaneous, younger, impulsive, free spirited, more concerned with the moment.

Please Note I am not making any judgements about those differences.   I am not saying one is better than the other.   Or one is wrong or one is right.    She processes life much differently than you do.  She has had the experiences and the background to have a much different set of  life values,   a much different approach to life, a vastly different set of standards than you do.

In my relationship there was a lot, and I mean A LOT, of black and white thinking.   My EX did it.   I certainly did it too.   By black and white thinking I mean,   this is absolutely horrible,   this was the best ever,  this was totally the wrong thing to do,   this was entirely the fault of ______________(fill in the blank)   etc etc etc

Here is what I learned.   Black and white thinking is NOT my friend.   Doesn't matter if I am doing it or my Ex was.    Even after the relationship ended there was a ton of black and white thinking.    That black/white cognitive distortion was harmful.

Black and white thinking raises emotional reactivity.   There is a lot of emotional reactivity in what you write.    There was a lot of emotional reactivity in what I felt during and after my relationship.    If I had one suggestion for you it would be work to identify and then dial down the harmfully intense emotional reactivity.

Emotional reactivity means your throttle is wide open, you are always on the roof, you are always going 100 miles an hour.

You want to start to identify when there is intense emotional reactivity going on and slow and ratchet it down.

Once the reactivity, the sensitivity dies down, it will be easier to deal with some of the emotional topics raised by this relationship.

'ducks

[Shawnlam]

So if I’m not mistake here the best thing I should do is when challenged or feel challenged I should back off first ,seriously calm down , review the situation and put myself kinda in her shoes sort of speak .Then realize she is the way she is , accept that’s just the way she is gonna react regardless of how I’d react in that particular scenario and in turn understand and accept it or have a calm talk about it(always keeping in mind her high emotional structure)?

I ask because I think frankly because I love her I’m just going to have to apprecite her faults /positives for what they are period ,or move on if I can’t accept them? Obviously not abusive stuff like taking a physical beating (which she’s never ever done) or walking in on her cheating etc Minus anything extreme I mean ,the above pertains ? I’m going to have to have a long talk with myself to see if I’m willing to learn the tools needed to always put someone first , I love her immensely but that’s a conversation I gotta have with my soul... .this also is even if she wants this as it’s a two part program.I believe she does and lots of people on this board have told me she sees me as the “safe” guy.The one that provides the best and frankly never even raised his voice at her once .Although I did leave her twice ,besides that I never attacker’s her or cheated on her or used her for her body.Hell even she said to me all those things , and often says to me ,what do you see in me ? You kill me yeah know,you are such a sweetheart,and an amazing man ,husband material.Always found that she had two personalities going at first but now that I know more about BPD it makes more sense.

[juju2]

Hi Shawn,

My heart goes out to you.

There are no answers.

Only questions.

If you can be --i mean be -- with all the roller coaster, everything, you are up for this. 

It's not like anything you have been prepared for or anything you deal with professionally.  If you are willing to not know what is going on, accept, go w what is being offered, not making sense, knowing it's all unconventional.  Knowing these are your choices.  It is no one's business.

It's about being willing to enter the unknown.

j

[Skip]

I’m just going to have to apprecite [appreciate]her faults /positives for what they are period ,or move on if I can’t accept them?

In short, yes. I have been dating a very mature, level headed women for a couple of years. Like is any relationship, we didn't see or do everything the same way. She said very early on "I hope you will adore and find my quirks endearing, not be angry about them".

I think that sums it up, Shawn. Your girl is spontaneous and a free spirit. That's not your style. Can you love it?  My gf is highly independent and spontaneous. In the beginning it was annoying as could be... .I'd pack clothes for a dinner at a steakhouse and she would shift plans to dining at an outdoor dog park (or vice versa). We worked it out and frankly, it is endearing to me now. But I had to make changes... . I pack for a range of events (I have a go bag), I have the right attitude. In time, when she trusted that I wasn't going to take her independence away, she started to adapt to things that were important to me. It took us 3-4 months to get a good rhythm on this. I had to lead in the beginning and have faith that she would eventually buy in and do the same. She did.

So if I’m not mistake here the best thing I should do is when challenged or feel challenged I should back off first ,seriously calm down , review the situation and put myself kinda in her shoes sort of speak .

Very important. With her. With the next girl. With any partner.

Then realize she is the way she is , accept that’s just the way she is gonna react regardless of how I’d react in that particular scenario and in turn understand and accept it or have a calm talk about it (always keeping in mind her high emotional structure)?

Very important. With her. With the next girl. With any partner. I often have the calm talk days after the fact (not when emotions are high) so that there is listening and problem solving and a plan for "the next time".

I’m going to have to have a long talk with myself to see if I’m willing to learn the tools needed to always put someone first , I love her immensely but that’s a conversation I gotta have with my soul... .

Yes. You have to decide if you are willing to try. And if so, you should set up accountability partners (like the folks here). You need to take inventory every month or so to see if it is working for you. In my own experience, I mastered the tools and the attitude/perspective with one partner and after achieving peace and compatibility I realized that there was nothing really there for me - I was not getting any of my needs meet. I bent to her and she never reciprocated in a meaningful way. So even if you do this and succeed, it might not be a winner. I will say, what I learned in that relationship (tools) really helped me in future relationships, though.

this [assumes] she wants this as it’s a two part program.I believe she does and lots of people on this board have told me she sees me as the “safe” guy.The one that provides the best and frankly never even raised his voice at her once .Although I did leave her twice ,besides that I never attacker’s her or cheated on her or used her for her body.Hell even she said to me all those things , and often says to me ,what do you see in me ? You kill me yeah know,you are such a sweetheart,and an amazing man ,husband material.

Be careful attaching yourself to the words. That caused you a lot of grief. "Marriage", "soulmate", "husband material"... .

People with BPD traits over-react and over-express themselves - both positively and negatively. People with BPD also have impaired executive function - they often react impulsively on feelings in the moment without giving much thought to previous commitments or future implications - more in some situations, less in others.

This is what these inconceivable reversals were all about.

She felt that high for a little while, but she didn't think it out. She probably mentioned it to some people around the holidays and they pushed back on her for being reckless and irresponsible... .she already has a history of 2 babby-daddies... .and two kids she can't raise on her own... . and she is only 8 years into adulthood. Its likely her family wasn't too supportive of her moving into a third man's house after 2 months of romance.  

You banked on what she was saying and were running with it full steam... .and when she tried to slow it down, you were all over her. You bet it all on the words. You have to look beyond that... .you have to read the situation and learn her patterns. This part is a "BPD" thing.

However sweet the words were in November, the reality was the reality. You couldn't see it coming, but now you have experience, so now you know what to look for.

Let's read the situation now as if she was any women on the planet. There are huge issues outstanding right now. These would be a big deal for any women.

1. Five month long beat down over her asking to slow it down
2. Two break ups to "teach her"
3. The abortion - someone else held her hand through that hugely painful emotional experience
4. The family and friends that saw this

The reality now is that all this stuff listed above is smoldering below the surface (fair or not) and words alone are not going to fix it, nor is a fix going to be passing - it will take time and effort.  It would really help to be working on it proactively - like quietly enrolling in an anger management class and working it. That will go a long way if, when she raises the trust issue, you say I have been in class for 6 weeks.

It's a lot to think about... .

[once removed]

Then realize she is the way she is , accept that’s just the way she is

with one caveat... .

see your role in the conflict. not just with her, but with anyone.

its often not so easy for most of us to do, with ourselves. sometimes when i get triggered, its within pretty good reason, but my instincts on what to do about it are not always the best. ill talk to someone i trust for advice, and even then, ill often spend a while in frustration arguing and trying to get them to see my perspective.

and then i calm down, and i see things more clearly, and i get what they were trying to say, and my path becomes more obvious.

what do i mean by "your role in the conflict"? i mean generally, in a given situation, are you making things better or worse? is her behavior a response or reaction to yours? is your reaction to that a healthy, smart, practical, or mature one?

for example, ive called her a flake before. is she? is making plans and cancelling them something she does frequently, to everyone? is it something she does frequently to all her boyfriends? is it just a defense mechanism in her relationship with you? does how you respond to it make it worse or reinforce that defense mechanism?

if its something she does frequently to everyone, yes, you will have to accept that about her; it may be workable, it may not be. if its a defense mechanism in her relationship with you, you may have to ride that out, and play it cool for a while until she sees change and consistency. if what you do makes it worse, stop

in other words, dont just jump to the conclusion that everything she does is "the way she is". some things may be, some things may not be, some things may be workable, others may not be.

its okay to be hurt or triggered or mad about a given behavior sometimes, too. i can be pretty sensitive, easily hurt or frustrated. what has helped me in those situations is to reflect, not react. we can help you do that, challenge your perspective, offer others, that sort of thing.

a lot of what you are talking about is touching on has to do with Wisemind. it can be your best friend right now: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

lastly, i really applaud your efforts here shawn. your story makes a lot more sense, and its easier to see your side and hers and better support you.

[Skip]

And just so this doesn't get lost... .all of this is about being strong and benevolent.

We often confuse being strong as that elephant seal fighting another elephant seal on the beach... .that's two males fighting. The wining elephant seal shows his strength to the female by attracting her, making her safe and providing for her in the way she wants.

You can do that without being a doormat.

[Shawnlam]

Thanks guys I’ll start reaching how to be more empathetic ,I’ve read most on what’s on here time for some YouTube video examples.At least in the meantime I’ll learn ,if we go out again on a date I’ll be better prepared .

[Skip]

Did you see this video?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks guys I’ll start reaching how to be more empathetic ,I’ve read most on what’s on here time for some YouTube video examples.At least in the meantime I’ll learn ,if we go out again on a date I’ll be better prepared .

Have you considered seeing a counselor?  I'm kinda struck by your comments about how your dealings with her have affected you emotionally and undermined your self-esteem.

I had to see a counselor for a while (about 3 months) when things got rough in our relationship. it helped me keep things in perspective.  Like "okay, so I'm not going crazy... ."

[babyducks]

So if I’m not mistake here the best thing I should do is when challenged or feel challenged I should back off first ,seriously calm down , review the situation and put myself kinda in her shoes sort of speak .

Pretty much yes.

I am going to guess that the military and financial worlds are pretty predictable.  Do a set of prescribed actions and you are pretty certain to get specific results.    Relationships are not that way.   Certainly not a relationship with some one who is struggling.

Avoid adding any volatility to an already volatile situation.

She experiences and expresses life very very differently than you.  That's just the way it is.   It's not good/bad, evil/blessed, right/wrong.    It may not be compatible with you.    and that's completely understandable.

once removed made a good point here:

when i get triggered, its with pretty good reason, but my instincts on what to do about it are not always the best. ill talk to someone i trust for advice, and even then, ill often spend a while in frustration arguing and trying to get them to see my perspective.

and then i calm down, and i see things more clearly, and i get what they were trying to say, and my path becomes more obvious.

its okay to be hurt or triggered or mad about a given behavior sometimes, too. i can be pretty sensitive, easily hurt or frustrated. what has helped me in those situations is to reflect, not react. we can help you do that, challenge your perspective, offer others, that sort of thing.

It's okay to be hurt or triggered or frustrated.    It's also okay to feel love and affection.    It's what you do with those feelings that really matters.

Avoid adding any volatility to an already volatile situation.     Look for the shades of gray in between the extremes of the black and white thinking.    As I read what Skip and Once Removed have been telling you,   in the nuances between the extremes is where you'll find your most rewarding results.

'ducks

[Shawnlam]

At the end of next week I’ll probably ask her out as she clearly gave me a hint last Sunday by saying last week may beginning of June.She seems to be really keen on getting her apartment thing settled it’s a huge obstacle in her life she just hates that place and it drags her down.Although her drinking is outta control she seems overall in a better place mentally (from an anxiety perspective).Ive noticed she has a defined limit of obstacles she can handle EX: the apartment,kids,her work ,and at the time me .I was too much for her so she let me go but now that things seem to be getting better for her she has shown interest again.The break did her some good anyways ,

[once removed]

At the end of next week I’ll probably ask her out as she clearly gave me a hint last Sunday by saying last week may beginning of June.

what happens if she agrees and then cancels?

you dont have to rush this or make any moves, and youre not certain where its going.

why not let her make those moves, as far as suggestions to get together? it seems like shed be more likely to follow through, and you have an opportunity to show her you can play it cool.

[Shawnlam]

That is a good point but I’ve never seen her reach out to me in the context of now.Wht I mean is she’s still being shy ,I think in a way she’s seeing if I’m interested if that makes sense? I’m still not sure about next week either,I know if I don’t ask or show interest I may not get that chance,she’s a tuff cookie used to guys chasing her.When we were together it was easier because we’d both chase each other around.I could wait it out and see where it goes but if she gets nothing from me  it may back fire (all theory forecasting). Or I just text her every 3-5 days but just to see how things are going and wish her a good weekend like she did with me Monday morning right after Sunday

I don’t know if this makes sense or not but every time she sees me physically for a day or two she gets clingy and happy and texty which is fine but then it dies off.Its very similar to our last two months together she’s smart and avoided me in person in order to let go of me.Its like she can’t do it after meeting because we have strong chemistry and she gets very emotional around me in a loving/happy way.Kinda dumb thing to say here but I got the impression she saw where the relationship was going from a love perspective and it freaked her out so she pulled away ? Maybe she will contact me to meet,but then again maybe not.Her text to me Sunday was “ I will let you take me out for sure,I want to see you now” although an odd statement it’s how she is.She even mentioned end of may first week of June?Like she has a preplanned schedule to this I’m not aware of? Very odd position I’m in,but I could wait and see if she reaches out to me by not texting or suggestion... .maybe I’ll try that(hope it doesn’t back fire but she’s unpredictable).

[Skip]

Kinda dumb thing to say here but I got the impression she saw where the relationship was going from a love perspective and it freaked her out so she pulled away?

Ugh.    You don't read her well. Get help with that.  

Empathy. How did she see it?

A. There is too much love here, its so good, I'm freaked out!
B. This guy was great but now he is getting clingy and when I try to get some space he is a brute.

Clingy and brute man -  not not attractive to woman.  You really have to bury Mr. Clingy and Mr. Brute 10 feet down. When she gets Mr. Clingy and Mr. Brute out of her mind, things will be better. And she is smart, if he disappears, she will push a few buttons to see if he was just hiding behind around the corner.

If I was you, I would be scarce and easy going and let her take the lead. That means laying low until that shift happens and it could take a couple of weeks.

All the intense stuff in November was great for her, but then there was "clingy and brute" and "the baby" and the "break-ups" which all make you as both attractive (when she remembers the good times) and not viable (when she thinks of the bad times). She is conflicted and could go either way. If you could tested her every day, you would find that there are days when she is done with all of this and days when she remembers good times.

Do something that has no selfishness or clingyness attached to it. I don't what that might be, maybe a made service gift certificate, or offer to bring your friends over to move her when she moves, or... .no strings attached.

Pick something that will be easy, nice, no strings attached.

[Shawnlam]

What I think I’ll do is take both once removed and your idea and kinda back off ,no text see what happens between now and let’s say next Thursday. If she texts of course I’ll answer but if not I’ll repost back on here.So no offer to meet or date and as for a gift she hates and I mean hates gifts for some reason(I think it embarrasses her and she hates embarrassment to the extreme).Between now and next week I’ll just study on what and how to be more empathetic.I was gonna text her tomorrow night wishing her a great weekend but nah I’ll just phase a bit away she if she comes to me .

[Skip]

Commit to yourself that you will not do a clingy impulse text (or call)... .you get get jittery and jump... .or if you get angry late at night when things have been quiet, don't let one rip.

When you get texting anxiety, post here.

She has to miss you before she is going to reach out and we never know how long that takes. But it is always longer than we like.

Patience.  You have plenty of things to work on in the mean time.

[Cat Familiar]

I haven’t followed your story until I read this thread, and I think Skip makes a valid point about Clingyguy and Bruteman.

I’ve dealt with both and from my perspective, they’re a lot of bother and a red flag.

My instant impulses to both varieties are: “Jeez, give me some space.” And for Bruteman, “Wow, you scare me.”

Having had both of these personas in a single relationship, I’ve wondered, “Will he ever respect my private time?” And “If he gets this angry about something so inconsequential, what else is under the hood?”

The brute thing is really scary to women. We generally are smaller than men and have less upper body strength and besides, we typically aren’t interested in physical confrontations, and that’s what brutish behavior may lead us to worry about. What comes next?

The clingy thing immediately makes us think we hold all the cards in the relationship and that’s not attractive either. Good grief is this guy that I once had the hots for gonna turn into a puppy and follow me around everywhere?

Sorry if this is blunt, but I wanted to give you an insight into how women think.

[babyducks]

What I think I’ll do is take both once removed and your idea and kinda back off ,no text see what happens between now and let’s say next Thursday. If she texts of course I’ll answer but if not I’ll repost back on here.

Hi Shawnlam,

It's nice to see you take an emotional and intellectual step back and look at things from different perspectives.    That's good work.

One of the great ways to practice (rather than research) empathy is to read posts here and try to understand how the original poster feels and why they would feel that way.

When I first came here I read a lot of posts and was often struck by how our stories were the same.    But after a while I learned to see the differences in our stories.   One size does not fit all.  Seeing how Cat Familiar reacted and why,  and how Once Removed thinks was like a class room.   It helped me a lot.    Looking beyond the cookie cutter view of BPD, looking beyond the black/white sterotypes of relationships and finding the nuance and shades of gray made me a better and smarter duck.