My MIL is uBPD and its ruining my marriage...

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello, I've been with my DH almost 8 years, married almost 4. At first his mom seemed loving, caring, and supportive. We got married and had not problems. Then I became pregnant, this is when everything changed. Long story short, she has lashed out and blown up at me several times. My DH knows something is not right but he isn't always willing to take the steps to remedy it. Most recently, 2 weeks ago, he kicked her out of our house because she was being very rude. She raged against me AND him, telling him she never wanted to talk to him again. A week later she apologized, and now he is acting like everything is ok. How do I help him realize that everything is NOT ok? How do I encourage him to get help to be able to set appropriate boundaries? That he needs help to deal with the emotional trauma from his childhood, and that he can't continue accepting apologies and going on as if nothing has happened? This is tearing apart our marriage, and having two newborn twins is making this even harder.

[Twincessmom22]

Hello, I've been with my DH almost 8 years, married almost 4. At first his mom seemed loving, caring, and supportive. We got married and had not problems. Then I became pregnant, this is when everything changed. Long story short, she has lashed out and blown up at me several times. My DH knows something is not right but he isn't always willing to take the steps to remedy it. Most recently, 2 weeks ago, he kicked her out of our house because she was being very rude. She raged against me AND him, telling him she never wanted to talk to him again. A week later she apologized, and now he is acting like everything is ok. How do I help him realize that everything is NOT ok? How do I encourage him to get help to be able to set appropriate boundaries? That he needs help to deal with the emotional trauma from his childhood, and that he can't continue accepting apologies and going on as if nothing has happened? This is tearing apart our marriage, and having two newborn twins is making this even harder.

[Panda39]

Hi Twincessmom22,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

I'm sorry you aren't feeling consistently supported by your DH.  It is easier for you to see what is going on because you are coming at this from the outside.  The two of them are doing the same old dance they have always done and that feels normal to them both.

Is your MIL formally diagnosed?  How much does your DH know about BPD? How old are the twins?  Does your MIL live with you? Nearby?

You are definitely on the right track about the boundaries, they are to me one of the most important tools we have to make these relationships more tolerable.

I want to point out the box to the right --> each item is a link to more information feel free to browse.

I'm glad you've decided to join us, this has been a really helpful and supportive group for me.  I'm here because my significant other has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife.

Can you tell us what is the toughest behavior you and your husband are having to negotiate in terms of his mom?

Panda39

[Twincessmom22]

To my knowledge she is not formally diagnosed. She has been formally diagnosed with bipolar disorder but she hasn't been to a psychiatrist since I've been in my husbands life. I don't see how a psychiatrist couldn't see her BPD from a mile away, but I doubt she would admit that to anyone. He doesn't know much, he will admit she has a personality disorder but won't delve into it much further. My girls are 4.5 months old, our first/second. She lives 20 minutes, and we not only deal with her but her entire family who enable the behavior. I have seen BPD traits in her mom (DH's grandmother) and her sister. DH's dad is a typical enabler as well.

My biggest struggle right now is an intense urge to protect me and my children from her. I don't want her around them at all, and my husband gets mad at me for it. I want to go NC, he has said he doesn't care if I go NC but he is still going to talk to her and take the girls to see her. The biggest struggle in terms of her behavior is her pretending that everything is ok. She recently apologized for her behavior (she lashed out at me calling me a ___ty mother and wife, a control freak, a germaphobe, etc. etc.). She even told my husband she never wanted to see him again because he chose me over her. Since she apologized he's acting like its all ok. She wants to see us every weekend and he obliges.

[snowglobe]

To my knowledge she is not formally diagnosed. She has been formally diagnosed with bipolar disorder but she hasn't been to a psychiatrist since I've been in my husbands life. I don't see how a psychiatrist couldn't see her BPD from a mile away, but I doubt she would admit that to anyone. He doesn't know much, he will admit she has a personality disorder but won't delve into it much further. My girls are 4.5 months old, our first/second. She lives 20 minutes, and we not only deal with her but her entire family who enable the behavior. I have seen BPD traits in her mom (DH's grandmother) and her sister. DH's dad is a typical enabler as well.

My biggest struggle right now is an intense urge to protect me and my children from her. I don't want her around them at all, and my husband gets mad at me for it. I want to go NC, he has said he doesn't care if I go NC but he is still going to talk to her and take the girls to see her. The biggest struggle in terms of her behavior is her pretending that everything is ok. She recently apologized for her behavior (she lashed out at me calling me a ___ty mother and wife, a control freak, a germaphobe, etc. etc.). She even told my husband she never wanted to see him again because he chose me over her. Since she apologized he's acting like its all ok. She wants to see us every weekend and he obliges.

@Twincessmom22 welcome!
I’m sorry you are finding it hard to deal with your mil behaviours, you are certainly not alone in this scenario. The events you are describing are much too familiar for me, including the dynamics and the things that are being said. You are true mommy warrior, handling twins and these extreme relationships. I can also attest to not wanting my children around my mil, also BPD, her self entitlement, manipulation of my uBPDh and “plotting” were wearing down my marriage by the thread. It became more tolerable when she moved to the countryside with my b-i-l and his family. As a parent, your primary concern is that of your children’s welfare and their emotional state. It’s normal for any non BPD, not wanting to include their children in this intense emotional manipulation. For that reason I often felt/feel that there is an expiration date on my marriage, my uBPDh is a handful, when you add his family of origin into the mix, it becomes toxic environment. I’m currently taking DBT skills training course, and it talks about combination of emotional mind (you not wanting her around, going nc, feeling pain and disappointment when your husband doesn’t take your side) and rational mind (if you go nc, and your husband still sees her and takes your kids to see her, can you stop him from it?) that together produces wise mind. The wise mind is a middle path, that allows you to feel your emotions and validate them, yet it keep your priorities in check (for me, saving my marriage to my uBPDh is still a priority, so I juggle). Furthermore, I also realized that doing things that my husband loves, such as fishing, target shooting, watching him play sport always helped me to strengththen our relationships, so keeping that part of our lives alive helped me to build on these relationships. Time management and planning ahead is also one of the secrets, if your husband works, and you plan our weekends months ahead, that leaves him with less time to give to your mil. I personally constantly stress out the importance of “our family” and making it the priority, for him to spend time with. Also, if you are thinking of boundaries, you may want to consider the way she speaks to you, meaning play a broken record, one of the senior more seasoned members thought be the technique. Every time she raises her voice, speaks to you in a disrespectful way, insults or criticisises you; you say in a very calm, neutral and firm voice “we don’t speak to each other in a —- rude way, disrespecting way, we don’t raise our voices” and you keep on modeling. It will take time, but I promise you, if you stick to this, a new light will be shining down on her, even in your husband’s eyes. The more you keep control of yourself, the crazier she will look. Also, start documenting, even if here. Every single incident, who said what and so on. Nothing says more then the facts, include as many witnesses to it as you can. Lastly, make sure you seek help for yourself. As a mother of two children I remember them being little as one of the hardest parts of my life. I felt raw, vulnerable and exposed, I wanted my uBPDh’s protection from my uBPDmil’s lashing out, he wasn’t consistent or reliable. I had to learn to protect myself from her by my own merit, and set the boundaries. Keep your eyes open for emotional insest,  it took me some time to comprehend and label my uBPDh relationships with his uBPDm, when I did, the triangle became evident. I was, am and will always be “the other woman”. As a wife, you are untitled to be the primary female relationships in your husband’s life. His loyalty to you, level of confiding and trust should be above all the other female relationships

[Notwendy]

Hi Twin,

The behavior you noticed is typical and my BPD mother does it too. I call it the dry erase method. She rages, it's over and then everyone has to pretend it didn't happen ( it is erased). This is how I grew up. My father was also an enabler and we kids were expected to go along with it or he'd be angry at us too.


The problem with expecting your H to see things your way is that, he may not be able to at the moment because this is how he grew up. This is the way his family functioned during his formative years and it seems familiar to him. He also knows that after mom blows up, it's over for her, over for the family---- until the next time and that is the expected pattern.

When your children get a little older, you will see what happens if they eat something that doesn't agree with them. They will get a tummy ache, cry, feel terrible, and then throw up. After throwing up, they feel better and run off to play- leaving mom the pile of vomit- but you will be relieved that they are OK. A person with BPD can not manage uncomfortable feelings, and eventually they come out- in a big rage- but like the kid who just threw up, they feel fine and go on as if nothing happened. As far as they are concerned, if they feel OK, everyone else does too. Except the people who just got emotionally vomited on. It's not pleasant, but if you keep in mind it isn't personal- it is emotional vomit, you won't feel as reactive to it.

Sometimes a sibling will call me and say " I just got puked on". and we know Mom had one of her episodes.

This is not to minimize the need to protect your children from her. I did not want my mother unsupervised with my children. She was emotionally abusive to me growing up and there was no way I would allow her to do that to my children. However, she was also invested in being a grandmother and when they were little, and another adult was present- me, or my father, she didn't act out with them. As adolescents though, she did try to get them alone with her. She has poor boundaries. What she was trying to do was get them to align with her "against" me and I put boundaries on that. She also enlisted me as her emotional caretaker when I was that age and I saw her being manipulative with my children and had to intervene.

This was me- intervening with my own children. If you get into a triangle with your husband and his MIL, you have a potential drama triangle.

From my own experience, I support your feelings to protect your children and do whatever you need to do to protect them. I would not leave an infant alone with my mother, but other mothers may be different. I do think though that you may not need to go NC right away, or even ever, if his mother is not a physical threat . I say this because it will take some time for your H to deal with his own family and if you do have time, taking the time for you to learn about BPD and how to deal with it may avoid some drama for your marriage.

I don't mean for you to tolerate emotional abuse or being emotionally puked on. I hope understanding how your H grew up will help you put that into perspective. Like any relationship with someone with BPD- there are tools on this board to help you deal with these episodes, so you don't have to just allow them- nor do you add to the drama. Seeing them for what they are can be a helpful first step.

Your H could pay a price for standing up to BPD mom.  When I did that, she enlisted my father as her rescuer, and he bonded with her. She put him in the position to choose- a relationship with me, or with her. He chose her. But the price of staying in a relationship was to not have boundaries on me, or my children and I could not do that. However, this did not happen until my kids were older. It was less of an issue when they were very young and mom had supervised visits. They also had a wonderful bond with my father, who is now deceased. Since mom wasn't an immediate or physical threat to the kids, I am glad they got to know their grandfather. Your H may be struggling with this decision and the cost of cutting off mom. He surely loves you and his children and if put in the position to choose- would choose you. However, if you feel it is safe for your children to give this some time before you put him in the position to face the potential of being cut off from his family of origin  ( because BPD mom will take them with her) it may be better for him to decide to face his mother on his own.

[snowglobe]

Hi Twin,

The behavior you noticed is typical and my BPD mother does it too. I call it the dry erase method. She rages, it's over and then everyone has to pretend it didn't happen ( it is erased). This is how I grew up. My father was also an enabler and we kids were expected to go along with it or he'd be angry at us too.


The problem with expecting your H to see things your way is that, he may not be able to at the moment because this is how he grew up. This is the way his family functioned during his formative years and it seems familiar to him. He also knows that after mom blows up, it's over for her, over for the family---- until the next time and that is the expected pattern.

When your children get a little older, you will see what happens if they eat something that doesn't agree with them. They will get a tummy ache, cry, feel terrible, and then throw up. After throwing up, they feel better and run off to play- leaving mom the pile of vomit- but you will be relieved that they are OK. A person with BPD can not manage uncomfortable feelings, and eventually they come out- in a big rage- but like the kid who just threw up, they feel fine and go on as if nothing happened. As far as they are concerned, if they feel OK, everyone else does too. Except the people who just got emotionally vomited on. It's not pleasant, but if you keep in mind it isn't personal- it is emotional vomit, you won't feel as reactive to it.

Sometimes a sibling will call me and say " I just got puked on". and we know Mom had one of her episodes.

This is not to minimize the need to protect your children from her. I did not want my mother unsupervised with my children. She was emotionally abusive to me growing up and there was no way I would allow her to do that to my children. However, she was also invested in being a grandmother and when they were little, and another adult was present- me, or my father, she didn't act out with them. As adolescents though, she did try to get them alone with her. She has poor boundaries. What she was trying to do was get them to align with her "against" me and I put boundaries on that. She also enlisted me as her emotional caretaker when I was that age and I saw her being manipulative with my children and had to intervene.

This was me- intervening with my own children. If you get into a triangle with your husband and his MIL, you have a potential drama triangle.

From my own experience, I support your feelings to protect your children and do whatever you need to do to protect them. I would not leave an infant alone with my mother, but other mothers may be different. I do think though that you may not need to go NC right away, or even ever, if his mother is not a physical threat . I say this because it will take some time for your H to deal with his own family and if you do have time, taking the time for you to learn about BPD and how to deal with it may avoid some drama for your marriage.

I don't mean for you to tolerate emotional abuse or being emotionally puked on. I hope understanding how your H grew up will help you put that into perspective. Like any relationship with someone with BPD- there are tools on this board to help you deal with these episodes, so you don't have to just allow them- nor do you add to the drama. Seeing them for what they are can be a helpful first step.

Your H could pay a price for standing up to BPD mom.  When I did that, she enlisted my father as her rescuer, and he bonded with her. She put him in the position to choose- a relationship with me, or with her. He chose her. But the price of staying in a relationship was to not have boundaries on me, or my children and I could not do that. However, this did not happen until my kids were older. It was less of an issue when they were very young and mom had supervised visits. They also had a wonderful bond with my father, who is now deceased. Since mom wasn't an immediate or physical threat to the kids, I am glad they got to know their grandfather. Your H may be struggling with this decision and the cost of cutting off mom. He surely loves you and his children and if put in the position to choose- would choose you. However, if you feel it is safe for your children to give this some time before you put him in the position to face the potential of being cut off from his family of origin  ( because BPD mom will take them with her) it may be better for him to decide to face his mother on his own.

At a risk of high jacking this post, NotWendy,
Can you elaborate a little more about setting the boundaries with your mother against aligning your children with her against you?
My mil calls my d14 in private, ask questions about us, some are very detailed and frankly non of her business, and then tells her that once she moves back to the city, not too far from where we live, she (my d14) should come on a bus to see her, she will give her pocket money (bribing) and tells her that she won’t tell me anything about coming. I have not addressed this with her yet, I’m so many levels, encouraging a minor to keep secrets from a parent is a wrong thing to do. She is highly manipulative and I wish I could go full nc with her. By the same token, just like @Twin I want to protect my children from emotional manipulation.

[Twincessmom22]

@Snowglobe
All good advice! I am scared about calling her out on her behavior though. His family all enable her and have told him multiple times if I would just "get over it and move on" it would be fine. So essentially if I call her out and she has a blow up they all blame me! I wish I would've seen this before marrying him... .or more importantly bringing babies into this world.

There's DEFINITELY a case of emotional incest going on, in her recent blow up she told him "You lost the best thing you ever had... .and that was ME!" etc. etc. I wanted to BARF. Our counselor and I have told him its not right now she feels about him but he denies it.

Sorry you're also going through this. You're a trooper! I will look into the DBT too.

@Notwendy
Ugh so much yes. We've made the analogy that she vomits acid, she feels better but it burns everyone else permanently. DH did stand up to her and you are right, his family tried convincing him it was my fault for not dropping it. I cannot believe how enabling they are. I'm the first person to stand up and say that I won't tolerate the behavior, and therefor viewed as the problem. She hasn't threatened me physically, or my girls (or else I would have a restraining order put in place in 2 seconds). She does, however, get physical with her husband (my FIL). I wouldn't trust her alone with my babies at all, and its doubtful if I'd trust her with them with my FIL. I'd have to wait until they were old enough to talk to me and tell me what's going on.

[No-One]

Hi Twincessmom2:
I'd like to join Panda39, NotWendy and Snowglobe in welcoming you to the Community! Congrats on the twins!  They must keep you busy, and I can understand how disturbing your MIL's behavior must be for you.

It has to be frustrating to have a husband who wants to put his mommy before you and the twins.  I can't imagine having a spouse who feels obligated to visit a family member so often, especially with such young infants.  It's understandable when there are extraordinary situations within a family (illness, disability, death, etc.), but not during ordinary times.

The boundary about how often your husband might visit MIL with the twins, might be a challenging one to negotiate.  Unfortunately, it sounds like his desire to please his mom it greater than his desire to please you. Even if MIL was the most wonderful MIL in the world, no wife wants to have a husband who puts his mom before them and insists on visiting mom every weekend.  It's bad enough that he would faithfully visit solo, so it has to be twice as bad for you to have him want to take such young twins with him.

Unfortunately, there will be extra drama, when each of the in-laws has some stressful life event.  If enabler FIL passes before MIL, the dynamics with your husband will likely be more intense, unless he gets on board with boundaries.

Before marriage, did you observe that you husband was way too close to his mom and was in contact/visiting to an extreme level?

Limited contact (LC), might be an easier choice for you (with your personal boundaries).  You husband has a right to talk to his mom and visit her.  How often the twins go, is definitely something you should have input on.  I couldn't imaging an adult married male, thinking he has to visit his mom every weekend.  I guess is shows that he is co-dependent and wants to please his mom.  It, also, seems extreme for him to want to take such young twins with him.  I'm thinking that most men wouldn't even consider bringing one infant to mom's house very often, so bringing two takes a son who is quite the "people pleaser" for mom.

You are wise to want to immediately get firm with boundaries.  Issues with MIL and your husband's family will only get worse over time, especially as just living life brings about stressful situations.

Boundaries are about things that you can enforce, so there is work you can do in regard to your own personal boundaries and how you communicate and react with both MIL and your husband.  Your biggest issue right now, might be with your husband and getting him to reach some middle ground between his duties as a husband versus a son.  

Although counseling isn't effective unless all parties are willing participants, you might consider some marriage counseling with your husband in order to reach some  resolution regarding to your MIL/his family versus your marriage.  He is either married to you, or to his mom.  You can't expect him to NOT talk to or visit him mom periodically, but to expect to take 4-month twins with him every weekend is excessive.

I'ts best to try and work it out among the two of you first, and try counseling if that isn't successful.  I think you are wise to make your best efforts to nip things in the bud right now, especially since it appears as if your husband seems to think he has unilateral command over where the twins go.  

[Panda39]

To my knowledge she is not formally diagnosed. She has been formally diagnosed with bipolar disorder but she hasn't been to a psychiatrist since I've been in my husbands life. I don't see how a psychiatrist couldn't see her BPD from a mile away, but I doubt she would admit that to anyone. He doesn't know much, he will admit she has a personality disorder but won't delve into it much further. My girls are 4.5 months old, our first/second. She lives 20 minutes, and we not only deal with her but her entire family who enable the behavior. I have seen BPD traits in her mom (DH's grandmother) and her sister. DH's dad is a typical enabler as well.

My biggest struggle right now is an intense urge to protect me and my children from her. I don't want her around them at all, and my husband gets mad at me for it. I want to go NC, he has said he doesn't care if I go NC but he is still going to talk to her and take the girls to see her. The biggest struggle in terms of her behavior is her pretending that everything is ok. She recently apologized for her behavior (she lashed out at me calling me a ___ty mother and wife, a control freak, a germaphobe, etc. etc.). She even told my husband she never wanted to see him again because he chose me over her. Since she apologized he's acting like its all ok. She wants to see us every weekend and he obliges.

I'm amazed you're awake with 4.5 month old twins  as a mom I totally relate to the momma bear desire to protect the kids.  I felt the very same way about my significant other's (SO's) daughters when it came to his undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (also diagnosed as bipolar) and how she treated them.

I wanted to share information on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail because my bet is this is being used on your DH and has been used as a tool to get him to do what his mother wants him to do, probably his whole life.  I think it might help to understand a little bit more about where your husband might be coming from to lessen some of your frustration with him. (You might want to read other posts on this board to see how complicated it can be for kids of a BPD parent).  I've seen the horrible guilt experienced by my SO's daughters.  I can look at it an know it's completely irrational, but they feel it.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I'd also like to suggest a couple of books... .maybe you can get DH to check one out... .


Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder [/u] by Randi Kreger 
 
and

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr, M.A

Panda39

[Harri]

Hi and welcome!

I want to direct you to a thread about dealing with BPD in-laws.  You may find some useful information in it.  Certainly the questions in the first post will help you think things through on where to go.

BPD in-laws: Experiences and coping strategies

Your H may be struggling with this decision and the cost of cutting off mom. He surely loves you and his children and if put in the position to choose- would choose you.

 Hopefully your husband will choose you, but that is not a guarantee.  It will depend on just how enmeshed he is with his mother.  I like the suggestion of couples counseling as overcoming decades of programming to please and appease is very very difficult.  It is good that he was able to stand up to his mother once, but the fact that he easily dismisses such behavior is concerning.  

You can do some reading on Family Systems theory by Bowen here:  https://thebowencenter.org/theory/  Bowen describes family systems where there is no or poor differentiation of self.  It makes for interesting reading and can help explain at least part of what is going on in your husbands family.

The good news is that things can and often do get better with using the tools we offer here combined with therapy and a commitment of both marriage partners to their relationship.  You being the healthy partner will be in a unique and unfortunately frustrating position but you can make all the difference in the world especially in the lives of your kids.  You are not alone and we can help support you here as well.

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe -

I am glad it was my mother and not my MIL ( who is great with the kids and does not have BPD) . If it was my MIL I would have issues with my H about trying to enforce a boundary on his family if he wasn't also in favor of it. However he is OK with however I want to deal with my mother.

My boundary when they were little was for her to not be alone with them. It was also easier that she didn't live near. She and my father would visit together. Although my father was an enabler - he basically raised me and I trusted him.

My mother doesn't have much of a mother instinct. It seemed the grandkids were like an accessory to her, and she would visit, take pictures but then get tired and so I didn't deal with her wanting to babysit or spend a lot of time with them.

By the time they became teens, my father's health began to fade and my mother's BPD behaviors escalated. This prompted me to enforce boundaries with her in general, and then, she began to try to enlist the kids as emotional caretakers. She also became angry at me over my new boundaries as well as voicing concerns over my father's health and I was not aware of this but I think she began to paint me black to him at the time, and she did later.

Since Dad was sick, the kids and I did visit a bit more often and this is what I began to observe. She would try to get one of them alone with her by enticing them with something- "I have a book you would like" and then they'd go off. Now, I don't think she would do something outrageous like sexually molest them but she also asks invasive questions like do you "like" anyone and push for details. Nosy details. Then she also likes to share "secrets" ( like a middle school girl does) and would try to tell them "secrets" about me and have them promise not to tell. She also tried that with my husband- trying to tell him things about me and promise not to tell me.

So, we didn't go NC. I wanted to see my father. I sat down and talked to the kids about BPD. They were old enough to understand the basics and by then, thought she was a bit strange. They were uncomfortable with her questions. So rather than me enforce all the boundaries, I reinforced the ones they had. I thought it was important to have them trust their own feelings and if grandma made them uncomfortable- they were allowed to keep a distance.

The boundaries- they were not to go off with her alone. We would visit in a group. She did not have their cell phone numbers ( and then she got them by asking others who had them) so if she called, they did not answer. We would call her as a group together from the house phone. They learned to deflect the nosy questions - by not answering them. If she asked them who they "liked" they said nobody. They only shared information that was not sensitive.

She started to ask them to do things for her. I told her I would do them. Then she said "she wanted the kids to do them" and I realized it wasn't about getting help but having them do it for her. So I basically did it instead.

The boundaries were not spoken to her, they were boundaries we put on our behavior with her. ( I think that's the best way to enforce boundaries) but it was apparent she was frustrated by not having as much access to them. She has accused me of "keeping her from her grandkids" .

[snowglobe]

My mother doesn't have much of a mother instinct. It seemed the grandkids were like an accessory to her, and she would visit, take pictures but then get tired and so I didn't deal with her wanting to babysit or spend a lot of time with them.
 She would try to get one of them alone with her by enticing them with something- "I have a book you would like" and then they'd go off. Now, I don't think she would do something outrageous like sexually molest them but she also asks invasive questions like do you "like" anyone and push for details. Nosy details. Then she also likes to share "secrets" ( like a middle school girl does) and would try to tell them "secrets" about me and have them promise not to tell. She also tried that with my husband- trying to tell him things about me and promise not to tell me.

The boundaries- they were not to go off with her alone. We would visit in a group. She did not have their cell phone numbers ( and then she got them by asking others who had them) so if she called, they did not answer. We would call her as a group together from the house phone. They learned to deflect the nosy questions - by not answering them. If she asked them who they "liked" they said nobody. They only shared information that was not sensitive.

She started to ask them to do things for her. I told her I would do them. Then she said "she wanted the kids to do them" and I realized it wasn't about getting help but having them do it for her. So I basically did it instead.

The boundaries were not spoken to her, they were boundaries we put on our behavior with her. ( I think that's the best way to enforce boundaries) but it was apparent she was frustrated by not having as much access to them. She has accused me of "keeping her from her grandkids" .

NotWendy, wow, you are writing about my mil, all the same behaviours, making my husband and d14 keep secrets from me, trying to pry them away in a middle of a function, only to come back with conspicuous and victorious look on her face; addressing me, now we have a secret and you don’t know about?. This is a woman in her 60s talking. She has a tendency to over share inappropriate details, such as the fact that she “climaxed during the childbirth of my husband, which is why he is her favourite son”?. Just wow... .I stood there, grasping to say something, trying to rid myself of a mental image. She is now moving close to the neighbor hood where we live, and will most defined try to establish her dominance in the dynamics. I’m actually thinking of moving to the same place my husband is currently working in, even for a few years, just to keep piece or it’s approximation in my own home. I’m keeping her away physically, bu not including or inviting her to the family functions, calling from a family phone, and keeping tabs on what she says to the children. She is definitely not interested in the children, as she refused to babysit them when they were younger, or now. She wasn’t to be in the center of the gossip, discussing looks and behaviours of people she comes into contact with. Person with no interests, achievements, education or skills. She is empty and bitter, feeding and trying to latch on to my life.

[Notwendy]

Oh that image of childbirth - yikes.

Eventually that can backfire. My mother has said some odd things like that and the look on my kids' faces- they were shocked- but it reflected her. They are cordial to her, but they know she has a mental illness. This is different from how I was raised and in my family we were expected to pretend she was normal. By my teens, I knew she was not, but my perceptions were invalidated.

I want my kids to "trust their gut" and feel confident in their boundaries- not just with my mother but with anyone they meet. If they feel uncomfortable around my mother, I don't deny their perceptions. They are polite to her, and her antics don't get to them, because they are allowed to have their boundaries. In contrast, I was not allowed, but didn't know why and as a teen I hated her. I told them the truth about her because I think it would have made a difference for my relationship with her if I knew at that age.

[Notwendy]

I want to emphasize that I think it is easier for me to impose boundaries on my own family than if it were my husband's.

I think it is difficult to get someone to see the dysfunction in their own family unless they arrive at realizing it on their own. I attend an ACA ( adult children of alcoholics- which includes dysfunction- one doesn't have to have an alcoholic parent to qualify).  While something dysfunctional brought the members there, we also talk about not really having a sense of "normal" and how some of the family dysfunction appeared normal to us.

In my family, my mother's behavior was obviously not normal, but what was considered normal was enabling and co-dependency. As a child, I was expected to do it, and so it seemed like the normal thing to do. This did cause issues for me later and in my marriage and I had to learn how not to be an enabler.

For Twincessmom- your H has been taught to tolerate and enable his mother probably since he was very young and it is how his family works. This is his "normal". Yet, we can't change another person. They have to want to change. It also takes a lot of personal work to learn new behaviors - and he has to do the work - you can't do it for him.

I was motivated to change due to issues with my family and in my marriage. I read in a book that we tend to choose partners that match us in some way with dysfunction. This was very puzzling to me as I didn't see BPD in my H's family. Compared to mine, his family seemed ideally normal. He also maintained that his childhood was fine and all was normal. Only when I looked at my own enabling behavior did I see the same behavior in his parents- his mother is an enabler-not for BPD but for other dysfunction. Fortunately his parents are not a serious threat to my children so I was not concerned about that, but for the purpose of improving our marriage, I wanted my H to see his family issues. He didn't- in fact, it backfired in the sense that if I pointed it out, he felt I was insulting his family.

Working on marital/family issues is a little like the Little Red Hen story. The person who seems the most aware and concerned tends to be the one who has to do the work. We can't change others- just ourselves- but due to family dynamics, if the person doing the work learns better relationship skills, the whole family benefits- gets the bread. Seems a bit unfair until the person who did the work realizes they also gained the skills.

Twincessmom- your H may not know what normal is, but by gaining some skills to relate to your MIL, you may be role modeling something new for him.

[Twincessmom22]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome, great information, and great advice! DH and I are going to counseling again tomorrow, I've told the counselor maybe we need to focus on how he can realize and start working through the emotional incest and enmeshment issues he has and maybe that will help him to set appropriate boundaries and not get drawn back in by her emotional blackmailing! Wish us luck

[Harri]

Best of luck to you and your husband tomorrow.  If you'd like, please share how things went.