In preparing myself for my upcoming meeting

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Opening a fresh thread on my prior thread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326317.0

which rivaled Encylopedia Britannica in verbiage (without volumes, chapter headings or indexes)

to hopefully document/discussion what happens when/if we meet and my mental preparedness for the same.

One thing I've learned is to think/do the exact opposite of my first reaction or at least to just let it wash over me and ponder/process. Ideally overnight.

So I realized I greatly over-reacted to her reply, mostly because I was seeing binary outcomes options; she ignored me or she ran into our bar in tears and jumped in my arms. I should really cancel my Netflix subscription.  As i re-read her reply 'Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to speak truthfully' I realized it was in fact not only a promising reply (just the fact she did at least) but totally in keeping with her email communication style which is alway somewhat ... .professional. Even when things were great I'd ask if she was pissed if I got an email from her and she told me she always emails like that it is never personal she is just careful on her emails.

That aside when I read her reply in context not just to my letter but the end of it which would have prompted her reaching out (or not):

"If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.  We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours"

it is a good reply. I've already made it clear with my 'ever' and 'whenever' that I am not pushing and she can reach out when and if she wants. And that in fact she can not reach out at all and she'll still be in my thoughts (this after clarifying how much she meant to me and how I should have made that clear despite my fears).

So she could have not replied at all. She could have waited 3 months. She could have said 'Thanks for the flowers' and NOTHING else and said it all like that. She could have said "I'll meet but I am seeing someone" since clearly my invitation is for us to talk and see if we can start again.

The 'truthfully' part threw me but I realize too; my letter to her might in fact be the most truthful thing I said to her, I came out fully and let her know how I felt about her, about how I knew basically I'd put my fear in front of appreciating her, and what things she did really meant to me. So it is entirely possible she is saying 'yes I want to speak to you when you speak like THAT'.

And given the content of my letter, that I had hurt her by not appreciating or acknowledging all she had given to me, it cannot be surprising that even if she wanted to and communicated like that she would not have gushed. I'm basically the one promising that I have changed and I will appreciate HER and not take HER for granted.

So a subdued and in fact almost immediate reply to me is, again, promising. Reconciliation? No idea. No idea what is in her mind except she seems (and seemed when I reached out) happy to hear from me and ready to talk, if conflicted about it. My letter I think helped. I have no idea what we will say, I'll have no idea how I'll feel when I actually see her. But I'm guessing there is something real here if we both still after two months have things to say to each other.

I could have gotten to this same place if when I got her reply I just read it, closed it, and let it sink in. I've got one of those little red devils on my shoulder with a quick-draw I need to squash or just learn to ignore. Working on it... .

Stay tuned as I am on her clock on this one... .

PS Does not hurt that I lost 20 lbs and am in kick-*** shape since last we spoke

[1stTimer]

Opening a fresh thread on my prior thread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326317.0

which rivaled Encylopedia Britannica in verbiage (without volumes, chapter headings or indexes)

to hopefully document/discussion what happens when/if we meet and my mental preparedness for the same.

One thing I've learned is to think/do the exact opposite of my first reaction or at least to just let it wash over me and ponder/process. Ideally overnight.

So I realized I greatly over-reacted to her reply, mostly because I was seeing binary outcomes options; she ignored me or she ran into our bar in tears and jumped in my arms. I should really cancel my Netflix subscription.  As i re-read her reply 'Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to speak truthfully' I realized it was in fact not only a promising reply (just the fact she did at least) but totally in keeping with her email communication style which is alway somewhat ... .professional. Even when things were great I'd ask if she was pissed if I got an email from her and she told me she always emails like that it is never personal she is just careful on her emails.

That aside when I read her reply in context not just to my letter but the end of it which would have prompted her reaching out (or not):

"If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.  We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours"

it is a good reply. I've already made it clear with my 'ever' and 'whenever' that I am not pushing and she can reach out when and if she wants. And that in fact she can not reach out at all and she'll still be in my thoughts (this after clarifying how much she meant to me and how I should have made that clear despite my fears).

So she could have not replied at all. She could have waited 3 months. She could have said 'Thanks for the flowers' and NOTHING else and said it all like that. She could have said "I'll meet but I am seeing someone" since clearly my invitation is for us to talk and see if we can start again.

The 'truthfully' part threw me but I realize too; my letter to her might in fact be the most truthful thing I said to her, I came out fully and let her know how I felt about her, about how I knew basically I'd put my fear in front of appreciating her, and what things she did really meant to me. So it is entirely possible she is saying 'yes I want to speak to you when you speak like THAT'.

And given the content of my letter, that I had hurt her by not appreciating or acknowledging all she had given to me, it cannot be surprising that even if she wanted to and communicated like that she would not have gushed. I'm basically the one promising that I have changed and I will appreciate HER and not take HER for granted.

So a subdued and in fact almost immediate reply to me is, again, promising. Reconciliation? No idea. No idea what is in her mind except she seems (and seemed when I reached out) happy to hear from me and ready to talk, if conflicted about it. My letter I think helped. I have no idea what we will say, I'll have no idea how I'll feel when I actually see her. But I'm guessing there is something real here if we both still after two months have things to say to each other.

I could have gotten to this same place if when I got her reply I just read it, closed it, and let it sink in. I've got one of those little red devils on my shoulder with a quick-draw I need to squash or just learn to ignore. Working on it... .

Stay tuned as I am on her clock on this one... .

PS Does not hurt that I lost 20 lbs and am in kick-*** shape since last we spoke

[pearlsw]

Hey 1stT,

That's great that you are keeping in shape! Being healthy is a nice look on anyone!

Just keep making the best of waiting and, as hard as it is, just take it easy as you do wait. This could go in any number of ways. Best use of time now is to work on slowing your reaction times down and setting the expectation bar rather low.

I try to put myself into the shoes of someone who hasn't heard from someone they once loved/dated for two months. She never contacted you in that time? And you either? Total silence both ways for two months?

take care, pearl.

[1stTimer]

I try to put myself into the shoes of someone who hasn't heard from someone they once loved/dated for two months. She never contacted you in that time? And you either? Total silence both ways for two months?

Well again to be fair it was an explosive day where I stormed out saying not nice things after she pulled a whopper preceded by about two weeks of whirlwind stuff leading there. Also keeping in mind the alternative to the 'split' then was what we (she'd) described the night before; us in our new bed, looking for a place to live when we were ready, spending every Saturday exploring the city, meeting her family, figuring out finances and roles, etc. So it wasn't a dated/loved broke up it was an insane two week parabola that landed on a mine. It was quite quite raw I'm guessing even more so for her than me and as you KNOW it was raw for me.

That said. I contacted her about a month later when I realized I wasn't angry or needing answers I was crushed needing her an amazed by it. Sent her a nice letter you may or may not have read which as nice as it was still ended with 'will always remember you for opening my heart' aka repeated what I said in anger on the way out; my heart is open and I'm going to go date with it thank you.

She replied similarly to this: Thank you for the nice note. I hope you've been well.

I did not realize at the time that was something of an invitation given that my letter basically said 'goodbye, I wish it had worked, maybe in another reality, I hope you get the love you want and I thank you for opening my heart'. I missed the fact that while she had not reciprocated my big-gesture feelings (I do NOT think she knows how in written language) she had also not bitten on goodbye ('and best of luck to you too bye'. Just as now I was looking for some BIG reply to give me the green light not realizing she'd been giving me the GREEN LIGHT for over a year and I'd ignored or snubbed it. So downgraded to a yellow

So I came here and processed and this flower/card thing is basically a month later. So yeah no contact except me to her three times (letter, text, flowers) to which she replied immediatly and nicely each time but I did make sure that she knew how I felt and that I missed her a lot (I told her I had not realized what it did to my hear to see her name pop-up on my phone).

Part of my reason for coming here was I thought this might be BPD Discard (she didn't really do the rest) as I could not FATHOM how this girl that was so nuts about me for 18 months and just HAD me commit to everything she asked for, future included, could explode it the next day and never contact me again.

Clearly you can see from my thread(s) here how that could be and now I can as well. Thuseth my letter

In any event you can also see each time I did reach out she replied to some degree invitingly or happy (the nice letter, the walking in part text, her invite to meet me, her reply to the letter) in a guarded way.

I still tihnk if after two months of not talking/speaking/seeing we are both feeling something (perhaps a lot) there is something.

And on expectations yes and no; to be honest I would hope that given my letter and closing that if she were seeing someone she'd have made that clear before meeting or not meet. The ending is a clear 'I would like to reconnect with you and try again". So either don't reply or reply with a caveat IF that is the case. If there is nothing left to us to explore that is one thing but I think that would be a bit cruel for my taste. Again, little devil on my shoulder.

[1stTimer]

setting the expectation bar rather low. 

Easier said than done. I mean I didn't go through all this, spend days writing the note and then wait for a 'ok meet now! text from her just so she can tell me she never loved me, or I was an idiot she just wanted me to know, or that she is in love. What would the point be for me or her? Not saying I'm not prepared for those just saying it would be both pointless and cruel. Any 'apology' she might thinks she deserves is in that letter (again I was still and all QUITE good to her) so there would be no reason to get my hopes up and gut me. But... you never know.

The worrisome part for me is this; her reply after my replying to her invitaiton to meet her wsa 'lots happening. can't make firm plans' which just seemed like a 'let's take a giant step back here I might have moved to fast'. But her reply to the email was something about 'can I reach to see if you are available an hour or so before I think would work for me'. again, I know, little devil, but that with the other message doesn't speak to busy at work it sounds like she has "someone" going on she prioritizes. I get it this is just my reactive mind speaking but, again, I'd really not be happy if the response to those flowers and that message and that invitation at the end was to keep me on call on an hours notice at her schedule just so she can say "I'm seeing somoene". Are you with me here that would suck?

[1stTimer]

I try to put myself into the shoes of someone who hasn't heard from someone they once loved/dated for two months.

Curious what you get when you are in those shoes Pearl since you did say you dated a lot. To put in context, assuming this girl was telling the truth, you'd have to do so with the or a person who was almost 'it'; she has not had a serious relationship/bf in ten YEARS and I was apparently going to be huge news for the entire extended family. So I'm curious where you get (again assuming she is not BPD Full of It) when you imagine this after an explosive end with the man or one of the men you thought you were going to marry/end-up with/love-of-life (the whole two months thing and him finally reaching out)? I know you and she are quite different but it would be interesting to know if a) you'd connect after that letter just to meet him and tell him you wern't available to him :| or b) if that were not the case, what you'd be looking for from him? Words, actions, etc? Again I know women aren't one big monolith but trying to prepare myself beyond just 'no expectations' and listening. I know that is a great start though

[once removed]

the signs have been mostly good 1stTimer.

she responded positively to your original text, which compared her to a beautiful day. she signaled that shes open to talk.

she backed off a bit. she didnt blow anything up or cancel or shut you down or change her mind. she may have been busy, she may have had outside pressures (its possible that her therapist advised her to cool her jets, and that would have been good advice. if you were in her position, id have given you the same advice).

you threw the hail mary. she took a little bit more of a step toward meeting.

the professional reply is just good old fashioned BIFF. i use it. id have probably advised someone in her situation to use it.

I thought this might be BPD Discard
... .
(again assuming she is not BPD Full of It)

dont let this stuff trip you up 1stTimer. "the BPD discard", and a lot of the stuff on the internet generalizes and creates urban legends that distort the big picture (my ex left me while she was lining up another relationship. common story here, right? add in the fact that i emotionally and physically left the relationship and neglected her, the fact that we were both too weak to leave in a healthy functional way, and you end up with a great big "duh".) the tools work with everyone. human nature still applies to BPD.

[1stTimer]

the professional reply is just good old fashioned BIFF. i use it. id have probably advised someone in her situation to use it.

I'll bite. BIFF?

I am sure she consults her therapist and I believe even gets his feedback on reply. I said the first reply (the 'goodbye love letter' a month back) that took two days it seemed almost professionally crafted.  Almost all of her replies to me as we had our spin-out had that flavor; while mine were reactive spin outs hers were meticulous. I was impressed even then. So someone clearly taught her how to, in emails at least, to communicate in an effective way. Maybe Skip?   Even after I asked her to be 'my one and only' she emailed very ... .professionally... .the next day 'I'd like to meet and discuss a few times are you able to meet per chance?' I figured she was changing her mind, but she had just come from her therapist who she ran to the next day to confirm she had heard right and when I confirmed jumped in my arms in practically tears. I'm guessing she is as reactive as me to things if not more and has learned from him how to keep it all in check.

I agree the signs have all been mostly good. I just get my own reactive self and (without revising the whole 6 page spew from last thread) am in a very loss-adverse state now.

dont let this stuff trip you up 1stTimer. "the BPD discard", and a lot of the stuff on the internet generalizes and creates urban legends that distort the big picture (my ex left me while she was lining up another relationship. common story here, right? add in the fact that i emotionally and physically left the relationship and neglected her, the fact that we were both too weak to leave in a healthy functional way, and you end up with a great big "duh".) the tools work with everyone. human nature still applies to BPD.

Nothing about it really seems BPD or BPD Discard to me in fact, but I did come here thinking that when I had not yet taken a look at the great big duh yet.

If ok I'll keep posting here as I wrestle with the wait and then report back if/when she has that hour available for me. I'll just keep reminding myself she replied to the end of that letter

[once removed]

I'll bite. BIFF?

BIFF=Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

very professional. very business like. BIFF never JADES. it is a favorite of mine and one of the easier to master.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0

If ok I'll keep posting here as I wrestle with the wait and then report back if/when she has that hour available for me. I'll just keep reminding myself she replied to the end of that letter

let it fly. id be anxious too. remember, her not jumping straight into this and taking her time is good, healthy strategy. theres nothing bad implied by it.

[Skip]

I think the best preparation is to work on applying empathy toward seeing her side of the relationship during the time you were together. Do the postmortem with us. Try to understand her more. This is what will help you going forward.

Trying to read her reaction to the letter is much harder as you have been apart so long. There is danger in holding on to highly specific narratives right now. One, they set you up for disappointment and, two, they will block your ability to hear her.  For example, you locked on to a very Hollywood view of your letter, and with that narrative in mind, you misread her response and went off on a negative emotional tangent - you triggered. You triggered in the relationship. The tighter you make your expectations, the less available you are as a human to hear her, be in her world. She could meet you with a highly cautious optimism (which is still good), and your face and body language would read very negative, you might even go off on her. You are talking about preparing yourself for the worst. It might be better to let go of the narrative of sunset, champagne, and back to where you were.  

She opted out of where you were.  Reconnecting will be better if it is a new beginning, not a litigation of and return to the past.

But let's break this down. Three questions:

1. First, what is empathy?

2. Second, what level are you operating at?

• Healthy  
• Mild impairment (1)
• Impaired (2)  
• Very Impaired (3)  
• Extreme Impairment (4)

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels
 

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.
 
Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent in awareness of effect of own behavior on others.
 
Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.
 
Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.
 
Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.[/size][/color]

3. How might she view your birthday night? What are two possible ways she remembers that night? You likely got direct and indirect feedback then and after. What can you say?

[1stTimer]

BIFF=Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

very professional. very business like. BIFF never JADES. it is a favorite of mine and one of the easier to master.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0

Gods I need to tattoo that on my knuckles. Is that a business acronym or a psychiatric one? I just looked it up it is a technique to deal with High Conflict People. Man did I become the high conflict person here? I'm thinking that may be so. But yes she seems to have learned that and well. Even when I sent my tootally reactive we are over letter way back her reply was something like "I am sorry if I hurt or offended you. I did not mean to. I ABC because of XYZ. If you would like to talk in person I would like to as well. I will respect your decision'. Dude was I managed?

let it fly. id be anxious too. remember, her not jumping straight into this and taking her time is good, healthy strategy. theres nothing bad implied by it.

Well good to know she has people in her corner then. Maybe there is hope since clearly there is something between us and perhaps between Skip/Pearl/Gem/OnceRemoved on the one side and her $500 an hour therapist on the other we have a chance

[once removed]

ill keep stressing this: the tools work with everyone

Man did I become the high conflict person here?

we can all be high conflict, or immature, or needy, or... .

the communication techniques arent always about the other person. for example, if i know i need to say no, but im having a hard time doing it, or if im really anxious about the circumstances (whatever is going on) thats when i really lean on BIFF.

having a partner that knows these techniques and communicates in general is a good thing.

Well good to know she has people in her corner then. Maybe there is hope since clearly there is something between us and perhaps between Skip/Pearl/Gem/OnceRemoved on the one side and her $500 an hour therapist on the other we have a chance

good triangulation can help stabilize things. weve all been there.

[1stTimer]

I think the best preparation is to work on applying empathy toward seeing her side of the relationship during the time you were together. Do the postmortem with us. Try to understand her more. This is what will help you going forward.

I have tried, not sure how much more I could do. I've even tried to 'rewind' back to when we met and she'd keep texting me I should ask her out. I've tried to remember specific instances where I shut her down and to understand if possible how that *could* have felt and how I could have handled it differently keeping my boundaries intact.

I've definitely found a theme to how she experienced it just using a few comments she made the last few days (where I *believe* she was telling herself I was not in fact really committed and *possibly* only doing so to keep her from sleeping with other people, not true in fact):

- I didn't think you even liked it when I sat in your lap and kissed you during that dinner (in fact I remember my eyes rolling in my head it felt so good she did she never knew that though)

- I'm surprised you even talk to your friends about me

- You never kiss me first I always am the one to initiate kissing you

- I'm still trying to get used to the way you are treating me. I love it, I love the communication and the attention but I'm trying to believe it.

- I still can't believe you asked me to be 'your one and only' so I need you to ask me again officially

Etc. Now I can't tell you how she felt during the whole thing but those comments have to give me some really good idea. It is one reason I wrote the letter/book I did. And I think I set a good stage with that the 'love letter' I sent a month ago. She was probably shocked to hear how much I missed her.

The tighter you make your expectations, the less available you are as a human to hear her, be in her world.

I like that Skip, it is very easy to hold on to and get.

She opted out of where you were.  Reconnecting will be better if it is a new beginning, not a litigation of and return to the past.

I get that, I tried to even convey it in my letter.

1. First, what is empathy?

Agreeing with other people's wrong-headed point of view?

Barring that being able to listen, understand, care about and validate someone else's feelings and point of view and needs entirely separated from your own viewpoints/needs/outlook/agenda?

2. Second, what level are you operating at?

I am going to say 1.2 sometimes straying to 1.5. The thing is I "empathize" as in really care about other people, their happiness, even their position, but I do much better when I can step back and wait instead of responding. My initial response is not empathetic for sure. Pear's advice to slow down is a good one so I can tap into that part of myself into the reactive/fear-of-loss part that has manifested during the last decade.
 

3. How might she view your birthday night? What are two possible ways she remembers that night? You likely got direct and indirect feedback then and after. What can you say?

I'm not sure she had any negative views of it at all. She had as nice a time as I did as far as I could tell. It seemed to me at least to be pretty magical. It was last minute as she'd just found out it was my birthday and no one was celebrating it so she got cake and wine at this amazing place she takes care of and we just talked and fed each other cake and wine and kissed in this magical quiet place. But. At some point as we sat and sort of talked/whispered she asked me if when I made it I'd buy her a place in NY for us to live in. Kabosh Skip. Not only too fast but it triggered right into the fact I'd lost my last serious GF (she knew this) when I lost my career/money. I didn't yell or get nasty or say much of anything but it put big screeching halt signs-up.

If anything I'd think she didn't get what she hoped after. I don't just mean flowers or thanks but she'd hoped that would "start us" (the whole every week thing) but I ... .dug my heels in... .as it scared me to a degree and as mentioned was still in the whole suicidal-mother-gotta-launch-business mode. I also did not reciprocate on her birthday. So the night? I think she loved. Getting appreciation, reciprocation, affection or a relationship? Not so much.

I tried to make this the theme of my letter; that I knew I had put my fear in front of giving her the appreciation/affection/etc she deserved and more so that I held back not because I didn't feel it but because of my 'fear'.

She spent a good deal of effort trying to move us to another level; inviting me to museums, tea, family events. I declined. again: did not see where I had time, money or emotional energy.

As to your 'what can you say?' I'm not falling for that trick question again  I can say 'that must have hurt when I didn't follow-through, tell me more'.

[1stTimer]

BIFF=Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

I like this the more I consider it especially in context to moi. I somehow (as you might have noticed   ) think the more I say or explain the better.  I'm digging on how Brief might be the way to go especially in treacherous waters. You guys are great you should start a website or forum or something.

[once removed]

I somehow (as you might have noticed   ) think the more I say or explain the better. 

ive been there. i hate feeling misunderstood and it prompts me to JADE or get into circular conversations. which at the end of the day is drama, not peaceful, or a good skill. when i got that, i could let it go, or shift in a healthier direction... .and i saw results.

reading this (not unique to a relationship with someone with BPD) planted the initial seeds for me.

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback.

[1stTimer]

Great piece, thank you. I'll take it to heart. I should make my middle name Jade (or get rid of my middle name Jade). I once read some quote about Erasmus (I think) that paraphrases something like 'as with most rational men, he put far too much stock in rational discourse with others and suffered greatly for it'. Not exactly the same thing, but thinking that logic, 'facts', explaining will change everything (or anything).

I start to see more and more how her communications all embodied this. Even one letter she replied to me about something I was unhappy with (reactive letter to her) was calm while not accepting responsibility but telling she was 'sorry you feel that way' and concluded with 'Have a great day'.  I thought at the time 'sorry you feel that way' was a blithe abdication of responsibility AND the 'have a great day' was a 'and piss off'. Yet the more I look at this the more I see she was in fact likely validating me and trying to end on a good note. No wonder she got mad when in response I returned her keys. Jeez man. I have been an utter jerk. She is likely on some board talking about HER exbfBPD, me :|

[isilme]

BIFF=Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

very professional. very business like. BIFF never JADES. it is a favorite of mine and one of the easier to master.

Lol, so there's a term for it, and it corresponds to my favorite movie.  Good.
Yes.  When communicating with H in writing, I try to keep if BIFF.  Too much emotional content even about where to eat dinner can trigger him, be misread, and he won't get the actual point if I "fluff" it up.  We are not a sappy-sentiment texting couple.  It's not in his make up, and does not benefit me in communicating with him.

I agree with Skip that looking a the past experiences and doing a 'post-mortem" is a good idea to help you in moving forward with empathy.  Things that hurt me in the moment, I can often understand better and be better prepared for the next time.  Because BPD means there will be a next time.  It just doesn't have to be as bad or last as long. 

JADEing is my biggest issue.  I still want to explain away the rage/anger/hurt he is trying to pin on me.  It just makes it worse.  we are taught even as small children that understanding fixes all conflict.  This is only true if that conflict is rooted in non-emotional ideas.  Once emotions are front and center, rationality takes a backseat. 

Can other give advice on alternatives to JADE in the moment, if there are any besides disengage? 

[1stTimer]

she backed off a bit. she didnt blow anything up or cancel or shut you down or change her mind. she may have been busy, she may have had outside pressures (its possible that her therapist advised her to cool her jets, and that would have been good advice. if you were in her position, id have given you the same advice).

The one other thing that is reassuring to me Once about her likely having her therapist coaching her through this (besides what it says about how much I matter) is that I'd imagine he (not being sexist I know it is a he) would likely tell her to manage expectations if she were seeing someone to avoid any surprise/nastiness in person (I'd gather). I know I know this is one of my triggers on all this but again 'loss' is the theme of pretty much the entire 21st Century (almost fiance, business, money, career, city I loved, father, relationships with 2-3 family members, independence, almost mother, niece moving 3000 miles away, etc etc) I'm very much triggered by it's potential. Would you agree that likely if that is the scenario (new person) that if her therapist was advising her on reaching out/meeting especially in regards to the letter I sent that it would be better to get that out of the way prior? "Look happy to talk but just know ahead of time I am seeing someone"? To manage my clear expectations?

[once removed]

in general yes id agree with you. your intentions were clearly romantic, up front, like i said, comparing her to a beautiful day for example. if i were seeing someone i wouldnt respond to that with "talk soon?" unless i really wanted to let you have it and tell you how terrible you are. in which case id probably just do it by text or over the phone.

[1stTimer]

in general yes id agree with you. your intentions were clearly romantic, up front, like i said, comparing her to a beautiful day for example. if i were seeing someone i wouldnt respond to that with "talk soon?" unless i really wanted to let you have it and tell you how terrible you are. in which case id probably just do it by text or over the phone.

Well even more than the romantic beautiful day text was the ending of the poem/note she replied to which is as crystal clear as I could be which I wrapped up thusly:

"If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.  We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours"

It is that she replied to "Thank you for the thoughtful note and flowers. I am open to talk truthfully". So I simply can't imagine, which doesn't mean it can't be true (as I've learned), that my meaning/desire was not clear and any "BIFF" would not clarify some 'I do want to talk but there is someone in my life already' or something. I left the door for her to ignore me, wait until she was ready, never contact me but I think it is pretty crystal clear I mean reach out if you want to explore/discuss reconnecting. And she reached out most likely a couple hours tops after getting the flowers and the note/poem/book. So yeah unless she has some serious telling off to do (nothing I've earned I promise you) or wants to rub my face in something I'd guess she is open at least to meeting/talking in context to my offer not just 'hey I never really wanted a relationship just thought you should know' or 'hey I'm with someone else and I'm happy'

[Harley Quinn]

Hey 1st,

If you let go of your imagined outcomes, how would that feel for you?  Can you sit with those feelings and ride it out so that you are open verbally and open minded to what she has to say when you meet?  What are the predictions doing for your emotional state?  What else can you do to replicate that?

Love and light x

[1stTimer]

If you let go of your imagined outcomes, how would that feel for you?  Can you sit with those feelings and ride it out so that you are open verbally and open minded to what she has to say when you meet?  What are the predictions doing for your emotional state?  What else can you do to replicate that?

Not really :| I mean I can be open minded to what she has to say. But what does 'open minded' mean? Does it mean if she went through all of this and replied to that text and that letter, especially the invitation at the end to meet me to tell me she is seeing someone or was never interested in a relationship despite what she said that I am "open" to hearing it. Why would I be? Despite any insights I've had into my behavior, let us not forget I came here because she handled the the last day deplorably and hurt me greatly and didn't take responsibility for it or follow-up after to explain/apologize for running after the stupendous pressure put on me to commit.

I've done a ton of work to understand her and my effect on her. That letter took a ton of time and emotion and courage to right. If in the interim she has done no work except to not look back and start a new relationship, and her response to my text and letter it to reach out to MEET just so she can tell me that is will only be to finish the coup de grace she started. So why would I be "open" to hearing it. Thanks for sharing, thanks for taking the time to meet me in person to explain you in fact DON'T want anything I said in the letter? So I'm not open to that at all. It would be cruel. I have stepped outside of my original assessment, that she set me up just to be able to say *I* don't want a relationship with *you*!" and I've made a very generous to her and self-critical assessment of an alternative to what happened. Which in fact STILL does not explain the insistence on the official date, the future-bomb and the next day 'nice guy don't want a relationship'. That reality has not changed. So do you really think (and not trying to invalidate your suggestion here sorry I'm really ASKING) that given how this ended and given the work I did to get here and given the honesty and generosity of that letter that replying to it to just basically do what she did again is something I am open to?

I'll hear her out of that is what she says. But I don't have to 'empathize' or 'validate' her at that point. I don't have to validate such utter selfish cruelty.  There may or may not have been many possible reasons she asked me to meet the moment i texted her my romantic text (maybe it didn't read that way to her). There is only one reason to reply to that letter and the invite at the end. Seriously man, re-read that last paragraph and ask yourself if any sane kind loving person who loves or loved someone would reach out to meet for any reason except for what the invitation clearly was for. It is beyond my comprehension that anyone could or would.

My predictions aren't doing great things for my emotional state to be sure but you know what? I do NOT want to get caught by surprise by her as I have been several times and most notably the last time we met. And I think a woman who was capable of insisting on the Official Ask Week followed by the Official Night followed by the Future Bomb Day followed by the 'You're a nice guy but" is fully capable of responding to that letter and that invitation simply to tell me she's NOT available which she could easily have done to the letter; not answered (the letter allowed for that), waited a year and returned to me (the letter allowed for that), or simply said "I can't have that man back in my life I have a new man" etc etc.

I get what you are asking, perhaps I am not 'evolved' enough to do what you ask. But I always get back to the fact that as much work as I've done to empathize, understand, take ownership and try to communicate from that point I'm not willing to just accept or be open to anything she has to say or do. Either in a meeting or in a relationship.

[Skip]

So I'm not open to that at all. It would be cruel. I have stepped outside of my original assessment, that she set me up just to be able to say *I* don't want a relationship with *you*!" and I've made a very generous to her and self-critical assessment of an alternative to what happened. Which in fact STILL does not explain the insistence on the official date, the future-bomb and the next day 'nice... .

1T, I think HQ is telling you that if you meet her in your current frame of mind, the chances that this will end well are very slim... .the chances for failure are very high.

You have made progress, but you are significantly over-valuing the good you have done, under estimating the damage that has been, and expecting unrealistic re-connection pathway.

When reality hits, its not going to match your expectations, and you are going to react badly... .and probably be sorry after the fact.

You have to decide if you want members here to help you get in a better place - or if you just want to go on the path you are on. We'll support you either way.

This is not about the blame - its about how to court a women in a difficult situation that you are in.

[1stTimer]

Hi Skip, I understand my frame of mind will affect my body language and openess when I meet. I am open to meet her fully as I was in the letter I sent. However. I would be an utter fool given the reality of what happened to not be worried about the possibility that I mentioned. I keep coming back to this; it is not just I who did damage. It is not just I who need to do 'good' to repair the relationship if it can be. And it is not unrealistic to thing/expect given the facts on the ground that the reach out is for any other reason to do just that.

Will my arms be crossed and will I snap/yell if she is not friendly, happy, open, if she shows up with a ring on her finger? No I will not. I've learned enough here to be calm and accepting and to be open to listening. This simply does not and cannot change the fact that meeting me given everything to simply tell me she is not available is utter and complete BS. I did NOT do anything to deserve that. My letter is entirely one-sided as it is meant to be. I didn't call her on any behavior or blame her for any of mine. It was an olive branch and as with all olive branches is meant to offer the other party the opportunity to meet with arms down and accept their own role as well.

You keep saying I'm here to court; I'm telling you I am NOT. When and if this woman shows me that she deserves to be courted by me I will. I'm not here to say whatever you do or did or say or said is ok I'm validating and empathizing and understanding and nope no need to every discuss or mention anything you did or any of my fears or concerns here is a nice dinner and here is a rose and walk you home. I don't know why she did what I did. She might not tell me. She might tell me she never wanted it and I was wrong. She might tell me she met some guy that night. She might tell me she want back to her ex the day she asked me to make the Grand Gesture. I have no idea. You don't think those effect whether I want to court her or not? Whether I want HER or not? I have not decided I want her. I have decided I cared for her far more than I knew and wasn't fair to her in appreciating her regardless of where I was in my life. She knows that now. She might want to hear more, to confirm more.

I'm open Skip. I don't sound it here because I don't agree that even after getting where I've gotten I have to accept anything that either was dished out or might be.

IF she meets me and tells me bla bla with someone else I'll tell her I'm happy for her she deserves it. I'll mean THAT. I'll be gracious and may even accept or offer or agree to maintain a friendship. But it will always be a friendship for me tainted by the fact that she a) did what she did and b) reached out and replied simply to meet and tell me that.

This is an entire scenario we/I are writing here. You seem to be very much not in the camp that she likely replied initially and to the letter because she too wants to talk and reconcile. That is fine. I find it by far the likeliest scenario given how she acted for 1 1/2 years and how she has acted since and the content of what i reached out with. I could be utterly wrong as I have before.

I can only repeat; if this were JUST a case of closed off guy didn't show appreciation and courtship to great girl who got hurt by the unrequited love and needs to make amends I'd go in accepting fully whatever happened. It is not. There was a ton of invalidation and lack of empathy and seriously messed up and hugely hurtful behavior dealt out on her side that I didn't get a text or card or flowers about.

You think that my acknowledging or knowing this somehow will taint my meeting? It will not. I didn't simply erase that from my mind anymore than she, as much as she may be responding to my gestures, erased it from hers. So when she meets me she is not just meeting me 'with no attachment' and telling her self whatever 1stTimer did or said in the past I need to own how I treated him and validate and empathize is she?

I'm not sure why I can't hold both realities when I meet her; open to hearing what she has to say. Open to my newfound insights into my behavior and the pain I likely caused. Open to sharing that. Open to hearing what she feels and felt and why she is here. I can listen, validate, empathize.  This simply can't change the human realities of a) hoping and b) fear (of unexpected behavior from a woman who has shown her self to be quite capable of it) and c) of not accepting behaviors as ok to me in terms of having in my life as much as I may validate and empathize they are real to the other person. Does validation require us to accept when someone else cheats on us or lies to us takes OUR feelings and needs and live for granted? It does not.

We'll see if this woman is courted or not. I am not in courtship stage. I am in 'open to court you' stage. If she wants that, and there is the good likelihood of that being the case given the facts on the ground, then she has work to do too don't you think?

I laid my sword on the ground and put my hands by my side. I already laid my hands by my side once for this woman and got kicked in the... .everything. So I'm not smelting my sword into a ring and a crown for her just yet.

[1stTimer]

aluing the good you have done, under estimating the damage that has been, and expecting unrealistic re-connection pathway.

When reality hits, its not going to match your expectations, and you are going to react badly... .and probably be sorry after the fact.

To be clear; I am not unrealistic enough to believe that if she has replied for the same reasons I reached out she is going to show up and jump in my arms. Or that we will take for 5 minutes, and we'll both have moved and and kiss and walk out of the park/bar into the sunset and go back to er place and pick-up where we left off. I know there is no Hollywood here. I understand that the best case is likely that we have a lot to talk about and work out openely, and if this works out we likely have to agree to meet again and talk again and slowly rebuild (thus my entire 'tea for two and see what we have when both our hearts are open'. I don't think this is going to be an 'and scene! roll credits'. I think that clearly there is something here if we both want to meet over two months later. I mean we made love ONCE. We weren't married, no kids, no years long history, no home together, we didn't live together, we woke up in the same bed ONCE. We dated unofficially for 4 months and officially for 36 hours yet 71 days later we both want to meet.

I really get Skip I need to continue what I said and showed in my letter in person and walk the walk. So don't worry I'm not planning on showing up expecting hollywood or snapping or shutting down if I get a reply/response/behavior I'd prefer not to get. She'll get the enlightened me which will not change that I too get to choose who I want in my life and what I am willing to accept in my life and what I expect from people in my life. This isn't a free pass. It's just a pass.

[Skip]

I understand that the best case is likely that we have a lot to talk about and work out openly, and if this works out we likely have to agree to meet again and talk again and slowly rebuild... .

I hope to hear what others think... .

To me, I'm not sure this is the best case... .diving back in where you left off to relitigate something that did not go well the first time... .with the added complexities of whatever happened over the last 8 weeks, offline... .this is a huge landmine field. One or both of you will trigger and it will done for good.

I think a win would be to meet, enjoy each others company, have an interesting safe conversation on non-relationship stuff, look at each other and remember what you liked about each other. She will want to say something (truth)... . let her say it with a complete open mind and be able to listen and take it on board without JADE, anger, etc. Say you need time to absorb it all and agree to get together to talk about it more. End on something light fun.

This will give everyone time to absorb, start the recalibration. Baby steps.

Expect that there will be triggers throw your way and its important not to freak out. Let her be heard. Somethings may be overstated and if you get together again, she will likely dial them down. But be prepared to hear some hard truth and not let it sink the re connection efforts.

Possible triggers?

One fancy letter doesn't change 18 months of actions... .
It's always all about you... .
Where were the flowers when my dog died... .
I have been dating casually. I met a guy who is nice. I'm not very sure about him but I don't want to just dump him based on one letter... .
I had too much to drink and slept with my boss again... .
You need to apologize and explain why... .
Your narrative of our past is distorted... .
I don't know what I want... .
I don't know what I feel... .

... .We really see life differently. I just don't know.

None of these are unusual for a meetup like this and none of these need to be deal breakers... .couples have recovered from far far worse... .but someone has to have vision and strength... .that tends to rest with the male.

It could be easier than this, but this is what you need be prepared for (getting back to your thread title).

You keep saying I'm here to court; I'm telling you I am NOT. When and if this woman shows me that she deserves to be courted by me I will. I'm not here to say whatever you do or did or say or said is ok... .

If you don't want to court her back, it's not likely to happen or stick if it does get a restart.

But, 1T, this is your call, 100%. We are here to give you the best advice we have. We have seen a lot of members have this meeting over the years. Entitlements, expectations, seeking apologies/soothing, and doing what didn't work before are the common failure tactics. But I could be completely wrong when it comes to you and her.

I need to step away and let you work with others (I have obligations this weekend) let's see what others say... .

[1stTimer]

Skip I get all of this I do. I slept with my boss or had a fling with me ex etc? I'm not worried about some sex.

I'm worried that I have contributed to whitewashing the entire history of 'us'. I don't want to really rehash anything. I told you for the most part (except venting here) I've moved past needing to know what or why since I after I realized a) my behavior and b) I cared for her all that really matters is her. But that doesn't really mean 'all' as in she can do or say anything she wants or disrespect me. And sorry replying to THAT just to rub my face would be. Let's move past that though since that I find to be unlikely (I don't find it unlikey she returned for a while to ex and whatever).

Here is my current trigger: this whole 'can I call you an hour before I find time?'. It has been 4 days. I made a huge gesture. She isnt' a CEO with 6 kids. She has a job with a flexible schedule, lives 10 blocks from me, goes to a gym 2 blocks from 'our place' 6x a week. She is or was when I knew her very much a loner with 1-2 friends. Whatever has changed, I think the letter/gesture deserved enough respect to make a freaking hour of time. Reciprocation you know? I was at the gym this morning for a 2 hour class and wondering the whole time if I missed the text. I've been invited next week to go visit my sis and niece who are coming in from Cali to go to their beach home for a week and my first thought is I'll miss the 'I have an hour come!' lunacy. I'm going to the beach.

I don't want to relitigate. I'm happy to not discuss and just remember. However. Anything touches it off. My business? I'd say clearly there were concerns there when it started being her real future too. What we have been doing? Um dating pops up no? How great I look now?  How great she looks now? My point is any catch-up simply has to lead to what happened or where we are AND if she wants to talk 'truthfully' then that appears to be her agenda.

But I'm getting back to the fact that that letter (and her various reach outs) deserves the respect to a) not reach out for a meeting if there is not the chance/hope for the possibility of what I inivted her for and b) treat it as something important enough to find an hour to meet me since it requires anywhere from a 2 to a 10 minute walk. There is no timeline. There is just 'can i reach out when I find time to meet right beforehand'. I said yes. My window is closing Skip. My window for holding open my heart to just be open to her needs and heart. My window for waiting to be shown some reciprocal caring and respect. TWO times my very beautiful heartfelt letters have been called 'a nice note'. Protecting herself? BIFF? Fine. Now reach out and show me I am anywhere near the priority I'm showing you are, otherwise you are simply confirming the worst suspicions I had about you when I reached this board.

I told her how important she was to me and asked her to reach out if she wanted me back in her life. Now I'm supposed to sit by my phone so I don't miss the hour she 'stumbles' upon in the next day, week, month? Come on man. If my sister or female friend said some guy said that to them I'd tell them to tell the guy to do long-walk-short-pier and IF it was really important to him he'd find the time. My window is Tuesday, I am going to the beach then and that window is closed afterwards. If we are 'rekindling' I'm not doing it as a doormat.

[1stTimer]

If you don't want to court her back, it's not likely to happen or stick if it does get a restart.

I'm saying I am not in court her back mode when we meet. I need to see how she acts, what she says, how we feel together, how I feel seeing her in person. I'm saying she doesn't just have a free pass and she gets courted. There were two people in this blow-up. When I feel there is a woman in front of me I want to court and she is open to it I will court with the best of them. If I don't like what I hear or see or feel, as much as I may 'validate' it there will be no courting. if and when I do I will court. And it will stick.

Entitlements, expectations, seeking apologies/soothing, and doing what didn't work before are the common failure tactics. But I could be completely wrong when it comes to you and her.

Fair enough and I appreciate it. For the record I don't feel 'entitled' to anything from here, I get I didn't earn that and need to earn it back. In fact entitlement might have been what got me here. Super clear on that.

Expectations? My only real one is that she not show up after that letter and that gesture and that invitation just to rub my face in new guy.  And in terms of time my expectation is since i did her the courtesy of saying 'yes just reach out when you discover that hour in your week at the last minute' (not like that but that was the gist of what she wanted) she'd treat that kind of accommodation after that letter with the utmost respect. I think a week is a good timeframe to accept as acceptable and not disrespectful.

I do not expect or even want her to apologize or sooth or explain. I've said I really dropped the need to know or be soothed about what happened and realize whatever was going on I was to a large degree responsible for it. If you don't make someone feel special they aren't going to believe you think they are special.

Doing what didn't work? I'm hoping I've gotten better at listening and validating and empathizing. I'm certainly clear the main thing that didn't work was not appreciating. So I think I'm armed at least with the right INTENTIONS here.