Wife claims our daughter is Autistic... the other daughter this time

[Enabler]

Howdy all,

I was in 2 minds where to post this but figured the best place was here on conflicted.

6 months ago my wife started to claim that my D5 might be autistic. As far as I could tell, this was on the ground of her behavioral issues... .which I might on the whole are pretty good, she is just a defiant 5 year old who's smart enough to push through the path of least resistance... .i.e. scream & shout until people leave her be such that she gets what she wants.

Last night uBPDW claimed (albeit it without any further conversation) that D10 is also likely to be autistic. D10 has some quirks, such as she has a few very very specific niche phobias... .of cinemas and large supermarkets. She has had a huge amount of anxiety entering either of these places in the last few years and often goes out of her way to avoid or refuses to enter. Anyway, I got a little closer to the root cause of this last night (she refuses to tell me as she believe's it's a silly reason... .literally won't even entertain a discussion and is super sensitive to it after longer than 30 seconds conversation) and believe it's because she once was very frightened by a vocal handicapped person. D10 is VERY emotionally sensitive and without jumping the gun and rubber stamping her, I use many of the BPD tools with her to improve our communication and shorten her dysregulations. D10 gets pretty intense abandonment fears, super black and white thinking and has even suggested (when dysregulated) she wants to kill herself 5-10 times in the last few years. So, I relay my findings to my W last night and she claims that she's likely autistic and that's always been something odd with her... .As much as I can appreciate there has always been some greater than normal sensitivities with D10, I think my W is failing to think appropriately about the facts, and how autism actually manifests itself. I don't believe for a second that either daughter is autistic.

My take is... .
D5 - is the way she is because she is 5 and no one has given her consistent boundaries... .Consistent boundaries does not mean let her do whatever she likes and then shout at her for some random thing one day. D5 is seeking boundaries and then finding they have moved from one day to the next. W is unable to commit the emotional energy consistently required to maintain the container that D5... .one day the electric fence is here... .one day it is there. Confusing
D10 - is the way she is because she is emotionally sensitive and doesn't know how to deal with negative emotions... .And when she blows up (big) people fuel the fire rather than starve it of oxygen. She has never learnt to identify and deal with her emotions as they have been invalidated in the past by myself and my W. I am playing catch up but my W is nowhere near knowing about herself let alone D10.

I have a couple of concerns... .firstly, when communication is at almost zero how does one attempt to correct the autism diagnosis... .my gut feeling is I don't at all. Secondly, how do I go about suggesting my W learn how to use DBT tools on D10 in conflict (which seem to work), without nudging the elephant in the room that is my W's sensitivities? I keep showing W how to communicate and she keeps seeing it being effective... .yet when D10 dysregulates so does W and then they keep fueling each others fires. I might be 75% way through allowing D10 to burn out and W will come in and say "how could you do this to me, I feel like this is a personal attack on me, you are so ungrateful, you've been horrible to me, all I do for you you ungrateful little girl... ."... .BOOM.

I'm in a tinderbox and wish I could fight one fire at a time... .but that's not how things are, so currently I have to wait till W has finished fueling the fire and then start again on damage limitation.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I don't know if your children have autism or not, but one way to establish if they were to have it is to have them evaluated professionally. Doing this will also get you out of the conflict with your wife over the diagnosis. This may also be helpful if she goes through with her divorce wishes, so that autism, or not meeting their needs  isn't falsely brought up in custody.

I don't think it is unusual for children to have behavioral issues when a marriage is affected by disorder. Anxiety would be expected. Since people with autism also have anxiety, there could be some similarities in the behavior- how they manage it. People with autism can also have rituals and compulsions to manage anxiety.

Parents with PD's tend to think of children as extensions of themselves. When the child exerts their own individuality this can be perceived as an affront to a BPD parent- who will see if from victim mode. Also, as they get older, they become aware of the parent's disordered behavior- and this is threatening to the parent.

There could also be something between mothers and daughters at that age. Teens want to differentiate from their parents and to them, this means being different from them. A boy may not push this as much with his mother- they are already different, but a teen age girl can- and think the mother is just wrong about everything. This is a normal stage but I imagine a triggering one for a BPD mother.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Enabler,
I know you want to protect your daughters and it would be wonderful to teach your wife new parenting skills. The first is doable, the second perhaps unlikely.

Let's use the term Asperger's, which I think is no longer the clinical term for high functioning individuals, since I'm guessing your daughters don't seem diagnosable for autism from the behaviors you describe. There's a wonderful book, Aspergirls https://www.amazon.com/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperger-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00GDJQNO4 . It seems that Asperger's manifests differently in females than males and many girls are not diagnosed as children. I read it a couple of years ago because I suspected that I have a lot of Aspie traits.

I loved the book because it reframed many Aspie traits and I realized that some issues which seemed to be deficits, actually gave me a tremendous amount of strength. For example: I'm more of a thinker than a feeler and I had often missed cues from others about their feelings. Once I became aware of some deficits, I was able to learn how to adapt. Turns out that old dogs (or cats) can indeed learn new tricks.

I gave that book to a friend who also seems to have some Aspie traits and she loved it too. It helped her make sense out of much that seemed previously inexplicable.

On the other hand, having done Neurofeedback after a concussion, my brain map doesn't read as an Aspie. Perhaps it's because over many years of reading and therapy, I've learned life skills and have been able to compensate. However what it does indicate is that I'm a highly sensitive person. www.hsperson.com/some-new-research-on-sensory-processing-sensitivity-sps/

I suspect that your daughters are highly sensitive as well. I don't know if this is a nature/nurture issue; I haven't done much reading about that. But off the top of my head, I will tell you that it was very obvious that I didn't learn a lot of needed social skills from my BPD mother and that as a very young child, I fell into reactivity patterns to my mother's dysregulations.

My dad did the best he could, but he really wasn't a warm fuzzy hands-on dad and he didn't have certain social skills himself, so he couldn't be much of a remedial influence.

My suggestion is for you to bridge the gap for your daughters and to be the role model they need, because your wife may not have that ability.

   

I'm so glad that you're such a strong advocate for your girls.  

Cat

[kells76]

Hi Enabler, I'm usually over on the family law/coparenting board, but I often check in on what's going on elsewhere.

Notwendy has a good suggestion about getting the kid(s) evaluated. Might be a tactic of "I'll see you and raise you one" -- maybe your W expects a fight about it, but instead you roll with it.

"Correcting" your W's "diagnosis" probably wouldn't go well, at least from you. Would be interesting to see what she did with a diagnosis of "not autistic" from a professional.

In fact, this might be a blessing in disguise. I wonder if, after going through a full assessment, your kids might get "diagnosed" as Not Autistic, but counseling recommended. Counseling was really helpful for my DH with his girls, who were about 8 & 10 at the time. Big behavioral issues esp from SD10 (anxiety, defiance, total identification with Mom, etc).

Counseling, even if your kids' mom doesn't participate (who knows, she might see herself as "not having any problems"), could help you find effective, empathetic ways to communicate with your D's. When kids feel listened to, it can take things from a spiraling-out-of-control explosion to a somewhat more manageable discussion. Not always, but often.

If you're concerned about whether this would come up in a divorce (though I know you're on Conflicted) down the road, see about getting a "paper trail" by maybe having these discussions with your W via email or (saveable) texts. It would show that you weren't some heartless jerk with no parenting skills who dismissed her empathetic diagnosis out of hand   but you were willing to get the kids assessed because it was best for them. And hey, if the end result is that neither D has autism, well, that's not on you any more.

Hope this helps;

kells76

[Enabler]

Parents with PD's tend to think of children as extensions of themselves. When the child exerts their own individuality this can be perceived as an affront to a BPD parent- who will see if from victim mode. Also, as they get older, they become aware of the parent's disordered behavior- and this is threatening to the parent.

This is the biggest area of conflict. Not so much that she wants to be different, she wants her different choices to be heard and acknowledged e.g. "I hate the pub, I refuse to go to the pub". W does not want to acknowledge their choices and desires and paints a sense of entitlement about her choices... ."all I do for you and I just want to see my friends for a change". The children albeit incapable of compromise can see through the sense of entitlement and question it's validity with sound reasoned arguments. "I never go out!"... ."You go out all the time, you went out last night, the night before and all day Saturday with your friends... .!" ... .then the fireworks begin, guilt and shame is thrown around and all the sensitive people in the house start WW3.  

I have been making a point of ensuring these choices are listened to and on my watch compromises are sought, allotted times are pre-determined and a firm plan is made such that everyone knows their wishes have been considered. I also take ownership of choices... ."I want to go to the pub for me, I understand that you might not want to, but I am trying to consider all wants as well as my own."

I will think about your professional diagnosis suggestion. My gut feeling is that I shouldn't give it any air time and it could be traumatic for the children just being assessed.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Hey Kells76,

D10 is already pretty good at opening up about feelings. I know and she knows that she doesn't like to talk about her feelings but we can skirt around it and sometimes have very open and honest conversations about them. It's often 2 steps forwards and 1 step back but we've found a good half joking way of discussing where she knows I will push her to reveal more and she will resist... .but i get a little bit further each time. She doesn't trust me fully, but we have an understanding that we both know something is going on that she keeps locked tight within her. Every time she opens up I'm non-judgemental and validating and there's a sense of relief and the door opens a tiny bit more.

I have discussed talking to a "head man" ( the words I use to describe seeing my T... .who helps me learn how to think better), but not sure she would trust them enough to open up.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I agree with your concern about not giving more air time to the diagnosis, but are your kids in any counseling at all? It might open the door to them getting help for their situation.

Your kids won’t be validated by their mother and if you do it - it becomes a triangle with BPD Mom as victim. A professional is a safe place for the children to be validated.

Evaluations are not usually traumatic from what I know. Your younger daughter might think someone is playing games with her. The older daughter might welcome a safe person to talk to.

[Enabler]

Your kids won’t be validated by their mother and if you do it - it becomes a triangle with BPD Mom as victim. A professional is a safe place for the children to be validated.

Very valid point. Thus far I have a strict boundary of 'this is what I am doing, and this is what "we" are going to do... .what Mummy does is up to her'. Yes, there is a risk that this creates a divide me vs mummy, but that should exists and it's not wrong for me to differentiate myself from her... .not least because of the impending D. 'I have my way and mummy has hers... .you can judge each persons merits or not, I don't much care'. Allowing them the opportunity to safely express their feelings about their situation in a non-judgmental (by me) arena has been a relief to them... .even having a judgement was judged.

The historic reality was that as a parent I tried to massage the kids into thinking positively about my W, whilst she massaged them into thinking negatively about me... .now there's no massaging... .I just let them talk.

[Notwendy]

The historic reality was that as a parent I tried to massage the kids into thinking positively about my W

I know you mean well by doing this but reading this made me cringe - from my own background. I do think it is important to instill values in our children and the one I struggled with is "honor your parents". I think it is important to honor my parents- including my BPD mother but this does not mean I think in positive terms about her.

I was raised to accept her abusive behavior to me, not to mention it and to deny it. As a result, I accepted my husband treating me poorly. I thought I had to make my mother happy in order to be loved and brought this same idea into my marriage.

As a child we cling desperately to any love from a parent. That included my father, for whom I had to keep mother happy to be loved.

But I didn't feel positive towards her. How does one feel positive towards a person who is yelling at you, saying mean things, making me cry? I was not allowed to be angry at her or stand up for myself.

Adults told me " you must love your mother" "she really loves you"

The truth - as a teen, I hated her and I don't think she liked me much either. I hated her behavior. I had no idea she had a mental illness. Had I known that, I could have understood. Instead, I was told I had to behave and obey her, yet she didn't have to behave and it looked to me as if my dad gave her anything she wanted.

A while back, a DV shelter held a fund raiser selling T shirts that said "love doesn't hurt" . It occurred to me that I was taught it's OK for people to hurt you, and you have to love them.

I know I have to treat my mother respectfully and I do. It is part of my value system. I don't have to think positive about her behavior when it isn't OK with my value system.

Your kids think what they think and feel what they feel. These are their boundaries and allowing them to feel what they feel may keep them out of abusive relationships one day.

[Enabler]

There’s one thing giving them a safe space to address their own comcerns without “honour thy parents” and there’s another thing telling them to not honour their mother. I don’t want to participate in parental alienation myself.

I have taken the position of welcoming critique of myself, being accountable, showing them that they don’t have to show me respect if I don’t behave inappropriately... .and telling them that I know that sometimes I don’t, because I’m human and fallible. If they can see this in me I’m certain they will validate for themselves that their mothers behaviour is also inappropriate. I’d rather empower them to come to their own conclusions and have the personal strength to KNOW what they see and feel is true.

[Enabler]

So... .D5 had a bit of a temperature last night. I spoke to W briefly about it. This morning I send her a whatsapp asking how D5 is. She picks it up and ignores my question. I'd like to point out this is probably the 50th time this has happened so nothing new. Any suggestions how I resolve this? I can't force her to be reasonable and respond and being abrupt or calling her out with her will just result in her doing something nasty in response

I'm being punished for something... .But not sure what that something is. Ignoring ST is one thing, but when you require information how do you get a response? I have no other way of gleaning the information about my childs welfare?

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

+1 for the suggestions of evaluation.

My DD11 has always been anxious and manifested this a lot on starting secondary school a few months back, so I involved the GP. The GP said a CAMHS referral was needed before making any intervention, and gave me a form prefilled with DD11's details and the report I'd given her, but most was left for me to fill in and send on to CAMHS. I added to it that I had wondered about ASD/Asperger's due to the anxiety, sensory sensitivity and some other issues, and sent it off. There was a quick response and they offered (1) self-referral to a children's counselling charity, (2) an anxiety workbook, and (3) to be referred for an ASD/Asperger's assessment by the private company Psicon to which they have now outsourced assessments. I haven't heard from the company yet, I plan to chase soon.

YMMV depending on your local health authority, but that was all pretty straightforward to initiate, and we have been offered both counselling and an assessment as suggested by posters here. If your W is serious about what she is suggesting this is the process she or you should follow. Note that for CAMHS to act there really needs to be some incident(s) of significant functional disruption to the child's activities, performance, behavior etc. The first step is discussing the concerns with the GP.

Also, is your W perhaps thinking or trying to suggest that you yourself might be autistic? Has she ever said anything like this to you? I would suggest that you pre-emptively take the Autism Spectrum Quotient (AQ) test which is available here and other places:
https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient
A score of 32 or more indicates a high probability of an ASD. The AQ is for adults, but there are children's versions of professional autism tests available online if you want to go down that route.

Also, has your W herself ever been assessed for ASD/Asperger's? Could she be wondering about this as a possibility for herself? She could try that test too.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[Notwendy]

What I was suggesting was to avoid parental alienation, not cause it. In my situation, there was no parental alienation. My BPD mother alienated herself through her behavior and we all had to pretend we didn't see it.

I think it is important for your girls to behave respectfully to their mother but also keep their sense of boundaries. It's really a fine line and I think involves a counselor- objective person- so that you don't triangulate.

I was raised to be a doormat to my parents and that isn't desirable either. I don't know the answer for what to do but I could have used someone to advocate for me in my FOO. I don't think its good for that person to be you- as it gets in the triangle, but a counselor can do that.

[Enabler]

If your W is serious about what she is suggesting... .

Also, is your W perhaps thinking or trying to suggest that you yourself might be autistic? Has she ever said anything like this to you?
A score of 32 or more indicates a high probability of an ASD. The AQ is for adults, but there are children's versions of professional autism tests available online if you want to go down that route.

Also, has your W herself ever been assessed for ASD/Asperger's? Could she be wondering about this as a possibility for herself? She could try that test too.

Your score was 11 out of a possible 50.

Scores in the 0-25 range indicate few or no Autistic traits.

So, if she thinks that I am Autistic then she's sadly mistaken. Also, looking at the questions and kinda seeing how they might point to autism / not-autism my daughter isn't either.

Boiled down I don't think my W is serious about my kids being autistic... .in the moment she might have been, a bit like saying there's a unicorn in the front garden or Enabler is a child abuser... .but she's not going to pursue it. HOWEVER... .what I do think it indicates is that she see's 'something' wrong and she's search for that something. She can see the resultant behaviors in other people... .me... .the kids... .but is unable/unwilling to look at herself to see the origin of the chaos... ."Who did that?".

[Cat Familiar]

Let's step away from your wife's amateur diagnoses, and just look at some of the issues that you see your daughters facing. The older one has anxiety and phobias and is reluctant to talk about her feelings. In addition, she has abandonment fears, exhibits black and white thinking and has made suicide threats.

You suspect the five year old is dealing with inconsistent boundaries and is just being a five year old.

For me, preventative medicine is the best medicine, rather than waiting for full-blown illness. In the case of the 10 year old, there's plenty of reasons that it would be beneficial for her to see a therapist. Add in hormones in a year or two and she will be dealing with much more volatile emotion.

Any children who are dealing with conflict in the home, even though it sounds like you are keeping it at a minimum, would be well served by having a counseling relationship with a therapist they like and trust. When mommy and daddy aren't getting along well, it's painful and frightening for children. (I remember well.)

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

Okay, you are pretty neurotypical then! Yes I can see how your W might be latching onto that idea as an explanation for things like anxiety and (actual or perceived by your W) difficult behaviors and demanding behaviors. You could make use of the idea to suggest counselling as Cat Familiar says. 
 A good children's counsellor should be able to spot or discuss with you if the combination of behaviors does suggest autism.

BetterLanes x