Apologies, forgiveness, reconciliation, amends--how are they different? [Christian Discussion]

[formflier]

Sure... so "sorry I'm running late"... ."oh my gosh babe I apologize I forgot to "

That is common.

So... generally forgiveness is asked for when you "transgress" or "sin" against someone.  My version of "sin" is a bit less harsh that my wife.  I view sin as "falling short" of our calling.  So... ."sin" is clearly wrongdoing (since that is falling short)... .yet I also think "sin" is when we know what we are called to do/be and we don't (willfully or not)

So... .in an intimate Christian relationship when you fall short of your calling (in my case husband and leader of the house)... .I should acknowledge that so it can be talked about and perhaps by "becoming one flesh"... .I'll have a better chance of "hitting the mark" next time (or at least getting closer)

(my wife likely sees it more like "you wretched sinner... look at all your wrongdoing")  and certainly that is sin.

Anyway... .a phrase I use in life is "if there is a doubt, there is no doubt".  So... .if you are wondering if you should be vulnerable, admit a shortcoming and ask for forgiveness... .do it.  Move past it and keep on trucking.

Well... .it would work wonders and then, out of nowhere it started getting weird.  (her responses)

Same thing happened with praying in conflict.  Most Christian couples if an argument starts... .take a time out and go pray.

Worked for a long time... .then it became like flamethrower making things worse, so I rarely if ever ask my wife to pray, unless she appears on best behavior.

Not what I want at all.  Yet the pragmatic part of me says there are less eruptions because of my "policy"... so... .that's what I do.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

this is me modifying a post I put in wrong place

[I Am Redeemed]

As a Christian, I believe that sinning against someone requires not just an apology, but asking for forgiveness. This would be in cases where harm was caused, whether intentionally or otherwise, by some action of mine that was not in line with God's word.

However, since uBPDh would come up with all sorts of perceived slights and transgressions that I had committed (with zero evidence or basis in reality), and since he blamed me for all his negative feelings (I feel jealous, therefore you did something to make me feel jealous, which causes me anxiety and distress, and you know that happens when I feel jealous so you did it on purpose to hurt me), he would use my belief against me.

I would not ask for forgiveness for something that I didn't do. His perception of reality was distorted and I was not going to support that distortion. As a result, he accused me of thinking I was always right, that I was self righteous and judgmental and also a hypocrite.

The irony was that he also claimed Christian beliefs, yet continuously violated God's word and remained only superficially repentant. Worldly remorse, not godly sorrow.

 

[GaGrl]

So asking for forgiveness is making amends ?

[formflier]

So asking for forgiveness is making amends ?

Good question!

I use the term reconciliation. 

I would say forgiveness is required to start reconciliation.  By the same token you can forgive someone, yet NOT reconcile for various reasons.

I've heard some Christians allege you can be "one flesh" on this earth.  I think because of sin a marriage can never actually be that close, but I like the idea of "one flesh" as something to shoot for... .a goal.

Reconciliation of a marriage is coming back together and trying to get closer.

My wife alleges forgiveness and reconciliation is one and the same.  So... say forgive... it's over... .never happened... nothing to change (for her)

Yet... .for me there can sometimes be a laundry list of issues/things to do.  The more I learned about BPD the less I would try to accomplish the list.

FF

[empath]

I'm glad I asked because I have a different idea of what forgiveness is and what happens. I think of it as more a personal "letting go" of the right to vengeance. I've sat in a group where a person in leadership asked for forgiveness and essentially demanded it be granted before moving on with the gathering.

Several years ago, I created a lesson on what a "proper" apology was... .  Listening to understand the other person's hurt, stating what was done and how the other person felt, stating what will be done to make amends, and following through... .

With my h, it's hard to go through that process; I don't think there has been many times that it has happened. He thought he never needed to change, but I did -- the list would change depending on the BPD winds. He was even in a 12 step program. When they got to the step where they were to make amends, he told me that he couldn't make amends for what he had done. So, he remained stuck... . 

I was sinning because I wasn't doing what he told me to do... . 

[Notwendy]

I think it's good that you noticed the difference between how you view "sin" and how your wife does. It may help to understand her emotional reaction to when she makes a mistake - which can be seen as "missing the mark" or " you wretched defective sinner".

If a child is shamed for making a mistake, he/she may feel they are the one who is a mistake, defective, worthless rather than a human who has made an error that can be repaired.

If your wife is experiencing core shame, then when you admit to having made an error, she may then project her core shame on to you. This might be why doing this appears to be fueling the flames.

I think the term "sin" can mean different things to different people. You two may be using the same word but interpreting it in different ways.

She may also have a different emotional concept of God than you do. We talk about this in ACA groups. Young children imagine God to be like their parents. If parents were shaming and punitive, this influences how their child emotionally relates to God.

Maybe it would help to drop the word "sin" when you feel you need to bring up a transgression on her or your part. There are other ways to express a mistake that may not be shame triggers for her.

[formflier]

I like where this discussion is going, because it has caused me to think deeply about some words and how they are used... .interpreted.

Totally agree that "sin" can be spun many different ways.

Also... .not saying anyone here is wrong, but as I thought about the word "amends" I realized I had thought about it years ago and wasn't a big fan of that in a relationship.

For me... .I see "amends" as a kissing cousin to "restitution".  Generally not helpful in a relationship (IMO) because it kinda indicates one person has some "making up to do", while leaving off the other person from having any role.

I like the work "reconcile" because reconciliation requires assent and deliberate action on both parties to the relationship.

I totally agree with other sentiments that forgiveness can (and should be) done individually.  Yes... "letting go" is a good way to look at it.  Asking for forgiveness is essentially saying to the other person "I have a debt to you for which I should make amends (restitution)... ." would you forgive me of that debt?  (a very vulnerable thing to say)

Then... .once forgiveness is done both parties focus on the relationship and "doing work" to repair/reconcile the relationship... .vice make it up to each other. 

If you want to stick with amends... .reconciliation could be considered the wronged person helping with the amends, vice making sure the offending party does it all.

The over arching goal of this is to bring God's grace into relationships.  I view grace as "unwarranted favor".  So... .we as people didn't "earn" God's grace.  If you looked at what we "earned" we would not "deserve" grace.

The process of forgiveness/reconciliation is both parties realizing that grace is not "deserved" or "earned", yet both parties agree that since each of them are recipients of grace they will let that grace pass through them to the relationship... .vice make the other party "work for it".

Really hoping that made sense... .still waking up.

FF

[Notwendy]

Making amends is not contingent on the other person. It helps the one who is making amends. It's also a part of the 12 steps. You make amends for your part. Their part is up to them. It's about us owning our own stuff- regardless of what they do.

In fact, one should not mention them or an excuse. See how these "amends" sound:

"I'm sorry I snapped at you".

I'm sorry I snapped at you but you were snappy too"

I'm sorry I snapped at you but I was tired"


The first one is better received and sounds more sincere.

[formflier]

Yep... .I'm totally aware that some see amends in a different way... .totally ok.  And absolutely the first one is much more sincere.

Please don't take any of my comments as "knocking" amends, rather I've found other words I tend to focus on more.

Perhaps another way of expressing my sadness about all of this. For roughly 15-16 years the Christian life/marriage I lived seemed to work.  Things got solved... differences were reconciled.

Then... .poof... .BPDish stuff shows up with a vengeance.

Sigh... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I understand, it's hard to have what you hoped for and then lose it. I think we all have gone through this in some way. There was some kind of "harmony" or "love bombing" phase and then the BPD appeared. I know yours is also related to a stress event, but it had to be there in the first place to have it come out like that. I think stress affects pwBPD like it does anyone else- they are more able to "hold it together" when there is less stress. Your wife seems very high functioning to me ( compared to my BPD mom). She probably did hold it together.

There's a grief and anger over losing what you thought you had. For me, it came down to accepting that- the initial "mask" wasn't real in the first place. We had issues from the get go. I just didn't recognize them. There was always a "reason". Work stress, or blame on me , and I believed it. I see it more clearly now.

But it's hard. You wanted a  Baptist church Christian marriage- and now it seems different.

[stolencrumbs]

This is an interesting discussion, even for a non-Christian. I'm not sure how relevant the below is to FF's particular situation, but I was thinking about forgiveness and BPD generally, as it seems like this is a problem lots of people encounter.

It seems to me that asking for forgiveness hits right at the heart of what pwBPD struggle with the most. Forgiveness is, in large part, about asking someone else to give up or let go of certain emotions--resentment, anger, spite, vengeance, etc. It's hard to imagine someone holding on to all of those emotions and it being true that they have forgiven the person. To forgive is to give at least some of that up. (Which paves the way for possible reconciliation, which does seem to me to be the telos of forgiveness.)

So when we ask for forgiveness from a pwBPD, we are essentially asking them to regulate their emotions. If that's right, it's not surprising that this is a problem area in relationships. We are asking them to do something that is really, really, really hard--stop feeling a certain way.

In my own relationship, this played out with my wife wanting to forgive, but not being able to get rid of those feelings, or not for very long. Then she feels bad because she can't forgive, and that badness gets thrown back on me--I didn't ask the right way or do enough to be forgiven, i.e., I didn't successfully regulate her emotions.

Anyway, it just struck me as I was thinking about his how intimately connected forgiveness seems to be to emotional regulation.

[empath]

I like the work "reconcile" because reconciliation requires assent and deliberate action on both parties to the relationship.

I totally agree with other sentiments that forgiveness can (and should be) done individually.  Yes... "letting go" is a good way to look at it.  Asking for forgiveness is essentially saying to the other person "I have a debt to you for which I should make amends (restitution)... ." would you forgive me of that debt?  (a very vulnerable thing to say)

My favorite phrase for making amends is fruits of repentance; I think of it as turning toward the relationship instead of away. It is a way to restore the trust that has been broken in a relationship.

One of the things that I dislike about much of the Christian teaching on forgiveness is that it "forgives the debt" without the need for repentance. It seems to sweep the broken parts under the rug. Forgiveness is also a requirement for Christians, so there is an obligation that we have to forgive.

It seems to me that asking for forgiveness hits right at the heart of what pwBPD struggle with the most. Forgiveness is, in large part, about asking someone else to give up or let go of certain emotions--resentment, anger, spite, vengeance, etc. It's hard to imagine someone holding on to all of those emotions and it being true that they have forgiven the person. To forgive is to give at least some of that up. (Which paves the way for possible reconciliation, which does seem to me to be the telos of forgiveness.)

It does require pwBPD to regulate their emotions and to have empathy for the other person as separate from themselves. Really, really, really hard.

[Fian]

I am not a believer in asking for forgiveness from another person.  Forgiveness comes from God.  If I am going to apologize to a person, I say I am sorry, but I don't ask for them to forgive me.

On the issue of apologies, I don't tend to apologize much.  My wife would take that as some kind of personality disorder or something.  I really try hard to do what is right, and I would tend to only apologize if I am feeling shame over my actions which would eliminate apologizing for small stuff.

On a related topic, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that gives a person the right to demand an apology.  If I have an issue with a person, I state my issue and then let it go.  Whether they choose to apologize is up to them.  However, my wife pushes me to apologize to her which I view as the opposite of turning the other cheek.

[Enabler]

What happens in a situation where your SO is hurt by the truth? As they say, the truth hurts... .(but the truth hurts some people more).

My W may feel like they are due an apology for the hurt I caused her by telling her the truth, but I feel there is no grounds to apologies or even make a mends when my delivery would not be hurtful to other people.

e.g. Invalidation - you said something factually incorrect. To my W that would be abusive as you are stimulating her shame response, yet I haven't done anything 'wrong'.

[Fian]

What happens in a situation where your SO is hurt by the truth? As they say, the truth hurts... .(but the truth hurts some people more).

My W may feel like they are due an apology for the hurt I caused her by telling her the truth, but I feel there is no grounds to apologies or even make a mends when my delivery would not be hurtful to other people.

e.g. Invalidation - you said something factually incorrect. To my W that would be abusive as you are stimulating her shame response, yet I haven't done anything 'wrong'.

Yes, that is the crux of the matter for me and my wife.  She has this long list of things she thinks that I have done wrong and should apologize to her, however most of the time I don't think I actually did anything wrong.  Part of the problem is that I have Asperger's and as such I have poor social skills.  I know the intent of my actions, and there is nothing sinister about them, however she judges me based on how she felt in that interaction.  In some cases here feelings are not reasonable, but in other cases, a normal person probably would have been offended as well.  So should I apologize if a normal person would be offended, and how would I judge that?  And is a normal person the correct standard?  Looking at the world differently, to be honest, I see that normal people can also be wrong, and their judgement skewed.

[Cat Familiar]

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