Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

After a little moan to a work colleague I thought I'd start a new thread on parentification as an adult. You might be thinking, 'how can an adult be turned into a parent? This fool clearly misunderstands what parentification is!'.

"Parentification is the process of role reversal whereby a child is obliged to act as parent to their own parent or sibling. In extreme cases, the child is used to fill the void of the alienating parent's emotional life." Wikipedia

My whole moan really comes down to boundaries, I know that. I know the solution is to match her game and leave the smashed plates where they land, BUT, I really can't muster the energy to be so petty and act so far away from the behaviours I see as a healthy symbiotic relationship... yet here I am moaning about it.

What do I mean by parentification of an adult? I mean the systematic shift of adult responsibilities and tasks (effort) from one adult to another. Where one adult consistently fails and actually reduces their effort and responsibilities whilst relying on the nature of the other partner to compensate. The adult isn't ill or disabled meaning he or she can't carry out the tasks or be responsible (excluding BPD), and most importantly the adult EXPECTS the tasks to be completed and EXPECTS other people to be responsible for those things that they cast aside as "not important to me".

What does this look like:

Almost every day I come home to a kitchen full of evening meal carnage and chaos... and a wife that is walking out the door saying "sorry, I'm running late can you just tidy this up, get the kids ready for bed and put them to bed?" (that's not a question FWIW).

A wife that spends 100% of her income and more on her leisure and clothes, yet has petitioned for a divorce and expects me to facilitate all divorce costs and states to others that she is concerned about her financial security post divorce.

A wife that has no concerns at all about her consumption of leisure time e.g. so far this year she has been out 93 evenings and away on holiday for 45 days (that's 58.97% of days she's been either away or out).

I could list for some time.

I am sick and tired of being a parent to a child... I've tried withholding income but that just feeds the "abusive" argument and she finds other avenues to get hold of the funds she wants. I also don't want to lower my standards in an arms race to the bottom, what message does that send our 3 kids. The thing is, each request is reasonable... however, the cumulative effect of 1000 reasonable 'gives' are utterly unreasonable. It's like asking to borrow £1 from someone every day... for their entire life... that's £29,200 assuming you live to 80.

Does anyone else have any death by 1,000 cuts stories or feel like they are being parentified by their SO?

Enabler

[Enabler]

After a little moan to a work colleague I thought I'd start a new thread on parentification as an adult. You might be thinking, 'how can an adult be turned into a parent? This fool clearly misunderstands what parentification is!'.

"Parentification is the process of role reversal whereby a child is obliged to act as parent to their own parent or sibling. In extreme cases, the child is used to fill the void of the alienating parent's emotional life." Wikipedia

My whole moan really comes down to boundaries, I know that. I know the solution is to match her game and leave the smashed plates where they land, BUT, I really can't muster the energy to be so petty and act so far away from the behaviours I see as a healthy symbiotic relationship... yet here I am moaning about it.

What do I mean by parentification of an adult? I mean the systematic shift of adult responsibilities and tasks (effort) from one adult to another. Where one adult consistently fails and actually reduces their effort and responsibilities whilst relying on the nature of the other partner to compensate. The adult isn't ill or disabled meaning he or she can't carry out the tasks or be responsible (excluding BPD), and most importantly the adult EXPECTS the tasks to be completed and EXPECTS other people to be responsible for those things that they cast aside as "not important to me".

What does this look like:

Almost every day I come home to a kitchen full of evening meal carnage and chaos... and a wife that is walking out the door saying "sorry, I'm running late can you just tidy this up, get the kids ready for bed and put them to bed?" (that's not a question FWIW).

A wife that spends 100% of her income and more on her leisure and clothes, yet has petitioned for a divorce and expects me to facilitate all divorce costs and states to others that she is concerned about her financial security post divorce.

A wife that has no concerns at all about her consumption of leisure time e.g. so far this year she has been out 93 evenings and away on holiday for 45 days (that's 58.97% of days she's been either away or out).

I could list for some time.

I am sick and tired of being a parent to a child... I've tried withholding income but that just feeds the "abusive" argument and she finds other avenues to get hold of the funds she wants. I also don't want to lower my standards in an arms race to the bottom, what message does that send our 3 kids. The thing is, each request is reasonable... however, the cumulative effect of 1000 reasonable 'gives' are utterly unreasonable. It's like asking to borrow £1 from someone every day... for their entire life... that's £29,200 assuming you live to 80.

Does anyone else have any death by 1,000 cuts stories or feel like they are being parentified by their SO?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

My story about this involves my BPDmom- not a marriage partner but an observation of this kind of relationship between my parents.

Dad earned the money, Mom spent it on whatever she wanted.

My mother grew up in the era where women didn't work outside the home- they were housewives. But housewives work- they work in the home-  she didn't do housework.

But this is the tough part to hear enabler. To "parent" an adult, someone is being the parent and not holding the child/adult accountable. At first, I thought my father was the victim of BPD mom. He even used this as an excuse. " I can't give you money for college because mother wants  to buy some new clothes"

So, the "villain" was mother, but the other option was saying "no" to her constant spending money on things in excess of what he could afford. Sure I think she should have some nice things, but it was at the point where my father did without, so she could have what she wanted.

Later on I wondered " why not say no?"

Because saying no to a toddler results in a tantrum, and it's scary to watch an adult have a tantrum.

I know it's tough with children in the home. You don't want a scene in front of them, but, Enabler, but there's an alternative and it's saying "no". Don't wash the dishes ( let them get disgusting). She might go out but the dishes stay there and next day, when she wants to eat something, they are still there.

Your wife is doing what she wants without consequences. This isn't good for a child. A parent tells the child they can't play until they do their homework. This teaches responsibility. Otherwise the parent is spoiling the child.

My BPD mother acts like  a spoiled child. But who spoiled her?

It may sound like being petty to leave the dishes, but another way to look at is is that it is in her best interest to do so. Just like it isn't good for your kids to do their homework for them. Sure, you could do it so they could watch TV, but you know, as an adult- the best thing to teach them responsibility is this: if you don't do your homework, then you will face the teacher, and get a zero. If you don't pick up your toys, you can't go out and play.

Enabler, I know you have chosen the long suffering path. It seems your wife does whatever she wants while you take on the responsibilities. I think most of us would choose something fun over doing the dishes, but it's a job that needs to be done.

[Enabler]

it is a job that needs doing, and I did eat the dinner that was prepared in the pots and pans... but I'd also done a full days work 06:00 depart 19:00 arrive home... so if you look at the meal in isolation it's not unreasonable that I should clear it up... similarly they are my kids as well, getting them ready for bed and putting them to bed is my responsibility as well... where does one draw the line?

Regarding the money. On 3rd July I stated when she asked for funds "I don't have much money, I have £3k for my holiday, £2.5k for your holiday and £5.5k tax bill to pay and I have £5k"... I was hoping to empower her to be responsible... Noo... the week after she spent in the region of £700 on clothes which she concealed under her bed (spare room), 2 weeks later asks for money again. This time I said "What is the minimum I can give you, we have no money, when do you get paid", to which she responded "I get paid in a few days, I'll have to go overdrawn". I didn't transfer any money. On Sunday she asked for money and I responded "No, I don't have any money", to which she responded "I'll just take it out of savings then" (for tax reasons she has access to a significant amount of money intended to pay down the mortgage). She's bought a bunch of new school uniforms and school shoes this last week which makes it tough to draw boundaries around what I should be sending her funds for and what I shouldn't.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I see your point and I think an imbalance is probably inevitable if the home isn't to become a war zone for the kids. We have different divisions in our home. My H doesn't touch the dishes. I do all the cooking ( except for when he grills- he does clean up the grill). If I am out and he cooks something like fried eggs, the pan is there for me to clean. He won't clean it.

His argument is that he is the chief wage earner and I agree- if someone is putting in hours of work, coming home to cook, clean and put kids to bed isn't fair. I did it, and still do. I am glad to do it most of the time. The problem is that- some of the time, I could have used a hand. Kids might have been sick or fussy, or some other reason where a helping hand would have been a kindness to me. But in his rigid system of my job/your job, it wasn't doing a kindness but a personal slight and unfairness to him. ( victim position?) and provoked a rage. So I stopped asking.

But later on, I also stopped cooking. Not all the time but some of the time, on the advice of a MC. Because years of co-dependency, I wasn't being a wife, or a housewife. I was being a servant to a man who wasn't treating me kindly. I was afraid to not be in servitude? Why? because that was my role with my parents- particularly BPD mom. I had to be her servant or she'd pitch a fit. I was parentified- learning to meet her needs early on out of fear of her reaction, while she didn't treat me kindly. And I repeated that in my marriage. It wasn't about cooking ( I actually like to cook) . It was me being co-dependent and I resented cooking because I was doing it from a co-dependent place, not a loving place. And even though my H was contributing greatly by supporting us, I was teaching him that this was all he had to do in the family and it was OK to not be kind to me.

The key to this is your own feelings Enabler. And if this feeling is resentment, you are being co-dependent, not caring. This teaches your wife, she can treat you like a doormat, because it reinforces her behavior.

Your kids are watching too. I didn't grow up acting like BPD mom. I grew up learning to behave with a spouse like my father did. It wasn't all bad. My father was a good man, like you, a decent man and a good father. I admired him. It was only when I could see my own role in relationships that I understood his. But I am not angry at him- I know he did the best he could and he is the main reason we kids were well cared for.

It's a balance Enabler. There's a lot to unravel here. It's probably best to choose one boundary first. The MC chose cooking for me. It was so hard. I was afraid to not cook a dinner because I feared the reaction. She knew I was not in danger, and she encouraged me to let him be angry.

I do say no to BPD mom and it's tough. She's persistent, she doesn't let up. I can see why Dad just said yes as he had to live with her. It's tough for me to say no but I do when I need to. However, over time, she's learned and doesn't try to push the boundaries as much.

The money thing is tough. I think money between a couple is managed with consideration for all. It's hard to achieve when there's a disordered person in the family.

Maybe you could start with dishes.

[formflier]

As I consider this...

Isn't something that is usually helpful...to advise people not to "buy into" their partners distorted thinking, evaluations and judgments?

Hmmm..

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Her default reaction to almost anything which involves discomfort is a reaction of “that’s not important to me”. An example of this is a message she sent me in March this year one morning -

“I do not have an attitude of irresponsibility towards security and money, as you have accused me for years. I have just always known and trusted that we do not need to live in fear about those things. It gives me the freedom to make choices that do not conflict with what is in my soul and what god put me here to do; I’m confident in myself that I am not frivolous or irresponsible. I have not selfishly left you with all the responsibility you believe I have. I was just attempting to stick to the conviction of my soul and the call on my life; to focus on God and relationships rather than security and earthly ambition. To follow careers that paid in joy not in money. Despite what you believe I was happy to forgo big houses, holidays, big ticket items, to follow that. I was trying to be me, to be free of unnecessary  worry, t trust and love with freedom we are meant to have. I believe you always completely misunderstood that...”

The irony is that I do see some of that and have always seen some of that, but there is a disconnect between her fantasy and her reality. She’s balanced one side of the equation whilst not balancing the other. She’s dropped the responsibility’s out of her worry rucksack yet not dropped the aspirations from her life. What penny pincher buys 3 tops for £45 each in 3 different colours after their partner has recently announced that they have slim funds? (And that’s not in the £700, that’s on top). When she was being responsible did she seek facts to validate the available funds for the purchases... clearly not. Also, she talks about this religious arrow she’s been following in her life like it’s always been there yet Christianity really only resurfaced from her youth in about 2006, half way through the relationship.

Notwendy I embrace your point about doing tasks willingly. But on the other hand they need doing, as my T says “you’re the one holding your family together at the moment, you should be proud of yourself”. I am the glue and that’s okay. The kids don’t see me as a doormat, they see someone without much of a choice in the matter they see me as the guy that shows up to the party and gets involved.

Enabler   

[formflier]

  What penny pincher buys 3 tops for £45 each in 3 different colours after their partner has recently announced that they have slim funds? (And that’s not in the £700, that’s on top). 

The penny pincher that has no incentive to do otherwise..

Right...

Put on your money hat.  When money is involved..do people

a.  Do what they are incentivized to do?

b.  Leave money on the table and do what they "know" is right?

Best,

FF

[empath]

My h describes his attitude toward finances as open and trusting, too. Other people have a different way of describing it (irresponsible and unstable) - some have even tried to help him with it. He's had lots of folks tell him that he should change his ways...  not happening. They aren't any more successful than I was.

My d(15) thinks he is more like her school friends than an adult, like her friends who have lots of drama in their lives.

Resentment is usually due to a boundary being crossed. I've had to put some financial boundaries in place that cost us.

[GaGrl]

My DH's ex is from a culture that has a very different set of values than our Western culture. I found an interesting article that listed her cultures primary values as Acquisition of Wealth, Improving the Status of Family,  Caring for Parents. The comparable values for Western cultures were Marriage and Family, Romantic Love, Living with Integrity.

Ex married DH to get to the U.S. As they began to establish themsrlves, money clearly became "what he earns is l ne, and what I want is mine." Over the years, she has accumulated and placed assets in good (23k that she buys in trips to her country) and real estate (in U.S. and in her country). She is not edcated, and I'm not sure how much the BPD affects her need for assets to be tangible (object constancy?).

Ex parentified DH during their marriage and still contacts him when she thinks he has the answer to a problem. She is selectively independent -- as with the money/assets.

[Notwendy]

FF wrote this: Isn't something that is usually helpful...to advise people not to "buy into" their partners distorted thinking, evaluations and judgments?

What your wife wrote- essentially that God wants her to be fancy free and not have responsibilities is unrealistic, childish, and entitled.

When you post your concerns about the dynamics with your wife, your rational is that of the good guy in the family, the one who is holding it together, the one who is enduring suffering for the greater good. I agree that your intentions are good, but question if the secondary gain from being the good guy is inhibiting your wife from learning adult behaviors by alleviating her from some basic responsibilities.

You say your kids see you as someone without much choice in the matter. This is how I saw my father as well when I was younger. I don't think kids are capable of understanding these dynamics in full. I still see my father in a positive light, a man to whom I owe my well being as a child. However I also see a wider picture. Due to his caretaking, my mother was absolved of adult responsibilities and lives as a child. Maybe this is all she is capable of, but if she was capable of more, we don't know, because too much caretaking took away any motivation to do more.

I understand the difference between willingness and doing what needs to be done- but in a way they are the same thing. I don't like to do dishes but I'm willing to do them because they need to be done. Sometimes the same action can be for emotionally healthy reasons or with co-dependent tendencies. It's not an easy distinction. For me, it took someone else to hold the mirror up to me, to point out that my "noble" intentions had secondary gain. To be blunt- being the "good guy" can be deceiving. Because sometimes we take the good guy position while not acting in the other person's best interest.

Is it really good for your wife in the long run to be carefree in evenings while you pick up the slack?  What will you say to your teenager who wants to go out but hasn't done their homework first? Would you let them go out while you do the homework for them? Is this good for them?

[Enabler]

Notwendy, I agree it is not in her long term interests but this is not something she is concerned with (long term that is). I spent years attempting (with rubbish skills) to be assertive about what is in her best interests (parenting) but all that has led to is being accused of being abusive. She has made it absolutely clear that she has interest in hearing any form of guidance  from me, I’m vilified if I even enquire as to where she’s going!

I don’t have a problem being the bad guy... but in the long term it leaves you INCREDIBLY exposed and open to accusations of abuse even if in reality they are unfounded. Eg does it matter if I have never been arrested or questioned by the police regarding domestic violence, financial abuse, emotional and verbal abuse if my wife and many of our friends and family believe her stories? Does it matter whether or not I have ever been questioned by social services about abusing our kids if my wife and many of our friends and family believe her stories? Mud sticks, even synthetic mud! There’s always someone you can find to validate the invalid... and your magical thinking.

Enabler

[formflier]

Help me understand the wisdom of buying into and then orienting your life around your wife's point of view (which I would call a disordered point of view).

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Ex parentified DH during their marriage and still contacts him when she thinks he has the answer to a problem. She is selectively independent -- as with the money/assets.

I was reading about this the other day, how a disordered person, person whom is borderline will "parentify" the other spouse - partner in the relationship.

This is different from the 'parentification' of children by disordered parents… we are talking about an adult, whom is partnered with another adult (disordered)… not a child in a family, whom mom, or dad, or both are disordered... well maybe, after you add about ten - fifteen or even twenty years to the ages of the suspect children.

The borderline (?)… is developmentally delayed, mentally, emotionally, socially - functionally… due to issues bonding with mother (<- symbiotically ?), or father, or both, due to a myriad of reasons… fill in the ____ (trauma).

The spouse - partner will then, in the "eyes" of the borderline, became the parent that was "absent", whom was non-functional, even and or was abusive (attachment issues - disorders)… its the same old scenario, bad programing, constantly attempting to correct itself… and all the maladaptive behaviors, mannerisms are still there, from when the borderline was a child - teenager… all the same mental tools are used, employed; to interact, to attempt to communicate, to control themselves (?), and others (always)… to survive in the marriage - or relationship… "fighting it out with mom - dad"… got to be right, got to win, got to have self validation of any and all "bad" behaviors, most times through control and punishment techniques:
*drama
*shame
*rage
*chaos
*control
*punish

So to me, what Enabler is describing here, is like a young teenage entitled, privileged young lady, explaining "why" it is alright for her to spend freely, without care or caution… because "dad" (Enabler) will be there to keep things together, balanced, and under control… "there are no money issues, we have plenty"… "God wants me to be happy"… "don't try to reign me in, I'm not misbehaving"… "“I do not have an attitude of irresponsibility towards security and money, as you have accused me for years. I have just always known and trusted that we do not need to live in fear about those things."

Wow!

Enabler has been "parentified" by Mrs. Enabler…

I know you've written about your wife's history, her early life before Enabler, and her college days .. and how you met… but can you relate any further about her known (by you) childhood, her Foo mum and dad?… and siblings?

I am as always curious,

Kind Regards, Red5

[Enabler]

Help me understand the wisdom of buying into and then orienting your life around your wife's point of view (which I would call a disordered point of view).

I wouldn’t say that I was buying into her point of view ie I don’t believe her point of view, however there has been a need to suck the heat and conflict out of the relationship to gain some form of stability and slow the proverbial train heading towards the cliff. In many respects I have achieved this and maybe reduced the probability of some of the outcomes that were untenable to me. Sadly this has been at the cost of lots of cake eating which will now require some conflict to eliminate. Some behaviours have died their own death as she has reaped the natural consequences of them, some require me to take action one by one eg access to family money and financial responsibility. However, I know now that I have to lead with action rather than rhetoric.

Enabler

[Enabler]

I know you've written about your wife's history, her early life before Enabler, and her college days .. and how you met … but can you relate any further about her known (by you) childhood, her Foo mum and dad? … and siblings?

MIL has a very very very lot stress tolerance and very emotionally immature. All things are done to MIL. MIL has a tendency to fuss and control yet punish the family for her acts of service. She cook you a 3 course meal when you asked for a sandwich then blame you for the inconvenience and be in a foul mood for the rest of the day. 

FIL is a 'yes dear' kinda guy, tolerates and absorbs an ungodly amount of berating for things that are simply nothing to do with him. He is criticised almost constantly, every character chink is highlighted and exaggerated and in the 22yrs I have known them I don't think I have ever seen them hold hands or show any signs of intimacy like a hug or a kiss. FIL never bites back when MIL's mood is directed at him and never intervenes when it's directed at someone else (the kids), I'm pretty sure all he hears now is "waaah waaah waaah". He's a skilled man, smart and sole breadwinner. He pays all the bills and looks after anything to do with money. He's super super financially conservative as well as being generally very risk averse. He was very well liked where he worked, hugely respected by the 'kids' in the office and had a decent social network there, but since retirement his social circle has massively reduced.

From what I can gather there wasn't a vast amount of money floating around when W and her sister were young, but what money there was was directed to the kids. I get the impression that MIL determined what was important and money was directed at that and FIL and MIL were the rounding figure. Things like horse riding lessons and all the kit. MIL never pushed back on demands from kids and seemingly rarely placed responsibility where it should have rested (on the kids), however, she would punish them with silent treatment and passive aggressive behaviour e.g. Kids would shout demands from the sofa for drinks and food, she would get it for them and then get cross with them later about something inane having stewed on it in the kitchen... or even more likely take it out on FIL when he returned home. FIL and MIL would give W lifts to parties, pick her up drunk and then ignore her because of her errant behaviour, yet rinse and repeat the following week. My perception was that the kids were mothered too long and MIL did too many tasks for them that they were more than capable of doing for themselves. One other thing, Christmas and Birthday presents never seemed to be given at Christmas and Birthdays, it was almost always taken before. There was no delayed gratification e.g. "I need a pair of boots in October... I'll get them now for Christmas." Then more presents would rock up at Christmas.

SIL is a tornado, she comes in, creates chaos and then leaves. Fell apart at university requiring very regular visits from MIL and FIL. Even in her 20's and 30's MIL and especially FIL were going up to her flat (which FIL renovated and decorated) to sort things out for her.

MIL is a perennial victim, however, almost the only way that she shows concern for anyone or anything is if they are injured i.e. if they are also a victim. She loves to pity people. She's no interest at all in achievement, success, or anyone feeling on top of the world... those things are to be despised and brought down to earth. So, to get "Love"...(read Pity) from MIL you have to be wounded fawn. To avoid being despised you have to downplay anything good. e.g. first reaction when MIL is told that we're expecting our 3rd child... literally the first words out of her mouth "How are you going to cope?" (We'd show no signs of not coping with #1& #2)... she then went on to say how it would put additional pressure on them...

So if I had to sum it up, MIL would give FIL's shirt off his back for the kids, and then punish them for it.

[Notwendy]

I can understand your wanting to keep the peace and some sort of stability.  It's more of a pick your battles thing. I recall my parents "fights" when dad set limits. I also admit to doing a lot of things in my own marriage to "keep the peace" rather than upset the kids with arguing. But I have to admit it was co-dependent/enabling behavior.

It was more peaceful for my father to just give in to my mother, but the issue was that appeasement didn't last long before the next "need". I think it was more about " I need this, or you to do this, or this to happen in order to be happy, but when whatever it was happened, she wasn't happy so it was on to the next thing. It's a string of her projecting the reason for her unhappiness on to other things, or people but the source of it was her own feelings. Appeasement didn't work to change those.

Which may explain why, no matter how many times you wash the dishes so she can go out and play, you're still  the "abusive" one.

I think if your #1 goal is to stay married no matter what, then this approach may work, albeit at some emotional cost to you. Changing your behavior in this involves risks. Risks of divorce, possibly risk of things getting better, but there is likely to be conflict at first. Timing also makes a difference. The kids will get older. It might be easier to make changes when they are grown.

[Enabler]

The risk of divorce is real and we're already some way down that route with regards to the easy paperwork (petitioning). I would hope that my behaviour demonstrates that she can have the divorce if she wants it and I'm not stopping her in that respects, but that has to be her work not mine. With regards to other behaviours I'm playing 'whack a mole' picking them off one by one in a way that can never be argued as anything but reasonable... I suppose I act in a manner where should I be made to be accountable in the court of local flying monkeys I could fully account for my actions in an evidenced based manner. e.g. I can't dictate who she spends time with or whether or not she has an affair, but I can shine a light on her gaining money by deception / squandering family resources and prevent myself enabling that. If someone was to enquire why I was being financially abusive I would be able to explain myself fully and I can't imagine that would be a very long conversation to pop a massive hole in that delusional bubble. She may or may not attempt to recycle however there will be certain behaviours that have to be shed before I will allow myself to participate in that.

I suppose she can have a practical/functional marriage which requires a cat and mouse game of splat the rat as she continues to pursuit he desire to over consume family resources and me enforcing reasonableness... or she can have an actual marriage where those things aren't welcome. I believe the former will become frustrating, but the latter requires self reflection she doesn't have. Even a divorce requires elements of responsibility and financial management she's not likely to want to adopt... which leaves her somewhat boxed in by her own behaviours and choices. I've made it pretty difficult for her to pin any of the consequences on me or my actions such that they can ever be deemed 'unreasonable'. I'm sure she can try but I feel somewhat teflon since any argument she might have will be reliant solely on her 'feelings' rather than any kind of facts. e.g. she may well moan that she has to work now, however I wasn't even aware of her applying to jobs, I was never told. It was her lawyer that told her that she had an obligation to maximise her income, not me. It was her choice to up her hours to 4 days a week not mine (no doubt after she moaned to others who helped facilitate more hours being available). It was her choice to divorce, not mine.

Enabler

[formflier]

  However, I know now that I have to lead with action rather than rhetoric.

Is "no" an action or rhetoric?

What about respecting her choices and the consequences of her choices?

said another way.

If she chooses to earn "joy" as a pursuit of life, I don't understand how others (including Enabler) don't let her experience spending that joy as well.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  It was her lawyer that told her that she had an obligation to maximise her income, not me.

This is good on the good better best scale.

Wouldn't it be best for her to figure this out on her own without any sort of income that is not derived from her work?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

We have to work within the realms of reality though and it takes time and mistakes when flying monkeys are reassuring you otherwise. I mean take a typical example...

Jan 16 - flying monkey #1 tells you that you can get whatever you like when you divorce, the world is great, you get free money and the streets are paved with gold.
Jan 17 - W gets a free into session with lawyer who tells her a few things she needs to know.

If each moment of enlightenment takes a year... well... that's a long time. She doesn't hang out with people who will tell her what she needs to hear... I guess also, if you 'know' someone desperately needs surgery to solve a huge debilitating health issue (me abusing her), you don't tell them how painful recovery is do you. "Hu, you desperately need to leave Enabler but your life is going to suck balls soo much you'll wish you'd never left". Similarly if you're a cuckoo desperate to get in someone else's nest (pants) you're not really inclined to paint a particularly honest picture of divorce either, especially if you believe that you're going to be in there making everything rosy for her.

In an idealistic world she would be left the time and space to come to her own conclusions but she's not... and given that time, my W would sooner spend it telling herself lies and warping the narrative around her dysfunction than come to any eureka moments. I certainly hear you re "spending joy" however I can't stop her accessing funds that she's perfectly entitled to access given they are joint assets even if those joint assets are offsetting liabilities... without adding fuel to a conflict fire. The best measure I can come up with at the moment is for her to at least take responsibility for withdrawing those funds from her savings and it being visible (the funds are in her savings) that she and only she removed the money from savings to support any excess spending rather than me enabling it. Again, my fingerprints are not on it.

Enabler

[formflier]

  Again, my fingerprints are not on it.
 

Are they not?  (perhaps that's a bit strong)

Are you allowing her to completely experience what it's like to earn and spend "joy"?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I'll admit I haven't, I agree... but I'm getting there within the bounds of not weaponising my own income, and within the bounds of being reasonable as defined by me, rather than defined by her and her ill informed supporters. Her adopting a vocational career isn't 'bad' and therefore not something I would ever want to 'punish'... lying and cheating to gain access to greater share of family resources in 'bad' and dysfunctional. That I am stopping.

 

[formflier]

I'll admit I haven't, I agree... but I'm getting there within the bounds of not weaponising my own income, 

What's the difference in weaponizing and a boundary?

What's the difference between weaponizing and a "tool"?

You know you what's about to happen..right?

https://youtu.be/4iWvedIhWjM

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Enabler, you’ve been in the position of tolerating your wife’s pursuit of an outside relationship and her neglect of familial responsibilities for what, two years now?

I understand that you don’t want to uproot your kids, have less time with them due to a custody arrangement, have them in more contact with the other man—nor do you want to deal with the myriad financial constraints that pursuing a divorce would entail.

My question for you is what cost is the current strategy enacting upon you personally: emotionally, physically, psychologically? And how do you think it may be impacting your children?

[empath]

Enabler, how much of the joint income is she entitled to?

When my h told me that he was moving out, he withdrew all the funds from our joint accounts. Legally, he was not entitled to the full amount in the accounts; of course, he thought he was. I was left with nothing - and without a coparent to help with employment logistics.

I had seen the signs and had a small emergency stash of cash that I used until I got some assistance set up. That gave me the ability to provide for my daughter's basic needs so she wasn't so afraid. My h was not thinking clearly at the time and his needs were the only thing that mattered to him. The lawyer that my h met with told him that he needs to be financially open. I have no clue about his finances now.

When my h bought a car last year, he had to tell our insurance company about our living situation. They separated some of our policies, and I don't have access to the insurance on the car that I drive. The insurance company is keeping an eye on the policy now - and h hasn't even filed anything.

Ew has filed the preliminary paperwork for the divorce proceedings. In this type of situation, it is expected and normal that there would be some financial boundaries in place for both parties' protection.

[Cat Familiar]

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