Help needed in responding

[Ray2017]

Still in our cycles of ups and downs.  We had a really good stretch of about 10 days (on vacation and immediately after).  I knew it wouldn't last and it didn't.  Lots of dysregulation with rage mixed in for nearly the last week - with some good moments, too, to be fair.  However, this has been a particularly difficult morning; stuff with his family.  I could have handled it better, but after a week I'm losing patience (I was not happy when he threw his keys when he got home; I did JADE a bit before I caught myself).  He's been emailing me at work, I did try and use SET(ish): 'I'm sorry you are so upset; I don't know exactly how alone and uncared for you feel, but I can use my imagination, and it must be terrible.  Please remember that (this person) asked to get together with you and wants to be your friend - why not text him and arrange something this afternoon?'  Now he keeps emailing me with things along the lines of 'when I'm dead let them know their lack of care contributed'...  I am all for validating, but this is totally invalid in my opinion.  But if I don't respond, I get included in the 'painted black' section of the family.  Suggestions, even for the future?  This is pretty common, unfortunately, as it probably is for many others here.  Thank you in advance! 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Birddog]

MC shared strategy with me yesterday. Tirades are nonproductive, easy to get drawn in.

Start with “what’s bothering you, what do you really need right now.”

If it continues, say “let’s take a break, when you are ready to express what you really need, I’ll be in the other room.”

Just one Idea, sure others have thoughts.

[Witz_End]

I think maybe let him vent it out as Birddog suggested.  When my wife is upset and painting someone else black, what she seems to need is to let it all out.  If you stop that up by contradicting her perception or trying to correct it, all that does is turn it on you.  It's better to patiently sit and just be an ear.

At some point after the emotions are vented, there may be opportunities to *carefully* address the fact that this third person does care, but right now you are not going to be able to change the "feeling=reality."

Validating someone does not mean lying... at least, in my book.  There is a difference between validating feelings and validating fact/reality.  You can validate how your partner feels and word things in ways that focus on what is felt and let most of the talking happen from their side.

[Ray2017]

I am letting him vent and in no way offering a different opinion on his family's behavior, though I can see right through his projected accusations to his family of being self-centered and entitled.  It's more of the not-so veiled references to suicide that get me - especially when I'm at work and he's home with our young children.  It's always been bluster (no actual suicide attempts yet; though he continually talks about the major regret he has from NOT killing himself earlier; I just love that one), but as much as I don't want to react ("getting off his roller coaster" as my new therapist says) I worry so much about what's going on with the kids around - how bad is he?  Do I leave work?  But also don't want to get stuck in the drama if it's actually nothing.  I hope this clarification helps, and thanks for the responses!  It helps!

[Birddog]

I’ve called for health and welfare on suicidal ideation, would take all threats seriously.

Coincidentally, spouse got the hint, too much of a risk for all involved.

[Ray2017]

I know I’m going to make it sound like I’m stuck (and I know no one’s really stuck- there are always choices; just not necessarily ideal ones)- when I’ve expressed concerns over the suicidal ideations in the past, I get split instantly and am told that per his therapist,  he is supposed to tell his wife everything and I (he) guess  that’s not true; I should be a real wife, and it goes on and on. So now I tend to react with a “sorry you feel so awful!” and hope for the best, while trying to monitor things as best I can, which can be hard to do when I’m not present. I know I have the choice of still expressing concern, going home (mainly for the kids), but it tends to escalate, rather than deescalate things. If it weren’t for the kids I’d just let him be, honestly, and what happens happens. But I’m no way do I want to allow or be culpable in allowing bad things to happen around them. Anyone please feel free to tell me to get my head out of my rear end and give me a tough talking to. I’m sure I need it.

[Witz_End]

Anyone please feel free to tell me to get my head out of my rear end and give me a tough talking to. I’m sure I need it.

We all feel that way at times.  I really have no answer on the suicide front.  In my mind, at least, it is a major dilemma.

The last round of potential suicide drama with my wife was a mess.  It led to a situation in which I felt I had to actually stop her from leaving, taking the keys out of the vehicle.  In the process, I had to get past her and ended up tugging her too hard to the side, effectively though unintentionally tossing her on her butt on a gravel drive.

Talk about an "oh  " moment.  Immediately, I became an abuser despite a couple decades of being so not that.  She threatened calling the cops.  You can probably imagine.

In the wake of that, I decided firmly to just unhook.  If she leaves like that again, I'm not going to say or do anything.  As was pointed out in here in the thread on that, her safety is ultimately up to her.  I may care and I may do what I can to provide safety for her, but there is a boundary and a limit to my responsibility.  At a point, it becomes her choice and her choice alone.

That is a different situation than yours.  The kids being present is a major factor and a very valid concern.  I bring up my story because of the dilemma I recognize... what if I unhook and let her go and that is the time she actually does it?

Birddog has a good point about the calling authorities for a health and welfare, though it is really tough to know how that will go.  I imagine it will make things worse before better... if your coming home escalates things, I imagine he'll be through rooves over authorities.  That adds to the dilemma.

For now I would let him vent, personally, but I would talk to your therapist more about establishing a plan for the next time.

[Birddog]

Without knowing the situation its hard, whats your fire plan, support system?

Another thought, my SO became hypercontrolling when she fealt insecure, particularly because of abandonment issues.  Suicidal ideation was a part of that need for hypercontrol.   Any unaddressed abandonment issues? Going out the door in the morning to work used to be particularly rough for my SO.

[Ray2017]

Witz End- I had read your post about your situation and I felt a kinship. What an awful situation you were in!. I used to prevent him, physically blocking the door when I thought he was going to leave to hurt himself. I totally get that feeling. This spring, After a lot of suicidal (and homicidal) ideation and rage galore, I told him he gets serious, hospital care, or I was done. He did (nearly 3 weeks in the hospital, 2 different programs) and he now tells me, nearly daily, that his biggest regret was not killing himself the day of my ultimatum. So, now when he wants to leave, I don’t prevent him.

My therapist concurs to let him leave if he wants to UNLESS he talks about homicidal ideation (happened more than a few times) and then tries to leave. Then I am to call the police. She was good and called his therapist to report the HI (I had told his therapist in the past as well; he didn’t tell me any actions to take) to take some of the pressure off me.

Bird dog- My leaving for work (or even the night before work) is a huge trigger for my H, too.  My parents are supportive, but they worry a ton, so I don’t tell them details. I’ve only seen my therapist 3 times but I feel heard and she’s given me good tips so far, so there’s that. My plan, at this point, is to try to regain as much of me that I've lost living in the FOG for so many years to get to the point of seeing if I can live with this situation  for the rest of my life. To see if I can be enough of a stabilizing influence for our kids so they’re not forever negatively  impacted by this. My main concern is for the kids well being, which is why I worry so much when I’m at work.

[Birddog]

That’s a tremendous amount of burden. Sounds like you are taking steps to get this under control. It never feels like enough.

My MC has a lot of concern for physical blocking, particularly for the guys. Holy  , Witz End, prime example. For me, she said same for me as well, asked specifically if spouse lets me be able to check out to get reentered. Maybe some good letting him do a time out, 30min, my spouse generally came back to baseline.

Was hospital voluntary, how long ago?  If voluntary, a good step. My SO recognized the need to go, however was released without formal diagnosis, no clue what was going on. Lots of shame, guilt, depression coming out. Heavy delusional thought, hyper-vigilance. Became about making it to the next day till Getting her on stabilized on meds. Ended up doing FMLA unpaid for couple weeks.

[Ray2017]

Was hospital voluntary, how long ago?  If voluntary, a good step. My SO recognized the need to go, however was released without formal diagnosis, no clue what was going on. Lots of shame, guilt, depression coming out. Heavy delusional thought, hyper-vigilance. Became about making it to the next day till Getting her on stabilized on meds. Ended up doing FMLA unpaid for couple weeks.

The hospitalization was from mid-June and he was released towards the beginning of July.  It was voluntary. I think he did it because I was out the door if he didn't; it wasn't realizing he has a *major* problem, as he said the same thing before and after ('maybe I'm not depressed; everyone around me are ***holes').  It was the Social Worker in the short term (locked) unit that told me to read Stop Walking on Eggshells, which eventually led me here.  My H was diagnosed with major depression and PTSD over a decade ago and has been on a plethora of meds during that time; the doctors tinkered around with Bipolar II last year (he flipped and his doctors backtracked).  He did trauma therapy at the hospital and some DBT (it was a great program he was in - I have absolutely nothing against the help they provided; just doesn't work if the patient doesn't accept they are the ones with the issue).  The social worker had been so open with me about BPD I thought they were with him as well; according to my H he asked about BPD and they said he "absolutely" did not have it.  I'm certainly not going to argue with these doctors, who are some of the best in the country.  However, I know what I live with, and to me he's on the BPD/NPD spectrum and I'm playing my cards accordingly. 

He was really aggressive with his mom yesterday due to the mix up (which, in his mind, was way more than a mix up).  She's watching the kids today as we're both at work (yay!  I don't have to be extra worried about the kids for today!) and she told me, quietly, the whole family is on my side, which though said in kindness and support, honestly makes me uncomfortable.  She knows about the depression/hospitalization; I wonder if I should point her in the direction of Stop Walking on Eggshells so she can learn how to communicate more effectively with him.  They're in a pattern (when he's dysregulated) of him being either verbally aggressive or sending aggressive text messages; she gets defensive and reacts; he then gets even more upset (and I get the brunt of it).  My parents have read the book (quietly) and I think it's helped them stay out of the fray; I don't know if it's crossing a line if I suggest it to her.  Anyone have thoughts?

[Birddog]

My parents have read the book (quietly) and I think it's helped them stay out of the fray; I don't know if it's crossing a line if I suggest it to her.

Went down this path with father in law, he had same issues with mother in law, it was digested, he has become an advocate, has some trust issues here still with me, understands I love her.

Sent walking on eggshells for Brother in law to read before coming in for visit,  both he and mother in law didn't receive well. Expect major denial of your the problem, and their relative is fine.  It sounds your MIL sees some issues, she may have some issues of her own needing addressed.  If she is offering support and its helpful, fine, otherwise may need some boundaries.

If have some family support from the laws, count as a blessing, a lot of the times, they can be extension of the problems.

The hospitalization was from mid-June and he was released towards the beginning of July.  It was voluntary.

This is a good start,  the key is they are are going to have to want to see improvement for it to work.  My wife is still upset I took her. She does mention in a very controlled environment she was not well, and needed help, that is all the validation I need I did the right thing. 

[Ray2017]

I do agree it's a dangerous thing to even talk about BPD around anyone (other than my parents - they both asked me a while back if BPD could be a potential diagnosis based on their observations).  My main concern is if his mom actually read it and sees that BPD can potentially stem from childhood trauma/abandonment issues (which he has from his now deceased narcissistic father, as well as his mom, who was emotionally checked out for most of his childhood) she'd get super defensive.  But their communication is just so awful and I know he's not going to change any time soon.  He feels very justified in his anger and aggression with everyone, especially his mom right now.  He told me, as I was going to sleep last night, to make sure I tell his mom when he's dead that it's her fault.  Sweet dreams!   

Does anyone have suggestions on articles dealing with validation and deescalation that do not include reference to BPD?  I'm certainly happy to look, too, but so many people here have had wonderful resources handy.

[Ray2017]

  This is a good start,  the key is they are are going to have to want to see improvement for it to work.  My wife is still upset I took her. She does mention in a very controlled environment she was not well, and needed help, that is all the validation I need I did the right thing. 

I'm glad your wife will at least privately acknowledge she needed help and you felt validated!  My husband keeps telling me that going was the worst decision he ever made (even though the issues he's complaining about now are identical to the ones he had before he went - not that he acknowledges that).  I reminded him a couple times that he made that choice for his family (the kids and I).  I don't bother to do that anymore as it wasn't well received. 

I appreciate you hanging in there with me, Birddog.  It's so nice to have some communication about these issues!

[Birddog]

Might check some DBT or CBT books, some are specifically ramped for BPD, just to start getting familiar. Suspect you will find some benefit going through the material. I have to put a heavy governor not to force it on my spouse though. DBT isn’t universal for just BPD, so suspect safe to leave out on coffee table, maybe with mindfulness books.

I put such a heavy focus on the disease at first, got stuck on labels, learning wellness and coping skills is probably best tract, gives more empowerment to work through the issues, rather than making excuses for BPD. It’s good to know the limitions, but having skills to move forward is important.