Custody Motion Filed

[mama-wolf]

My L filed the Motion to change custody on Friday as I was hoping, and uBPDxw and her L were notified via email (with a copy dropped in the mail).  That enabled uBPDxw to have five days to process her emotions before having the kids again this coming Wednesday.

We have to attend a Custody Orientation together at the court on the 20th of this month.  No one else can come with us...no family members, no attorneys, etc.  It sounds like this is to educate us on the option of mediating over custody as an effort to avoid trail at court.  Anyone have any insight and/or experience you can share on this piece?

mw

[worriedStepmom]

How bad was your last custody negotiation experience?   I would not expect it to be any better this time around.

[mama-wolf]

Well, the custody piece of our initial separation was relatively "painless" because we had a pre-existing parenting agreement.  We signed it several years before our marriage was legally recognized (and therefore before we could legally adopt each other's biological child), because at the time it was the closest protection we could each get to ensure 50-50 custody if we ever separated.  Even if that parenting agreement hadn't been in place, and especially once the legal adoptions had been finalized, I knew I didn't have any evidence that would convince the court that anything other than 50-50 was necessary, so I didn't fight on the amount.

While we were in mediation for the separation as a whole, she did try to argue on the custody schedule itself.  She wanted alternating weeks, but with the ages of our children (particularly S5 at the time), and the difficulty my daughter was already having in their relationship, my proposed schedule was a non-negotiable for me.  The 10 hours we were in mediation was spent primarily on equitable distribution...on how much of the mutual debt--most of which she ran up--I was willing to absorb.  And on how much of my 401(k) she would get.  She gave up the argument over the schedule in favor of the financial arguments.

So, if going off of prior negotiations, I do expect it to be pretty terrible...especially when she will not accept there is any possibility that her parenting is causing the children's issues.  She will blame me for not being supportive enough of her as a coparent.  For undermining her and for not normalizing her unacceptable behavior.  Which is why I'm not going to get sucked into another 10 hours of hell.  Once again, I know what my non-negotiables are, and if she doesn't agree then the court can order a custody evaluation and we can take it to trial.

Still, I'd like to have some idea of what the process itself looks like...what the custody orientation is supposed to consist of (sitting in an office together with an official from the court?), how it's conducted, what's expected of me, etc.  I'm sure my L will provide more information as we get closer, but was looking for insights here if there are any.

mw

mw

[mama-wolf]

It sounds like uBPDxw has split pretty quickly on the family therapist, who got a call from uBPDxw's L earlier this week with some very pointed questions.  uBPDxw's L apparently had to talk her off a ledge because she is now convinced the family therapist has been "in cahoots" with me and "orchestrated this whole thing."  Which isn't true, but that's what she's reading into the fact that my Motion contained specific reference to multiple concerns that have been discussed in family therapy, including:

• Family T's concern about very different behaviors from D10 in my house vs. uBPDxw's house.  This was brought up back in January, but she had specifically raised a concern about splitting of personalities, and recommended monitoring
• D10's fixation on body image concerns, exercising, and skipping meals at uBPDxw's house.  Those behaviors have started manifesting at my house, and she has even begun restricting meals with me (though not skipping entirely--yet).  Family T has recommended working with an eating disorder specialist sooner rather than later so that we can catch this before it becomes a full-blown disorder
• Multiple recent accidents where S6 has defecated in his pants over the course of 5-6 weeks.  As a child who has not had prior toileting issues, no indication of medical problems, and no immediate major adjustments (the separation was over a year ago, no further moving of houses, school year is well under way, etc), this is indicative of new issues
• Recent development of obsessive behaviors from S6  around organizing/reorganizing his room
• D10's consistent withdrawal from any physical contact from uBPDxw
• S6's observation of the behaviors between uBPDxw and D10 causing a concern for harmful impact on his relational development

Also included in the Motion is reference to explosive anger incidents from earlier in the year where she has thrown things in the house, shoved furniture, etc. in front of the kids.  And the fact that in spite of participating in the 10-day intensive outpatient treatment program, uBPDxw remains extremely impulsive and unable to respect boundaries.

My T says it's no surprise that uBPDxw has split on the family T, and more of this can be expected.  I hate that the family T now has to do damage control in order to continue working with us, but am not sure what else I could have done.  I was very careful to only reference things I knew had been discussed and observed directly.

It sounds like there may be a possibility that the Custody Orientation we have to attend is more of a group thing rather than just he two of us.  I still need to get clarification on this from my L, but will definitely do so in order to mentally prepare...

mw

[worriedStepmom]

That's scary, to see all of those things in one bulleted list.   Your poor kiddos.

It is very possible that "family therapy" may be off the table in the near future.  It doesn't sound like the current iteration of family therapy is helping to improve your ex's relationship with the kids - and that improvement may not be possible anyway.  It might be time to shift gears to focus on the kids' time with their individual therapists, to work on boundary setting and how to survive when they are with a disordered parent.

Do you have a parenting plan in mind to propose?

[mama-wolf]

Do you have a parenting plan in mind to propose?

Well, the motion was filed for me to have full legal and physical custody of the kids with limited visitation for uBPDxw until the family therapist determines that the limit be revised.

I could see us getting to a place where the kids are with uBPDxw every other weekend.  Plus some holidays, of course...probably along the lines of the holiday schedule under the current custody order, but with some reduction in duration for the longer ones (like over Christmas break).  And I would still want her to be able to take them on vacation, like when her side of the family goes to the beach every year.

That may all be too idealistic on my part, as far as whether she could handle even that much time with them.  My primary goal is just to enable an improvement in the quality of the time the kids spend with her.  The current schedule just isn't working for that.  uBPDxw won't be able to see it that way, and she'll never willingly agree to it.  She is (and has ALWAYS been) very fixated on keeping things very equal...always tit for tat, balancing the ledger, etc.  And her ego just will not accept that there is the possibility that she is not up to being the kind of parent the kids need her to be.

I am pretty sure one of the things she'll try to argue that the 50-50 split is right, but the the problem is that we're on the 2-2-5-5 schedule.  That schedule was one of my non-negotiables during our original mediation for several reasons.  One of the biggest ones was that, at their young ages (especially S5 at the time), I was not going to go a week at a time on a regular basis without seeing my kids.  And I was not going to subject them (especially D9 at the time) to uBPDxw and her behaviors for that time either.

As among the potential 50-50 schedules that were not alternating weeks, the 2-2-5-5 schedule also meant that the kids had some stability and predictability during the week.  Outside of a few holidays, they could rely on being with me on Mondays and Tuesdays, and being with uBPDxw on Wednesdays and Thursdays.  They knew which friends they'd be able to play with on those days, who would be taking them to which extracurricular activities based on the days they occurred, etc.  And otherwise, the alternating weekends allowed for each parent to do fun things with them.

There's really no telling what she's going to have her attorney come to the table with.  And I'm worried about what kind of uphill battle I might have as far as S6 goes, too.  We're both women, she's his biological parent, and I'm his adoptive second parent (the adoption was finalized before our separation).  I'm not sure how the court is going to behave on that front, and it really worries me.  I feel like it would be so damaging for him to have an arrangement that is any different than D10's.

This is really putting me through the wringer, and I don't see it getting much better anytime soon.  But I guess that's why I'm seeing my T again tomorrow (for the second time this week).

mw

[ForeverDad]

Back when there was equal time (2008 to 2013) I had a 2-2-5-5 schedule.  The CE advised it was better for children under 10 years of age.  In 2011 when he was 11 I became Legal Guardian and I suggested to my lawyer that we'd have fewer confrontational exchanges if we switched to alternate weeks. My lawyer asked, "Do you really want to suggest that your son is okay if the visits with her and away from you are longer?"

As for how the professionals may want to gradually step into more time, rather than full weekends, make them shorter weekends at first, probably starting with just day visits.

[worriedStepmom]

I will be so disappointed with the court if they rule differently on the two children.  You are both their parents, equally in the eyes of the children and in the eyes of the law.

I think you have significant evidence of how they are experiencing harm and how she cannot control herself even after intervention. 

[mama-wolf]

As for how the professionals may want to gradually step into more time, rather than full weekends, make them shorter weekends at first, probably starting with just day visits.

Yes, my L has recommended making a proposal to settle in order to start the dialogue...and we'll start with shorter weekend visits, along with stipulations regarding ongoing therapy for her mental health issues.  She'll refuse it, but it gets things started sooner rather than later.

And my  L was able to tell me that the custody orientation is a group thing, where we all sit and watch some video.  It's about an hour long, and I'm guessing it's about the custody process overall, including the option for a two-hour mediation with a court custody mediator (free service).  Then they give us the opportunity to schedule the mediation session (for a later date).

I'll be speaking about that at length with my T today.  I'm pretty sure I'm not up for putting myself through that mediation session, especially since it would be just the two of us with the mediator.  But if it will hurt my case to refuse it, then I'll go and deal with the emotional fallout with my T.

mw

[mama-wolf]

UGH...I just learned that two-hour mediation session is mandatory.

[worriedStepmom]

I would ask your L under what circumstances you can walk out of the mediation session.  I doubt you'll have to sit there while she sprays insults at you for hours.

[GaGrl]

You can request that you are in separate rooms, with the mediator going between rooms.

Will your lawyer be in the mediation with you?

[mama-wolf]

My L says it can only be the two of us with the court custody mediator for this particular (mandatory) service provided by the court.

I have the impression that we have to be in the same room together, but I will ask about separate rooms at the orientation.  Surely in high-conflict cases--or especially cases where there has been physical and/or emotional abuse--they can't expect that forcing the two parties into the same room together would be very effective.

And to your point worriedStepmom, I will definitely get clarity on the conditions under which I can legitimately walk out without some kind of repercussions for the case.

mw

[ForeverDad]

Even if your legal, emotional and peer support cannot be present in mediation, you can always ask for a short break or two, go outside or to the restroom and call for advice, ideas, practical pointers on what is crucial and what is less important, and additional strategies.

Surely you know this but you do not have to reach a deal in mediation.  Yes, with some things you can relax your terms but it's okay to for mediation to fail, all you have to do is give mediation a sincere chance.

Your theme is what's best for the children.  They are minors whereas your ex is an adult.  Your ex may not have been coached on the right way to describe things and state "I need my kids" whereas more appropriate is "My kids need me".  (I have always wondered whether someone coached my ex, she said it the right way.)

[livednlearned]

my L has recommended making a proposal to settle in order to start the dialogue...and we'll start with shorter weekend visits, along with stipulations regarding ongoing therapy for her mental health issues.  She'll refuse it, but it gets things started sooner rather than later.

How short do you see the weekend visits being?

I'm wondering, too, if the request for therapy can be expanded to other kinds of therapies? Like parenting classes, anger management, as well as her ongoing therapy. With dates attached, so that everyone understands there are guardrails.

I hate to say it this way, but giving my ex tasks to fail helped move the case forward. That way we could point to the relatively irrational behavior displayed -- ex was given so many opportunities to demonstrate his ability to comply with court and he just couldn't.

Ex's behavior toward S, and toward me, was transferred to the judge. When that eventually happened, I was finally (after four years) able to get full custody.

If ex can do ______ by day/date, then we can return to __________ schedule. Until then, the schedule will be _____________.

I think courts like to give the struggling parent ten bites of the apple. The key is to make sure that whatever is in place during that time works for the kids. And that what is proposed for your ex is reasonable to reasonable people, while also being difficult given the challenges your ex likely has with straightforward, authoritative requests.

[formflier]

I really like the plan LnL just laid out.  I think it's important to try (on the record) for something like that, even it it gets shot down the first time around

Why?

Well...there is the assumption here that whatever is assigned or tried will fail (or she won't cross the finish line), so it's important to think about the long game as well.

So "next time" you can tell the courts " we tried less clarity and deadlines last time and it didn't work.  We need more deadlines and specifics this time."

Best,

FF

[mama-wolf]

you can always ask for a short break or two

Surely you know this but you do not have to reach a deal in mediation. 

Yes, I will certainly take the option of asking for a break, if needed.  My L did at least advise me that if I feel it's going nowhere, I can just walk out even if it has only been 15 minutes.  The two hours is just the maximum limit, so we'll see...

How short do you see the weekend visits being?

I hate to say it this way, but giving my ex tasks to fail helped move the case forward

I think courts like to give the struggling parent ten bites of the apple.

My L suggested Friday morning to Sunday evening, so two nights with uBPDxw.  That would put them with me for 12 nights straight, then two nights with her.  They will probably manage to get it changed to Friday morning to Monday morning (which is how the weekends are counted now).

I love the idea of getting more specific in the consent order, though that's not a tactic my L has mentioned (yet).  I will bring it up to her and see what she thinks.  She did send me a draft proposal to send for uBPDxw and her L to consider, but I had to go back and correct some things.  Still trying to understand whether she left those things out on purpose, or whether she just didn't copy them over from our discussion.
 
The whole ten bites of the apple thing just gives me so much anxiety.  It's like she's already had that in our work with the family T over the past year, and I just want it to be over already.  I think our family therapy session this Thursday will help me get a sense for where things are heading.  We will have scheduled the mediation by that point, and I will have a chance to check in on the family T's perspective.

mw

[worriedStepmom]

The whole ten bites of the apple thing just gives me so much anxiety.  It's like she's already had that in our work with the family T over the past year, and I just want it to be over already. 

I feel you on this one.  I'm not happy that we've been in court 2 summers in a row.  We're trying to word this year's custody decree to stretch the time between court visits a little longer, but I have accepted that we'll be back in court (and spending more money) at some point in the future.

Remember that the court's ultimate goal is to find a balance between protecting the kids and helping them have a relationship with their other mom.  It is *possible* that ex will do better if she only sees the kids every other weekend.  If so, that's GREAT for the kids. 

If she can't do better with the limited time, then you don't have to wait a full year to try to protect the kids again.  Ex has been coached on what to do differently.   If she still can't implement that, even with only 15% of time...then you'll end up in court again sooner rather than later.

In our case, we're doing a stair-stepped decree.  We start with stage 1 (for you, that would be your proposal of EOW), and then there's criteria that would drop her to stage 2 without necessarily having to go back to court.  You might sweeten this with criteria that would bring her to stage 3 - what you have now (you know that she isn't capable of making the necessary changes, but ex doesn't realize that). 

[david]

The ten bites makes the judge feel comfortable. I have a friend whose son passed away unexpectedly. The mom had serious issues prior and this made things worse. Over a period of about three years the court did everything it could to get the mom to get it together. Finally the court had enough and gave full custody to grand mom. Mom is completely excluded from any contact with the child or grand mom with the promise of jail time.

[formflier]

I can just walk out even if it has only been 15 minutes.  The two hours is just the maximum limit, so we'll see...
 

I would do everything you can to make it the full 2 hours.  Even if she storms out...I think it makes a statement that you stay.

That way you can present to the court that you tried a, b, c and even d compromises for 2 hours and nothing worked.

Might want to ask if that is admissible.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I love the idea of getting more specific in the consent order, though that's not a tactic my L has mentioned (yet).

Honestly, even with an exceptional lawyer, she is probably not going to experience the consequences of vague language like you will. So you may have to advocate for yourself -- it might be worth asking her, "Have you ever had a case like this? If so, what worked to keep the kids safe and both parties out of court?"

After four years of near-continuous court, I had to advocate for specifics and consequences. I had to problem-solve and make proposals that were reasonable. My L was good, and very busy. I was one of many clients and if I showed up in her office, that wasn't a negative necessarily. She didn't want me to suffer, but she also didn't have as strong of a gut response to the repercussions of vague language and loopholes in the order as I did. Or as my son did.

I went from doing what my lawyer said (essential learning curve) to collaborating with her. "This is what will happen if the order says _______. I need it to say ________ so that when ex dysregulates, I can continue doing _________ without disruption to S12's routine, and without having to come back to court to ask permission."

My custody case was on the higher end of high-conflict so learning this took a long time. I think my custody issues would've ended sooner if I learned this on the early side.

Your case is different in many ways, but one similarity is that your ex has already been given soo much from a therapeutic team to help her stabilize, and there is already a lot documented by third-party professionals to demonstrate who the problem parent is.

All you are asking your L is to include language that describes what happens when things don't work the way it normally would with two stable parents.

For example, you might introduce a graduated visitation schedule. "We start with 8 hours Sat and 8 hours Sun. Mom takes parenting classes, anger management classes, and submits to the MMPI2 psychiatric evaluation. Once those classes are complete, once the eval is submitted to the judge, we re-evaluate overnights with therapists involved in the case. We are also amenable to a custody evaluation if the judge believes additional information about the welfare of the kids is necessary."

[mama-wolf]

In our case, we're doing a stair-stepped decree.  We start with stage 1 (for you, that would be your proposal of EOW), and then there's criteria that would drop her to stage 2 without necessarily having to go back to court.  You might sweeten this with criteria that would bring her to stage 3 - what you have now (you know that she isn't capable of making the necessary changes, but ex doesn't realize that). 

I really like this worriedStepmom...I will definitely ask my L about working something like this in.

Might want to ask if that is admissible.

I had told my L I would endure what I have to for the sake of the case, to include staying for the entire two hours.  She said what happens in mediation is confidential and cannot be reported...but I will double-check.

My L was good, and very busy. I was one of many clients and if I showed up in her office, that wasn't a negative necessarily.

All you are asking your L is to include language that describes what happens when things don't work the way it normally would with two stable parents.

Yes, this describes my L...she is very good and experienced with BPD, but she is also extremely busy and I'm sure more urgent topics in even higher conflict cases can sometimes overshadow mine.  I'm all for advocating for myself and working in verbiage around what happens if certain criteria aren't meet...and what happens if they are.

Thank you all!  The "orientation" at the courthouse is tomorrow morning, and then we'll see how long it takes to get on the calendar for the dreaded mediation session.

mw