If I try not JADEing, what happens is that she will say that she has "won"

[Trobert]

If I try not JADEing, what happens is that she will say  that she has "won" her point of view, that I am a pushover. I had done that so many times, until I realize that she was being selfish. She wanted her way only without respecting my point of view. Had I JADEd, I would be dead, because it would eat me up inside.

Here are 2 examples: She manipulated me into believing my daughters were no good. When she convinced me when I tried to rationalize with her, she laughed when my older daughter and I got into an argument. That was the last straw and that I had been had.

She took my money for "emergencies" and then turned it around for my funeral expenses in the future. When she finally revealed that to me, I turned it around, asking her if she would have accepted me doing that to her. She didn't say anything.

So, while JADE can work, these 2 examples only show me that if I had let her win by dividing my daughters and me and if I would let her deception continue, I wouldn't be alive today.

[once removed]

this is a trickier concept than meets the eye.

the idea of "dont JADE" does not mean, literally, "do not ever explain your position".

like any of the concepts here, youve got to put it in a global context, and with trial and error, find one that works for your unique situation.

for example, for me, not JADEing often means avoiding getting into circular arguments...repeatedly stating my position. sometimes it means saying "no" without a need to apologize or make up a reason. sometimes it means knowing when to listen, and when might be a better time to state my position  it also has meant, for me, and i think a lot of us on this board, not rising to bait. not being provoked, and throwing it back.

Here are 2 examples: She manipulated me into believing my daughters were no good. When she convinced me when I tried to rationalize with her, she laughed when my older daughter and I got into an argument. That was the last straw and that I had been had.

She took my money for "emergencies" and then turned it around for my funeral expenses in the future. When she finally revealed that to me, I turned it around, asking her if she would have accepted me doing that to her. She didn't say anything.

can you tell us about your two examples in greater detail? 

[Notwendy]

You can stop JADEing when you are able to accept that there's no winning in a circular argument and that stepping out of it by not replying feels more peaceful than trying to get her to see your point of view.

Two people can have different points of views. She can have hers, you don't have to share that. Even if it is distorted. Distorted people can have distorted points of view. We don't have the power to change someone else's thinking.

Also, just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. She can say you are a pink elephant and even believe it. But you wouldn't waste your time trying to JADE and convince her that you aren't one. You'd think it was strange. You do this with her accusations because, she says things that get to you emotionally, but they could also be as not true as calling you, or your daughters, an elephant.

It's a boundary thing. Once you are able to stand firm in your own truth, what you know is true about you and what isn't- then you won't feel as much a need to defend what she says.

Think about these two things she says. They are odd and absurd. Sometimes pwBPD will project their own feelings on to others. You know on one level, she's jealous of your love for your daughters. That's weird. But I know it is possible as I have a BPD mother who acted jealous of my affection for my father. Of course, a parent -child love is different from a marriage but in the moment, she feels like a sibling being jealous of another sibling in the family. There is nothing wrong with you caring about your daughters. You have to be able to believe that no matter what she says.

You say letting her "win" would bother you. But by getting to a point where you are able to stand back from what she says and not be emotionally reactive to it, it would bother you less. She can think, or say, she's winning. That sounds like a provocation to me. So she says she wins. But if it bothers you less, then it's just another statement.

[formflier]

Another way of saying this is that you should stop valuing her opinion over yours...especially about absurd things.

I'm not suggesting that you ignore the things she says and there will be trial and error to find the right response (rather than reaction).

"blah blah blah you like the Easter bunny better than Santa Claus  blah blah blah, therefor I have won."

you:  "Oh" or "I see" or "interesting, I'm going to think about that for a while"

Then stop discussing it.

Best,

FF

[Waddams]

If I try not JADEing, what happens is that she will say  that she has "won" her point of view, that I am a pushover.

She's trying to bait you into more conflict, feed her inner narc monster, build up her power/superiority in her own mind. I think I read it described as "elevator theory" - concept being when you push an elevator button and the expected reaction doesn't happen, you push the button harder before you give up? She's escalating the conflict she's trying to start by pushing buttons harder to try to get the reaction she wants out of you.

It's important not to take the bait or give into the escalated provocations, all you'll do is train her to always just go right to the escalations to get the reactions she wants.

Not your job to correct her, and it's okay to let her think those things. Let her be wrong.  Just let her face the full blown force of any consequences that develop as a result as well.

Part of learning to deal with this stuff is learning to "divorce" yourself from being emotionally connected to her in a way where she can provoke you, and learning to do it as her provocations get worse.

Of course, best way to not have to deal with this crap from someone is not be with them to start with. Life's too short, the energy put into managing all this can be put into something else that builds more value and return on investment instead. Then, you end up with a better life that's building on itself instead of constantly being held back by the anchors that these people become on our lives.

[Enabler]

Trobert,

Can you see that you had two different outcomes between the first discussion about your D's and the second one about money? A discussion or an argument can be a bit like a game of tennis, a good tennis player expends the least amount of energy as possible to return the ball to the opposite player hopefully in a place or way that requires them to expend the most amount of energy getting to the ball (or miss it). In the first example about your D's (and I'm guessing a bit here due to lack of detail) you hit the ball as hard as possible back at your partner by telling her that she is WRONG and that your D's are not bad people (my guess is because you're emotionally aroused by her claims). She then sticks out her racket and it bounces straight back at you "They are bad people"... you hit it back as hard as you can again, and so it continues. In the second example about money she stole you placed the ball back in her court with minimal effort... "What would you do if I did that to you?"... she can't tap that ball back at you, she has to think, she has to construct a meaningful reason as to how she would feel about that... and if she comes up with something ridiculous, nonsensical or circular... that's a good time to exit.

In the first example her experience might be that you attacked her with your words (powerful shot), in the second one you asked her to explain herself (precision, low effort, emotionally controlled shot). Ludicrous statements take some serious mental gymnastics to explain, allow her to sit with the effort of coming up with those complex reasons and allow her to do the explaining as to how she's come to that conclusion.

Think about these arguments not in the terms of win or lose but 'how much effort did I waste'. On the whole very little gets resolved in an argument and neither of you are likely to change your stance on the case in hand... so best you can hope for is that you minimise the effort you use reaching the understanding that you have different points of view, but you have ensured that she has had an opportunity to consider why she has that point of view.

Enabler

[Trobert]

With COVID-19, it's been mostly okay with my wife since she either works or studies. Frankly, that's too much different than before COVID-19. She and I have learned how to sanitize everything before using, including tech devices. So, she bought and said I should use sanitizer napkins which I have been doing.

This morning, she saw me just get one sanitizer napkin and complained that I am using them all up, that I won't use the sanitizer spray. Then, she said there are limited supplies of sanitizer napkins and sighed deeply and said that she realizes I won't use the sanitizer spray, instead.

To say the least, these were all assumptions. Instead of getting into an argument with her about something she totally made up, I just let it go. I think she was just trying to get the upper hand again, but I didn't fall for it. Nevertheless, she assumes so much when she wants to get her way. Cervantes, a Spanish author who wrote "Don Quixote", summarized this very well: "la razón de la sinrazón" or the reason of the unreasonable.

Bottom line, I will use the sanitizer spray. I suppose she will complain that I am using it too much! UGH!

[Enabler]

What would happen if you determined what was and wasn't a reasonable use of napkins... or better still, what was and wasn't a reasonable level of precaution, and stick with that. When she questions your "reasonable" use of sanitary products, ask her to justify her reasoning, 'drop shot just over the net'.