While Still Undecided and Trying, Also Speaking to Div Attorney — Help, Please

[UBPDHelp]

I’m still trying to decide what to do, but most days don’t think there’s a path forward anymore.

I’ve found a couple of high-conflict divorce attorneys, but am having a hard time with a virtual appointment. The courts are shut here (only criminal and DV cases), and the reopening plans will start with certain categories AND that were “on the books” prior to pandemic, so the lawyers have both put a temporary hold on taking on new clients. The states plan has 4 level reopening and targeted for end of month to mid-June, as of right now, but they’ve bumped a few times already so who knows. I think lawyers are level 2 or 3.

So, I’m just prepping what to ask, BUT can use thoughts on how to approach uBPD possibility and when to do so. Part of me thinks wait — sounds nutty, let them know the global issues, specific concerns, etc.  part of me feels that the u BPD/NPD is so central to what’s wrong, I need to start there.

Can you share thoughts?

I’m going to post this same concern on the divorce board for their thoughts, but haven’t settled where I belong yet.

[UBPDHelp]

Hello all,

I’m popping over from the Conflicted board, but am contemplating divorce as well.

I’m still trying to decide what to do, but most days don’t think there’s a path forward anymore.

I’ve found a couple of high-conflict divorce attorneys, but am having a hard time with a virtual appointment. The courts are shut here (only criminal and DV cases), and the reopening plans will start with certain categories AND that were “on the books” prior to pandemic, so the lawyers have both put a temporary hold on taking on new clients. The states plan has 4 level reopening and targeted for end of month to mid-June, as of right now, but they’ve bumped a few times already so who knows. I think law offices are level 2 or 3 so a bit later reopening.

So, I’m just prepping what to ask, BUT can use thoughts on how to approach uBPD possibility and when to do so. Part of me thinks wait — sounds nutty, let them know the global issues, specific concerns, etc.  part of me feels that the u BPD/NPD is so central to what’s wrong, I need to start there.

Can you share thoughts?

I  posted this same question on the conflicted board for their thoughts, but haven’t settled where I belong yet. They have helped me tremendously but I may be beyond help.


Also, can you share what was the tipping point to your divorce?  Was it a last straw, a specific episode?

I’m struggling with when I’ve had enough. I don’t know if I’m looking for “something” that doesn’t exist. No epiphany. Is it a conscious decision or do you wake up and just know you can’t take anymore?  Am I giving up or saving myself and my kiddos? Probably both.

Why did it take pandemic to get to this decision point?  Is pandemic pushing over the edge?  Is that fair?  Is it a blessing in disguise to now see without a break?  Is it unfair because he’s triggered by pandemic?

I know there aren’t answers necessarily, just the questions I have and welcome any thoughts.

And, of course, any recommendations when dealing with lawyers is appreciated

Feel free to ask any questions.  I am an open book.

Bless you for your help.

[livednlearned]

Welcome and hello  

It's ok to post on both boards if you're not sure. Gathering information about divorce doesn't mean you have to divorce, it just means you are gathering information. And given the nature of our type of marriages, having information is like wearing a safety harness while scaling a rock face. It's a good idea  

Here, you get advice on how to approach the legal aspect of a BPD divorce. On Conflicting, you get advice on how to manage the emotional aspects of BPD marriage (which can be helpful if things come to divorce).

I think it's also good to have some context for this board.

BPD traits fall on a spectrum, and not all people with BPD are what Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse) calls high-conflict personalities (what he refers to as HCPs). A high-conflict personality is someone who has a target of blame (you), is a persuasive blamer, recruits negative advocates, and has some kind of personality disorder. Most of us here with severe cases either are or were dealing with HCPs.

When it comes to the legal system, HCPs can really sink their teeth into the adversarial nature of family law court and responding to that requires some extra skill on our part.

Eddy also describes the spectrum of severity for BPD as:

*not dangerous, generally cooperative
*not dangerous, not cooperative
*dangerous, not cooperative

How would you characterize your husband?

It might help us support you best if we understand how his traits manifest.

How old are the kids?

Do you feel it's safe to order a digital copy of the book Splitting and have the privacy to read it during the pandemic (assuming you are both home)?

can you share what was the tipping point to your divorce?  Was it a last straw, a specific episode?

It was a process. I didn't recognize that what I was experiencing was abuse (and sabotage). It took trying to get my son (8 at the time) help to realize how bad things were in our family. The healthier I became the more clear it was that healthy = threatening to my husband.

From the time my ex started to say divorce to the time I left was about four years. Having a therapist was essential for me. Then I consulted with a few attorneys and gathered information. I sat on that information for a while and followed most of the advice. Then I spent the last year actively putting together an exit plan. I couldn't stop the momentum of me becoming healthier (more self respecting) once that genie was out of the bottle, and the healthier I became the angrier my ex got. Healthy seemed to mean that I would leave him, so I suspect he became meaner in order to protect himself from the changes he saw in me, and the fears that I would abandon him.

Being 10 steps ahead is important if divorce is in the cads, not just to protect ourselves and the kids, but honestly to protect our spouse, too. Because in their effort to win or dominate or whatever you want to call it, they will often hurt themselves. Either physically, financially, legally. Someone with a PD won't necessarily have the extra bandwidth to solve problems and make good decisions, so you'll have to be prepared for their self-sabotage, especially because it can have a bad effect on you and the kids.

I’m struggling with when I’ve had enough. I don’t know if I’m looking for “something” that doesn’t exist. No epiphany. Is it a conscious decision or do you wake up and just know you can’t take anymore?  Am I giving up or saving myself and my kiddos?

For me, it was more like I had this profound tolerance and high threshold for abuse leading up to and during the marriage. Who wants to be good at that 

It wasn't so much an epiphany as it was slowly turning a huge ship around once I reached the end of my rope. Asking questions about whether we should/could/would stay on course was kind of the first sign that some of my more dulled senses were flickering back to life. Like an instinct to care about myself, to want to feel safe (emotionally, psychologically, financially, physically), to feel I mattered. Especially feeling safe.

Why did it take pandemic to get to this decision point?  Is pandemic pushing over the edge?  Is that fair?  Is it a blessing in disguise to now see without a break?  Is it unfair because he’s triggered by pandemic?

There are fewer distractions and less breathing room for a lot of families. Things are getting more concentrated and we see more clearly the strengths or limitations of our family bubbles.

Has he ever mentioned divorce?

[ForeverDad]

Most of us are of a personality type that we keep trying and trying and trying.  In your case, you've been together a quarter century.  Despite all that time the issues are still sufficient for you to ponder divorce.  More time with you trying more will probably not change that historical situation.

Each person needs to decide where their limits are.  One aspect is whether the issues have risen to the level that you see no reasonable alternative.

In my case I was not aware at the time of infidelity, a historical basis society recognizes for ending a marriage.  However, I had a young child, my spouse was increasingly critical, ranting, raging, paranoid, etc.  She was no longer even trying to mend our relationship in between the rages.  My line in the sand was when she started contemplating that I was a child abuser and pondering scenarios to make allegations.  That's when I realized - and accepted - I couldn't fix her or the marriage.

What I didn't realize fully at the time was that my health was being impacted.  And the near-decade of custodial and parenting conflict hit me hard.  I'm still struggling with health issues, particularly of concern since I am in the high risk category for the current corona virus pandemic.

Ponder what your circumstances are, evaluate your practical needs and accept the realities of your dysfunctional marriage.

That said, please proceed wisely.  When you are trying to improve the marriage, sharing information is important.  However, if you think you may have to end the marriage, sharing too much information (TMI) can turn out to be self-sabotaging.  Don't give your spouse any Leverage to hold over your head or limit your options.  You may think you need to be up-front, fair and nice but the sad reality is that divorce is an adversarial process and being too fair or too thoughtful can end up being used against you.

We highly recommend William Eddy's essential handbook, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Of course, this is for you, not for the misbehaving disordered spouse.

[Ozzie101]

I may not be understanding all the pieces at play here and this isn’t an area I have much (or any) experience, but do you think talking to him about divorce right now, while you’re “trapped” legally and physically is best? If I recall, he’s brought up divorce with you. I’d just keep quiet for now. If he brings it up in a serious way, not in a tantrum way, maybe share that the courts are restricted now, etc. But I wouldn’t introduce the topic or bring it up in a dysregulation. But that’s just me. Wiser, more experienced types will jump in!

[PeteWitsend]

...
So, I’m just prepping what to ask, BUT can use thoughts on how to approach uBPD possibility and when to do so. Part of me thinks wait — sounds nutty, let them know the global issues, specific concerns, etc.  part of me feels that the u BPD/NPD is so central to what’s wrong, I need to start there.

Can you share thoughts?

I  posted this same question on the conflicted board for their thoughts, but haven’t settled where I belong yet. They have helped me tremendously but I may be beyond help.

I've posted these a number of times; I think I'm going to keep them saved in a word file for easy access going forward.  

When choosing an attorney:

• Generally, the more experienced they are, the better.  But note that if an attorney should be well-established, given the length of time they practiced, but still has a messy/sloppy/disorganized office, or seems financially unsuccessful, that's a red flag.  
  On the other hand, you don't want someone who seems to flaunt their wealth; that's another.  You should feel comfortable around them, and you should have their full attention; if there are any interruptions, they should be apologetic and polite about it.  Look for a consummate pro.
• Definitely ask if they've handled high-conflict divorces before, and ask for examples.  I would take this with a grain of salt though; I figure most - if not all attorneys will answer this in the affirmative.  I can't imagine anyone saying "No, all the divorces I handle are very amicable!"
• Ask for their billable hourly rate, including for any associate attorneys or paralegals who might work on your case.  Note that a higher retainer up front does not necessarily mean that they will charge more, or be more expensive in the long run
• Most (if not all?) state attorney licensing boards have an attorney directory that shows whether they have any professional complaints against them that have resulted in a censure, or suspension; check this out as well.  I would be extremely hesitant to hire anyone who's been professionally disciplined
• If they push you to file for divorce on the spot (or immediately after quarantine is lifted) consider that another red flag; they should be clear this is your choice, but should provide you with the information to make it an informed choice.
• Ask them the following questions:  what happens after I file?  Where will everyone live?  When is the preliminary hearing to establish temporary custody and financial orders?  What are the judges like in this county, and how well do you know them? Assuming we keep conflict to a minimum, and resolve the case relatively quickly, how much do you expect this will cost?

Other things you should be planning on your own:

• Where will you live after you file?  Do you plan to stay in the house?  How will he move out?  Where will he go?
• How much can you afford to spend in the divorce, without this becoming a financial disaster for you?
• Can you get him out of the house sooner than later?  Should you leave instead?  Be mindful that the realization divorce is actually happening might push him over the edge.  Can you go somewhere safe if he threatens you?

Note that not everything I planned worked out the way I planned it, but I found that I was able to navigate the divorce relatively quickly and cheaply, and didn't make any rash or bad decisions during this time because I had gotten as much information as possible, & mentally planned through each step.  

I’m struggling with when I’ve had enough. I don’t know if I’m looking for “something” that doesn’t exist. No epiphany. Is it a conscious decision or do you wake up and just know you can’t take anymore?  Am I giving up or saving myself and my kiddos? Probably both.

Sometimes, before the divorce, I questioned my motivation.  Was I just unhappy being married and looking for a way out?  Would I find myself in another relationship like this?  

I went back to some threads I had posted when I first learned about BPD, and read about how much I made a good faith effort to try to resolve our issues and make our marriage work; I took all her complaints and criticisms in good faith (even though my gut reaction was that they were not sincere, and she would just look for new things to fight over).  I made attempts to "meet her halfway"... and when I saw that she would simply dismiss my efforts and find something new to complain about (or scream about) a day later, I no longer felt guilty over leaving.  She didn't deserve my sympathy.  

I also looked over journals of the fights and days of silent treatment in our marriage; I kept this in my office at work.  I noticed that I had normalized a lot of conflict; even months I remembered as "good" saw us fighting or not speaking to eachother close to half the time!  

Also, can you share what was the tipping point to your divorce?  Was it a last straw, a specific episode?

I was married 5 1/2 years.  I realized something was unhealthy and wrong about the way my XW acted about 2 years into the marriage.  I learned about BPD, and the likelihood she was "on the spectrum" about 3 years into marriage.  After that point, I was just marking time, staying in the marriage out of concern for our young kids.

Our biggest fights were over contact with my family, particularly my mom.  Note that she made these conflicts internal to our marriage; she didn't make any attempt to resolve her supposed differences with my mom, she took them all out on me, though she was also openly hostile to my mom on several occasions (I read the text messages on her phone), and she would do really spiteful things like throw out the presents my mom would send our kids.  She forced me to choose between my family and her.  

She once admitted that she wanted me to cut my mom out of my life to "prove" my "love" to her.  she later denied she said this, of course.  On another later occasion, on she admitted she found any relationships I had, even men I was friends with, to be a threat to her (again, later denied saying this).  

My "line in the sand" was that I wasn't going to tolerate her behavior toward my family anymore;  I felt I had done and seen enough, and taken her "complaints" in good faith, only to have her ignore my efforts completely, and pick a fight whenever she wanted.  I wasn't going to "normalize it" anymore by accepting an insincere apology a week later and moving on, and if this meant divorce, so be it.  

In the event, my mom eventually came to see us for our sons' birthdays (two months apart; she came the month in between, 1 visit for both birthdays, as my XW fought every attempt for her to visit her grandkids more often).  She agreed to all the absurd stipulations my XW put on the visit: no more than one weekend; Friday-Sunday, XW would pick her up at the airport, etc.  And my XW still picked a huge fight on the last day of the visit, and escalated this in really spectacular fashion at another little kid's birthday party we went to after dropping my mom off at the airport.  

After a week of silent treatment (during which I found a townhome nearby to rent, and a divorce attorney), my XW asked me what I had to say for myself.  When I said "Nothing" she said "Well, we're getting divorced then."  I  think she expected me to cave.  Not this time!  Went through with it, with no regrets.  

Why did it take pandemic to get to this decision point?  Is pandemic pushing over the edge?  Is that fair?  Is it a blessing in disguise to now see without a break?  Is it unfair because he’s triggered by pandemic?
...

This pandemic and the quarantine is stressful enough for non-BPDers, so yes, I expect it's pushing BPDers over the edge.  If you feel your marriage would be tolerable, but for the pandemic, maybe you want to hold off on any decision until a few months after?  

You need to weigh a lot of issues; for me, I considered whether - beyond the immediate unhappiness and fighting - this was a person I trusted enough to comfortably grow old with.  Whether I could navigate the cost of taking care of both of our parents when they got old, retirement planning, etc. with her.  I decided there was no way.  

I also realized I couldn't shield our kids from the conflict; she would openly disparage me in front of them, pick fights in front of them, etc.  I didn't want them to grow up thinking it was normal to live in a marriage or relationship like this, and another person could treat them this way.  That's when I realized a bad marriage was worse than a good divorce.  

I read extensively and talked to people about the likely toll this would take on our kids, custody issues, parental alienation (she once more or less threatened she would do this), and had also paid an attorney for an hour consultation to get an idea what divorce looked like in practice (money well spent).  I did all this before I drew my "line in the sand" mentioned above. 

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Ozzie. Now is not a time to speak with your husband about divorce. Keep it on the DL. But you can start getting your ducks in a row legally.

I’m going to move this thread to the Family Law Board. There are many experienced members there who can help give you direction.

[PeteWitsend]

Maybe just delete this thread, since it's right above the new one, and there will likely be some confusion over which one to post in, especially over time. 

[PeteWitsend]

Maybe just delete this thread, since it's right above the new one, and there will likely be some confusion over which one to post in, especially over time. 

EDIT: combining them works too!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all, thank you all for chiming in. I only have a moment right now, but wanted to clarify a couple of things quickly.

I have ZERO intention of telling my H. The “he” I was referring to discussing with is the divorce attorney. I am sorry if that wasn’t clear. Home 24/7 and I’m stealth and jittery posting so sorry if I messed up in my rush.

Secondly, I posted on both the Divorced and Conflicted board because I wanted two perspectives. The first are all of the people who have or are going thru divorce with a pwBPD AND those in the conflicted board who know my history and have been helping me for the last few months. But the conflicted thread got moved here...trying to fix, but adding to the confusion. So sorry.

I will be back a little later to actually respond to all of the wonderful comments. Appreciate your input and willingness to muddle through the confusion. Thank you.

[MeandThee29]

I understand not wanting to broach that yet. If he's unpredictable, you may want to wait until you have your plans made.

My was the one that initiated it, but I completely knew that it was coming. We had been separated for awhile.

I picked a very experienced lawyer known for both his negotiating skills and his litigation (court skills). I had multiple people tell me that he was a legal superstar and then so humble and kind to work with. A lawyer in another area that he brought into one of his cases told me that he was a gentleman in court, and then utterly destroyed the opposition with his case. He also advertised himself as a specialist in high conflict divorce.

I interviewed a number of them, and some of them were clearly nervous about the lawyer my ex picked. The one that I went with told me that he loved a good fight with that particular lawyer and that they usually went out for a beer after they met in court. IMHO that relationship was a key factor.

[UBPDHelp]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and thorough replies. A lot to wade through.

It is hard to find a “safe” time to reply and I generally only have time early or late, so will try to respond to all at once.

Quick history for those who don’t know me. Married 25+ years, 4 kids (2 young adult, 13 and 10). H is uBPD/NPD. Undiagnosed (I know that’s the “u”  ) but I am fairly confident in this, at the very least excessive traits of each.

I have had red flags throughout but initially they were one offs 1-2x a year. The frequency and intensity increased, but subtly enough and I wasn’t keeping score, had little kids, busy life so didn’t pay as much attention as in hindsight I should have. Couple that with his masterful ability to keep me off kilter during times of dysregulation where you are so relieved to have it over that you willing move on. Only when brave enough to look back do I realize how foolish I’ve been.

While it has been increasing the last 5-10 years, the past year he has been in an almost constant state of dysregulation.  There are some stressors during this time frame that I believe have aggravated the situation, but most people would have addressed more healthfully.

His go to is to rage text or rant about my past. Nutshell is one bf of three years that I slept with in the last few months of our relationship.  This was before I even met H and I was completely honest with H from the beginning. He has used this to shame me and manipulate me.  Honest to goodness what he says would make a sailor blush (no disrespect to sailors!). It is vile and disgusting and except for one simple fact complete lies he believes or uses for control.

I handled these episodes wrong forever. I had enough and implemented this boundary that I will no longer listen. I’m holding that.

H is destroyed by pandemic. Unable to function. Hasn’t worked for 2.5 months, no end in sight. In the six months prior he left, sometimes for days, about 3-4 times. Just stayed in hotels wasting money we didn’t have to waste. My father passed away during this time, my job wrapped up and I haven’t been able to get a new one (jokes on me) so I haven’t been in a place to wrap my head firmly around what to do.

Since pandemic he has broken dishes, thrown his drink a couple of times and thrown remote at the tv and broken it (tv, remote is fine  ).  We didn’t speak for 8-9 days after the first incident. He was wearing dirty clothes and all around basically collapsed. It was nearing Easter so I tested the waters for the holiday. He was so animated for a day or two. Said something was wrong with him. We talked a little about it and I told him that because he saw it/felt it, he could do something about it and I would support him. Lasted two days and he got upset again. This was shorter and he did “apologize” in a pathetic BPD way. Since he has “revised” what happened — idk if it’s for him (so he can live with himself) or if he’s trying to convince me. He’s not. Been there, done that. I’m done believing I misunderstood anything.

I’m nearing that I have no more to give and can’t take more of this. Sometimes I see him sitting on the couch, face contorted, knees bouncing a hundred mph and yelling about neighbors or the tv and feel sorry for him. But I also am so angry at the lie he’s told me all this time. And angry at myself for not figuring it out or not being brave enough to face it.

livednlearned — thank you for the reply.

I would say H is not dangerous/not cooperative to dangerous/not cooperative. I don’t feel physically threatened, but breaking things is dangerous and I realize it could escalate.

I have the ebook and am trying to get through it. It’s hard with him lurking about 24/7 right now.

Yes, he has mentioned divorce a million times. Usually a threat. And variations of it.

He is a legal professional and this is concerning to me as well. He knows the system and attorneys and I believe will manipulate the system any way he can figure to. Definitely need to be prepared.

ForeverDad — thank you. Interestingly, my H didn’t exhibit these traits until more recently. There were some red flags but they were few and far between and he is Latin so he always called it his Latin passion.  I accepted this. We had a lot of really good times so this helped cloud. It has only been since the stress has increased that he has gotten so much worse.

Health was actually something I was going to ask about. I feel my health has been negatively impacted as well by the stress. I have an acquired autoimmune disease, which also makes covid more scary to me.  I’m also an emotional eater so I can attribute 20 pounds to stress. That I could control, but it feels like one more thing. On the other hand, think I’d feel better and more empowered if I regained control. If you feel you can share, I’d be interested in anything more and how it may have improved since your W is no longer there impacting it.

I am not sharing anything with him. He throws out comments. When pandemic is over we’ll separate, etc. I used to get upset, now I just think, promise?

Ozzie — thank you friend. I didn’t mean to alarm you...I am not discussing with H. He gets nothing from me. Believes I don’t want a divorce and will continue to fight to save our marriage. Not only am I not really able to rally that, I’m also growing increasingly angry at his willingness to put us in financial peril, unwillingness to discuss how to address financial issues AND is still trying to plan a vacation. Help me please. Oh and did I mention he bought himself a totally unnecessary “toy” for four hundred dollars. I’m trying to figure out how to pay the electric bill. I’m done with the financial stress he puts on me because he “needs” luxuries. Sorry dude, that void cannot be filled.

Pete — thank you for your input.

The list is awesome and so helpful. I’ll be printing it out when it’s safe to do so. I need help organizing my thoughts and doubly confirmation that I’m in the right direction, so you’ve accomplished those for me!

It’s funny (not haha funny, but unusual funny —found out this was a regional expression and people thought I was laughing, I am not), I have felt exactly how you did when trying to meet half way.

I’ve honestly probably been 95/5 or 90/10 most of the time just wanting the vileness to stop. Feeling relief when it did so just stopped. At some point pushed for more equality. It never came BUT I also stopped putting in more than I was willing. And H always found another reason to be upset with me. At some point I switched from thinking I couldn’t do anything right (what is wrong with me?) to waking up and realizing this is BS. I am not perfect but I am pretty ok. What have I allowed to happen?  I feel like the line just slowly moved, not noticeable day to day, but looking back, a complete shift. I feel like a failure BUT I have to fix this. 

Thank you all. Clearing head...appreciate input and questions. Blessings.

[livednlearned]

UBPDHelp, many of us came into these relationships confusing love with abuse, something we likely learned as children. Learning to untangle those two things is a process, and part of that process is recognizing that there isn't something wrong with you. At the very least it's a process of recognizing that particular voice is not serving you anymore and it needs to be retired.

Personally, I found it painful to love myself and accept love from others  

I mean, to really feel it and accept it.

Sometimes it's the acceptance of love and support that can bring us to our knees. Throughout my marriage and divorce I wept but nothing like the depth of pain I felt when a friend offered to pay for part of my custody battle, no strings attached. Someone being that nice to me, and then having the strength to accept that kindness, is one of the most painful things I've experienced.

So maybe it isn't an epiphany that you are waiting for. Maybe it's that you are building strength (to love and care about yourself), just enough to know what you feel capable of handling.

If so, then keep taking small steps toward caring about yourself. You're already doing that despite how hard things are for you at the moment

He is a legal professional and this is concerning to me as well. He knows the system and attorneys and I believe will manipulate the system any way he can figure to. Definitely need to be prepared.

My ex husband was a legal professional too. A former trial attorney  

Ultimately it worked against him in our case.

Gathering information on how things work where you live, preparing in advance, getting support here -- all of this will more than level the playing field because his capacities to problem solve and think rationally will be flattened due to BPD characteristics.

I felt the more important issue was finding an attorney who would be assertive when countering BPD traits.

Here is a good article to help guide you when consulting with an attorney.

[MeandThee29]

UBPDHelp, many of us came into these relationships confusing love with abuse, something we likely learned as children. Learning to untangle those two things is a process, and part of that process is recognizing that there isn't something wrong with you. At the very least it's a process of recognizing that particular voice is not serving you anymore and it needs to be retired.

Personally, I found it painful to love myself and accept love from others  

I mean, to really feel it and accept it.

I felt the more important issue was finding an attorney who would be assertive when countering BPD traits.

Yes, exactly. Think of all the effort you're spending on your marriage, and how it's just derailing more and more. You may feel safe now, but know that physical abuse begins with emotional abuse.  These relationships can really snowball to the point that you hardly know what to do with yourself day-to-day.

If you spend that much effort on what you can control, you will be much healthier.

I was terrified of divorce. It had been on the table for over a decade. He immediately picked one of the most expensive divorce attorneys in the area. I gathered quite a few stories about that attorney even prior to separation, and he knew that he was both to be feared and not at all my type. So I picked a well-matched attorney that I clicked with. I really couldn't afford him, but there are certain efficiencies in getting someone who really knows what they are doing. It was a horrible experience, but I got what I paid for. We avoided court and got a negotiated settlement when it seemed impossible.

[GaGrl]

When my DH and I reconnected (we had been a teen crush), he had been separated from his uBPD/NPD wife for 14 years but had never divorced. They separated 19 years into the marriage, and it was her decision to move out and live with the latest boyfriend. Had it been up to him, he would never have left -- he had considered it, but he had convinced himself that, after marrying her and bringing her to the U.S., he was responsible for her. (She does quite well however, thank you very much.)

Only after we reconnected did he initiate a divorce. She had told him she would cooperate if he ever wanted to divorce. That was not true. No minor children, each had their own hpuse, own cars, own businesses. What should have been a 30 day no-fault divorce took mine months.

When DH told her, "Fine. I'll have my lawyer get a trial date," it was a different story. She is afraid of the court system - - several arrests for DV on her boydriends, one involving a gun -- and the papers were signed within three days.

I think you have to expect disregulation, stalling, conflict -- and find whatever is the "button" for the BPD spouse. With DH's ex, it was two-fold -- 1) that DH stood from and held his boundary, since she was accustomed to his putting up with anything from her, and 2) involvement with the actual court system.

[MeandThee29]

She had told him she would cooperate if he ever wanted to divorce. That was not true. No minor children, each had their own hpuse, own cars, own businesses. What should have been a 30 day no-fault divorce took mine months.

When DH told her, "Fine. I'll have my lawyer get a trial date," it was a different story. She is afraid of the court system - - several arrests for DV on her boydriends, one involving a gun -- and the papers were signed within three days.

I think you have to expect disregulation, stalling, conflict -- and find whatever is the "button" for the BPD spouse. With DH's ex, it was two-fold -- 1) that DH stood from and held his boundary, since she was accustomed to his putting up with anything from her, and 2) involvement with the actual court system.

Very similar. We somewhat worked out things, then my attorney turned it into a proper agreement. It should have been a matter of months with just a handful of changes. It dragged on and on with more and more changes.

I woke up mad one day, and I'm never mad. I emailed my attorney to "get out the nukes" which meant the threat of court and no more negotiations. His attorney threatened to quit if it went to court, and it got signed.

I'm still spending away on what should have been an easy close-out. I talked to my attorney today, and we are hoping to completely have it closed out by the end of the year. That may be optimistic.  

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp, many of us came into these relationships confusing love with abuse, something we likely learned as children. Learning to untangle those two things is a process, and part of that process is recognizing that there isn't something wrong with you. At the very least it's a process of recognizing that particular voice is not serving you anymore and it needs to be retired.

Personally, I found it painful to love myself and accept love from others  

I mean, to really feel it and accept it.

Hi LNL, I’m sorry you felt that way, but so glad you figured it out and were able to overcome. You are definitely worthy of love.

I grew up in a pretty normal middle class family. No abuse or neglect, maybe a bit busy parents so extra freedom, but felt loved. And when I met my H he presented very “normal” (FYI, I get reminded that this term doesn’t really exist as a sole thing, I mean it very much on a range of behaviors viewed as acceptable by polite society).  There were no huge red flags. I was a bit sheltered growing up and didn’t realize some nuances to behavior and certainly too easily chalked them up as “quirks” when they should have been train blaring, screaming red flags. You know what they say about hind sight.

We managed this normal 95-98% of the time for the first 15 years of marriage. Then things just started off the rails, always righting course fairly easily. But for the last few years, things have just increased.  Frequency, intensity. And this past year has been excruciating.

In the past I’ve tried desperately to get him to see what I see and what he used to see. I’ve had a hard time simply comprehending that he probably never saw those things. That that was all pretend. I don’t know how you get here from there without it all being lies on his part. I felt what I did based upon the role he was playing. When I see this, it starts to make sense.

And if I’m honest, with you, myself, I did a great job of explaining little things away. Those little things I thought worthy to disregard and move along only grew into bigger things. What a fool I’ve been.

I’m getting older, fatter, achier. Worried I may lose my mind. But I still have two kiddos who solely depend on me so I’ve got to get my old, fat butt up and fix this as best I can. I owe them if I can’t muster it for myself.

And, through many conversations here and time to think through, I believe this journey started early in our relationship when my mother passed. I was devastated and believe I clung so tightly to my H (was bf then) for fear of losing someone else I loved that I missed a lot of the red flags and he saw this as an opportunity.  Life got busy with kids and careers, that normal shifted and these signs just got swallowed up and at different points I made choices because I thought it was real and worth saving.

Sometimes it's the acceptance of love and support that can bring us to our knees. Throughout my marriage and divorce I wept but nothing like the depth of pain I felt when a friend offered to pay for part of my custody battle, no strings attached. Someone being that nice to me, and then having the strength to accept that kindness, is one of the most painful things I've experienced.

I know what you mean. I have cried 100s of times reading the posts here realizing that complete strangers care more about my well being than my own H.

So maybe it isn't an epiphany that you are waiting for. Maybe it's that you are building strength (to love and care about yourself), just enough to know what you feel capable of handling.

If so, then keep taking small steps toward caring about yourself. You're already doing that despite how hard things are for you at the moment

I have been working through this and honestly believe I have two things. Fear of further unleashing the beast in him and financial fear. I will never be able to contain his fury, although I wonder if he can find a new target, then I could mostly disappear. Somehow hoping that feels wrong.

Financial fear is daunting, especially in the current uncertainties but surely I can get a job and hope I can expect some financial support from him as he’s been primary breadwinner during our marriage. But no guarantees.

My ex husband was a legal professional too. A former trial attorney  

Ultimately it worked against him in our case.

Gathering information on how things work where you live, preparing in advance, getting support here -- all of this will more than level the playing field because his capacities to problem solve and think rationally will be flattened due to BPD characteristics.

I felt the more important issue was finding an attorney who would be assertive when countering BPD traits.

Here is a good article to help guide you when consulting with an attorney.

Thank you so much. It is tricky because he deals with the lawyers all the time and while I know it is privileged, I’m not stupid. So once I do, I need to be prepared for the chance he finds out.

I appreciate the link...will take a look.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes, exactly. Think of all the effort you're spending on your marriage, and how it's just derailing more and more. You may feel safe now, but know that physical abuse begins with emotional abuse.  These relationships can really snowball to the point that you hardly know what to do with yourself day-to-day.

If you spend that much effort on what you can control, you will be much healthier.

I was terrified of divorce. It had been on the table for over a decade. He immediately picked one of the most expensive divorce attorneys in the area. I gathered quite a few stories about that attorney even prior to separation, and he knew that he was both to be feared and not at all my type. So I picked a well-matched attorney that I clicked with. I really couldn't afford him, but there are certain efficiencies in getting someone who really knows what they are doing. It was a horrible experience, but I got what I paid for. We avoided court and got a negotiated settlement when it seemed impossible.

Thank you MeandThee,

It is nice to hear similar stories. That has been my only saving grace. How could I have been so dumb/naive/blinded?  Why did I keep trying to fix it?  Why did I even think it could be fixed?

Fear is the only thing keeping me now. I’ve worked through other things. I don’t expect I won’t be sad or have a hard time, but right now it is simply fear.

I WISH I could stay married and have an intact family. I wish in that marriage I could have my own beliefs and everything I say wasn’t a challenge to him. I wish I hadn’t believed him.

But none of that is the case. Bitter pill. Some acceptance. Getting scared. Questioning. Sad. I can’t have what I want. Not here. So time to make things better.

Thank you for sharing and for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

When my DH and I reconnected (we had been a teen crush), he had been separated from his uBPD/NPD wife for 14 years but had never divorced. They separated 19 years into the marriage, and it was her decision to move out and live with the latest boyfriend. Had it been up to him, he would never have left -- he had considered it, but he had convinced himself that, after marrying her and bringing her to the U.S., he was responsible for her. (She does quite well however, thank you very much.)

Only after we reconnected did he initiate a divorce. She had told him she would cooperate if he ever wanted to divorce. That was not true. No minor children, each had their own hpuse, own cars, own businesses. What should have been a 30 day no-fault divorce took mine months.

When DH told her, "Fine. I'll have my lawyer get a trial date," it was a different story. She is afraid of the court system - - several arrests for DV on her boydriends, one involving a gun -- and the papers were signed within three days.

I think you have to expect disregulation, stalling, conflict -- and find whatever is the "button" for the BPD spouse. With DH's ex, it was two-fold -- 1) that DH stood from and held his boundary, since she was accustomed to his putting up with anything from her, and 2) involvement with the actual court system.

Thanks GaGrl, my H is in the legal system. He hates going to court. Maybe he knows they’ll see his BS?  But, he knows it inside and out and every trick in the book (he’s told me) so it is scary to me.

I’m not a good judge of strength anymore. I question everything to death so I have to give some thought to how to tell who can handle.

Kind of like the raunchy boy quip — lady on the street, freak in the bedroom (sorry if that’s offensive, I’m kind of offended just typing it!).

Lawyer who can play nice to move things forward, but can take him down if needed.

Fear...the only thing holding me back, but it’s big and it’s real.

[UBPDHelp]

Very similar. We somewhat worked out things, then my attorney turned it into a proper agreement. It should have been a matter of months with just a handful of changes. It dragged on and on with more and more changes.

I woke up mad one day, and I'm never mad. I emailed my attorney to "get out the nukes" which meant the threat of court and no more negotiations. His attorney threatened to quit if it went to court, and it got signed.

I'm still spending away on what should have been an easy close-out. I talked to my attorney today, and we are hoping to completely have it closed out by the end of the year. That may be optimistic.  

This is exactly what I envision. Mentally and emotionally preparing myself.

[ForeverDad]

BPD is a disorder most evident to others the closer the relationship.  Likely people have noticed something 'off' about him in regular everyday activities.  But when dealing with emotional perceptions and relationships that's when it will jump out to many.  Yes, some will be conned (gullible or inexperienced) since people with BPD (pwBPD) have had years practicing slick, manipulative and pressuring tactics.  His hidden behaviors, previously done behind closed doors or in private scenarios, are more likely to be exposed now.

Do pwBPD know how poor their disordered behaviors are?  Sometimes you really can't be sure either way.  I've come to the conclusion that their awareness is in a range, like so much else.  My ex sometimes would claim she didn't say what I heard.  Denial?  Or something more mental such as a state of dissociation?  I recall when several recordings (her calls disparaging me) were played in court and she admitted "that's my voice but I don't remember it".

My conclusion was that we may never know the level of awareness the person has regarding their actions and behaviors.  Just as 'crazy' will never be normal, it also won't make common sense.  Better to just accept that it is what it is and focus more energy on practical ways to deal with it.

[UBPDHelp]

BPD is a disorder most evident to others the closer the relationship.  Likely people have noticed something 'off' about him in regular everyday activities.  But when dealing with emotional perceptions and relationships that's when it will jump out to many.  Yes, some will be conned (gullible or inexperienced) since people with BPD (pwBPD) have had years practicing slick, manipulative and pressuring tactics.  His hidden behaviors, previously done behind closed doors or in private scenarios, are more likely to be exposed now.

Thanks ForeverDad.  I didn’t recognize his behavior as BPD for a long time. He kept things together for the most part — things in life were going well — so he wasn’t dysregulating like now.

That said, he did quit his job years ago when we had a two  yo and I was six months pregnant, leaving us in a precarious situation. He did have some serious dysregulations then for a while. It’s weird how I forgot his behavior. I was tired, pregnant and caring for a toddler so I was rather stressed myself.

But, really the years up until 5-7 years ago were relatively good. He lost a big job (it was pretty life changing, but fell apart) when this kicked up, but still he was mostly okay. But there were a few comments that because he hooked up with me, that’s why he lost the job. I had nothing to do with it, he was speaking karma-cally.  In hindsight, the content of what he said was the worst. But, it has really been in the last year that he has been in near constant dysregulation. He has such disdain for me.

I think with two of four kids grown (but still needing support) he felt like he could redo his life. New job, new life. He can’t figure out the job, but doesn’t want to be here. I fought for a long time for him, but I just don’t think I can anymore.

Only my older kids have seen the level of disorder, but I would never have them take sides or say what they’ve seen/heard because he would never speak to them again. He can be very “good” to them and I think most times he’s a bit hard on them is his dislike for me. Truthfully, my middle kids would probably stay away from him. But he “bribes” them with stuff and charms them.

Do pwBPD know how poor their disordered behaviors are?  Sometimes you really can't be sure either way.  I've come to the conclusion that their awareness is in a range, like so much else.  My ex sometimes would claim she didn't say what I heard.  Denial?  Or something more mental such as a state of dissociation?  I recall when several recordings (her calls disparaging me) were played in court and she admitted "that's my voice but I don't remember it".

I think my H does know at some level. He won’t say certain things in front of kids. He holds himself back in front of outside immediate family — he likes everything to appear perfect.

I have incessant text messages that would burn your eyeballs if you read them. Text message after text message. Cringe worthy. Brought me to my knees. He has sent me pictures of my old bf he found somewhere. He stalks people on Facebook etc. it’s so weird. He’ll say disgusting things about me and old bf and tell me to look at his face (the pic HE sent). And then he’ll check my phone to make sure I deleted it. Once, a pic didn’t get deleted — I thought it had but the phone scrolled as I was selecting them for deletion and I missed one. He found it and screamed at me for having it. That I kept it to reminisce.  He sent it to me and I told him I wouldn’t have had it if HE hadn’t sent it. That’s the crazy bs he does.

The text messages have stopped for now. Right before the covid stay home we had a few weeks of me implementing this boundary — the old bf was thirty years ago, I told H everything when we met, nothing new has happened, nothing to be gained, I am no longer discussing.

I want to believe he knows I’m done with it, but I suspect it’s because we are in close quarters. He keeps saying “when this is over” (doesn’t finish that, but I believe meant ominously), “when we separate”, “when we divorce”, “we’re good co-parents” or “since were co-parenting”. The last two are because there’s not much intimacy. I try to rally, but so much time being called a hillbilly slut doesn’t exactly make an intimate relationship with him all that appealing.  Sorry if this is tmi.

Years ago he made me feel so bad about the old bf that he told me I had to initiate intimacy. It’s never enough, if I step it up, then he tells me it’s not the right focus and forced. Classic lose lose. I’m just tired of his games.

My conclusion was that we may never know the level of awareness the person has regarding their actions and behaviors.  Just as 'crazy' will never be normal, it also won't make common sense.  Better to just accept that it is what it is and focus more energy on practical ways to deal with it.

Agree.  I do question if I’m the one who’s wrong. He does have good qualities, which I lack.  For instance, he’s a very animated storyteller and reads and loves movies. I read, but more entertaining reads, not the classics, biographies generally that he does. He’ll entertain everyone with these in fun retellings of tidbits. I don’t do that. He loves doing things. I do too, but don’t need to constantly be onto the next thing. So he can be a good time. Some is the stress I get from spending more money on concerts and vacations when there are bills. But he’s good time Charlie and I’m party pooper. But, I can have a good time, I just worry about these things and he does not.

Anyway, I guess it’s not important and I have to live with what I do.  That’s what I have to do going forward.

[worriedStepmom]

Agree.  I do question if I’m the one who’s wrong. He does have good qualities, which I lack.  For instance, he’s a very animated storyteller and reads and loves movies. I read, but more entertaining reads, not the classics, biographies generally that he does. He’ll entertain everyone with these in fun retellings of tidbits. I don’t do that. He loves doing things. I do too, but don’t need to constantly be onto the next thing. So he can be a good time. Some is the stress I get from spending more money on concerts and vacations when there are bills. But he’s good time Charlie and I’m party pooper. But, I can have a good time, I just worry about these things and he does not.

My (non personality disordered) ex spent a lot of time telling me that my choice of reading material wasn't worthy and I wasn't "fun".  It took me a while - and therapy - to realize that his criticisms had NOTHING to do with me, and everything to do with him.  He wanted someone who wasn't me.  That doesn't mean there was anything wrong or lacking with me, it just meant he didn't appreciate who I am.

There's nothing wrong with you.  From this one brief paragraph, it sounds like you are fiscally responsible, that you have goals and care about your future, that you know how to appreciate what you have while still being open to new experiences, and that you love to read (and have a good imagination because you read to enter new worlds).   That sounds like a pretty amazing person to me - someone I'd choose to be friends with.  (Do you read romance? - I LOOVE romance)

[UBPDHelp]

My (non personality disordered) ex spent a lot of time telling me that my choice of reading material wasn't worthy and I wasn't "fun".  It took me a while - and therapy - to realize that his criticisms had NOTHING to do with me, and everything to do with him.  He wanted someone who wasn't me.  That doesn't mean there was anything wrong or lacking with me, it just meant he didn't appreciate who I am.

There's nothing wrong with you.  From this one brief paragraph, it sounds like you are fiscally responsible, that you have goals and care about your future, that you know how to appreciate what you have while still being open to new experiences, and that you love to read (and have a good imagination because you read to enter new worlds).   That sounds like a pretty amazing person to me - someone I'd choose to be friends with.  (Do you read romance? - I LOOVE romance)

Thanks worriedStepmom. The kind words are so appreciated right now.

It’s been busy the last couple of days so my apologies for the delayed thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

Just a quick update...

Since my last post we went along a windy path. It started as a small update and then conversation.  The conversation turned to family and he started disparaging mine on things his has done and worse. No names, just behavior. So, I tossed out a couple of behaviors, which were clearly his family. Just evening the playing field.  I want to note that this was not a heated discussion. This was an “us against them” kind that he ultimately tilted to my family, I just tilted it back to more even. No names.

Then he starts with child custody and that I can decide what it will be and that he will pay me alimony and we’ll sell the house and I can take the profit. Whatever I want. We talked about keeping the kids together and sharing custody. I just said okay. I won’t keep them from you.  He wants one thing that will be a fight if I don’t agree. Otherwise he said he won’t fight me on anything. I will give him that one thing even though it’s so insulting, but truthfully I’m okay with it. More on that later.

No raging. No screaming or storming out. But he’s on Facebook texting away. I presume with his gf waiting in the wings. I don’t even care because I’d like to be rid of him. There is a chance he will just agree to this or close to it. I sit quiet now and feel free to move ahead elsewhere.

Any thoughts?  I believe as he’s seeing pandemic wrap up, he’s feeling emboldened.

I would appreciate any advice. Any. This is new.

I will say almost immediately after his announcement, his facial tics and clearing his throat started.

Thanks all...I sit quiet now.

The conversation just ended.

[livednlearned]

It could be that your H is like many uBPD dads discussed here, where he isn't all that interested in hands-on parenting. My ex would fight for more custodial time in court and then not take his designated time with our son.

Even so, I would stay wary about agreeable offers until the ink is dry (and even after) just because he may be identifying in the moment with how he feels and not thinking about the next moment, or the one after that.

BPD is in many ways an expression of trauma. The more traumatized the brain, the less functional the logical side of the brain becomes. That's probably a gross over simplification but it bears out in my experience with n/BPDx. He was a former trial attorney who then became general counsel for a statewide university system. A smart, capable guy. But when his emotional brain hijacked him, he was incapable of solving even basic problems. It was fight mode and he would level everyone around him.

You have to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. You know that his emotions will be up and down, so it's good to know that this is a moment by moment thing ...

[MeandThee29]

Just a quick update...

Well, take it as it is. This may be a harbinger of what is to come, or it may not. One issue with these types of cases is that the moods can go all over the place. It got to be a joke with my attorney to count how many times his said the equivalent of, "We're headed to settlement." His mistakenly thought that getting agreement on certain issues meant that we were nearly there. But there was always another issue brought in, editing the wording, or more. We lost count of how many versions of the agreement we went through.

I had grieved and dealt with much of my denial before the process started. So I was ready to get it done and let go. He was (and is) not for whatever reason. It makes no sense to rack up the legal bills and drag it out when the relationship is over, especially post-divorce. The stuff we're fighting on right now is nonsense. Once he gets that asset, he will have spent most of it on legal fees. Thankfully I'm with an associate now who is far less expensive but is efficient and smart. So my bills aren't nearly as much as they were, but it's still frustrating.

[UBPDHelp]

Well, take it as it is. This may be a harbinger of what is to come, or it may not. One issue with these types of cases is that the moods can go all over the place. It got to be a joke with my attorney to count how many times his said the equivalent of, "We're headed to settlement." His mistakenly thought that getting agreement on certain issues meant that we were nearly there. But there was always another issue brought in, editing the wording, or more. We lost count of how many versions of the agreement we went through.

I had grieved and dealt with much of my denial before the process started. So I was ready to get it done and let go. He was (and is) not for whatever reason. It makes no sense to rack up the legal bills and drag it out when the relationship is over, especially post-divorce. The stuff we're fighting on right now is nonsense. Once he gets that asset, he will have spent most of it on legal fees. Thankfully I'm with an associate now who is far less expensive but is efficient and smart. So my bills aren't nearly as much as they were, but it's still frustrating.

Thanks MeandThee,

I was hoping he really just wanted to go and I’m reasonable, so without too big of a fight. But, geesh I’ve been flung about for years so know it’s ever changing.

That said, today he’s stayed away and then with big flourish ran off with my computer (he uses VERY rarely) and stomped around. No reaction from me. When I finally sat down in same room I casually just said to let me know when he was done so I could finish kid four’s homework with him.  Ten minutes later, he hands it to me with all his searches up. Selling the house, new bank account, unemployment. I have no idea what he’s up to, if anything, or if just next attempt to rattle me. I stayed unfazed.

I reached out to two attorneys via email per their covid request to contact. Hopefully I will hear back no later than tomorrow. Both had decent reviews, years of experience and came up on high conflict search. I’m still nervous they won’t grasp the magnitude. I’m not sure I’m a good judge of who would.

I also reached out to my sister. It’s a conversation due. I don’t know that she will, or should, ever forgive me, but I can’t live with myself any longer for how I allowed him to wedge us apart. Still my fault for not holding this but I thought it would be temporary and little did I know I was just growing the beast within.