Fairy-Tale Father - Codependent

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I haven't posted here in a while.  I'm reading Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I think is a must-read for families with BPD moms.  There's a section in it that talks about typical husbands of BPD women.  It talks about a few different personality traits that the men have eg. passivity with respect to the wive's anger outbursts, wanting to save the BPD wife, and always wanting to do more and more to make the wife happy.

Something that stood out to me was the affect that some of the father's behavior has on the children.  A quote from the book reads that "a husband of a BPD wife may have any one of the severe forms of character pathology, or even schizophrenia.  The key feature is that he is not available to the child...to support the forces of individuation and mastery of reality."

I'm wondering what you all think of the fact that the husband may put so much into helping the wife and keeping situations calm that he neglects his own children to a degree. 

I certainly see that happening in my case.  I witnessed my children being physically abused while I was living with the BPD ex. 

[AnuDay]

I haven't posted here in a while.  I'm reading Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I think is a must-read for families with BPD moms.  There's a section in it that talks about typical husbands of BPD women.  It talks about a few different personality traits that the men have eg. passivity with respect to the wive's anger outbursts, wanting to save the BPD wife, and always wanting to do more and more to make the wife happy.

Something that stood out to me was the affect that some of the father's behavior has on the children.  A quote from the book reads that "a husband of a BPD wife may have any one of the severe forms of character pathology, or even schizophrenia.  The key feature is that he is not available to the child...to support the forces of individuation and mastery of reality."

I'm wondering what you all think of the fact that the husband may put so much into helping the wife and keeping situations calm that he neglects his own children to a degree. 

I certainly see that happening in my case.  I witnessed my children being physically abused while I was living with the BPD ex. 

[Panda39]

I'm wondering what you all think of the fact that the husband may put so much into helping the wife and keeping situations calm that he neglects his own children to a degree.

Sadly, I think this is exactly how things were in my partner's marriage to his uBPDxw and worse I think the kids had to focus on their mom too.  The entire family's energy seemed to have been focused on wife/mom so everyone else's needs were not being met properly.

My partner had all the drama of an uBPD wife, was the bread winner, did most cooking, cleaning, driving...doing...he was the doer.  He was exhausted.  His wife just sat there with her needs, sensitivities, thoughts etc. and just directed everyone.  Jump through this hoop and now this hoop and oh you forgot that hoop so now I'm going to punish you with a rage episode or the silent treatment. Everyone walking on eggshells trying to keep mommy/wifey happy.

My partner thinks that his older daughter did get the better part of her mother and the younger daughter got much of the worst.  Being the doer he was able to do things with his kids, take them places, cook dinner, get them school supplies etc. but I think he didn't have much bandwidth to be emotionally there for his kids and for sure his ex was not emotionally their for the kids. 

Sadly this has had it's effects on his children...manifested in different ways but it's definitely there. 

Things have improved since the divorce and since the kids decided to move in with dad full-time.  There has been more stability, consistency, less drama, dad is more emotionally available, the kids can express what they need and how they feel.  Dad and younger daughter are in therapy...we're hoping to get older daughter seeing someone too but no luck yet.

Panda39

[yeeter]

Physical abuse is a different category.

But for some of the emotional abuse, I think by definition there is less energy for addressing childrens needs.

Many people require high amounts of attention and energy from others.  And the closer you are to them, the higher the need.  Unless you draw really strong boundaries (which is incredibly difficult to do), a disproportionate amount of energy is spent filling these needs.

So by definition there is less energy and attention to give to the children.

In fact most of the time the children are also accustomed to filling certain needs as well.  They just dont know it since they are children.

Even once older or separated from the situation, it takes a long time to be exposed to, and learn from, more normal and healthy levels of neediness (and to also appreciate the SUPPORT coming back to them instead of always giving it). 

(and it is not a gender specific thing)

[worriedStepmom]

It's something to watch out for even now that you are separated and soon to be divorced.

My H's uBPDex caused incessant drama if he pushed back in the slightest, and it trained him to take the path of least resistance.  He (and I) would placate mom, thinking that if she were calmer, it would be better for SD.

However, what really happened is that we were so focused on mom's needs that to some extent we overlooked SD's.  It meant that SD became somewhat parentified, and that SD didn't know who to turn to when she got overwhelmed by mom's massive need for soothing. 

After years, we finally figured out what we were doing and changed course to put SD's needs front and center.  We had to do a LOT of boundary setting with mom and change the way they communicated (via parenting app only, with me monitoring it for H).  The drama got a lot worse before it started to get better.  Because I'm more vocal about enforcing boundaries with mom, SD talks a lot more to me about mom and what SD feels about what mom does.  I really regret it took us so long to shake off the FOG and realize we weren't putting SD first consistently.

[Ulysses]

I'm wondering what you all think of the fact that the husband may put so much into helping the wife and keeping situations calm that he neglects his own children to a degree.

This is interesting.  It got me thinking about the role of the partner in a relationship with someone who has traits consistent with a personality disorder.  I think this question reflects some areas perhaps in need of development for the partner.  Or at least brings up an area for us to think about when we're working on ourselves:  Why is the partner putting so much energy into helping their spouse and "keeping situations calm?" 

Are we protecting our spouses?  Their reputation?  Their ego?  Are we afraid for ourselves and/or our children (e.g. verbal, physical abuse)?  Were we raised to "keep the peace" at the expense of our own needs?  Have we gotten to a place where we are so isolated that not cowing to them doesn't even seem like a possibility?

Sorry if this is getting the discussion off-track.  I don't mean to.  Your question just brought up these questions and thoughts for me.

Physical abuse - I agree it's another level altogether.

[AnuDay]

This is interesting.  It got me thinking about the role of the partner in a relationship with someone who has traits consistent with a personality disorder.  I think this question reflects some areas perhaps in need of development for the partner.  Or at least brings up an area for us to think about when we're working on ourselves:  Why is the partner putting so much energy into helping their spouse and "keeping situations calm?" 

Are we protecting our spouses?  Their reputation?  Their ego?  Are we afraid for ourselves and/or our children (e.g. verbal, physical abuse)?  Were we raised to "keep the peace" at the expense of our own needs?  Have we gotten to a place where we are so isolated that not cowing to them doesn't even seem like a possibility?

Sorry if this is getting the discussion off-track.  I don't mean to.  Your question just brought up these questions and thoughts for me.

Physical abuse - I agree it's another level altogether.

This is a question that I have thought about for a few years now.  I think the BPD mother and codependent husband are one.  He is definitely fulfilling a role.  The two are doing a dance.  If he were not codependent he would certainly set some hard boundaries that would definitely be crossed in short time.  The two would not be together.  This is what happened to me.  With the help of friends and a support group I learned to "stand up" to the BPD.  Prior to that I used to love the rush of the roller coaster ride.

Panda39, how did your husband go from a BPD wife to marrying you?  What were the dynamics of that meetup?  I'm sure he's thankful to have you.  I've been through all of that eggshell walking and it is exhausting.

[livednlearned]

The key feature is that he is not available to the child...to support the forces of individuation and mastery of reality.

James Masterson, author of Search for the Real Self describes the role of the father in the development of a child's sense of self as the following:

"the father plays a pivotal role in the development of the child's real self. Whereas the child must separate the mother's image from the fused symbiotic unity he initially shares with her, no such task is required with the father.

On the contrary, the father-image has always been separate and distinct, coming from outer space as it were; the father is a kind of knight in shining armor whom the child becomes aware of just at the time when the child himself embarks on his first important quest to see the world.

My step daughters (BPD mom) love their dad and simultaneously have an odd contempt for his white knight qualities. They seem to both seek him out as a rescuer and resent him for it at the same time. Maybe watching him repeatedly try to (unsuccessfully) rescue their mom instead of coach them to explore beyond mom's presence had an outsize impact on their development.

Right when the child needs him, the father pops in and out of view, representing a vast and exciting world that is totally non-mother-and-child. His appearances and activities, even though the latter may be many of the same as the mother's, 'rescue' the child from its sole dependence on the mother-image...the father is someone to practice on. He is different and stands for non-mother experience. Exploring reality through him has a special quality of exuberance.

...the child can use the father to test his emerging self-image as distinct and separate from that of the mother. With the mother, the child can often feel sucked back into the mother's orbit in a frightening and engulfing way. With the father, however, the child can experience his own otherness and individuality without the fear of engulfment. Father, coming from the outside world of reality rather than the fused symbiotic state, does not trigger symbiotic fear.

...When father is firmly established as both an exhilarating adventure into worldly reality and a safe haven where the child can test his intra-psychic perceptions about that reality, we can be reasonably assured that the toddler will continue to achieve his own individuality and the important psychological separation from mother, and the real self will emerge with confidence."

It makes sense that if the other parent is preoccupied with rescuing a BPD parent, or indulging whatever fantasies or desires (like having no boundaries), then the child is not going to experience the safe haven necessary to master reality.

The same seems to be true when the BPD parent is the father, altho probably to a much more pronounced degree.

My son (BPD father) struggles to put himself out there, probably because he didn't get to practice this skill with a not-mother figure.

S18 waits for me to do things or tell him what to do. I suspect this is because there was never a fully present male figure encouraging him to explore and initiate and discover, and recover if things didn't go well. I was the parent doing that but he didn't get the experience of separating from mom, and I think he has deep doubts about how to maneuver in the world on his own.

[Panda39]

Panda39, how did your husband go from a BPD wife to marrying you?  What were the dynamics of that meetup?  I'm sure he's thankful to have you.  I've been through all of that eggshell walking and it is exhausting.

We actually met on-line (our first experience with it we had last dated in the late 80's & early 90's...when Madonna & Michael Jackson were big and so was my hair! 

We talked on email for awhile and finally met in person.  We broke all the "rules" and talked about our marriages.  I was divorced (ex was an alcoholic) and he was separated (ex most likely BPD but we didn't have a name for it back then).  We had both come from co-dependence so we had lots of things in common. 

His goal was to be honest about his ex and his situation, which at the time I didn't fully understand but did appreciate the honesty.  I also shared the journey that I had been on...much more than just divorce.  My journey tied into my Mother, my Father's death, and the relationship I had before my marriage to my husband.

I'm not gonna lie the 2 years it took to get from separation to Divorce Decree was not easy.  I thought about leaving more than once but my Partner and I were in love and happy as a couple.  The drama with his uBPDxw and kids was the problem.  I just kept coming back to not wanting to throw the baby (my boyfriend) out with the bathwater (crazy ex/kid issues).

So here we are almost 10 years later, living together with our young adult kids.  D23 is no contact with her mom D19 is low contact so mom makes very few appearances in our lives anymore.  The girls do have issues related to their childhoods, the younger daughter in particular...we continue to work on support for her through Therapy.  The older daughter talks about therapy, we encourage her but she hasn't set anything up.

I relate to a lot of the conversation about a dysfunctional parent and the other parent's focus on them because I did much the same thing by being married to an alcoholic.  I thought if I had drunk dad picking fights with me and not my son then I was protecting my son. On some level maybe I did protect him from the brunt of it, but he was still in the house, she still saw and heard the fights.  We didn't have people/friends over because who wants to come over to drunk man in the basement.  I realize now that my son's job was to stay under the radar and that has had it's affects.  Social Anxiety, depression, he was bullied. 

Leaving my marriage turned out to be a good thing for all of us.

My son got to see his mom be happy.  I was happy, had a social life again, was more independent etc.
My husband hit rock bottom, lost his marriage, time with his son, got his 3rd DUI, went to work smelling of alcohol and got fired...and finally acknowledged he is an alcoholic, got help, and has been sober for about 8 years now.
My son has seen that his parents can improve and change and do better.
My son stood up to his bully at school, went to Therapy for the Social Anxiety/Depression and does a lot of self improvement work on his own. He realizes that he too can improve, change and do better.

I guess what I'm getting at is we have the power to change things, to make things better for us and for our kids.  We can't control the other parent but we do control ourselves and our choices/actions/behaviors/thoughts etc. and those choices can have ripple effects.

Panda39

[AnuDay]

You found the perfect excerpt to explain it all Livednlearned.  It makes perfect sense.  Thank you so much for looking that up and posting the quotes.  I'll have to order that book.  Fathers play a very important role in developing their child's personality. 

Thank you Panda for sharing those details.  I have had codependent girlfriends and it's always an instant connection, it always starts with the two of us sharing sad stories about our past relationships so your marriage makes perfect sense to me.  Thanks   

[Turkish]

I'll have to read the book by Masterson...

I was adopted at 2.4 years of age from foster care, after having gone through three caregivers) by a single mother that almost 40 years later I figured out was BPD (she told me about the depression when I was 17, on the verge of moving out which I did on my 18th birthday).

As a latchkey kid, as my mom worked nights, I was hyper independent.  That attracted my ex to me as her Mexican culture has well defined gender roles.  Yet I also remember resenting the fact that my mom never "gave" me a father. Some of that is unfair. I also remember that I thought it weird that she tried to make me play with "real pee" dolls when I'd rather play with GI Joes. She had an issue with masculinity.  It was understandable when she later told me about her father (beater of wife and children, child rapist of her and her sister), yet that wasn't my fault. 

[AnuDay]

I'll have to read the book by Masterson...

I was adopted at 2.4 years of age from foster care, after having gone through three caregivers) by a single mother that almost 40 years later I figured out was BPD (she told me about the depression when I was 17, on the verge of moving out which I did on my 18th birthday).

As a latchkey kid, as my mom worked nights, I was hyper independent.  That attracted my ex to me as her Mexican culture has well defined gender roles.  Yet I also remember resenting the fact that my mom never "gave" me a father. Some of that is unfair. I also remember that I thought it weird that she tried to make me play with "real pee" dolls when I'd rather play with GI Joes. She had an issue with masculinity.  It was understandable when she later told me about her father (beater of wife and children, child rapist of her and her sister), yet that wasn't my fault. 

My mother was not very comfortable with masculinity either and had a very bad relationship with her father.  I was pretty independent because I had to spend a lot of time home alone.  I taught myself how to bake and cook around 10 years old.  I suppose that's what led to me dating my BPD ex who I saw as being helpless and in need.  She used to say things to boost me up by telling me things to make me think I was saving her from her hopeless situation.

Thanks for the insight Turk