Serious issues about intimacy with my hwBPD

[kells76]

Concerned2020, am I tracking correctly that all the info you are getting about "what his therapist is telling him..." is coming from HIM?

her response to him (he says) is that, "Yeah... something is missing.  She isn't telling you everything".  She, according to him, told him that when they get to the "Radical Acceptance" part of DBT, he's going to have a really hard time with it if he doesn't have the 'whole story'.

I suspect he isn't telling you the truth about what she's telling him.

Lots of moving parts here. Finding a way out of the muddled gray area, where any "info" you have about his T sessions BOTH comes only from him AND impacts you, seems like the way to go. It could look a lot of different ways, as Cat Familiar and babyducks have suggested, and the important thing is that the way forward from this "she told me X" mess works for YOU.

You emailing/calling his T sounds less workable for you, which is fair.

You writing a letter, or perhaps your T writing his T a letter -- still on the table?

You troubleshooting this with your T sounds strong. Your T will have all the professional ethics info to help you know if there is an ethics issue at play.

Glad you're with us working on this.

kells76

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Concerned2020]

Thanks Kels.  I think that me asking my T to help me figure out what to say to his T would be the most tenable, AND having my T discuss/write/communicate with his T would be the best idea. 

I do NOT want to be manipulative.  And I certainly don't want to SEEM manipulative.  I have had very high hopes that he entered a DBT weekly group and is seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist every week.  He's taking this seriously.  He's taking his meds.  Anything that would even feel remotely like manipulation to him would likely sabotage the whole thing.  I am super supportive of all of this, even when he relays the things "she says" to him about me.  I try not to react to what "SHE" says... because as I have suggested, it's hard to believe that she actually said these things. 

I have enough experience with my therapist to know that- with my stated goals in mind, she can say difficult things that she knows I don't want/like to hear, but not ONE of them would be disparaging about my husband.  She will tell me that he has a mental illness, she will tell me that DBT will take time- likely years to see lasting change.  She will tell the truth, without making him seem like a terrible person.  And I appreciate that about her.  So, it's really difficult for me to believe that his therapist is telling him that it's okay to be physically violent, not be accountable for your actions and blame her for having an emotional affair when she calls someone for financial help from the DV shelter.   It's too different from my own experience to ring true...  which is also true for many of my experiences in this relationship.

[babyducks]

Did it make sense when I told you what he says?  about how he ties the past up in the present?  

Yes it makes sense.  you explain it well.

about a year and a half ago we had a member here who was experiencing a similar thing.   Her husband was fixated on a previous romantic interest.   someone she had known years ago.    every day there was a horribly complicated argument full of tiny intricate details.    she would try to explain to him.   she would try to make him see the logic of what she was saying.   she would justify her behavior.    she would grow frustrated and yell.    and it went on and on.

underneath all those tiny intricate details was the same argument.   camouflaged by the intensity and the minutiae was "I think you love someone else more than you love me.    I have to fight against that feeling."

People who are organized at the borderline level do not process the events and information of life the same way you and I do.   often they tend to view today's events through the filter of their past fears and hurts.  

when you have a moment take a look at this link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

from what you are saying, why you went on this vacation and why you made the phone call from the DV shelter has been discussed a million times.   every question has been asked and answered a thousand times.   still every time your husband feels insecure or abandoned or unloved he returns to these events as 'the evidence' that you don't really care for him.    trying to convince him otherwise has not worked.   time to stop the circular argument.   in my opinion it's time to walk away from the topic.

it is concerning that there has been previous violence in your relationship.  experience has shown that once that line has been breached, it's easier for it to happen again.  do you have a saftey plan?  a to do list of what actions to take should an altercation break out?  do you have a go bag hidden in your car or a friends house?   a go bag usually has a change of clothes,  lists of phone numbers and credit cards,   extra charging cords, that sort of thing.

I find myself in agreemet with Cat again.

I wouldn’t let this continue. His therapist is doing a disservice to the relationship and could be putting you at risk. Speak up. No one else is going to have your back.

whatever is going on within his therapy is putting you and the relationship at risk.   you do not want this to escalate to one of you losing control during moments of heightened emotional intensity.

'ducks

[Concerned2020]

I just read that thread linked above.  I could not agree more that JADEing is totally useless.  Circular arguing is useless.  When he gets validation from his therapist that tells him that he's "not getting all the information" from me (about things that have been discussed and argued about a hundred times)... And then he feels emboldened to keep cornering me and trying to push buttons, I really need to just STOP. BREATHE. THINK.  STEP AWAY.  He is at his therapist office right now, so I am preparing myself mentally, emotionally to handle whatever comes my way when he gets home.

I have got to stop the arguing.  Stop giving it air. In the very least, I need to stop INVALIDATING him, and find a way to validate him when I return.

I always have a "go bag".  I always know when it's too dangerous to stay. 

It is my goal to make these things happen less and less and less, as much as they are within my own control.  I can control me and I am 50% of the arguing. 

Guys, I really appreciate you allowing me to vent, I appreciate you allowing me to get this out to another human being so that I know I am not crazy!

[Cat Familiar]

It’s easy to lose one’s frame of reference as to what is normal vs. what is crazy when in a relationship with a pwBPD, especially one who adamantly proclaims their ideas are correct and justified.

We are here to share a consensus reality from the trenches that you have every right to not participate in the craziness.

[Concerned2020]

He met with his therapist yesterday, I was working when he got home (I work from home) and when I went upstairs after work, everything seemed fine.  I didn't ask any questions, he didn't offer any insights... we watched a little TV and went to bed.  Everything was normal.  I was so relieved.

I hope you guys don't mind, but I'm going to keep updating in this thread.  I went back to all of my posts in various places here that I have made over the last nearly 2 years, and I'm talking about the same thing... getting the same advice.  So I'm just going to centralize it here... I'm going to be working at my computer all day today, and I will dive into some of the articles that talk about communication strategies, dbt, validating etc... I can use all the communication help that I can get.

I got a call from my 22 year old son last night... he had some general things to talk to me about, but I also found out that he is coming to my town this weekend, and I'm so excited to see him!  He would never come to my house (he and my hwbpd HATE each other) but I might get to see him when he's in town and that makes me soo happy!

[babyducks]

I think its a great idea to keep posting on this thread.   

The more you post the more others learn your story and about you.  That helps tailor responses to be more specific to you.

The more you post the more it creates virtual relationships of trust and confidence.

And it's just plain old flat easier to post when things aren't in a crisis.   

[Concerned2020]

Thanks for the responses guys, I think I will keep it here

So let me ask the group a question.  He had group on Tuesday, and he had individual therapy yesterday.   He didn't say a word about either until this morning...  One thing about my husband is that it can feel like he's talking in riddles when he's trying to "tread lightly" around a topic.  So, let me run this by you guys... here is what he said...

"I just want to approach you about something, without getting too heavy right before you have to go to work"...  "In my group this week, we went over something called D.I.M.E... And then I went back over the group subject with my therapist, and she said that it sounds to her like you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And I know that you have said that to me before, but hearing her echo the same things you have said has made me realize that it's true.  And I'm sorry that I have put you in a position where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't".    (I nearly fell out of my chair... I told you guys that it feels like she really has become his enabler, this is literally the first thing I've ever heard him say that is true about me)

(the you is ME).  His therapist told him that she can see how some things that we argue about in our relationship sound like a trap that he lays, and I'd be damned if I do, or damned if I don't.

You might be able to see why I said that he speaks in "riddles" sometimes.  I was given no further information about it.  I do not ask questions.  If I ask for any clarity, usually what happens is that we can go down a rabbithole that I definitely regret my question.

Best thing I can do is wait for more clarity... but is anyone here familiar with the DIME decision making process?  I googled it, and I see (sort of) what he's talking about... but I wondered if anyone has real-world experience with it?

[babyducks]

"I just want to approach you about something, without getting too heavy right before you have to go to work"... 

sounds as if he was trying to be thoughtful here.   is that how you read it?

"In my group this week, we went over something called D.I.M.E...

the DIME game is a dbt tool that helps to decide how strongly to ask for something.    right?  it's supposed to help decide about levels of intensity from low - flexible and accepting to high - firm and consistent.

this is from the web.

You put a dime in the bank for each of the questions below that get a yes answer. The more money you have, the stronger you ask.

Capability: Is this person able to give or do what I want?
Priorities: Is getting my objective more important than my relationship with this person?
Self-respect: Will asking help me feel competent and self-respecting?
Rights: Is the person required by law or moral code to do or give me what I want?
Authority: Am I responsible for telling the person what to do?
Relationship: Is what I want appropriate for this relationship? (Is it okay to ask for what I want?)
Goals: Is asking important to a long-term goal?
Give and Take: Do I give as much as I get with this person?
Homework: Do I know what I want and have the facts I need to support my request?
Timing: Is this a good time to ask? (Is this person in the right mood?)

And then I went back over the group subject with my therapist, and she said that it sounds to her like you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And I know that you have said that to me before, but hearing her echo the same things you have said has made me realize that it's true.  And I'm sorry that I have put you in a position where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't". 

 this sounds like a good exchange to me.    did it lower the tension between you two at all?

You might be able to see why I said that he speaks in "riddles" sometimes.  I was given no further information about it. 

in the link from above one of the first things it says is: " our partners are mentally ill and have difficulty expressing themselves in clear enough fashion for us to understand."    I remember reading that for the first time and really being impacted by it.   My Ex often expressed herself as if I 1) knew exactly what she meant and 2) felt exactly the same way.     She often said things as if I was in the room with her and knew what happened when I wasn't there at all.   upstream I said pwBPD process the information and events of life much differently than you and I do.    this was true for my Ex.   something would happen and she seemed to assume that I saw it the same way as she did, or experienced it with her, and knew exactly how she felt about it.   which wasn't true of course.

Best thing I can do is wait for more clarity... but is anyone here familiar with the DIME decision making process?  I googled it, and I see (sort of) what he's talking about... but I wondered if anyone has real-world experience with it?

my Ex did DBT and loved it.   but never would discuss it with me.    I never figured out why.    I felt better not intruding on what was her private business.   but doing that left me open to the accusation of 'you don't care'.   

how are things going now?

[Concerned2020]

Hello Ducks. 

Yes, the interaction with his DBT group and with his therapist seemed very positive this week.  I can see some subtle changes that he's making...

For example, we were going to try to make a super difficult cake together this weekend that we have been buying, and decided to try the recipe ourselves.  We had to run to the grocery store for the items we needed.  He was in charge of certain parts of the task and I was in charge of the others.  When we were shopping for the items for my part of the cake, he argued with me about the necessary ingredients.  Since I had done quite a bit of research on the recipe, I put up a bit of an argument.  I told him that, since I wasn't 100% sure, if he was 100% sure, we could get the ingredients to do it his way (I knew that this would have been a total disaster).  He got a little irritated about it, and decided to walk away.

I stayed in the baking aisle waiting for him to come back, and when he did, he seemed a lot more calm.   (turned out that he had asked a baker how you make this particular ingredient, and my way sounded right to the baker).  We bought the ingredients and made a successful holiday cake 

It seems to me like he always needs someone "else" to agree with me, he does not ever take my word for anything.  Before I met him, that would have been a huge problem to me. I was sure enough of my ingredients and my part of the cake after spending time on it looking up in various recipes, that I knew that if not perfect, I was on the right track...

I don't understand why he can't take my word for things.  He needs verification.  He needs verification from the baker, or his therapist... or sometimes he will go to friends and family.  Always needs someone to verify...

Any thoughts?

[Concerned2020]

I feel like I should start a new thread about this, but I agreed to keep everything in one thread.  As you guys know my husband truly hates my ex husband.  I think I've explained everything about that above.

Here's a huge wrinkle in this relationship.  My son lives in SD, about 30 minutes from my ex husband.  I live about 2 hours away in a different state.  My son has my grandson, who is 18 months old.  Due to custody issues with grandson's mom and my son, I didn't get to see him regularly until he was a year old.  Now, I go visit about every other weekend for the day and I have built a great relationship with my grandbaby.  He loves when I walk in the door and he cries when I have to leave

However, any time that I go, my husband gets very anxious.  I have not had any contact with my ex husband in over a year.  My husband is convinced that if my ex showed up that he and I would end up together cheating on him *UGH*.  So, I have made it a point that when I visit, it's just me, my son, my grandson and son's girlfriend.  Everyone is on the same page.  In order to visit my grandson, that is what I had to agree to.

Surrounding the times when I get ready to leave to visit, husband starts getting really anxious.  This morning, he asked me if I was going to visit this weekend on Sunday.  I said that I hoped to, I would need to talk to the kids and see if it works for them.  He asked me if I wanted to spend the night and "make it feel like Christmas Eve".  I said No, my son doesn't have my Grandson Saturday night this week, so, I would just go on Sunday.  (we previously had agreed that I wouldn't spend the night until husband was more comfortable). And that was all we talked about this morning.  But husband brought it up.  That tells me that he's feeling anxious about this.

Do you have any ideas for me to try to help him not feel so anxious about this?  I need to feel like I had a Christmas with my Grandbaby, I didn't get one last year.  And I want to spent "Christmas" with my kids.

[babyducks]

I don't understand why he can't take my word for things.  He needs verification.  He needs verification from the baker, or his therapist... or sometimes he will go to friends and family.  Always needs someone to verify...

Any thoughts?

a couple.   first, how did the cake turn out and can I get a piece?   

and then let's talk about self-esteem.    if you had to guess, how would you say self-esteem is formed?    and what's its role in human interactions?

his need to verify.    is that saying something about you?    or is it saying something about him?   

most people who are on the BPD spectrum struggle with being wrong.   making mistakes.    being misunderstood.    for pwBPD making a mistake means they are a mistake.   it hits the self-esteem harder.    I am sure you have had the experience of being mistaken about something and having a hard time owning up to it.    I just did the other day at work.    I was having a discussion with someone and had totally misremembered an event that happened about a month ago.   they were right and i was wrong.    nearly killed me to say so though.   

I believe that people who process information through the filter of BPD struggle much the same way.    they have black and white thinking.     if Concerned2020 is right, then I must be wrong and being wrong is not an acceptable feeling for me.    if I go and check I can spread out the stress of being wrong and not feel it so acutely.     I think I said this upstream, but much of being in a relationship with a pwBPD is a contest.   a struggle.   of who is the better person,   who is right,   who is smarter, who deserves more, who is the 'good' person.     when I was in my relationship, I used to call it a 'needs entitlement war'.

back later
'ducks

[Concerned2020]

a couple.   first, how did the cake turn out and can I get a piece?   

and then let's talk about self-esteem.    if you had to guess, how would you say self-esteem is formed?    and what's its role in human interactions?

his need to verify.    is that saying something about you?    or is it saying something about him?   

most people who are on the BPD spectrum struggle with being wrong.   making mistakes.    being misunderstood.    for pwBPD making a mistake means they are a mistake.   it hits the self-esteem harder.    I am sure you have had the experience of being mistaken about something and having a hard time owning up to it.    I just did the other day at work.    I was having a discussion with someone and had totally misremembered an event that happened about a month ago.   they were right and i was wrong.    nearly killed me to say so though.   

I believe that people who process information through the filter of BPD struggle much the same way.    they have black and white thinking.     if Concerned2020 is right, then I must be wrong and being wrong is not an acceptable feeling for me.    if I go and check I can spread out the stress of being wrong and not feel it so acutely.     I think I said this upstream, but much of being in a relationship with a pwBPD is a contest.   a struggle.   of who is the better person,   who is right,   who is smarter, who deserves more, who is the 'good' person.     when I was in my relationship, I used to call it a 'needs entitlement war'.

back later
'ducks

I think I did the quote thing this time!  we'll see...

First, the cake turned out awesome!  It was quite intricate (for me) and it turned out great!  A couple things I'll tweak next time... but overall, it was really good.  Sorry Ducks, I don't have any left to share

Second, if I hear you correctly, I think his self esteem is about him.  I think his need to "verify" is about him.  And if I'm being fair, he does this with almost everyone else in his life too.  He truly, truly respects some people in his life that he holds in very high esteem, but they are the only people I have ever seen him defer to.

[Cat Familiar]

This is an eye opening thread for me. I had previously assumed that the tendency to need verification sprang from arrogance. And that would push my buttons—like “You question this because I said it?” Now I can note that this questioning of my validity/judgment/understanding of an issue/decision/theory might come from his own lack of self confidence.

[babyducks]

Once my Ex was in the market for a new car.   She asked me what I suggested.   And I thought about it for a minute and said a Subaru Impreza. 

 A couple of days later we were at a red light and in front of us is a Subaru Impreza.    Bang.    She’s turns to me and says “that’s the car you thought I would like?”  heavily implying that I am the stupidest thing that ever walked the earth.   Blood in her eye and hair on fire.   

I said, No, that’s an Impreza sedan,  I was thinking of an Impreza sport or hatchback.   You could hear the wheels turning. 

 She’s more than  half way down the rabbit hole of “You Don’t Know Me At All If You Think I Would Drive That.”      This car doesn't ~fit~ her self image.


and NOW, I am saying something different than what she is thinking.  hatchback.   sedan.   what?

So now we’ve got a bunch of stuff going on.   

Driving a sedan would make her look ~stupid~.   Or like an old lady.   A self esteem issue.   

Clearly I don't know her at all.   Clearly I don't see her for the kind of person she really is.   a poorly defined sense of self issue.

How does she get herself back up out of that rabbit hole?    an emotional regulation issue.

And then once she climbs out of the rabbit hole she has to process the fact that there are two different models of Impreza, something she clearly didn’t know.   but that’s executive function and doesn’t work well. 

AND she has to admit she didn’t know that.   she has to say ‘oh I didn’t know there are different models’.   which she can’t do because she would be admitting she wasn't perfect..   Back to self esteem.  back to self image.  back to mature communication skills.

 And then we’ve got the whole issue of maybe you do know what I like and don’t like because you had a hatchback in mind.   but then I would have to grapple with the idea that you do care for me and pay attention to me and that doesn't feel comfortable either.

You know what she did do?   Went and asked a mutual friend if he thought she would like a Subura Impreza and he said … gasp …. Horror….   Yeah you might.   They are a pretty decent little car.

for me and our friend we were thinking about costs and size and maintenance and trade in prices, and that wasn't the conversation at all for her.

her world view ... or the way she processes life is usually wrapped around how she views herself or how other people view her.   

it wasn't about the car.    it was about how the car helped her identify herself.

btw, she didn't buy the Impreza.    because we were clearly 'wrong' about that, and she knew better and was 'right'.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

I had to laugh about the car story. Indeed, the lack of self esteem and the need to express oneself to the world through choice of car is something that I’ve noted as well. My husband recently sold a Mercedes SL550 and bought a new Porsche 911. 

We live on a gravel road.    I drive a truck so I can haul a horse trailer when needed.

I still have not set foot in the Porsche, even though he’s had it for a few months. I don’t like being terrified by someone driving fast on rural roads where a deer or bear might suddenly share the roadway.

Also that way he can be seen alone in his car.   

What strikes me funny is that the Mercedes, though a few years old, had virtually no issues—other than getting flat tires on our road. Those tires with very little tread are no match for rocks and debris.

The Porsche has developed a habit of flashing all its lights in the garage. Not anything to do with an alarm system, and it wears down the battery if unnoticed. He’s already taken it back to the dealership for a problem with the airbag system alert saying it’s nonfunctional.

[Concerned2020]

This is an eye opening thread for me. I had previously assumed that the tendency to need verification sprang from arrogance. And that would push my buttons—like “You question this because I said it?” Now I can note that this questioning of my validity/judgment/understanding of an issue/decision/theory might come from his own lack of self confidence.

YES!  I hadn't seen this before either! 

Cat and Ducks, what is your estimation of the few people in his life that he does not ever question.  (as a side note, my husband was an athlete as a kid, and as an adult, he competed, or coached teams who competed at very high levels).  These people he doesn't ever question- and almost takes on a similar identity to, are exclusively people who beat him in this sport, went further in this sport, or made a lot of money in this sport... aka billionaires and Olympians.

[babyducks]

what is your estimation of the few people in his life that he does not ever question.  (as a side note, my husband was an athlete as a kid, and as an adult, he competed, or coached teams who competed at very high levels).  These people he doesn't ever question- and almost takes on a similar identity to, are exclusively people who beat him in this sport, went further in this sport, or made a lot of money in this sport... aka billionaires and Olympians.

hmmm.   I'm not sure.   I am wondering if he has objectified them.   as the examples he has of "perfect".    and as the perfect ~whatever~ they can never be wrong.  or questioned.

Margalis Fjelstad's says in her book;  'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'   that part of the relationship instability of a pwBPD is "overidealization of others (difficulty allowing others to be less than perfect, be vulnerable or make mistakes" while "simultaneously see themselves as both inferior and superior to others."

which I would say ties back to the unstable sense of self pwBPD struggle with.   

what do you think is going on Concerned2020?

[babyducks]

Do you have any ideas for me to try to help him not feel so anxious about this?  I need to feel like I had a Christmas with my Grandbaby, I didn't get one last year.  And I want to spent "Christmas" with my kids.

I think maybe you are right, this is a big topic and might deserve its own thread.   Would you feel okay with splitting it off on its own?

How does your husband express his anxiety?   and how does he normally cope with feeling anxious?

When you are away, what does your husband do?   Does he go visit some one?   Watch sports?

Sorry for all the questions.   this feels like a tougher nut to crack.

'ducks   

[Concerned2020]

I think maybe you are right, this is a big topic and might deserve its own thread.   Would you feel okay with splitting it off on its own?

How does your husband express his anxiety?   and how does he normally cope with feeling anxious?

When you are away, what does your husband do?   Does he go visit some one?   Watch sports?

Sorry for all the questions.   this feels like a tougher nut to crack.

'ducks   

Yes, I am okay with splitting this one off on it's own.  What he does when I get ready to go visit is become more "prickly" because he's anxious about it.  While I am gone away, he usually will try, and try really hard to keep himself busy doing things around the house.  One time I came home to a beautiful dinner he had made.  A different time, he just acted like everything was normal (like it would be with someone who doesn't have bpd).  Most times he's really happy to see me, I share a lot of pictures and videos while I'm gone (the reason is two-fold, I want him to know that my ex is not there, and I want him to see my beautiful grandson), and then when I get home, we look at the pictures and watch the videos together. 

[Concerned2020]

So, the subject has reared it's ugly head again in the form of his prickliness, his shift in energy, and the entire energy of our home has changed.  He came right out and said it this morning.  he told me that he is frustrated, he feels unwanted, he feels like I married him to trap and trick him into not ever getting sex. 

I remembered what you guys said.  TRY TO JUST NOT MAKE IT WORSE.  Stay calm.  And I tried to validate. 

The validation wasn't well received, I'm not sure if I did it properly.  and I obviously knew this was coming, there is an unmistakable shift in 'the air' when he's frustrated.  But, from here, I really don't know what to do.  There is an entire conversation to be had.  What I NEED is an understanding of the damage that he's done in the past when he shames me sexually.  When he says horrible, awful things to me in a misguided attempt to get what HE NEEDS.

[Diddle]

Concerned2020

He will not be understanding or making amends.  Just this morning he told me that his therapist agrees with him and thinks that "these questions are valid and need to be answered".  I'm just at a loss.  ALL these questions have been asked and answered HUNDREDS of times.  I get so angry when he gets this kind of advice.  Don't these "professionals" know the difference between validating their client and giving them permission to abuse?  I cannot believe that his therapist would tell him to go home, and corner your wife, and MAKE SURE SHE ANSWERS YOU THE WAY YOU WANT HER TO this time.

Ok lets remember that people with BPD often say things that are simply not true. So either your husband hasn't been honest with the therapist, or he's possibly not being honest with you.

I KNOW exactly how you feel, my hwBPD is very demanding when it comes to intimacy, he would have sex every day if he could and I would happily be celibate. He doesn't understand at all that the way he treats me and has treated me has left me feeling like that is the last thing I want to do with him.

Stay strong, keep your boundaries. I have found that I used to bow down to hwBPD's comments in the bedroom about how he wishes I'd do this that and the other. But It was never enough, so he was never happy anyway.
I am swiftly learning that saying yes or no to something with him can often cause drama either way, so now I'm trying to be totally honest and firm.