First Trip Apart

[mitten]

My wife's cousin is getting married this summer out of town.  (It's a 5 hour flight with a layover). Originally it sounded like her siblings were going to bring their spouses and kids, but somewhere along the line only siblings and a couple of the kids are going now.  I think this change had to do with the spouses having no desire to go and the cost of the trip for everyone to go.    We have 2 kids under 4 years old so we would require airfare, a car rental, our own place to stay, etc.  My wife has asked me if I wanted to go... when I responded saying that it sounded like I would be the only in-law going and that it's quite an expensive trip, she she she could take our 1 yr old and I could stay home with our 3 yr old.  Our 1 year old would fly free on her lap and she could split a rental car and place to stay with her siblings if it were just them.  However I know this would be super hard for her to do this without me and to be away from our 3 year old for about 4 days.  It's clear she wants me to go...

I think me not going could be a really good way for us to be a little less enmeshed with each-other. Plus, it would allow me to really press hard on being assertive . On the flip-side, we COULD afford it and I do have a sibling that lives in the area that we could visit...  We could easily make a family vacation out of it so I see her case (although we will be going on a family vacation two weeks later that doesn't require airfare).  What would you do in this situation?  I don't simply want to get guilted into going... which always seems to happen.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

How about you keeping both kids and letting her go alone? For many weddings, kids are not invited ( or encouraged ) to attend.

This could be presented as a well deserved "mom" trip for herself.

A 5 hour flight with a layover would be a miserable trip for a 1 year old, and not too pleasant for a parent either (BPD or not). The child would be off his routine- naps, meals, diaper changes. If he's walking or crawling, he won't want to sit still.

Going as a family with both kids - considering how young they are- is also likely to be stressful - for the kids, for the adults as well.

[mitten]

How about you keeping both kids and letting her go alone? For many weddings, kids are not invited ( or encouraged ) to attend.

This could be presented as a well deserved "mom" trip for herself.

A 5 hour flight with a layover would be a miserable trip for a 1 year old, and not too pleasant for a parent either (BPD or not). The child would be off his routine- naps, meals, diaper changes. If he's walking or crawling, he won't want to sit still.

Going as a family with both kids - considering how young they are- is also likely to be stressful - for the kids, for the adults as well.

I think I would be willing to do this although it would be super hard... something that complicates things is that the two kids sleep with my wife still, in our bed...  the 1 year old will still be breast feeding at that time.  Of course I could work to break these habits but they are somewhat cultural.  Also, kids are welcome to this wedding, unfortunately. 

And yes, it doesn't seem particularly fun to bring kids to this wedding given it's in the summer and I'd rather travel in the winter to warm locations... nor do I like to be told where or how I need to spend my vacation and budget. 

[Notwendy]

Sounds like a no win situation. Either you accommodate this and go as a family or face the emotional reaction if you propose something different. I'd be concerned about her on her own travelling 5 hours on a plane both ways with a toddler and it doesn't sound like she'd agree to leaving them both with you with the little one still nursing and them both in the bed.

[mitten]

Sounds like a no win situation. Either you accommodate this and go as a family or face the emotional reaction if you propose something different. I'd be concerned about her on her own travelling 5 hours on a plane both ways with a toddler and it doesn't sound like she'd agree to leaving them both with you with the little one still nursing and them both in the bed.

Well our 3 year old is going to be enough of a handful and have a hard time being apart from his mom, given he still sleeps with her.  So I'm not really sure I would beg her to take both haha.  A that point  (besides the money) I might as well just go to the wedding too. 

My wife is thankfully very high functioning so I know she would be able to do the trip with a one year old, plus her siblings will be able to help on the flight and with the rental car.  She doesn't drink,  do drugs, harm herself, etc.   She basically just has trouble doing anything without me and is uncomfortable with me having relationships with my family and friends...

I thought maybe this could be an opportunity for us to both build courage doing something independently, since it seems others are not bringing their spouses or all of their kids (so her going separately seemed reasonable outside of the BPD lens).   I mean I could totally make a vacation out of it... but if I could choose how to spend my vacation time and budget it wouldn't be on this. 

[Notwendy]

I understand. It's good that she is high functioning and can manage the kids.

I also think the kids' ages would be a consideration for any couple, BPD or not.

Personally, I avoided such trips when the kids were around these ages but if we did travel, it was with both parents. The kids can get out of sorts when their routine is disrupted and so having both parents helps them manage as well as the parents manage. It was easier to travel once they were toilet trained and could entertain themselves ( books, videos).


I thought maybe this could be an opportunity for us to both build courage doing something independently


I think it's a good idea to do this in general, but not the best time. Maybe think of this as a "not yet- but later" idea when the kids are older and easier to be left with one parent and also travel easier.

[mitten]

I thought maybe this could be an opportunity for us to both build courage doing something independently


I think it's a good idea to do this in general, but not the best time. Maybe think of this as a "not yet- but later" idea when the kids are older and easier to be left with one parent and also travel easier.

So that leaves me going along or me taking both kids? 

[Notwendy]

There are a few ways to do this.  On your mother's day thread it seems you have family nearby? Can they help you that weekend if you have both kids?

The hitch here, is the breast feeding. At the age of one, the child will probably wean if she's not around and whatever milk supply she has will diminish. By age one, the child is getting most nutrition from regular food and can begin drinking milk from a cup. Breast feeding beyond this age becomes more of a preference than a necessity. As to bed sleeping- the kids would be fine in the bed with you. I wouldn't make a change while your wife is gone.

I see a couple of scenarios here:

Your wife is afraid of going alone ( but won't say it ) and to achieve this will insist on the kids going with her and continuing to breast feed the baby.

Your wife is OK with going alone but wants to continue breast feeding and so will take the one year old. ( you indicated she could manage this as her family will help her) and you stay with the older child.

You stay behind with both kids, if you are able to manage this, and she goes alone- if she will agree to this.

I think it's fair to discuss the options with her. It may be that there's only one acceptable choice for her ( you all go) and then, it's about choosing your battles with this- go along with this or not.

On another note- is there a time frame for weaning the baby and also changing from co-sleeping? I know that is cultural but even so, I assume there's an age where this stops.

[mitten]

On another note- is there a time frame for weaning the baby and also changing from co-sleeping? I know that is cultural but even so, I assume there's an age where this stops.

Thanks Notwendy.  If it were up to you, which scenario would you choose?

I think our first son breast fed until he was bout 2, so I'd imagine we'll do the same for this.  The co-sleeping bothers me more than the breastfeeding though.  I've been sleeping alone in my sons room, partly because it's so much more peaceful...and partly because I don't want to sleep in the same bed with 3 other people haha.  I should work on transitioning the 3 year old out of our bed though.  The problem is even if we start in his bed every night he needs my wife to lay with him to get him to sleep... then he falls asleep but wakes up screaming for us to take him into our room in the middle of the night... so if that's going to be the case I've just moved into his room and no one screams then... but it's extending the problem probably. 

[Notwendy]

I don't think I could make that decision for your situation- as it's individual to your own situation.

BPD complicates things. Our ultimate role as a parent is to raise our kids to be independent.  This may be harder for a BPD parent who may have poor boundaries.

Bedtime stories and some snuggling is important but children also need to eventually learn to be able to sleep by themselves. All young children would prefer to sleep with their parents. When the child wakes up crying, if they get put in bed with the parents- this reinforces this behavior.

To change this behavior, both parents need to be on the same page. However if your wife is also having the children sleep with her to meet her own emotional needs, then you have a situation in which each person gets their needs met from co-sleeping. Co-sleeping can also be cultural and a preference. If you and your wife have different ideas about co-sleeping, this becomes a relationship issue.

Choosing between the three choices is also influenced by the relationship between you and your wife, and her relationship with the children. Even if she's high functioning with them, her emotional ability to go on her own needs to be considered. She may also not be able to be separated from them at this time.

One thing I have noticed with BPD is that sometimes the "reason" they give for why they want something isn't always the real reason. The "we need to go together because the baby isn't weaned yet" could actually be " I am afraid to be alone". You could offer to have your wife go on her own, but she may refuse and insist you all go. If your wife insists, I think the most emotionally stable option would be the family trip for all of you but you know your wife best.

[mitten]

One thing I have noticed with BPD is that sometimes the "reason" they give for why they want something isn't always the real reason. The "we need to go together because the baby isn't weaned yet" could actually be " I am afraid to be alone". You could offer to have your wife go on her own, but she may refuse and insist you all go. If your wife insists, I think the most emotionally stable option would be the family trip for all of you but you know your wife best.

Absolutely.  I agree with the idea that the "reason" they give isn't always the real reason.  She would never say she is uncomfortable going by herself and being away from me...  But don't we want her to experience this dis-comfort safely (with her other siblings around her) and then realize that she can do it?   Or do I need to go with her on this trip?   As of last night she was looking at a ticket for herself and would have our toddler go for free on her lap.  Her other siblings are going solo, without kids or spouses. 

[Notwendy]

But don't we want her to experience this dis-comfort safely (with her other siblings around her) and then realize that she can do it?

The determining factor is not her level of comfort/discomfort. The main question is- is the baby safe? in this situation.

If you decided to go, it would not be for her comfort but for the baby.

If the baby is safe, then it could be a good thing for her to go alone.

[mitten]

I have zero concerns about her putting the baby in an unsafe situation.  (She doesn't use or abuse substances, doesn't self harm, break things, etc).  Overall, I'm a worrier so I will be worried about them traveling in general.  I will also be stressed/worried/anxious about carrying for our 4 year old son who is not used to being away from his mom.  She will be gone 5 days total.   

[Notwendy]

It could be a good thing for all of you then. You will see that you can handle the older child, she'll be with her family. Your 4 year old might be fussy at first but  then have a grand time with Daddy. Plan some fun things to do- the park, play with toys, maybe some special treats!

[mitten]

Thanks for all the thoughts NotWendy.  The other part is now that she is (currently) agreeing to go by herself, I have some feelings of guilt for sending her alone and not going... 

[Notwendy]

Makes sense to have mixed emotions about this. We feel what we feel. Nothing wrong with feelings- just try to sort out what you want to do.

[thankful person]

Mitten, I think you should take this opportunity to spend some time apart with one child each. Try not to feel guilty about it. I think it will be good for all of you. My wife is the main caregiver here with having the kids in the bed and breast feeding them both. I relish any opportunity to spend time with either of them on my own, but she’s never spent a night away from either (or hardly a few hours) except when our little one was in nicu which was heart-breaking for us all.

[mitten]

Just wanted to let everyone know that our family survived our time apart with flying colors!  My wife ended up taking our 1 yr old to the wedding as planned and was gone 4 nights.  I stayed back with our 4 yr old, but in order to distract him from my wife's absence I took him to my parents cabin where he could interact with his grandparents and be active in a different environment.  I was even amazed that he wanted to sleep by himself in a bunkbed rather than in a bed with me.  We had such a good time and made great memories!

Then, as my wife was on the return flight she started complaining to me through text messaging about me bringing our son to his grandparents... saying things like "you're a piece of work, you can't even take care of your son on your own".  As if she wanted me to sit around the house being miserable and missing her for 4 days...It put such a damper on the great time my son and I had together because I was so proud of how well he did (even sleeping in the bunk bed by himself and catching fish!).  She also doesn't really enjoy going to the cabin and he does so I knew it was the perfect time to do it.  I understand that she was likely a little sad to see us do well without her... I'm sure that was probably the trigger.  Anyway, she was grumpy for a couple days, I let her work through it herself.  I was just bummed that I couldn't really tell her all the fun stuff we did on our 4 days together!

[thankful person]

Mitten, glad to hear it went well! I know what you mean, I always underplay any happy or good feelings I have about anything that doesn’t involve my wife, because I just can’t be bothered with her jealousy. She has invited my Mum to come and visit us in our new house! I was astounded as she’s always tried to avoid her in the past. My wife knows I do what I want now so sometimes she tries to get in there first! I remember your discussions about your wife wanting another child. My wife is pregnant with our 3rd. They are ivf conceived so we both wanted to give all our embryo babies a chance (there are 4). I just wanted to let you know that my wife has been so much calmer and easier to “manage” during this pregnancy, since I learnt all this stuff on here. The kids are doing well too. I’m actually excited for the future.

[Couscous]

She wasn’t just a little sad, she felt highly threatened and responded to these feelings in the only way she knows how — by becoming verbally abusive.

This is something that you need to nip in the bud, because she’s exhibiting jealousy around you and your child spending time with your family, and this is going to get worse as the kids start getting older and therefore less emotionally dependent on her, and as such she will in all likelihood begin to limit how much time your kids get to spend with your family.

I’m not sure if you’ve seen the thread about the Nicola Method for high-conflict behavior. The method utilizes a phrase called an anger regulation sentence which goes like this: “When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong”. What the phrase does is communicate that the high-conflict person did not succeed in making you feel bad about yourself — which is their goal.

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Introduction-to-the-Nicola-Method.pdf

[Notwendy]

I'd keep the happy stories to yourself.
Once on the plane, she was alone, away from her family, away from you. Probably had some uncomfortable feelings and projected them on to you. Sounds like this went really well overall. I agree with Couscous to not let this escalate. Probably best to not give it any attention but also not to give in to her stopping you from doing things with the kids and your parents.

[mitten]

This is something that you need to nip in the bud, because she’s exhibiting jealousy around you and your child spending time with your family, and this is going to get worse as the kids start getting older and therefore less emotionally dependent on her, and as such she will in all likelihood begin to limit how much time your kids get to spend with your family.

Yikes, that is quite the grim warning!  Also, thanks for sharing the Nicola Method. 

[Sluggo]

thought maybe this could be an opportunity for us to both build courage doing something independently, since it seems others are not bringing their spouses or all of their kids (so her going separately seemed reasonable outside of the BPD lens)

In my experience, this courage building does not work.    Over my marriage, my exbpd got more resentful, and at the end any time spent around my family became too much,  I went no contact with my family for 3 yrs in order to prove my love to my wife. However even doing that did not help as I realized I could not cure or control her feelings with my behaviors.  My final straw and realization came when I made the choice not to see my dad in hospice because that's what my ex spouse said would help our marriage.  I still carry a lot of guilt and shame for having gotten to that point.

I am so glad you got to spend that time at the cabin with your family.  My wife had a similar response when she went out of the country and I stayed home with our special needs child. I had my mom come 2 to 3 days a week to help with the care while I was at work. My exbpdw response was very similar to how your wife reacted.

Sluggo