Reversing a breakup?

[Depression = 72% of members]

With all due respect to whoever decided on the name of this board, I am not sure I understand the rationale for normalizing the desire to reverse a breakup with a pwBPD. Doesn’t this send the wrong message and normalize a destructive impulse?

Edit: I would like to clarify that I understand the reason there is a Bettering a Relationship board. My question is why this board is also aimed at people who want to reverse a breakup. My thinking is that people who have been “discarded” would be better served by posting on the Detaching board.

[Couscous]

With all due respect to whoever decided on the name of this board, I am not sure I understand the rationale for normalizing the desire to reverse a breakup with a pwBPD. Doesn’t this send the wrong message and normalize a destructive impulse?

Edit: I would like to clarify that I understand the reason there is a Bettering a Relationship board. My question is why this board is also aimed at people who want to reverse a breakup. My thinking is that people who have been “discarded” would be better served by posting on the Detaching board.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

I agree with you Couscous. I see many people on here whose pwbpd is clearly in the process of “moving on”. There are parts of me that are envious that I was not properly discarded years ago, giving me a chance to sort myself out. Though my children are my world and I know every day that this was meant to be… I do feel like in the most patient way telling some of these people who are early on in their relationship, please get out while you still can. I know we’re not allowed to say that on here. But then again even those of us working on bettering things in their relationship with their pwbpd will always be caretakers to some degree. That’s why we’re here: to learn how to put in an extra uneven amount of effort which is not apparently required in a “normal” relationship. (Not that I would know what that is ). Although we don’t see many pwbpd members on this forum, I do think their community should be grateful for our community which works so hard to give them some semblance of having a good life (although we are working on ourselves, this is the effect I have hoped and strived for… and partially achieved at times). I know it sounds patronising. But I also know the difference we can make in helping our pwbpd’s to lessen the effects the bpd has on their brains (without them even knowing what we’re doing).

[Cat Familiar]

My challenge is staying within the guidelines while at the same time confronting *magical thinking* that if only: he/she starts therapy, acknowledges the hurt they’ve created, finds stable employment, we have the baby he/she wants, move away from FOO, etc. that things will be all better.

People who only have a couple of months into the relationship have no idea of the wild ride ahead.

[SaltyDawg]

I *THINK* I understand the rationale.

If your pwBPD is 'self-aware' and also wants to 'fix' themselves, which is ultra-rare, then there should be a forum for this very topic as if both are present, there is a 98% chance of putting the condition into remission and they can lead comparatively 'normal' lives.

pwBPD are persons too.  They have feelings [albeit 'extreme' in nature], have wants, have dreams, have passions, and not all of them are 'monsters' - kind of like being a fictional wear wolf where they are perfectly normal most of the time; however, the monster comes out and disrupts everything. 

pwBPD are parents, lovers, friends, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, or daughters and they need love too - compassion and empathy.

When they are not splitting, the higher functioning borderlines often are contributing members of society with great passion for the good that they do with a strong moral compass.  I know of at least two pwBPD like this, one is my wife, undiagnosed, and another who is diagnosed and has done great good too.

A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality, one personality is desirable, the other is not.  The question is does the good personality outweigh the bad personality?  Most of the time, no; however, in the ultra-rare instance where it is there, it may be worth saving.

After being on here since September, I have recently come across only one instance where 'reversing a breakup' might be appropriate and that can be found at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355041.msg13189130.

I would like to think my wife is worth saving too; however, I am not even sure on that.  If we ever to break up, I will likely not try and reconnect even though she has worked on her most severe issues; however, the less severe issues she is still in denial of, so I am at a point of diminishing returns and I am becoming less enthusiastic about her recovery since she is thinking that she is indeed recovered, when she is not.

[Turkish]

This is begging the question.

Bettering is for support and problem solving rather than judgment. Members arrive here in different places given their personal situations. The board guidelines pinned at the top (WHO SHOULD POST ON THIS BOARD) explain it.

Should I use "Bettering" or the "Conflicted Board": The " Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup" board is for members looking to solve specific relationship problems, to be coached on the use of relationship tools, and to examine their role in relationship conflict.

The "Conflicted or Just Tolerating a Relationship" board is for those seeking some emotional support and coping skills, but are not motivated for problem solving or learning relations tools at this time - or who are conflicted about staying in the relationship.
 
Additional Guidelines for this Board: Please read the community guidelines (see link at the bottom of every thread). The following guidelines are also in effect for this board:
 
Please do not urge participants to exit their relationship. Members post here to find solutions to difficult problems. Please allow them the opportunity.

Please do not use this board as a place to complain about your partner without seeking constructive relationship advice.  We are here to find solutions.  It is a given that  our partners are difficult.

We are not victims and this board is not about right and wrong. Please do not  take sides in couples disputes or seek to have other members agree, support or defend your position in your relationship disputes.  This will only serve to polarize matters in your real life and make resolution further out of reach.

[Couscous]

This is begging the question.

Bettering is for support and problem solving rather than judgment. Members arrive here in different places given their personal situations. The board guidelines pinned at the top (WHO SHOULD POST ON THIS BOARD) explain it.

Attempting to better an existing relationship is totally different than reversing a breakup, IMO. It seems to me that it would make more sense for those who have been discarded to head straight to the Detaching board.

[Turkish]

People change their minds and bounce back. We've seen it time and again for over 20 years here. Members in emotional crisis are in just that. Many members also have children and the problem solving nature of this board better serves them. 

Safety is a seperate issue and is dealt with according to crisis protocols. Support, not judgement. Co-rumination is for Conflicted and Detaching.

[Couscous]

Members in emotional crisis are in just that.

If being dumped results in an emotional crisis for someone, I would hope that they would be encouraged to seek out in person support, such as from a crisis counselor or therapist, or even to attend meetings at an addiction recovery group, like SLAA or CoDA. 

[Gutt3rSnipe]

If being dumped results in an emotional crisis for someone, I would hope that they would be encouraged to seek out in person support, such as from a crisis counselor or therapist, or even to attend meetings at an addiction recovery group, like SLAA or CoDA.  

Imagine meeting someone that makes you feel like you were the most important special person in the world. Your connection you had with this person seemed almost fairytale like. Near perfect & fulfilling. Then imagine that same person throw your love away like it was garbage for seemingly no valid reason. Then blame it on you while acting like it doesn’t phase them at all as they fall into someone else’s arms.

That type of stuff can cause unbearable damage to someone. Especially those who already struggle with self esteem, mental, trust, and past relationship issues. Then it’s easier to understand why this situation might cause someone to have a crisis.

[Notwendy]

I understand the intent of the "bettering" board and the need for it. One thing that sets this website apart from others is that many websites take the stand that one should leave, without considering that these situations are different. BPD is a spectrum. People come here with different circumstances- children, financial. Even if the outcome is that the relationship doesn't last, I think many people want to feel they tried before coming to that conclusion.

I see Couscous' point in that the idea "reversing a breakup" might also imply that there's a way to get someone to change their mind after they have left- as if there's some way to make someone fall in love with them again. In every relationship both people have the choice to stay together or not.

We can't change another person or make them feel a certain way. We can work on how we react to their behavior and our own enabling behaviors that can add to the drama between two people. Some relationship books mention that we match our partners in some way emotionally, otherwise we would not be in these dynamics with them. There's a certain balance between two people, even if it's dysfunctional. When one person changes their role, the other one feels an imbalance. Then they have the choice to adjust to it or not. If this happens, there's the possibility for the relationship that is heading for breakup might turn in reverse, but this still requires that both people choose to stay together.

It's also been said that if someone leaves a dysfunctional relationship without examining their part in it, they risk recreating similar dynamics with someone else. It's something the person in the relationship needs to decide for themselves and also to do some examination of their own behavior. For some relationships, I think it's hard to understand from outside the relationship.

It is difficult to feel as if one has been discarded by someone we care about and assumed they care about us too. It's understandable that the first wish is to have that relationship back.

[babyducks]

Doesn’t this send the wrong message and normalize a destructive impulse?

I'm going to say no.   I don't accept the premise that normalizing destructive impulses is a given within this structure.

I believe that you meet people where they are.   Not where you want them to be or where you think they should be.

Certainly, in my time here, members have arrived with posts that describe conditions or beliefs that I have personally found difficult to read.   Posts that may have generated a knee jerk reaction of my own.    That says a lot about who and what I am, regardless of the originating post.    Over and over again I've bumped up against accepting what is, not what should be.

People learn and grow at their own pace.   And some never learn or grow.   I can't change that.    and if I can't accept it than I need to move to a different space.   which is okay.   Turkish said it best.   Its support not judgement.     If I can't support, and sometimes I can't, than its okay to take my experience, strength and hope to another thread.

People stay in difficult relationships for many reasons.   People work their way to exiting difficult relationship by many different routes.    I don't get to make those choices for others.

It is a given that having a successful relationship when there is mental illness involved is fairly rare.     Still I have a personal aversion to categorizing an entire group of people and measuring them against standards that work for me.

'ducks

[Couscous]

That type of stuff can cause unbearable damage to someone. Especially those who already struggle with self esteem, mental, trust, and past relationship issues. Then it’s easier to understand why this situation might cause someone to have a crisis.

It’s totally understandable which is why I would hope that posters who are in crisis would be encouraged to seek out counseling and an in person recovery group.

[NorthernCreature]

Imagine meeting someone that makes you feel like you were the most important special person in the world. Your connection you had with this person seemed almost fairytale like. Near perfect & fulfilling. Then imagine that same person throw your love away like it was garbage for seemingly no valid reason. Then blame it on you while acting like it doesn’t phase them at all as they fall into someone else’s arms.

That type of stuff can cause unbearable damage to someone. Especially those who already struggle with self esteem, mental, trust, and past relationship issues. Then it’s easier to understand why this situation might cause someone to have a crisis.

This is so well said.

[Woolspinner2000]

I feel that there is a place for the bettering board for a few different reasons.  While we may not see a lot of improvement going on in these relationships, there can be a bettering of the non BPD as they learn, discover and implement some of the things they learn. Many who come here need to go through the process and the discovery, and to remove even the thought of hope initially may be too big of a leap. Every one of us comes here from a different place, individuals with similar but unique needs. Some can't leave the relationship they're in (as others have also mentioned).  I have a good friend who can't leave, and she has worked to better both herself and the boundaries she needs in order to make the relationship doable. She is making it work.

This board is a good place for us to support, encourage personal growth and walk alongside those who are new to the journey of discovery or who need support to stay because they don't have options. As the posters move on to another board, we can join them there.

I do understand the thought that the board may be questionable to some. That's why the bettering board will not fit for everyone who comes here.

[SaltyDawg]

I think the original question was about 'reversing a breakup', and not bettering a relationship.

Other than the one instance I referenced above, is anyone else aware where 'reversing a breakup' is advisable?  [both parties are FULLY aware that they have 'issues' AND both parties are willing to do the intensive work of therapy -- this is the only way a 'reversing a breakup' can work, without this it is destined to fail].

My wife is 'partially aware' and it is failing, even though it has moved along nicely for a few months.

I am all for bettering; however, if I am still discarded after working my $$ off, it will be on her to reverse the breakup if and when it happens - I will no longer take the initiative if I were to be discarded.

I have learned a boat load of stuff about BPD, what to look out for to avoid another similar dance in the future.  I went from an average intelligence uBPD/NPD relationship with additional issues to a very high intelligent/high functioning uBPD relationship.  I have learned that I am a 'codependent' and need to adjust my ways to avoid the pitfalls of attracting a 3rd BPD/NPD type person.

The 1st relationship I was really glad to get the heck out of dodge as the dysregulation was way too much, I did a clean, ethical breakup after discard of me where she tried to cheat with another for a 2nd time, and collected my stuff on the attempted recycle.

The 2nd relationship I have not yet been discarded; however, it is very difficult to stay in, trying all the stuff in https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0 with some success and then some, but a lot of setbacks too.

There are several potential 3rd's out there, I recognize them, and have avoided them.  They even 'hit' on me in front of my wife - eww.

Here is what to look out for, a couple hundred traits as found in the following threads:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353716.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329294.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334928.0

I have also seen a few success stories, where people have put their BPD into remission on facebook groups - it is possible; however, it is exceptionally unlikely.

I have hope, even if it feels misguided, because of these success stories with incredibly low odds.  There are even some success stories here on the following thread with only a micro-fraction of success stories of the 100,000+ members over the decade+:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=113820.0;all

There is a place for 'reversing a breakup'; however, it is ultra-rare with odds well in excess of 1:1,000.

Also for those that really don't have BPD, as my wife's T's alledge this could also be a viable avenue for that even if they have BPD-like symptoms [at least 8/9].

What are your thoughts on this?

[Turkish]

I/we reversed my breakup and stayed together for 5 more years and had two pups. I'm not alone.

To be blunt (again): members need support, not projection of our own feelings and experiences. Growth is more likely from empathy and support rather than lecturing. Members need to make their own decisions rather than being lectured. This is a model that's worked here for over 2 decades. Meet people where they are at, not where you wish them to be.

[Gutt3rSnipe]

This is so well said.

Thank you. If you can relate to what I said then just know I empathize with you fully man. You’re not alone.

[Couscous]

I/we reversed my breakup and stayed together for 5 more years and had two pups. I'm not alone.

To be blunt (again): members need support, not projection of our own feelings and experiences. Growth is more likely from empathy and support rather than lecturing. Members need to make their own decisions rather than being lectured. This is a model that's worked here for over 2 decades. Meet people where they are at, not where you wish them to be.

I’m glad it worked out for you. I think a case for attempting to salvage a relationship could definitely be made for when people have kids AND the relationship isn’t high-conflict or abusive. 

Supporting someone to act in their own best interests as opposed to self-destructively is an act of compassion and can easily be done with empathy and in a non-judgmental way. If anything, there exists the danger that empathy can cross the line into enabling. Just like we wouldn’t want to give alcohol to an addict going through withdrawal, we also wouldn’t want to be supporting someone looking to reverse a breakup when what they really need is support to get through the “withdrawal” stage of their breakup.

But this is just the way I see it, and understand that not everyone will agree with me on this.

[Notwendy]

I thought it was a discussion on the wording of "reverse a breakup"

I agree with having a forum that is supportive of members who wish to improve their relationships. Maybe it's in the wording of "reverse a breakup"? This could be seen in a couple of ways- one would be if a couple is heading towards a break up- and what efforts to make to reverse this direction. This would be considered trying to improve a relationship.

The other would be if the pwBPD has decided to end the relationship- and has moved on but the partner wants to reverse that decision to break up. Sometimes I think people may wonder if there's a certain way to get someone with BPD back, but I don't think we have a way to control someone else's feelings or decision.

Maybe this wording was intentional to allow people to post their feelings about either situation.

I think this board is unique in that it allows for personal choice, and for support as people come to their own decisions. I have seen other boards where the message is to leave but I don't think we can impose a decision on someone and I think there's value in the process of arriving at one's own decision.

Having observed my parents' relationship, I really can't say whether my father should or should not have left. There were times I thought he should have- but it was my opinion, not his. We can't know the road not travelled. It would have had challenges either way. It seemed that when I jumped in, to try to advise, it was from a naive perspective- as if somehow I knew better than he did, which was absurd. He knew her better than anyone else. 

I also saw where stepping over the line- telling someone what to do, didn't really work well. If someone comes to these boards feeling they need support- they'd feel unsupported. I understand the feeling of being judged, support the need for a board where the focus is on improving a relationship. I just don't know if it's possible to change someone else's decision if they have already left the relationship.

[babyducks]

Couscous -

I began my time here on the detaching board as my relationship had been severed again.     The pattern for us was that my then partner now Ex would end the relationship only to return in about 6 months and a recycle would begin.

I learned a lot on Detaching but when the reconnect began I moved to Bettering/Reversing.    perhaps others might describe this as a self-destructive act.   that wasn't my experience at all.

from the bottom of my heart, I sincerely mean it when I say, thank goodness we attempted to reverse the break up.   I wouldn't change a thing about that for all the money in the world.     without sharing to many revealing details what reversing the break up allowed was a soft landing for us.   it allowed us to compassionately disengage without being destructive to people, property or pets.  nobody became homeless, nobody committed suicide, no acts of violence were committed.  to me, the reversal was a great success.   even if, after two years the relationship did finally end.

If anything, there exists the danger that empathy can cross the line into enabling.

of course. totally agree.   I think there also exist the danger that a lack of empathy can cross the line into harsh judgement.   Enabling can happen on any board here.   So can harsh decrees.    Ideally there should be a balance.   

'ducks
   

[Couscous]

perhaps others might describe this as a self-destructive act.   that wasn't my experience at all.

Thank goodness that wasn’t your experience.

Sadly, others aren’t so lucky. For some there is very real a risk of experiencing familicide or filicide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4382134/

If people wish to return to or remain with a pwBPD who has engaged in or threatened physical violence, (including threats of suicide) that is of course their choice, but I think it behooves us to alert people that come to these boards of the risk that they are taking.

It is my sincerest hope that people who post here can learn how to value their own lives as much as they value the life of the pwBPD.

[kells76]

Couple of thoughts to add to the discussion:

If people wish to return to or remain with a pwBPD who has engaged in or threatened physical violence, (including threats of suicide) that is of course their choice, but I think it behooves us to alert people that come to these boards of the risk that they are taking.

On any board, if there is a concern that a member is in danger, it's always appropriate to follow our SI & DV guidelines -- you can check those out here:

SUICIDE AND CRISIS SUPPORT

(n.b., this link can be found on the main page -- bpdfamily.com -- at the bottom, under the "messageboard" heading).

In regards to the original question:

My question is why this board is also aimed at people who want to reverse a breakup.

My understanding is that the phrase "reversing a breakup" is not intended as a "promise" or "this is what you will learn how to do on this board". It's phrased that way because for those who come here, already having that desire in mind, including that phrase in the "bettering" board guides them to the more appropriate place for them to ask their initial question. That is to say -- it recognizes that one of the main questions driving many newbies here is the desire to mend a broken relationship.

Guiding first-time posters to the appropriate board where they can get focused help is a big part of this community. In fact, you'll occasionally see "moved" posts -- even with the descriptors in the board titles, newbies occasionally get a little lost when they're first here, and posts about spouses show up on Son/Daughter, posts about processing a breakup show up on Bettering, etc. When we include "likely questions" in board titles, it can be a way of homing new members.

Hope that is a helpful way to understand titling.

And I think we can all get behind this desire:

It is my sincerest hope that people who post here can learn how to value their own lives as much as they value the life of the pwBPD.