Help when uBPDp is raging

[usagi]

Hi all,

Thanks again for this forum.

I got into a situation last night where I think I did what I was supposed to but am still getting a lot of blame from my partner.  She had a bit of a rough morning due to fighting with her ex over custody issues.  The ex took the child away for his time and we were left to ourselves.  I took her to the store to buy a new bike trailer for our little dog and we went to a kids soccer game.  Things seemed to be going OK.  Later in the day I met up with some of my cousins for a bit then headed home at a reasonable hour.  Before getting there she was texting that she was looking forward to seeing me and that she needed me.  We spent the night relaxing, doing some art projects and playing some music.  While getting ready for bed out of the blue she asked "what would you say if I asked you to choose between me and your hobby?"  I stopped what I was doing and thought for a bit because it was so out of place and very vague.  She then said "I take your silence to mean you choose the hobby" and stormed off.  This took me completely by surprise.  I finished getting ready for bed then tried to see her.  She was in a bedroom with the door closed.  I knocked but she said she didn't want to talk.  Later I checked in after she opened the door.  It was still tense.  She asked what I wanted and I replied "I wanted to check in with you to see how you are doing."  It basically devolved from there very quickly.  She said that no one chooses her and that men constantly focus on what they need first.  At that point I decided to just go to another bedroom and give her some space.  She came into my room several times asking why was I not doing anything for her to make her feel better.  I said that I would read to her and snuggle but that I was told to leave several times.  No response.  The next morning she asked me "what if I had diabetes, would you not help me?  I have high serotonin levels, that's all.  Why can't you help me?"  She does take a low dose of antidepressants to manage her anxiety but I make sure she takes it.

I feel like I did all I could last night.  I stayed calm.  I did my best to listen with empathy.  I tried to recognize her emotions, although lately that seems to make her more angry because she feels like I'm talking to her like a therapist.  I didn't get wrapped up in her narrative.  A common complaint she has is that when she is feeling poorly (dysregulated)  I don't do a good job to help her feel better.  I think one thing I could do is help to recognize her emotions.  Somehow the way I'm doing that is very ineffective.  Although that may not necessarily be something that can help her calm down.

Any suggestions BPD family?
 

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[Pook075]

Hi and thanks for sharing.  A few thoughts here on what I would have personally done:

1. Your spouse was feeling neglected and asked a question out of left field. Obviously, you paused because you're human. She took that as validation that you don't care about her.

2. You never answered her question, which allowed her fear of abandonment to grow and mutate.  It went from, "Would you give up art and music" to "If I'm sick, would you even care?"

3. You stated multiple times, "What can I do to help," instead of just squashing her fears of abandonment. The original answer should have been, "I'll gladly spend less time on art projects if there's something you want to do together." It may be too late to give that answer though since things escalated.

4. It is not too late to reinforce that you choose her and you'll always be there to help. Do something to make her feel appreciated...go the extra mile on a romantic dinner or a grand gesture.  I would not just buy her something though (unless it's something she's wanted or really needs) because that's easy, she needs to see you going a step above.

Now, please don't take this as criticism because we've all been there and there's clearly no instruction manual for this.  Every situation is different and every relationship is different. This really feels like she was searching for validation though and she spiraled downward once she didn't get it.  I hope that helps!

[usagi]

Thank you very much.  I find this very insightful.  Even after reading about BPD and how there are some very deep underlining fears of abandonment it's hard sometimes to put that learning into practice.

I think I would be more apt to allay her fears that I'll be with her if I knew she wouldn't hold me to it in the future.  I feel like there is a careful balance between helping her with her fears and maintaining my boundaries.  I do not want to get into the trap I've read about with others where they capitulate on demands from their partner over and over again and are eventually left not really having their own identity.

Is this a boundary issue or a soothing issue or both?  How do you navigate those waters?

[Pook075]

Thank you very much.  I find this very insightful.  Even after reading about BPD and how there are some very deep underlining fears of abandonment it's hard sometimes to put that learning into practice.

I think I would be more apt to allay her fears that I'll be with her if I knew she wouldn't hold me to it in the future.  I feel like there is a careful balance between helping her with her fears and maintaining my boundaries.  I do not want to get into the trap I've read about with others where they capitulate on demands from their partner over and over again and are eventually left not really having their own identity.

Is this a boundary issue or a soothing issue or both?  How do you navigate those waters?

I mean, you're not going to give up on art and music entirely to watch Lifetime movies for the next month, so don't say it that way as a general statement.  You can, however, be specific with something like, "Whenever you're having a bad day or want to do something together, just let me know and I'll take a break from my art projects."

Also, consistency is important too.  If you say that line once, say a variation of that every time she brings up your hobbies.  With my adult daughter and my soon to be ex wife (both BPD), I got in the habit of saying, "I love you and I'm always here for you," every time I was saying goodbye in person or on the phone. And over time, they both accepted it as a fact to the point where I never hear the "you don't care about me" or the "you never show up when I need you" stuff.  

They both clearly now know that if they need me, they can reach out and I'll do everything I can to help.

I hope that gives a little insight!

[usagi]

Yeah that is helpful.  It's difficult for me because I'm the type of person that takes things pretty literally.  So when she asks "will you give this up forever" I take her at her word.  But I know that when she's feeling better she'll back off and encourage me to go do my hobbies.

I think you are probably right, she was feeling abandoned or scared because she's getting into these struggles over her child with the ex and wanted to make sure I was still there for her too.  I do the same thing trying to reassure her that I'll always be here.  When she's feeling poorly sometimes her response is "well I might need to leave you".

Thanks for the support.  I know I'll get through this but these are tough waters to navigate.

[Pook075]

Yeah that is helpful.  It's difficult for me because I'm the type of person that takes things pretty literally.  So when she asks "will you give this up forever" I take her at her word.  But I know that when she's feeling better she'll back off and encourage me to go do my hobbies.

I think you are probably right, she was feeling abandoned or scared because she's getting into these struggles over her child with the ex and wanted to make sure I was still there for her too.  I do the same thing trying to reassure her that I'll always be here.  When she's feeling poorly sometimes her response is "well I might need to leave you".

Thanks for the support.  I know I'll get through this but these are tough waters to navigate.

The key is to focus on the emotions behind her words...not the actual words themselves.  For instance, if you say to me, "You're being such a jerk today," the initial thing that comes to my mind is, "I've been kind to you...you're the jerk." 

But those words only escalate things between us and it ultimately pushes us further apart.  You have to be the bigger person in those situations and accept that her words are out of frustration from being unstable. 

If she calls you a jerk, you say something like, "I'm sorry if I did something to upset you.  Can we talk it out?  I love you and it was never my intention to make you feel that way."

The statement above relates to her emotions...she's upset/mad/whatever and there's a rift forming.  Try to disarm that up front and move things along to regular conversation that will help her stabilize.  With practice, you can respond to that kind of stuff without accepting blame or having to defend yourself...you just focus on the emotion that's driving her instability and you meet it with kindness.  If it's something that has to be discussed (like never doing art again), then bring that up on a good day instead of in the moment when she's definitely going to react poorly.

Again, good luck!  This feels like a situation that can sort itself out pretty fast if you have the right temperament.

[Elitevaz]

Pook is on the money. Even normal girls will do this. You will not logic this. You must look at emotion behind the words. The emotions are volatile and are only valid for the time they are expressed. This is why you don’t need to be worried about her holding you to stopping your hobby forever.

[once removed]

i tend to agree with pook here.

its not that you handled this particularly badly.

she ran into stress, and got super needy. i mean, who wouldnt, but she really couldnt have spelled out the bpdishness of it more, what with all the testing and damned if you do, damned if you dont.

it is wise not to get sucked into arguing with this, for sure. that you did not spend hours trying to explain, defend, and whatever else, the hesitance in your answer, is a win.

but, yeah, where you can be reassuring, it can go a really really long way. and thats what every one of those acting out behaviors was screaming for. thats the fine line i think youre talking about. you have a "special needs" partner. reassurance and validation are their love language. they are also things they use dysfunctional means to try to achieve, and they arent things that theres some magical amount you can give enough of that the need for them goes away.

Before getting there she was texting that she was looking forward to seeing me and that she needed me.

this is the least dysfunctional and most vulnerable way. mirror it. respond in a way that acknowledges it, whip something special up.

"what would you say if I asked you to choose between me and your hobby?"  

if i could bet, id wager this was coming from one of two places:

1. she felt as though your attention was elsewhere
2. she felt this way about her ex and was reflecting on that along with everything else

or both!

they each have different connotations, and are not necessarily anything you have control over, of course. but if she said she needed you, i dont know the dynamic; were you both sort of in the same room doing different things? if so, would that be unusual? if not, was she hoping for unusual?

It basically devolved from there very quickly.  She said that no one chooses her and that men constantly focus on what they need first.

At that point I decided to just go to another bedroom and give her some space.  She came into my room several times asking why was I not doing anything for her to make her feel better.

this is a more dysfunctional means of trying to get those needs met, but, still, a pretty clear communication of them.

one option would have been to listen to her vent a little. it sounds like she was trying to. that can be tricky terrain though, sometimes venting for someone with bpd, or anyone really, can heighten things, make it easier to set them off, make them feel even more tense, etc. but between the lines, she was really trying to express something bigger. the fact that she then followed you to essentially say that seems in line  

The next morning she asked me "what if I had diabetes, would you not help me?  I have high serotonin levels, that's all.  Why can't you help me?"  She does take a low dose of antidepressants to manage her anxiety but I make sure she takes it.

this is now pretty far past the point of reasonable, and theres really nothing you can say, and thats sort of the point.

you can anticipate that stressful events will result in extra neediness, and often times, head them off at the pass before they get to this point. look for ways as they present themselves that you can be loving and supportive of those needs, without encroaching (trying to fix them or make them go away, getting into circular arguments, rescuing, whatever it is). and of course, knowing your wife best, what might or might not make matters worse in the moment.

[usagi]

Thank you so much everyone.  This is really at the heart of what I need to learn as a partner of someone with BPD.  I feel like I'm getting much better about not being drawn in but as you pointed out I can do better at listening to her emotions rather than the words per se.

She stayed out last night with a friend later than normal and didn't tell me where she was.  When she finally got home, she said she didn't want to be there and was pretty quite for most of the evening.  I decided to make up her bed and left a little valentine heart on her pillow.  After she laid down, I came in and just hugged her while she cried.  Then I read to her till she fell asleep.  This morning she was back to her old self with lots of love and attention.  Before she left for work she said again "don't put things before me".  I reassured her that I'm here and that she comes first.

Months ago this could have been a week long rollercoaster.  With the help of this forum and my counselor this is getting more manageable.  However, I have to admit that I was feeling pretty strained yesterday when she didn't contact me all day.  I know logically that she just needed some space but I was feeling tired and done with the relationship.  With her attention this morning I feel filled up again.

Thank you

[Pook075]

Thank you so much everyone.  This is really at the heart of what I need to learn as a partner of someone with BPD.  I feel like I'm getting much better about not being drawn in but as you pointed out I can do better at listening to her emotions rather than the words per se.

She stayed out last night with a friend later than normal and didn't tell me where she was.  When she finally got home, she said she didn't want to be there and was pretty quite for most of the evening.  I decided to make up her bed and left a little valentine heart on her pillow.  After she laid down, I came in and just hugged her while she cried.  Then I read to her till she fell asleep.  This morning she was back to her old self with lots of love and attention.  Before she left for work she said again "don't put things before me".  I reassured her that I'm here and that she comes first.

Months ago this could have been a week long rollercoaster.  With the help of this forum and my counselor this is getting more manageable.  However, I have to admit that I was feeling pretty strained yesterday when she didn't contact me all day.  I know logically that she just needed some space but I was feeling tired and done with the relationship.  With her attention this morning I feel filled up again.

Thank you

That's awesome news and I am so glad that we were able to help.  Please, feel free to ask additional questions whenever you're unsure of the next step- you were very wise to ask early in the dysregulation what you could have done better.  All of us wish that we asked sooner because it could have made a real difference in our relationships.

The one thing I'll leave you with is that the time to act is the very first sign of dysregulation (like, "will you give up art for me").  The ask is unreasonable, but the emotions behind it (feeling like art is more important than her) is very real.  So you nip that in the bud right away by reassuring and just being present to comfort her, and all that backlash is completely avoidable.  The real problem kicks in when things go unsaid and those fears build for hours, days, or weeks.

I'm very proud of you brother!  Keep on keeping on since it feels like you're on the right path!

[waverider]

I find that we learn to disengage to avoid being dragged into some circular nonsense. Which is on the whole a good approach. However it is important to not come across as totally disinterested, ie not instigating interest in what they are thinking/doing. Sometimes they have things on their mind that need to be got out but they are waiting for us to ask in order to provide that opening. If that doesn't happen it just builds until a valve blows.

Also do not underestimate the value of a hug, if things are feeling off. Sometimes this alone can be enough without actually delving into issues, as often the issues are just a clumsy vehicle for expressing confused emotions. This allows you to bypass the distraction issue and appeal to the emotion, which is commonly just insecurity

[jaded7]

If she calls you a jerk, you say something like, "I'm sorry if I did something to upset you.  Can we talk it out?  I love you and it was never my intention to make you feel that way."

Hi Pook. You're becoming a real master!

I'll add that with some, even these words will not work. I have used the words:

 "I'm sorry, that was not my intention..."  and I'd get back "it doesn't matter what your intention was! it's the impact Jaded! The impact!" (when she didn't tell me about something she wanted me to do or be there for, I had no way of knowing or even guessing what she needed/wanted)

"I can see you're upset, I'm sorry if I hurt you..." with "you never...! you always...! I'm sick of this sh*t! You're a sh*tty...blank blank blank" as it spirals into general belittlement of me in areas totally unrelated to what we're addressing. Serious dysregulation.

[Pook075]

Hi Pook. You're becoming a real master!

I'll add that with some, even these words will not work. I have used the words:

 "I'm sorry, that was not my intention..."  and I'd get back "it doesn't matter what your intention was! it's the impact Jaded! The impact!" (when she didn't tell me about something she wanted me to do or be there for, I had no way of knowing or even guessing what she needed/wanted)

"I can see you're upset, I'm sorry if I hurt you..." with "you never...! you always...! I'm sick of this sh*t! You're a sh*tty...blank blank blank" as it spirals into general belittlement of me in areas totally unrelated to what we're addressing. Serious dysregulation.

From what I learned dealing with my BPD young adult daughter, it takes consistency and patience to really get the message across.  One thing I've noticed in my ex and my kid is that they both have these scenarios they play out in their heads before these types of conversations that tell them the other person doesn't care, they won't understand, and that they only cause harm in the long run.  Both of them used to tell me things about how I thought or how I felt like:

- You hate my family so there's no use talking about it.
- You never want to take the time to listen.
- You always just get angry when I tell you something.

None of those are true statements, but they both believed that and accepted it as fact.  So when I'd ask my ex, "How's your mom doing?"  Her initial thought was that I'm asking it in mockery or something.  It's a learned behavior that's super destructive and takes a lot of work to get past.  Notice all three statements are absolutes...no grey area there where I could lean either way in my thinking.  Stuff like that is what makes BPD so hard to get past.

In my case, I always ask about my ex-wife's family and show genuine concern (because I do actually care).  I always try to take time to listen and I do everything in my power to avoid getting angry...which you all know is sometimes very difficult.  The point is that you have to overcome those destructive patterns in time with constant reassurance that they're not true.  You could say it once and they believe you, but when they walk off and have time to themselves, their mind convinces them that you were lying and they know the real truth.  The self-sabotage is vicious and the only way to fully overcome it is getting painted white as their rock.

It's mind-boggling at times and completely unfair, but it is what it is.  The earlier advice stands though, the sooner you can get them to abandon that fight or flight reflex from feeling insecure, the quicker you can return to healthy conversations where boundaries and connection can take place.  

That's been true in my case anyway, I hope that helps!

[jaded7]

 ... have these scenarios they play out in their heads before these types of conversations that tell them the other person doesn't care, they won't understand, and that they only cause harm in the long run.  Both of them used to tell me things about how I thought or how I felt like:

- You hate my family so there's no use talking about it.
- You never want to take the time to listen.
- You always just get angry when I tell you something.

None of those are true statements, but they both believed that and accepted it as fact.  So when I'd ask my ex, "How's your mom doing?"  Her initial thought was that I'm asking it in mockery or something.  It's a learned behavior that's super destructive and takes a lot of work to get past.  

This is very accurate in my experience Pook. It's what I've said in my own posts- telling my ex that she is 'having stories in your head about me, then you react to the stories, but they aren't true'.

Then the 'you always______', 'you never______'. In the former a criticism, in the latter an unmet need that she never expressed, or in some cases actually said no when asked about it, then later attacked me for not doing the thing she said no to.

[usagi]

I find that we learn to disengage to avoid being dragged into some circular nonsense. Which is on the whole a good approach. However it is important to not come across as totally disinterested, ie not instigating interest in what they are thinking/doing. Sometimes they have things on their mind that need to be got out but they are waiting for us to ask in order to provide that opening. If that doesn't happen it just builds until a valve blows.

Also do not underestimate the value of a hug, if things are feeling off. Sometimes this alone can be enough without actually delving into issues, as often the issues are just a clumsy vehicle for expressing confused emotions. This allows you to bypass the distraction issue and appeal to the emotion, which is commonly just insecurity

I have definitely experienced this.  And by BPD partner easily picks up on when I'm too disinterested.