Marriage Struggles with self harm and violence(Seeking Guidance)

[NorthSouth]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here and I've discovered this forum after reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and speaking with my therapist regarding martial issues I've been experiencing for months. I believe my wife has undiagnosed BPD and we've had serious marriage problems since July of last year. I find myself often walking on eggshells, waiting for the other shoe to drop, seeing patterns of idealization and devaluation, with sometimes extreme instances of abuse and self harm occurring in our home.
      I am writing this because I have had a hard time finding the perspective or correct actions when our arguments escalate to the point where my wife is cutting herself. I've called friends and family to help with her extreme emotional dysregulation in the past taking her suicide threats seriously, but was shamed and guilted for having done so. She explained to me that all that I accomplished was to isolate her from the people that reached out after I had done so. She no longer felt comfortable and felt judged by the people who attempted to make sure she was okay after the last incident.
     I have been struggling because she often tells me that it is my actions that caused her to self harm and cut herself. I am currently in therapy and have been doing a lot of self work at dealing with conflict in a healthy way but when these situations occur I feel completely lost and helpless. There has been a long history of intimidation through the destruction of various objects in our house(doorframes, windows, personal items) and has become violent in the physical sense within the past few years. I have been smacked, kicked, thrown out of the house, screamed at, yelled and called horrible things, had a car door kicked in, so many times but continue to commit to this marriage and want to see things get better between us. I have been mocked before as I called her out during a physical abuse episode. I don't think she feels real remorse or responsibility for the effect it has on me.
     When things are good they're really good. I am always so sideswiped when something I have said it taken and twisted in such a way that I feel completely misunderstood and attacked. I used to get defensive but therapy has helped me understand a healthier way to acknowledge her feelings and try to understand the situation more clearly. This works if things don't escalate too far. But sometimes there feels like there is no way to calm the situation down, that what I've said and what she thought I meant by it are FACTS and I am a horrible husband and partner, uncommitted and a real piece of work.
     I am writing this because I really need help understanding how to navigate the physical abuse and self harm that keeps occurring in my marriage. I am worried I am going to develop PTSD or something because I've been having night terrors after being physically abused this week. I have tried to establish that emotional and physical abuse is something I will not tolerate but this generally seems to go unheard because the behavior resurfaces again and again between us. I am often left feeling like "If I only didn't make things so bad then I wouldn't have deserved to be treated that way". I have been told this multiple times by her, that it is my fault usually because I didn't know how to prevent or speak to her correctly.
     I don't want to give up on my marriage but I know that this is not a healthy situation to be living in. I wonder what kind of person would choose to live this way. We are supposed to go to couples therapy in January but I still can't take that piece of information as hope that things will get better between us. What is the best course of action if my wife is self harming me and physically abusing me in the midst of an episode? I feel like if I leave then her abandonment trauma will be trigger but I'm also left standing as a huge target with no options left other than to take the abuse.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SaltyDawg]

Hello NorthSouth,

   Welcome to BPD family.  We are here to listen to you and offer emotional support.

   From what you have described, your wife has some really serious issues as 'self-harm' / 'self-mutilation' is one of the more serious symptoms to contend with, I have recently written another user who's pwBPD (person with BPD) is doing self-harm and has a lot of tips in dealing with it at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357171.msg13205698#msg13205698 which you might want to read.

   Instead of reaching out to friends for help - for both self-harm and suicide ideation, encourage your wife to contact 988 (voice & text) or 741741 (text only) in the United States - let me know if you are outside of the USA and I will find those numbers for you.  Also reach out to your local county/parish for mental health and see what resources are in your area.  Your wife, no matter what she has, needs to get treated for both suicidal ideation and/or self-harm.

   When you have this conversation with your wife, validate her feelings that you have isolated her from her friends, and it was not the way to go.  Tell her that you care for her, and would like for her to see her get better.  Do the legwork, and find 3 therapists in your immediate area that deals with these kinds of behaviors - give her your short list, and encourage her to pick one and start therapy.  If she is drawing blood and/or is suicidal - more than likely she knows that she is messed up and has a higher chance of agreeing to get help than a typical borderline woman.  You could 'persuade' her by telling her if she doesn't then you will go back to friends - more than likely she will choose the more anonymous route that is trained to deal with this even though she will likely be very angry with you - that is okay - you are doing this to save her life.

   People who do this are hurting so much emotionally they are replacing the emotional pain with real pain.  If your wife has a knife, gun, pills, and is threatening, you need to call 911 and get her evaluated.  If she is only thinking about it, or she is cutting, call 988 (or text 741741).

   From what you have described, you are also a victim of physical abuse, otherwise known as domestic violence.  This is NOT okay.  I highly recommend the next time you are with your therapist to get a safety plan for yourself, and talk over her behaviors not only towards herself, but to you as well.  How long have you been in therapy?  Also, make sure you are recording her behaviors in case she tries to flip the script and accuse you of all of these behaviors to yourself and her as your fault, not hers.

   I was in the beginning stages of something similar to what you are going through now, I nipped it in the bud - so there have only been 6 instances of DV against me by my uBPDw - the next one would have resulted in my dialing 911 and got her $$ arrested - this put a stop to this behavior - she hated me for it, but at least I no longer live under the fear of being hit/punched/kicked or similar behavior towards a wall. 

   It was not pretty, as she hated my guts for getting her reported to her therapists, which in turn reported it to the authorities as a mandated reporter.  I am wondering if your therapist has done the same, the laws vary from state to state, so they might not have done so.

   If you do this, her hatred of you will increase, initially, in my case for about 3 months, before it got better.  Now we are a full year from the last instance of physical violence, our relationship is significantly better than it was before; however, it is still not where I would like it to be.

   I have a pretty good idea on how you feel.  You need to assess if you do nothing, it will escalate, you will likely get injured and/or she will likely get injured, or possibly even worse, death from suicide, or her attacking you!  If she is not willing to get help, you must get help.  Talk with your therapist on this very topic, they are trained for this (even though the one I had at the time was overwhelmed, a PhD in psychiatry referred me to the one who trained him and she has been able to help me) - this is some really heavy sh!t.

   You can view this as a matter of life or death for your marriage and/or for your actual lives - what can you do to stop the higher probability of death?  The only path forward, is to get her into the system, initially it will get worse, it could destroy what is left of your marriage; however, on the flip side there is a reasonable chance it will get better - I am living proof of that.  Look at your marriage, if your best friend had a wife like yours, what would you recommend to him?  Do you want your marriage to continue to decline like it has, almost certain of failure, or do you want to do something about it, that has a reasonable chance of working, but also a chance of failing altogether as well?  This is a risk you will have to decide, certain failure, or a reasonable chance of getting better, but also a chance of immediate failure - work this out with your therapist, and then commit to a plan of action.

   Make sure you plan wisely when doing this, this requires a safety plan (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf), a risk assessment (https://www.mosaicmethod.com/), a plan for bringing sanity back into your home (https://margalistherapy.com/articles/borderline-and-narcissism-issues/handbook-for-dealing-with-a-bp-np/) - this is the short version of the highly recommended book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad.  This will get you started, there are a lot of other resources too.

   Please come back, and let us know how you are progressing, as I can share so many things with you that can be helpful, and pitfalls to avoid, or how to deal with pushback as this will require a herculean effort on your part - which will be easier than what you are going through now, and will require a bit of patients.

   Your wife has a serious mental illness, and the paradox of this illness is that she will lash out at the one(s) she loves the most - and that is you.  When she says crappy things, she really means that at the time, and it can be so hurtful, but it is an exaggeration of those feelings which are grounded in truth, but when you look at the facts to support her version of the truth, her version then becomes a false narrative.

   When she is idealizing you (when it is really good) this too can be dysregulated - do not get lulled into a false sense of security when she does this.  I can, and will talk to you more about the other issues, including your 'night terrors' as a symptom of C-PTSD (complex PTSD); however, your first priority should be to stop the violence, both in the form of her cutting herself, and projected violence by destruction of property, and actual physical violence against you.

   I know you don't want to give up on your marriage, neither do I for mine - I will share with you what has worked for me and what hasn't as most therapists recommend splitting up when it gets this bad.  Regarding 'couple's therapy', at least until things settle down, I would initially advise against it, as it will likely only be a 'blamefest' initially, and only highlight how wrong it indeed is without an effective solution.  Once you get your feet under yourself, and have landed relatively safely with a rock solid sense of self, only then consider couple's therapy - you can read on my difficulties with couple's therapy by clicking my alias "Salty Dawg" and looking at my recent posts.  With couple's therapy, I have developed a system for it to be effective (still tweaking it), but is basically pushes back hard on the couple's therapist (most do not like this), and highlights all of the issues, one at a time to be addressed in therapy. 

   The best course of action is to get her into the system and get her properly treated for her mental illness, either hospitalization or intensive outpatient therapy (IOP) instead of using your mutual friends.  Continue to work on yourself as well with your therapist.  The current gold standard is DBT for your wife, and you too. 

   Don't take the abuse, it is wrong, it is illegal, and it will only get worse with time and it will escalate (99% probability) unless you take serious steps to mitigate it (911) which will tick her off big time initially; however, it will either make or break your marriage, but this is the better of the two choices you have before you.  Talk it over with your therapist, and come up with a plan that your therapist approves of.

   I am sorry that I don't have better news for you, however, I have shared the path that I have taken and I am currently taking.  It will not be easy, but it will get better eventually, even though it may get worse in the short term. 

   I am pretty sure you are emotionally exhausted, please do self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

   Take care.

SD

[livednlearned]

I have been struggling because she often tells me that it is my actions that caused her to self harm and cut herself.

How do you respond when she says something like this?

I am currently in therapy and have been doing a lot of self work at dealing with conflict in a healthy way but when these situations occur I feel completely lost and helpless.

That makes sense. BPD sort of transfer their unmanageable internal states onto others. She's feeling x. She's (in a very unskilled, problematic way) working to make you feel x too. 

I have been smacked, kicked, thrown out of the house, screamed at, yelled and called horrible things, had a car door kicked in, so many times

How do these episodes wind down? What does your therapist recommend you do when this happens?

What do you feel is within the realm of possibility for managing these episodes when they happen?

sometimes there feels like there is no way to calm the situation down, that what I've said and what she thought I meant by it are FACTS and I am a horrible husband and partner, uncommitted and a real piece of work.

Sometimes it's too far gone for words and you have to remove yourself from the situation. If she is fully flooded, it's too late to engage the part of her brain that can engage in reason.

How would she respond if you let her know (during the good times) that you plan to step away and come back when you've had a chance to cool down and collect yourself?

[kells76]

Hi NorthSouth, just want to add my voice to welcome you here. Really glad you felt ready to share what's going on in your life and your marriage. There's a lot on your shoulders -- we'll be here for you.

Just a couple of questions from me as you settle in here:

How long have you been married?

And do you have any kids?

Fill us in whenever works best for you;

kells76

[NorthSouth]

How do you respond when she says something like this?

I usually emotionally shut down and get quiet. I’ve tried to be present recently and acknowledge she’s feeling scared and that I’m not going to leave her and I’m here for her even if she’s mad. She usually says I’m lieing and pushes me further away
 

That makes sense. BPD sort of transfer their unmanageable internal states onto others. She's feeling x. She's (in a very unskilled, problematic way) working to make you feel x too. 
 

How do these episodes wind down? What does your therapist recommend you do when this happens?

We give each other space usually and apologize to each other (if I’ve been defensive or she feels bad about the aftermath). Since I’ve started therapy I’ve been trying to establish boundaries when things are calmer. I’ve been talking to my therapist for Twoish months. He’s told me to tell her that if she continues that I should dial 911 but I’ve been afraid to.

What do you feel is within the realm of possibility for managing these episodes when they happen?

I can leave but I used to leave when these things happened and it caused a lot of abandonment and trust problems between us. I’ve tried taking space in a different part of the house as to not escalate things further but she’ll generally come to wherever I am and try to further antagonize me

Sometimes it's too far gone for words and you have to remove yourself from the situation. If she is fully flooded, it's too late to engage the part of her brain that can engage in reason.

How would she respond if you let her know (during the good times) that you plan to step away and come back when you've had a chance to cool down and collect yourself?

My therapist has suggested this and as mentioned above it’s really tricky to navigate. I took a walk once and told her I’d be back in an hour and got messages that I took as suicide threats after leaving.

[NorthSouth]

Hi NorthSouth, just want to add my voice to welcome you here. Really glad you felt ready to share what's going on in your life and your marriage. There's a lot on your shoulders -- we'll be here for you.

Just a couple of questions from me as you settle in here:

How long have you been married?

A little over a year

And do you have any kids?

No kids

Fill us in whenever works best for you;

kells76

[NorthSouth]

How would she respond if you let her know (during the good times) that you plan to step away and come back when you've had a chance to cool down and collect yourself?

This is the most difficult part for me. I have a hard time bringing myself to discuss the things that have happened between us when things are good between us because I am afraid that it will spiral into a new episode. It’s often easier to send her a long message via text because I can communicate my thoughts and boundaries without being interrupted but in the long run it hasn’t been effective either. I think after things have calmed down she’s generally too emotionally exhausted to speak about it and wants to just ignore the past entirely. We have a bad habit of never returning to the things which happened which builds resentment in both of us. I think things never really come to a resolution during our arguments and I think by bringing the conversation back up I’ll find myself right back in that place again. She has a tendency to medicate heavily with marajuana after huge arguments and it makes it difficult for us to have a serious discussion with each other.
     We had a long separation in October where we both decided that we need to goto counseling. I have been in therapy but she has stopped seeing her therapist and I’ve brought it to her attention several times

[SaltyDawg]

I usually emotionally shut down and get quiet. I’ve tried to be present recently and acknowledge she’s feeling scared and that I’m not going to leave her and I’m here for her even if she’s mad. She usually says I’m lieing and pushes me further away

I too have done this in the past.  I have changed, with the help of my therapist to stay engaged, as long as she is not dysregulated (being irrational) and will engage as long as she can hold a reasonably sane conversation.  However, when it shifts to blame shifting me, circular arguments, word salad, false narratives / accusations, I will then tell her that we need to take a break and resume this the following morning as she is usually triggered in a mood swing by then.

When I did this in the past, she used to yell and rage at me for 2-4 hours on average, and over 7 hours non-stop on occasion, with therapy, the rages have stopped, but the mood swings have not.
 

That makes sense. BPD sort of transfer their unmanageable internal states onto others. She's feeling x. She's (in a very unskilled, problematic way) working to make you feel x too.

I have seen the same in my pwBPD.  This is called, blame shifting, projection, and transference.  Very common for a borderline to do this.  Eventually this wore me down, so I actually believed some of this sh!t spewing from her mouth, until two different therapists worked with me to realize what actually was occuring.
 

We give each other space usually and apologize to each other (if I’ve been defensive or she feels bad about the aftermath). Since I’ve started therapy I’ve been trying to establish boundaries when things are calmer. I’ve been talking to my therapist for Twoish months. He’s told me to tell her that if she continues that I should dial 911 but I’ve been afraid to.

If she doesn't have a nuclear level boundary on this, it will get worse.  This boundary is 911.  It will escalate the situation, and piss her off.  However, if you don't call 911, what is the worst that will happen to you?  A knife in your side, a hammer to your head, or something worse?  I am 100% with your therapist on this.  Make sure you have a safety plan, I gave you link in my previous post.  Only you can look out for you.  What is scarier, her being arrested by the police, or something really bad happening to you since you didn't call 911?  I get it, I didn't call 911 either, the last few times I let the therapist handle it; otherwise, I would have called 911.

I'm amazed that you actually get an apology, it took years of therapy for my pwBPD to give me an apology, and when she did it was so strange, it felt like being in the twilight zone. 


I can leave but I used to leave when these things happened and it caused a lot of abandonment and trust problems between us. I’ve tried taking space in a different part of the house as to not escalate things further but she’ll generally come to wherever I am and try to further antagonize me

These are techniques that are recommended; however, they are not working for you.  Will you accept this bad behavior that has the potential to become worse?   A firm enforceable boundary needs to be set, or this behavior of your wife will get worse.  Work with your therapist on prioritizing which boundaries to set first.  With my wife, she can process about one new boundary per week, so I am slowly adding boundary on top of boundary which all share a common theme "all abuse must stop".


Sometimes it's too far gone for words and you have to remove yourself from the situation. If she is fully flooded, it's too late to engage the part of her brain that can engage in reason.

With my wife in her own therapy, I have set a boundary on this, I will disengage, and tell my wife we can resume the conversation tomorrow morning (my wife resets, much like a reset on electronics, after a sleep cycle).  Figure out your wife's reset, and then push off the irrational/flooded conversation until that happens.  It works for me; however, you need to do what works for you.

How would she respond if you let her know (during the good times) that you plan to step away and come back when you've had a chance to cool down and collect yourself?

My therapist has suggested this and as mentioned above it’s really tricky to navigate. I took a walk once and told her I’d be back in an hour and got messages that I took as suicide threats after leaving.

---

"A little over a year" is a very short time to be married.  I am going to offer up a theory based on borderline behavior - they can be quite predictable even though it seems otherwise.  I could be wrong in my guessing; so please keep that in mind.  You don't have to be specific in your answer; however, I am guessing your relationship started off hot and heavy and moved way too quickly from the start.  Everything seemed like it was 'too good to be true' before you moved in together.  Things generally start to fall apart when one or more of these events take place...
1.  Move in together, and live together.
2.  You get engaged
3.  You get married (for me this is when it fell apart for me, 2 weeks after the honeymoon concluded, I threatened to leave, and it got better again.)
4.  You buy a house together  (this happened again, when we bought a house together as well, but I suggest I was reconsidering, and it got better again.)
5.  You guys get 'pregnant' (this happened again; however, I did not make any overtures of leaving, as she knew I was obligated to our unborn child, she changed immediately after we got the positive pregnancy test).

Speaking of children, you mentioned "No kids" - until you get things resolved with your wife, I highly recommend that you do not have children together as this is a 20-30 year commitment, and you are only finished your first year together as husband and wife.  Can you do this for another three decades?

-----

This is the most difficult part for me. I have a hard time bringing myself to discuss the things that have happened between us when things are good between us because I am afraid that it will spiral into a new episode. It’s often easier to send her a long message via text because I can communicate my thoughts and boundaries without being interrupted but in the long run it hasn’t been effective either. I think after things have calmed down she’s generally too emotionally exhausted to speak about it and wants to just ignore the past entirely. We have a bad habit of never returning to the things which happened which builds resentment in both of us. I think things never really come to a resolution during our arguments and I think by bringing the conversation back up I’ll find myself right back in that place again. She has a tendency to medicate heavily with marajuana after huge arguments and it makes it difficult for us to have a serious discussion with each other.
     We had a long separation in October where we both decided that we need to goto counseling. I have been in therapy but she has stopped seeing her therapist and I’ve brought it to her attention several times

In order for things to get better the following must be present...

1.  Self-awareness - it sounds like she is self-aware of some of the more impactfully worse symptoms similar to my wife.
2.  Willingness to work on herself - it sounds like she started to do this; however it was too tough, and then she stopped.
3.  A good moral compass (from your perspective) - when she has episodes some borderlines will cross boundaries for some find that are not acceptable - for me this was infidelity (I'm religious), and being hit (DV), using illegal drugs is another (neither one crossed this boundary).  My first bpd relationship she cheated on me not once, but twice - so I left her only to land in the lap of my present uBPDw who eventually did DV six times, and DV is another one of my hard boundaries, that I found softer than I had hoped I would be.  It sounds like your wife had a pretty good start, but then it failed...  I have told my wife, as long as I see improvement, I will not leave.  There will be setbacks from time to time; however, as long as there is a general upward trend of things getting better I told her I would stay; however, if it were to reverse, I would reconsider.

Communications is key; however, your communication will need to avoid Gottman's four horsemen https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/, you will have to use SET communication, using "I" statements and more specifics can be found here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0 and even then she may not be receptive to this.

You need to work with your own therapist on what you are willing to accept and not accept from your wife and take an appropriate action on what is good for you.

Regarding her marijuana use. How do you feel about this? From my own personal observations of borderline behaviors marijuana often helps settle the nerves and makes things better.  This is not a dynamic in my relationships; however it is for other that I associate with.  If it helps, use it; however, if it makes it worse than encourage not to use it.

Keep coming back.  Keep asking questions.  We are hear to listen to you, and support you, many of us have been where you have been, myself included.  You might not want to hear what we have to say; however, please weigh my words and other's words carefully, and do what is best for you in your situation.

Be sure to do self-care as this can be so exhausting.

Take care, and I hope your holidays are enjoyable and drama free.

SD

P.S.  I will being doing holiday stuff until Friday, so it may take me a few days to respond.