Needs some legal advice, uBPDex trying to destroy our family vacation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

In the divorce my H is allowed 2 weeks during the summer to take the children. It's simply written that we must notify the uBPDex in writing of our vacation dates prior to March 1. It says nothing else. Just notify her in writing. It says nothing about if she "approves" of our dates and plans.


We did just that today. We notified her via email, we did not ASK permission and stated the dates and plans.


In the mean time, I booked a 6 year in the making Disney Cruise, airfare for all of us, and paid the whole thing off. H's children have been begging to go for the last 4 years, and I finally found a week during the summer that was suitable for everyone. H and I both got time approved off of work  . All set to go, or so we though.


uBPDex responds to the email 12 hours later, stating that we would not be taking the children as she has "first choice" (mind you, it doesn't say that anywhere in the divorce agreement). She claims that she has "plans" that week and that the children live with her so we have to ask permission for everything from her first, an she continues to throw around the words "custodial parent" and saying she has "control". She continued to send emails claiming that shes got "fantastic plans for the children that exact week and the courts will surely side with her because of how her plans benefit the children".



I have saved for this vacation for the last 2 years (anyone who has gone on Disney Cruise knows how expensive it is!). I booked it in full on my card, including airfare, a hotel, and a rental car (can you say a boat load of cancellation fees!).


I am so upset because we wanted to surprise the children. She has never given us trouble in the past about any vacation we have ever taken. We have been on an email only speaking basis with her for 3 weeks, and I think her anger and jealousy has brewed in the quiet time. This is the first time in 3 weeks my H has contacted her. She has sent text messages threatening to pull the plug on other event in the last 2 weeks if we did not talk to her. Clearly, she was waiting for an opportunity to ruin our joy  :'(.


My concern is, this trip was booked under my information. I am not sure how this will all stand up in court. How do we approach this?


Dealing with this uBPDex for the last decade I would guess she scrambled to make reservations/ bought plane tickets tonight to show that she has "plans". Also, she has not notified us of these plans, whether she is taking them out of the state, and has stated nothing to us about any trips or dates she was intending on using herself. My H thinks she would have pulled the same card any date we would have chosen over the summer.


What are our rights? Any advice from anyone who has been in this situation, please advise.

[Sickofthedrama]

In the divorce my H is allowed 2 weeks during the summer to take the children. It's simply written that we must notify the uBPDex in writing of our vacation dates prior to March 1. It says nothing else. Just notify her in writing. It says nothing about if she "approves" of our dates and plans.


We did just that today. We notified her via email, we did not ASK permission and stated the dates and plans.


In the mean time, I booked a 6 year in the making Disney Cruise, airfare for all of us, and paid the whole thing off. H's children have been begging to go for the last 4 years, and I finally found a week during the summer that was suitable for everyone. H and I both got time approved off of work  . All set to go, or so we though.


uBPDex responds to the email 12 hours later, stating that we would not be taking the children as she has "first choice" (mind you, it doesn't say that anywhere in the divorce agreement). She claims that she has "plans" that week and that the children live with her so we have to ask permission for everything from her first, an she continues to throw around the words "custodial parent" and saying she has "control". She continued to send emails claiming that shes got "fantastic plans for the children that exact week and the courts will surely side with her because of how her plans benefit the children".



I have saved for this vacation for the last 2 years (anyone who has gone on Disney Cruise knows how expensive it is!). I booked it in full on my card, including airfare, a hotel, and a rental car (can you say a boat load of cancellation fees!).


I am so upset because we wanted to surprise the children. She has never given us trouble in the past about any vacation we have ever taken. We have been on an email only speaking basis with her for 3 weeks, and I think her anger and jealousy has brewed in the quiet time. This is the first time in 3 weeks my H has contacted her. She has sent text messages threatening to pull the plug on other event in the last 2 weeks if we did not talk to her. Clearly, she was waiting for an opportunity to ruin our joy  :'(.


My concern is, this trip was booked under my information. I am not sure how this will all stand up in court. How do we approach this?


Dealing with this uBPDex for the last decade I would guess she scrambled to make reservations/ bought plane tickets tonight to show that she has "plans". Also, she has not notified us of these plans, whether she is taking them out of the state, and has stated nothing to us about any trips or dates she was intending on using herself. My H thinks she would have pulled the same card any date we would have chosen over the summer.


What are our rights? Any advice from anyone who has been in this situation, please advise.

[Thunderstruck]

I'm too "green" to this stuff to have advice but I wanted to give support.   I bet it would be cheaper to cancel and lose the deposits than to take her back to court, but what do I know. Talk to the lawyer and see if there is a solid claim there.

Or... .  just kidnap the kids that week.   It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission (kidding kidding... .  sorta kinda  ).

[Matt]

Not the exact same situation, and everybody's court order could be different.  But here are some thoughts... .  

First, it sounds like you've already read the court order - make sure you know exactly what it says.

If you have an attorney, maybe a quick phone chat with her to confirm that your understanding is correct.

Then a carefully-worded e-mail to ex, copying (or via) your attorney:

* The court order says "Blah blah blah".  (Quote the exact words!)

* We informed you before March 1, as it requires.

* We have already spent the money on the trip.

* If necessary, we will file a motion in court to decide this issue.  As part of that motion, we will ask that our legal costs be paid by you, since it is your threat to not comply with the court order that is making the motion necessary.

* We may also include other stuff in that motion, such as a change to custody.

* Please confirm by e-mail that you intend to comply with the court order, and that the kids will be with us from [date and time] through [date and time].  If we do not receive that confirmation from you by Monday, we will proceed with our motion.

My point is, make sure you are on solid ground, and then, present her with options - one option is to cooperate, and the other is to let the court decide.  And make it clear - without sounding like a threat - that if she chooses the latter, there may be consequences, such as paying your legal fees, and maybe losing some parenting time, or whatever else you can think of that might be appropriate.

I went through something like this - I needed to relocate for work, and my ex, who wasn't working at the time, fought me over it.  For me, spending several months, with a skilled mediator, trying to resolve it, was a complete waste of time.  But when I laid out those two options - "We can work this out right here and now, and file it with the court to be rubber-stamped, or I will file tomorrow, and when I do, I will disclose all the relevant information, and ask the court for legal fees" - when I laid out those two options clearly - trying not to sound like I was threatening her - she changed her tune, and the issue was resolved very quickly - almost the same resolution as I had initially proposed several months earlier.

What I learned from that was that, after an initial attempt to resolve it nicely, I was wasting my time, until I made it clear what her options were.  Trying to be nice is the way to start, but you might as well move quickly to a more firm approach... .  

[ForeverDad]

Yes, vacation notices are just that, notices.  No "approvals" required.  As long as they comply with the order, it's good to go.  Does the order state how the notices are to be sent, is email adequate or is paper mail, certified mail, etc, required?

Most orders specifically state or at least presume the first notice sent gets precedence.  What you just heard was her entitlement speaking, as in, "I decide".  (My ex did that too.  Vacations were a problem in those early years, they were triggers for her.)

In some cases an order may have added text such as a certain parent gets preference during certain time periods due to related holidays.  For example, whichever parent has Thanksgiving, Christmas or Easter would also get priority for the non-holiday time during the associated week if requesting a vacation then.  However, that's not the case in this simple order.

What to do?  Yes, you may need a legal opinion to know what your options are.  Likely you will be told to just proceed with your plans.  Just be very sure you keep all documentation of the expenses, date and time these plans were made, including the notification email and subsequent correspondence.  You'll need them in case she doesn't relent.  It's his vacation with the kids, it shouldn't matter who made the reservations - except it would be best if you could keep out of the direct line of fire since she may see you as her competition for Mother.  I don't know if there's anything to do before the vacation.  If you fail to return the kids at the regularly scheduled time, then she could file for contempt of court but if it's a vacation and he followed the terms of the order then it should go nowhere.

Does the vacation begin on time when the children are already scheduled to be with you?  Or does it begin when they're with her and you need to do a special pickup from her?  That may be a complication if she won't make an exchange just before you leave.

With my ex, she sometimes didn't do well with options.  Appeasing didn't work well either.  Use of communication skills so as to have less risk of triggering an overreaction is helpful but as you found out it doesn't always work despite our best efforts.

[david]

I don't think you need an atty for this. Find out how to file whatever you need to file. I have found that family court will not tell you what to do but will steer you in the right direction. The sooner you do it the sooner it gets resolved. I assume you have her emails and texts. Bring them with you. You followed the court order so that time should be yours. She hasn't told you her plans and you do not want to point that out. Let her hang herself in front of the judge. Also, if the judge thinks you need to find an alternate date then ex should pay for the additional costs incurred since she gave you no heads up. If she gives her plans in court then what reason does she have to have this particular time. I wouldn't address any of this with her. If she gives her plans in court and not before then that is her problem for not communicating and the children and you should not be punished for her non communication.

Matts advice is the best way to start. I quote the court order and xBPDw has always stopped her nonsense. I personally would not "threaten" court since my ex would immediately want to escalate. I just quote court order and follow it. The most I do is ask for a reply so that "we are both on the same page for the children". If she doesn't reply then you may want to take it to court to make sure.

I actually have done things that didn't follow the court order but had a good reason and it was in our kids best interest. When ex demanded I follow the court order I explained my reason and did what I planned on doing. The latest example, I am supposed to take S14 to karate on Thursdays. I stopped two months ago and sent an email to ex telling her his grades were not where they should be and I was using the Thursday to help him with his school work. I pointed out that if the boys slept over on Thursday I might be able to do both since I would have more time. She threatened me with court but has done nothing. His grades have gone up considerably so I really am not worried and if she did take me to court I would ask for additional time.

[Matt]

Matts advice is the best way to start. I quote the court order and xBPDw has always stopped her nonsense. I personally would not "threaten" court since my ex would immediately want to escalate. I just quote court order and follow it. The most I do is ask for a reply so that "we are both on the same page for the children". If she doesn't reply then you may want to take it to court to make sure.

My concern is, if you don't get a clear agreement from her - since she has already indicated that she will block the vacation - you are at risk that she could ruin things at the last minute.  You need either a very clear, written commitment from her to support the vacation - one you can believe in - or something from the court.  Otherwise it could all go bad at the last minute.

Maybe you could ask to have the kids for 48 hours before the vacation, so if she is going to interfere, you'll know that in time to (maybe) get the court involved and still go on the trip.

You want to find a way to reduce the risk by anticipating what she might do and taking steps to prevent it.  Not just wait and hope.

[hell0kitty]

We are going through something similar.  Our attorney is having us file a motion. It will be seen within 21 days of filing. We filed today. It is very simple, asking the court to amend our parenting plan to avoid this conflict. With her attached denial emails as exhibit A, B and C.

No idea how it will pan out yet.

For vacations in our PP, which I feel is the worst written PP ever, says "summer schedule to be turned in by Apr 1st and tie breakers are Even years mom, odd years dad." We thought this would cover everything.  What we are trying to get added now, since she found the loop hole is "If dates are not turned in by April first parent, date precedence falls to other parent" or something along those lines (Don't have it in front of me) because her nifty trick was to tell us around Apr 1st that she was "gathering her info and will get it to us soon" and then tell us the day school lets out in June that it is her year to have the deciding votes and "oops, turns out I planned vacation on your dates that I've had for the least 3 months" 

Until we get that wording approved and updated, we won't ever plan an expensive vacay on her deciding year again.

[david]

If you do go to court make sure you have a plan for how the order should be written to handle problems you have encountered. Every time I had a plan the judge wrote the court order exactly as I had proposed. Ex never had anything except I am trying to control her, the courts, and anybody else she could think of.

[Matt]

If you do go to court make sure you have a plan for how the order should be written to handle problems you have encountered. Every time I had a plan the judge wrote the court order exactly as I had proposed. Ex never had anything except I am trying to control her, the courts, and anybody else she could think of.

Yeah, that's how it worked for me too - if I had something very well thought out, and worded carefully, then it was cut-and-pasted into the court order, but if we both showed up with just ideas, the court order came out murky.

Do the judge's job for him.