New mem: dxBPDmom; undxBPD niece? Need input.

[DogDancer]

Hello all,

I'm new here. I've been reading this site for over a month now, and I've found it enormously helpful. I'm a 46-year-old woman whose mother, deceased since I was 28, was diagnosed with BPD, with narcissistic traits as well, in the mid-'70s, when my parents briefly attended counseling for couples. Hers was an idiopathic case, where no abuse or major childhood trauma occurred. Sadly, mom never continued with therapy as recommended. She was relatively high functioning, and she was a respected teacher in our community, but she exhibited many of the traits so well discussed in the introductory materials here, as well as in the many fascinating discussion threads. As the eldest and only daughter, with two younger brothers, I was the child she painted black, which she also did to my father. It became so intolerable that I left at 19 to save myself. What a smart young person I was!

Roll forward many years, and I have been in therapy for two years now, finally working through the many ramifications of her mental disorder and the increasing pressure cooker that was my from-the-surface-view, educated, successful, upper-middle-class household of origin. I have made tremendous healing progress although I will be continuing that journey for a while longer.

However, I want to ask for help with something. I'm highly concerned that my niece, who is 12 now, is displaying borderline traits. Her younger brother has been diagnosed with Asperger's -- I know that term is going away, but it's helpful. However, she, too, has alway been atypical, with frequent bouts of intense anger and anxiety, followed by seemingly normal reactions. My brother, her father, was split as the "good child" in my mother's view, and is the only one in the family who has not acknowledged what the rest of us know about her. I was just caring for my nieces and nephew while their parents traveled, and I interacted with my niece daily. Before my brother and his wife left, he said "[Niece] has a negative and cynical personality, and there's nothing we can do about that. She means well, she is a good girl, too. She's just really negative and kind of moody, too," implying that the moody thing was more that she's entering puberty. As I said, what I saw worries me greatly, and I will be approaching my brother about taking her to a psychologist. I may or may not mention the Dx I suspect, but I will discuss the need for professional evaluation and assistance. I had broached this a year ago, but they were in the throes of dealing with their Aspergers child, and my brother was not open to it then. He thought he and his wife could just "work on it" with her. Clearly, they have not been successful, and she is worse.  

My question is this: What behaviors and traits have people here seen in their children with either diagnosed or suspected BPD? I'd like to know what you saw going on with them between 6 and 12, particularly with the daughters.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide now, and thank you all for all of the information, comfort and guidance you've unknowingly provided on this site already. Let the healing and successful coping continue!

Peace to you --

DogDancer    

[livednlearned]

Hi Dogdancer,



Just wanted to say hello, and tell you how eloquent you are! I've just begun to realize how much dealing with a BPD partner has taught me about myself and then I read your post, and it struck me how people who heal from these relationships have a special something. 

Your family is so fortunate that you can see the signs and are taking steps to provide assistance. I worried that my son might be BPD, so I understand the worries and radar for red flags that something more serious that "moods" might be happening.

I've read elsewhere on this site that many members recommend Essential Family Guide. It was published in 2008 and has more updated research about some of the treatments and therapies that can help people and families experiencing BPD.

Another article caught my attention that might be useful: Borderline Personality Disorder in Adolescents - Blaise A. Aguirre, MD

I don't want to overwhelm you with resources, but I used to be a librarian and can't help myself when someone is seeking information! Here is another link that lists other resources for parents of kids with BPD. Suggested Reading for members who are supporting a son or daughter with BPD

As the sister of a brother who is uBPD, I feel deeply traumatized by my childhood experience, living in a home with someone so out of control with his rage. It affected me so deeply, and I'm touched just thinking there's a grown up in your niece's life who would care enough to intervene.

I wish you well in your healing and hope you keep posting and letting us know how you're doing.

[DogDancer]

Dear livednlearned,

Thank you so much for your reply. I'm a little teary just re-reading your kind, encouraging words. I know that I need to broach this with my brother, and that my niece is struggling. I could see her painting me black and white, or what might be the precursors to fully doing that, and I could feel her fear and anxiety. She is in pain. I can also see my youngest niece, who is 7, start to feel pain, too: She so dearly loves her elder siblings, who both now are dealing with very strong emotions and a lot of anger. I am healed enough in my own journey that I am in a much better place to do what needs to be done for the family -- which is start talking with my brother. This clearly will touch on all the places where we've feared to tread. However, one step at a time... .  the main goal being to get the elder niece help asap. I hope that I am wrong, and that it is not full-blow BPD. Perhaps it is BPD traits that are not yet so intractable. Regardless, professional help is what she needs.

I *so* appreciate you mentioning the resources that you did because knowledge is power, or at least the foundation of it. Thank you. I will get copies of these right away. And I have to chuckle: I used to be a librarian, too, so I appreciate your method to my core. 

I will continue to participate here. I wasn't ready before. Now I am. What a wonderful place we have here.

Peace and more healing to you and to us all,

DogDancer

[livednlearned]

A fellow librarian!  

There is so much empathy and wisdom in what you say -- knowing how your observations might potentially trigger deeper things in your brother. Very wise to know this! My father was the "golden child" of his BPD mother (my grandmother), and so I think of him when you talk about your brother, and know that it is something that requires a lot of delicacy to bring up "problems" that are rooted in our families of origin. When I divorced my N/BPDx husband, it triggered my dad and I am now into month 7 of silent treatment.  :'(

Professional help for my son led to miracles. He had some very upsetting coping mechanisms at age 8, and now he is thriving. He still has to negotiate middle school, but I learned about validating his feelings (just in time, I believe) from people here, and bought a book (Power of Validation). My son is more codependent than BPD, but I have to believe in my heart that reaching kids at a young age is the key, no matter what the diagnosis might be. I think your story moves me so much because it hits close to home for me. Having a sympathetic witness in your life, especially as a child, is everything.

Glad you'll continue to post and find support here. What I learned here from others dealing with similar experiences literally changed my life.

[DogDancer]

That's so encouraging that your son is doing better! Proof that early help is powerful! I'm so relieved to hear it for your sake and for what I feel must happen in my own family.

Power of Validation, eh -- I will get that one, too. I'm starting to understand the validation needs involved in helping those wBPD or BPD personality style traits. Clearly, everyone needs validation that what they are feeling is important! The difference is in not validating by re-enforcing and encouraging behaviors that are unhealthy, e.g. overreactions to those feelings, "feelings replacing/creating facts," etc.

I will admit that this has been somewhat difficult for me. It's not that I don't understand the need for this intellectually. It's that I'm still processing my own anger at the treatment I received by someone irrational, mother, who not only did not provide the loving care that I needed, but invalidated my feelings, experiences and needs. My own anger is driving some "are you kidding me, get real, why do you deserve kidglove treatment" feelings toward my niece and some not-so-pretty-to-admit feelings of schadenfreude towards my golden-child brother: See, now you are experiencing karma, buddy! So take that! He has always been so smug on the surface... .  and so seemingly in denial about our mother and her role and responsibility for the dynamics in our FOO. It's always been much easier for him to focus on our father, who is a recovering alcoholic -- dad's unhealthy coping method for dealing with mom, life, etc.   

This is some deep, unpretty truth that I'm posting in hopes that it helps clear more of these feelings out so that I might continue to proceed clearly, calmly and with love, from the healed/healing place within, and follow through with what I know needs to happen to try to help my niece and help my brother.

Is it really a major surprise that Niece's behavior pushes my buttons, eh... .  ? Wry smile. She's even named for my mother. Clearly no surprise!

Yes, I want to be done with the anger, but it's not done with me yet.  As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I did not post many weeks ago is that I was still at this place in my therapy of moving out some serious rage that I'd bottled up. You speak so kindly of my eloquence, friend, yet I was afraid that all I'd have to post would be rants about my long-dead mother of the "you stupid, f---ing b-tch" variety.

And then the universe intervened -- few coincidences it often seems -- and I was called to watch my nieces and nephew, who live in another state, and whom I talk to fairly regularly but only see once or twice per year. This visit showed me that although I *am* processing anger still, I am stronger and better: i was able to interact with my niece mostly without going to a serious knee-jerk, you will-do-what-i-say, I-am-another-ANGRY-SCARY-ADULT place. And I am (almost!) ready to tackle the delicate task of discussing this with my brother. THANK YOU, livednlearned, for recognizing and validating the reality that this *is* delicate... .  and possibly triggering for us all. It is. You have lived all this, it is apparent.

Again, I am so, so encouraged that your son has benefitted from professional help!

I will hold onto this thought as I proceed. And another thought before I close this post: I know I cannot force outcomes, and I cannot do the work for brother or niece, however, I will advocate for my niece. I wish someone had advocated for me, too, friend. I will try on her behalf. I will try for all of us in my family. I want us to work together to break the behavioral cycle, and to the extent possible, "outsmart" the genetic component that drives this, too. 

DogDancer   

[livednlearned]

Your insights and words really moved me -- my turn to tear up! One of the big lightbulb moments for me in my healing from N/BPDxh was how BPD runs in my family, and both the existence of it, and the ignorance about it made it so easy for me to marry someone with the same behaviors. It's hard to look back and see how deeply dysfunctional and painful our family actually was, and still is. I understand what you mean by having so much anger. For me, it was my father and brother, and the anger, when I started to really feel it? Watch. Out. And feeling anger wasn't something I was very good at, so when it came in, hoowheeeee did it feel weird.

Do we ever really get over the anger? What I'm trying to understand is where all the triggers are -- clearly I was always feeling angry, just turned it inward and ignored it. Now I'm paying attention, noticing how things affect me, and trying to change the patterns so I don't pass too much old baggage onto my son. I laughed out loud at your comment about the ANGRY-SCARY-ADULT place -- I have that in me too, and am ashamed that it was in my parenting quiver when my son was young. It's all I knew, and parenting is stressful, and I could make myself cry just thinking about what it must have been like for my son at age 4 to experience that.  :'(

I hope you continue posting about what happens with your niece, and you and your brother. I haven't been looking too closely at BPD in my family because, well, sometimes you need to pace the pain train   But your post moved me a lot, made me realize that we grow when we do what is right and true. I make my family uncomfortable because I say things that hit close to home, but up to now, I have always talked about things in very careful, controlled ways, and usually the focus is on N/BPDxh and my son. I talk about what N/BPDxh does, and it is very similar to what my brother and father do, and that makes everyone squirm. It might be time to be more direct.

I say that, and immediately feel scared  

Thanks for what you wrote -- I admire what you're doing, and admire your courage  

[DogDancer]

Livednlearned hello,

Oh yes... .  the anger... .  I hear you. It's pretty intense, isn't it. Like much of what goes on in therapy, the anger has both surprised/not surprised me. The tears... .  I've been crying in almost every weekly session for two years. Intellectually, I knew I'd bottled up and ignored a lot of hurt and frustration about mom's BPD and dad's alcoholism. When I started really digging in, though, the well of it was so much deeper than I thought, and it's not run dry yet. I'm wondering if it ever will. My T promises that it will, and I am feeling better and letting go of anxiety slowly but surely, so I'm trying not to worry about where the bottom is.

But as for the anger, wow, this is some serious flashpoint stuff! That's been harder to bring up, for me, too, which is interesting, because "being" angry was a way I coped with it all when I left the house at 19 and throughout my 20s. However, the anger I'm experiencing now, during this purposeful, committed healing time is deeper, feels more primitive, and like you, this hasn't been easy for me. Per T's work with me, I've got a whiffle bat in the basement -- and I've used it a few times on one bad--ss BPD pile of laundry next to the washing machine  ! However, this part feels stop-start and a little bit stymied.

I got so angry, however, during the first pass at reading "Eggshells" and "Understanding the Borderline Mother" that although I throughly read the descriptive sections, I couldn't do more than just lightly skim the sections on how to interact with BPDs. My hostility was palpable, and my only thought in four-lettered highlighting was "Uh, no WAY! The BPD in my life, mom, is dead, and there ain't gonna be another!"

Fair enough regarding significant others (another saga, and there is an NPD in MY past, too!), and picking/keeping friends, but like you, I'm clearly not done with how it's affected my family's dynamics either, and with my niece in possible jeopardy, opting out of learning about this is not an option I feel is wise for my continued healing, or for any work that might need doing within the family.

What's more, lnl -- and don't you just love how the universe loves a little synchronicity! -- a colleague from an organization I belong to, with whom it seemed we were building a personal friendship, acted out over this last year in a way that that points *strongly* towards BPD! I won't get into many details about how this BPD slowly started to reveal herself, but in the last interaction I had with her at a meeting in November, she verbally attacked me in a heading-spinning display of TEXTBOOK "Tag you're it" behavior (p. 58-59 in "Eggshells" first ed.). Too bad cameras weren't rolling because a freeze frame of her little scene would be a perfect instructional video for BPD. I was floored, and I've cut off all contact, which is not hard to do given the object constancy issue that is also likely at play (although some contact through the organization might be necessary in the future)... .  but... .  but... .  on the upside, it's helped highlight the much less obvious but similar "invisible" BPD stuff that went on in my family.   

However, my natural compassion is now reappearing. I am able to get a glimpse of the child-within-BPDs by seeing my niece. Although I still have anger to move out, this visceral experience with a child now, and not just any child, but one I love, has helped me visualize how my mother might have been as a child, and it's helped me feel some compassion towards her. Yeah, I hear you, too, lnl about feeling bad about the ANGRY-SCARY-ADULT stuff you used with your son at 4, but... .  children, esp. ones who are loved as well as yours is, are really resilient. You got him *great* help, so, yeah, he knows your scary stuff, but he's experienced for much longer now, your effective, validating, loving guidance, and you've also shown him that reaching out to professionals for help is GOOD and WISE and HEALTHY. So, I'd say you're doing a bang-up job. He's a lucky mannie.    

Bro has not responded to the email I sent asking to talk privately soon; I think he's busy dealing with his return to work, and possibly with some difficulties my aspie nephew is having with his sports team. Bro's plate is full, that is for sure. Which means, I'll have to push some more on this... .  soon.

How interesting that you said you make your family squirm when you are direct and that even thinking about that makes you scared... .  me, too, me, too! This whole thing clearly has me nerved up. BUT... .  I'm doing a lot of self soothing, and reminding myself not to catastrophize, and that I don't have to dive into all of it all at once. And I don't have to mention BPD per se (at first) when I bring up concerns and suggestions for niece. Oh, and I ordered several books that you and others suggested, and I after I have a chance to read the Power of Validation, I suspect I will suggest to my bro if I can mail it to him at his work address, so he has a chance to read it and think about it regarding interactions with my niece. I'm going to go exercise right now, too, to move out some anxiety I've had since discussing this all at length here and in a GREAT session with T on Wednesday.

Thank you for all of your comments and sharing, lnl. You're right: this board is so helpful, so reassuring, so (and here's the magic word) VALIDATING.    It's helping me to have courage -- and hope.

Peace and continued healing to us all,

DogDancer

[livednlearned]

Hi Dogdancer,

I don't think I really knew where to go next with my healing until I read your posts. I came here because my ex is BPD, and more intellectually than emotionally, I realized through my divorce ordeal that BPD runs in my family. Most of what I've learned about BPD has to do with N/BPDxh, and I've dabbled in understanding my own codependence. Thank you for writing about your story with so much clarity, because it made me see myself more clearly. We are part of a web of BPD, and like you said so well,

I'm clearly not done with how it's affected my family's dynamics either, and with my niece in possible jeopardy, opting out of learning about this is not an option I feel is wise for my continued healing, or for any work that might need doing within the family.

It still feels clinical when I use the word "abusive" to describe my childhood. I have cried and felt angry, but I am still not in a place where the path looks clear. Where to next? When you wrote about your own healing and the dynamics in your family, that resonated so much with me, even though I don't know where to take it from here.

I'm in a new r/s with someone who believes his sister is BPD. Coincidence? What I notice is how kind and respectful he is, so different than my last r/s. That's an improvement -- I tell myself it means I am healing that I would pick a kind person. But I can also see myself in him, the part that isn't ready to drop the mask and be authentic. When you bottle up so much anger, and feel such shame, for so long it's hard to remember life without those feelings, it's hard to be real with someone else. Intellectually, I can see the way, but emotionally it's so muddy. And scary. I suspect you understand 

Your comments about natural compassion returning, and being able to see the child within the BPD. That is profound. I'm rounding that corner myself, and don't think I could have done it a minute sooner, at least not until I knew how to protect myself and throw down a boundary when the moment called for it. I feel like I'm at an intersection, getting ready for the next big decision about how to move ahead and go deeper into the dynamics in my family.

We really do learn from each other here on these boards. I'm so glad you posted, and will be thinking about you and the work ahead with your family. It feels good to know we're not alone. 

[DogDancer]

Livedinlearned hi,

What are you thinking you might do next with your healing in regards to your family? Is there anything specific that's starting to feel like you might want to do?

This is just it, too, I think I was just getting to the point, the very beginning of the point that I want to bring up mom's BPD explicitly with my middle bro for my own healing. And now... .  well... .  because of niece it's time to tread gently again.

Part of me just doesn't want to tread there at all. Another part of me wants to rip off the band-aid. I was half tempted to do that. Now, I realize, though, and have discussed this with T that bro just hasn't done any (much) "work" mom work yet. He's not ready to admit all this. I've had little signs that he's not unaware, and little bits of "breakthrough" supportive gestures, but at the same time he's also in denial. And now -- I'll say it -- my own needs feel again like they are taking a back seat to the need to proceed carefully due to the needs of *his* child. There, I admitted it. I KNOW I will do the right thing here. It's too important not to at at least try to get her help. Yet, I'm tired of eggshells. So tired.

Still... .  and yet... .  the "work" as T and I refer to it is not linear, and it's full of crossbacks, loops, and unexpected opportunities, and it's not a surprise, really, what is going on within the family. It's just not what I'd hoped for.

I'm curious, too. You divorced your N/BPDexH and it triggered your (golden-child of your BPD grandmother) father into giving you the silent treatment. Has he said why? What's his line about this? How is the rest of the family buying this behavior?

You said something that rang a bell with me: "It feels clinical when I use the word abuse to describe my childhood." I can intellectually say that I know that I was both emotionally neglected and emotionally abused, but it's hard to use the word "abuse." I wonder why? Is it because I don't want to admit that? Is it because I was so badly split and gaslighted and everyone just ignored it and I don't think I'll be believed because it wasn't physical abuse? Because that's not totally logical: My little brother validated me. Even my recovering alcoholic father, with whom I have had NC for a good number of years (dry drunk behavior, and I'd had it), apologized during his amends for leaving me essentially alone with her. He was the one who told me after things had gotten so bad, not too long after I left the house, I think, maybe when I was 20 or 21, that mom had been dx w/ BPD, and a few other things that helped me understand why she'd been so hard on me. For which I was so grateful at the time. His admission to me helped many things click into place, and it helped me get through. So not everyone invalidates the reality of what I went through. They were there. 

And (to state the obvious! ) Clearly, two years of crying and talking aloud and processing to release 40+ years of pent up hurt and sadness... .  and to re-learn how not to be anxious (so much more bottled up anxiety and a habit of responding to things with anxiety than I'd realized!) didn't come from no where. (Full stop. Exclamation Point!) Interesting. It feels like I'm going to have to talk some more with close friends, and bring up BPD more explicitly than I have. It's not that I haven't at all. It's just starting to feel like it's time again, and to do so in more depth. Must validate myself this way. I have to trust that by working this process, what I want will happen: I *will* be further down this healing path, and I won't need to be so immersed in the BPD and issues of the past so much... .  some day. Because I so want to not be bathing in this so much; yet... .  that's where I am right now. Okay... .  whoo... .  deep breath. I've got some more things to do.

You also said that you've picked a kind man now, so you must be healing. You should feel great about that! So good to hear you've got some happiness in that aspect of life!   However, I gently wanted to point out that N/BPDexH, probably presented himself as wonderful to you at first. Because it's what they *do*! It's true that now that you've worked so hard on all this -- not to mention all that you learned about these patterns through this experience -- you'd much better at recognizing the signs. Don't beat yourself up though, even a little, that you didn't pick up signs before or ignored them. You are not a patsy or walking target! I agree all the way that not having healed from your own BPD family stuff might have made you more vulnerable and lacking in some boundaries... .  but... .  BUT... .  look at all the folks that get "fooled" by N/BPDs all the time! Including many, many folks that (apparently) did not grow up with personality disordered families.

Also this: It might not be a coincidence that your new sig other's sister has BPD. And the timing... .  the first boyfriend out of the gate, yes, that makes it feel that way I'm sure. Something I'm realizing though (I know it intellectually -- I'm just *feeling* it now), is that even though I'm the one who often says "no coincidences," BPD and other mental health issues are so common, so prevalent, that we're just going to keep running into people that have them or are dealing with the fallout from their families. Truly, what family doesn't have some axis I or II issue, if not many, running throughout it? I say this not to normalize the dysfunction, or freak us all out at the thought of running into/having to interact with more of the disordered, but to encourage us to keep healing, keep understanding more, keep working on healing, coping and, yes, interaction techniques, because that's reality.

Perhaps your sig other is ready to drop the mask, too. Maybe do some healing alongside and with you? What a lovely thought... .  I'll be really interested to see what you feel and choose to do next, lnl. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a good move, whatever it is, big or a small step. 

Let's keep healing! Peace and hugs,

DogDancer