Projection

[GreenTea]

Is it fairly safe to say that when they are raging, they are actually airing their feelings subconsciously?

My uBPDh just this week said that I have been very mean to him over the past week. I have no idea where this has come from as I am the type that runs from conflict.

I am not home from work but 10 minutes and it starts up. And these rages start over little things like I forgot to shut the foyer door when I left for work, our 5D begins to eat her sandwich first rather than her soup, I took a water bottle to the gym and now I'm not being environmentally friendly (HE bought the case of water bottles and I had misplaced by refillable one), etc. etc.

From him I hear that I am the master of manipulation, I'm on a power-hungry trip, I have an acidic mean streak that runs right below the surface, etc. etc. Unless I am totally in denial, these claims are laughable as they run counter to the person that I am.

Is he really talking about himself?

[Newton]

My interpretation of your first sentence "they are actually airing these feelings subconsciously?"... .  would sound to me like "they are airing subconcious feelings"... .  but in addition to this it's important to remember that for a pwBPD their feelings are VERY real to them... .  and they are often much nearer the surface than we realise... .  

Those feelings may not match up with the way you perceive the world... .  but nontheless for someone who is processing information in a very different way from you or I, their feelings ARE real... .  

This is why attempting to argue them out of a position can be so invalidating, and escalate a seemingly innocuous discussion about a water bottle into a full blown argument... .  you are not only contradicting their point of view... .  but you are telling them their feelings (which equate to pure facts for them, and represent the little identity they have)... .  are not really happening... .  or are "wrong".  In addition... .  their mirror (you)... .  is suddenly reflecting back a very unsavoury, unpaletable image of them... .   

For someone with a very unstable sense of self this whole encounter will add to their feelings of invalidation, worthlessness, shame, persecution etc... .  

A reaction to these feelings could well be projection... .  attempting to dump those negative feelings onto another... .  and who best than the original persecutor that "caused" them... .  (I use the word "caused" with caution and reservations here)... .  

How do you react to this projection?... .  Is it possible you could try some validating sentences when these "little" things arise?... .  The claims you are hearing are not laughable for a pwBPD... .  they are very very real... .  

[LetItBe]

From him I hear that I am the master of manipulation

Unless I am totally in denial, these claims are laughable as they run counter to the person that I am.

I, too, heard from my uBPDxbf, "I've been feeling like you're trying to trick me," and, "There's a test around every corner!"  This happened while he was setting up various no-win communication scenarios. 

I know that's not the kind of person I am.  That's what's important.

To him, his feelings are facts, and I'm sure in some way, he really did feel I was trying to "trick him," even if it makes no sense to me. 

[bruceli]

As I was once told by a pwBPD... .  It is as confusing for me to understand your world as it is for you to understand mine... .  

[GreenTea]

My interpretation of your first sentence "they are actually airing these feelings subconsciously?"... .  would sound to me like "they are airing subconcious feelings"... .  but in addition to this it's important to remember that for a pwBPD their feelings are VERY real to them... .  and they are often much nearer the surface than we realise... .  

Newton, your interpretation is what I meant. I know that he sees the world much differently than most people. If I could have a dime for every time he's said that!

How do you react to this projection?... .  Is it possible you could try some validating sentences when these "little" things arise?... .  The claims you are hearing are not laughable for a pwBPD... .  they are very very real... .  

I know that his feelings are his reality and nothing I do or say will change that. I usually go into "shutdown" mode if things have been too much. It seems that anything I say or don't say will set him off. I don't know how else to describe it. Other times, I will use SET although it's usually pointless.

For example, the water bottle incident went like this:

He saw a water bottle in the fridge that I was getting cold for the next morning at the gym. So he pops his head into our daughter's room as I'm reading books to her before bed.

H: You know it's environmentally unfriendly to use water bottles every day. I hope you're reusing them or better yet, you could just buy one and refill it every day

Me: I know that you're concerned that I may be acting wasteful. That's one of the things I like about you. I feel it's wasteful to go through water bottles myself. The truth is I left my refillable one at the gym which is why I'm taking a water bottle tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to find mine tomorrow.

H: Why must you always defend yourself? If you would just stop and THINK, then you wouldn't have problems like losing your water bottle. He then stomps off.

Me: 

How could I have handled that conversation better? He's the one that buys the cases of water bottles anyway. I usually have my refillable one. It is getting INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT to have a discussion/conversation with him of ANY kind.

When he projects, I sometimes use phrases like, "I'm sorry you feel that way, I'd feel that way too if I felt that I was treated that way." If he is raging, I walk out of the room stating, "I won't engage in a conversation when someone is shouting at me. When we are both calm I will be more than happy to talk with you." He then takes that as I'm ignoring him and how I always have to control when we talk. And yes, I'm ignoring the criticisms, belittling talk, and swearing. What else am I supposed to do?

[Newton]

I'm not sure there is much else you can do re: communication... .  it sounds like you are using SET and enforcing your boundaries really well! 

It can be very wearing to have to employ this stuff all the time just to get through a day... .  

Eventually we have to evaluate if what we have in our relationships are worth the effort we put in vs what we are getting out of them... .  emotionally, physically, sexually... .  that counts for all relationships... .  not just with a pwBPD.

So where are you now in that evaluation?... .  

[recoil]

Eventually we have to evaluate if what we have in our relationships are worth the effort we put in vs what we are getting out of them... .  emotionally, physically, sexually... .  that counts for all relationships... .  not just with a pwBPD.

So very true.

I stuck this in my list of sticky notes.  Thanks for sharing it!

[GreenTea]

So where are you now in that evaluation?... .  

I've had separation papers since February. I am scared to make that move. Yes, it's the FOG. We separated for 3 months last year, and it was SO peaceful. Sadly, I didn't miss him. Sadly, our 5D never asked about him. I went back on some of my boundaries about that separation and regret it. I know that if I go through with a legal one, it's for good. Divorce would be his call.

He has no friends outside of me. He just got a job offer here, and if we do separate, he's going back to the States with nothing. It's the FOG. We are two roommates and have been that way for years.

[Chazz]

GreenTea... .  Jeesh, I'm so sorry you and your daughter are going through this. 

You've received some great feedback from Newton. NonGF and Recoil have co-identified with your situation. I identify, too. Life with a pwBPD is a daily struggle that wears "us" out on all levels. It can leave "us" burnt out husks.

As to FOG keeping "us" trapped in place - which it so often does:  I've done a reversal in my head about FOG. Rather than making it about my pwBPD, I've made it about me as in: F = What are my fears about staying or leaving... .  O = what are my obligations to myself to keep myself healthy emotionally, physically, and spiritually... .  G = what is the basis of my guilt in the situation? Am I acting out ancient guilt based in a historic context of deprivation/self-deprivation (martyrdom)? Why do I see myself as a caretaker even as I chronically ignore my own needs?

GreenTea, I'm not saying any of this is easy. It's taken me years and multiple recycles to even get to a place where I am starting to make my needs primary. It's hard work, especially, when we're consorting with someone who drains us of hopefulness and motivation. I may be out of turn for saying this, so please excuse me if I am. What of your child? Is this the kind of relational model you want imprinted on her psyche? I can tell you, from experience, it can cause one to make very poor choices in their adult lives.

   

[Newton]

Great post Chazz ... .  ... .  very insightful... .  just wanted to say... .  

[Chazz]

Thank you, Newton.

We have to walk towards the light even when we feel like we can't go a step further. We're worth it - so are our children.

[LetItBe]

Great post Chazz ... .  ... .  very insightful... .  just wanted to say... .  

Agreed! 

[Newton]

Green Tea's post seems to highlight such a common thread here on the undecided board... .  

The cognitive dissonance that arises from knowing deep down what is best for us but fearing the pain and discomfort that decision will cause... .  (FOG)

Many members here have to return to a futile situation repeatedly until all hope is exhausted... .  

We each have to make our own decision when enough is actually enough... .  or accept that what we "get" from the relationship is worth the effort. That requires a choice, and subsequent behaviour... .  not doing this is why it's often said that the undecided board is not a healthy option, long term... .  

Therapy is a fantastic tool to explore our motives for choosing to be in these relationships... .  often once we become aware of how we are attempting to fix the past, through our current partner... .  their allure melts away very quickly.

[GreenTea]

First, thank you all for your responses. I'm so grateful for this board. 

GreenTea... .  I may be out of turn for saying this, so please excuse me if I am. What of your child? Is this the kind of relational model you want imprinted on her psyche? I can tell you, from experience, it can cause one to make very poor choices in their adult lives.    

Chazz, I do appreciate your honesty, and no, you're not out of turn. That is what has actually pushed me to get to this point. Funny my uBPDh has told me countless times that everything changed when she was born. Well, YES! I never wanted to bring a child into this world until WE were emotionally stable.That's when I started drawing my boundaries and enabling him as best as I could. I didn't want her to grow up thinking that this is how a husband should treat his wife.  I knew nothing of BPD back then. But this is it right here... .  In my head, I'm ready to take action; but then I'll come home, and my D will run up to me so excited and say, "Mommy, look what Daddy and me made!" or something of the like. And I'll think to myself, "I'm going to take my girl away from this relationship." Granted, relationship building between the two of them is almost always on his time, his terms, but still... .  and then I'M the one that is going to break that up.

But then, there are some behaviors that I see in her that I don't want developed. Your interpretation of FOG is the way I should start looking at it, if I can shut out my H's barbs that I'm the selfish one: everything is always about me, my feelings, my desires... .  (projection again  )

Green Tea's post seems to highlight such a common thread here on the undecided board... .  

We each have to make our own decision when enough is actually enough... .  or accept that what we "get" from the relationship is worth the effort. That requires a choice, and subsequent behaviour... .  not doing this is why it's often said that the undecided board is not a healthy option, long term... .  

It's not healthy. This decision has literally consumed my thoughts. I've been undecided for two years now... .  it's time to take action or hunker down for the long haul.

[GreenTea]

I meant to say that my D helped me to get to the point where I STOPPED enabling him as best I could, not continue!

[dickL]

tried for many years to see uBPDw try to make 2+2=4, in BPD world i've learned it doesn't and my approach was destructive. always played your sick , not me . she refuses T and even though 25 S and are in T she carps how she she sees no positive results from our T, " waste of time ".

[Chazz]

... .  I didn't want her to grow up thinking that this is how a husband should treat his wife.  I knew nothing of BPD back then. But this is it right here... .  In my head, I'm ready to take action; but then I'll come home, and my D will run up to me so excited and say, "Mommy, look what Daddy and me made!" or something of the like. And I'll think to myself, "I'm going to take my girl away from this relationship." Granted, relationship building between the two of them is almost always on his time, his terms, but still... .  and then I'M the one that is going to break that up.

GreenTea... .  Your pwBPD is breaking up the home, NOT you. BPD parents use their children; sometimes they buy them with stuff. They never parent them with consistent love, nurturing and attention. They ALWAYS instill an unhealthy understanding of relational dynamics.

He is breaking up the home, NOT you... .  His relationship with your daughter can, if he makes the time and effort, continue after you separate. That is entirely on him to do.




 

[GreenTea]

He is breaking up the home, NOT you... .  

I have had a handful of friends/counselors say the same thing. Why can't I accept that? I do feel like I'm letting him down, but at the same time, I do have a daughter to think about. Tonight was another rage because he's had all weekend and today to get a resume together and it's still not done. Seriously? He isn't employed right now. Nobody was home all day today. He's on me because I'm not understanding or respecting what he's trying to do. I'm left scratching my head. D5 and I left for the afternoon yesterday to give him some peace and quiet. I've asked him how things are coming along, I've read through his resume/cover letter and edited them. I'm not quite sure what he wants or expects me from me. (Sorry, little side vent).

D5 went to bed crying, refusing books or CD which is nighttime routine. I assured her that she is not the cause of the problem or the problem at all. The problem is between Mommy and Daddy only. She asked me to lay with her until she was asleep. These nights don't happen often. This may have been the 2nd or 3rd time this year. But now that I typed that, that does seem like a lot. They shouldn't happen at all.

We have to walk towards the light even when we feel like we can't go a step further. We're worth it - so are our children.

So, for me the light is separation, long term. And yes, I'm tired and don't feel like a can go a step more. The big step is actually having that conversation which says, "I can't do this anymore. I want a separation."  :'(

[almost789]

Radical acceptance that your partner has a mental disorder and that none of your skills or tools are going to stop him from projecting, splitting, fear of abandoment/engulfment and other things integral to the disorder. What the tools will do is deescalate the problems and help YOU to cope better. Not eliminate his problems. I guess you have to accept if you can or even want to 1. accept this as is, or 2. make him being in treatment a boundary, or 3. leave. Its your choice, but you can't change his disorder with these skills. I personally would not judge anyone who was in a relationship/family with children involved or any other relationship for that matter if they left for their own sanity or their childrens.