Hope can only be about the steps you yourself can take.

[DreamFlyer99]

Split from: topic=87480

I keep seeing the word "hope" in this thread by those (like me) who would love to see a change in the person they either ARE with or WANT to be with. i'd like to share what my T told me about "hope" (not new to her, but definitely to me!)

"Hope can only be about the steps you yourself can take. Otherwise it's simply wishful thinking or magical thinking." TRUTH. our hope has to be in what we learn to deal with their BPD issues. "Hope" that THEY will change is just wishful thinking. My H isn't interested in working on himself, especially as long as he can verbally push me away or get me to leave him alone.

I'm the only person I can "hope" to change.

Your therapist is good! I love this... . I actually just wrote it down... . thanks for sharing your wisdom dreamflyer99, much appreciated!

Thanks, and I am GLAD to share my therapist's wisdom, musicfan! Now if I could just put all of it into effect in my life, right?   I have to give her credit for her enormous patience. I hate to think where'd I be now if I didn't have her in my life over the past 12 years of life-stuff.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[musicfan42]

Therapy is hard work dreamflyer99. I know what you mean when you say "if I could just put all of it into effect in my life" but change is usually gradual. There is a Buddhist idea that a jug fills drop by drop-that it's all really baby steps and then eventually it adds up to a big something. I know what it's like to want to be "fixed" right now-to feel that sense of impatience and frustration with myself but at the same time, I know that I have made some progress so that counts. I think that everyone is learning all the time anyways-life is a journey after all... . no one has it "all figured out" and that's okay. I read something in this forum about how in relationships, it's fine to say "I'm not okay, you're not okay but it's okay" and I liked that.

I'm also realising that there is such a thing as PTSD for a reason-I found it traumatising dealing with a pwBPD after a while because I was constantly being gas-lit so eventually I didn't trust my own perception of reality... . I'd trust someone else's perceptions over my own, thus making me easier to manipulate/control. I think that is the only point of gaslighting-to gain control over the person. It was only after therapy that I began to trust my own instincts. I sensed intuitively that when I had an emotional reaction, there were certain people that manipulated that to make me look "crazy" so I worked hard on remaining calm so that I'd never again be labelled like that. I've worked really hard on my communication skills so no one can subject me to that type of thing again-yes, I still feel a certain level of anger over it. I think that in those situations, you're often in a "no win" situation-that if you cow down to their excessive demands, then you feel like a pushover whereas if you stand up for yourself, you're called "a bhit", selfish etc etc. I've mentioned before in previous posts how I used to engage in chameleon-like behaviour... . again, I think this is linked to the gaslighting... . that I was being told nothing I was doing was right so I felt like I had to blend into my environment... . the experience really took my sense of self/identity away from me but now I'm getting it back!

I didn't know that it was called "gaslighting" until today (!) but after therapy, I just knew at a gut level that it was not okay. I feel so validated to find out that there's a term for it! It's challenging to recover from that kind of psychological abuse so give yourself a break!

[DreamFlyer99]

Therapy is hard work dreamflyer99. I know what you mean when you say "if I could just put all of it into effect in my life" but change is usually gradual. There is a Buddhist idea that a jug fills drop by drop-that it's all really baby steps and then eventually it adds up to a big something. I know what it's like to want to be "fixed" right now-to feel that sense of impatience and frustration with myself but at the same time, I know that I have made some progress so that counts. I think that everyone is learning all the time anyways-life is a journey after all... . no one has it "all figured out" and that's okay. I read something in this forum about how in relationships, it's fine to say "I'm not okay, you're not okay but it's okay" and I liked that.

Exactly! We are learning all the time, tho I was hoping at my age to feel like I had SOME things together! And it's definitely baby steps, and one thing learned builds on another.

I'm also realising that there is such a thing as PTSD for a reason-I found it traumatising dealing with a pwBPD after a while because I was constantly being gas-lit so eventually I didn't trust my own perception of reality... . I'd trust someone else's perceptions over my own, thus making me easier to manipulate/control. I think that is the only point of gaslighting-to gain control over the person. It was only after therapy that I began to trust my own instincts. I sensed intuitively that when I had an emotional reaction, there were certain people that manipulated that to make me look "crazy" so I worked hard on remaining calm so that I'd never again be labelled like that. I've worked really hard on my communication skills so no one can subject me to that type of thing again-yes, I still feel a certain level of anger over it.

Absolutely understand this! I even said to my T one time that in my uBPDh's arguments I felt like I was being gaslighted, and this was before she suggested I read the book about "Stop walking on eggshells." In fact, that may have been the day she did. But on some level I knew that what he was saying was so confusing because I didn't really agree with his assessment of me, but boy did he want to put me off-balance! And yep, i'm having some serious trouble getting to the point of being able to forgive him for some of the needlessly cruel things he said during the worst times of it, so I understand your anger.

I just found myself nodding "uhuh uhuh uhuh" to everything you said in this last post. So stinking familiar!

Here's to learning and growing and the whole package!

[ForeverDad]

And yep, I'm having some serious trouble getting to the point of being able to forgive him for some of the needlessly cruel things he said during the worst times of it, so I understand your anger.

To forgive - or not - has been a frequent topic here.  I'd like to note that some people just can't 'forgive' someone who has done emotionally cruel, heartless and even abusive things, since they feel that at some point the actions and patterns pass from illness and weaknesses into the purposeful realm of intentional bad behavior patterns.  So if you find it hard to forgive, ponder the semantically similar option of just Letting Go.  That way you don't contradict your own inner sense of boundaries, standards and culpability by gifting the other person a free pass, yet allow yourself to Let Go and Move On.  All too often here we find that we can't do anything about the pwBPD or some other acting-out PD, so we just have to grant the equivalent for ourselves to ourselves.  I hope that reasoning makes sense.

Also, a risk of forgiveness is that we Nice Guys and Nice Gals could feel guilted into giving the relationship yet another try.  That's risky because we could be getting right back on the roller coaster if the pwBPD/xPD hasn't truly changed for the better.

[DreamFlyer99]

And yep, I'm having some serious trouble getting to the point of being able to forgive him for some of the needlessly cruel things he said during the worst times of it, so I understand your anger.

To forgive - or not - has been a frequent topic here.  I'd like to note that some people just can't 'forgive' someone who has done emotionally cruel, heartless and even abusive things, since they feel that at some point the actions and patterns pass from illness and weaknesses into the purposeful realm of intentional bad behavior patterns.  So if you find it hard to forgive, ponder the semantically similar option of just Letting Go.  That way you don't contradict your own inner sense of boundaries, standards and culpability by gifting the other person a free pass, yet allow yourself to Let Go and Move On.  All too often here we find that we can't do anything about the pwBPD or some other acting-out PD, so we just have to grant the equivalent for ourselves to ourselves.  I hope that reasoning makes sense.

Also, a risk of forgiveness is that we Nice Guys and Nice Gals could feel guilted into giving the relationship yet another try.  That's risky because we could be getting right back on the roller coaster if the pwBPD/xPD hasn't truly changed for the better.

Well, i'm still IN the relationship. And yes, I think "Let it go" may fit more tidily here. I know it wasn't okay for my H to call me by my mother's name, knowing she was the person who probably hurt me the most in my life, but I do know he was in some Place of Crazy the times he did. In that full "fight or flight or freeze" adrenalin rush of protecting himself from me, the perceived attacker.

I know that my fear in not forgiving/letting go is that of becoming bitter like my mother did, when that isn't really even my style. And he was able to call me that and other hurtful names because I didn't have the understanding I do now about Not Engaging and having good boundaries to keep myself safe when he goes into that full-on FIGHT mode. I NEED to find a way to "Let go" if I want to be a person at peace rather than a person who thinks every bad thing is worth remembering and recording for posterity like my mother did.

Thanks for your thoughts ForeverDad.

[Matt]

Boundaries make the "forgive or not" question easier, because you can focus on what will happen from here forward.  You don't need to pretend that what happened in the past was OK, and you also don't need to get the other party to agree it wasn't OK.

Decide what's OK for you going forward, and how you will handle situations.  "If you yell at me I will leave the room and won't be around you."  "If you threaten me I will report it to my attorney and take whatever steps she advises." or whatever.  (Or maybe you decide not to say anything to the other party, and just move ahead with your decision - if the other party does X you do Y.)

Looking back, I allowed the situation to get worse - I even told myself it was getting better! - by not setting clear boundaries.  Each new behavior - blaming, accusations, threats - I dealt with passively, by doing nothing at all, which sent the message, "That behavior is OK."  I think my wife was looking for a way to punish me for not doing what she wanted, and each time I accepted a new behavior, she took it to the next level, trying to get a reaction from me.  My passivity made the situation worse.  Setting and maintaining boundaries might not have fixed it - since she had BPD and some other problems, I don't know if the marriage could have been saved without therapy - but it would have made things more manageable and helped me to see my options more clearly.

[DreamFlyer99]

Boundaries make the "forgive or not" question easier, because you can focus on what will happen from here forward.  You don't need to pretend that what happened in the past was OK, and you also don't need to get the other party to agree it wasn't OK.

Decide what's OK for you going forward, and how you will handle situations.  "If you yell at me I will leave the room and won't be around you."  "If you threaten me I will report it to my attorney and take whatever steps she advises." or whatever.  (Or maybe you decide not to say anything to the other party, and just move ahead with your decision - if the other party does X you do Y.)

Looking back, I allowed the situation to get worse - I even told myself it was getting better! - by not setting clear boundaries.  Each new behavior - blaming, accusations, threats - I dealt with passively, by doing nothing at all, which sent the message, "That behavior is OK."  I think my wife was looking for a way to punish me for not doing what she wanted, and each time I accepted a new behavior, she took it to the next level, trying to get a reaction from me.  My passivity made the situation worse.  Setting and maintaining boundaries might not have fixed it - since she had BPD and some other problems, I don't know if the marriage could have been saved without therapy - but it would have made things more manageable and helped me to see my options more clearly.

i'm still trying to understand the balance between "ignoring the negative behavior so I don't reinforce it" and boundaries. I guess the ignoring may still be a boundary, as I would need to be proactive about that action too by not engaging, not making any facial expression that would make him feel i'm responding, I don't know.

But yes, I know I've made things worse by letting his actions go without consequence.

I especially appreciate your words about "you don't need to pretend that what happened in the past was OK, and you also don't need to get the other party to agree it wasn't OK." There's where my "fairness" cries out, wanting him to SEE what he did wasn't nice to such a nice person as me!   But I see where it makes sense to "let it go" rather than seek resolution of some kind.

Thanks for your response.

[Matt]

i'm still trying to understand the balance between "ignoring the negative behavior so I don't reinforce it" and boundaries. I guess the ignoring may still be a boundary, as I would need to be proactive about that action too by not engaging, not making any facial expression that would make him feel i'm responding, I don't know.

Well I'll tell you how it worked in my case - maybe it will work differently for you... .

When my wife accused me of something I didn't do - "I know there's something going on between you and So-And-So!" - often in front of the kids - I was tempted to defend myself, but I knew that didn't work.  So usually I would do nothing - literally - just keep doing whatever I was doing.

If I had it to do over again, I might set a boundary like this:  "If you accuse me of something I didn't do, I will tell each person who is within hearing the truth, very clearly, and then I will end the conversation by not being around you."

So we're at dinner, where she often said stuff like that.  "I know there's something going on between you and So-And-So!".  I could have waited for her to pause, then said, "Kids, I want you all to listen to what I'm going to say.  A few minutes ago Momma said there is something going on between me and another woman.  That is not true - I would never have another girlfriend besides my wife.  And it's not OK to accuse someone of something they didn't do, so I'm going to eat my dinner in the other room so I don't have to hear that anymore."  I would have taken my dinner to another room - end of discussion - all those present have been informed of the truth and that's all I can do.

Not passive... . but would it have fixed the marriage?  I don't think so.  But I think it might have ended those dinnertime accusations.  Or if not at least things would have gone down a different path... .

[briefcase]

I really like the comment by your therapist about hope.  Real hope is rooted in something we have control over - ourselves. While wishful thinking is rooted in waiting for someone else to do the work and change for us.  We've probably all engaged in our share of wishful thinking in these relationships at one time or another.  

So, if your focus is on your partner, what makes them tick, what sets them off, what they need to do to get better, etc. you may be engaged in some wishful thinking.  

If your focus is on yourself, your boundaries, how you communicate, your triggers, etc. you are on a path towards real hope.  

Great observation, thanks for sharing!

[DreamFlyer99]

i'm still trying to understand the balance between "ignoring the negative behavior so I don't reinforce it" and boundaries. I guess the ignoring may still be a boundary, as I would need to be proactive about that action too by not engaging, not making any facial expression that would make him feel i'm responding, I don't know.

If I had it to do over again, I might set a boundary like this:  "If you accuse me of something I didn't do, I will tell each person who is within hearing the truth, very clearly, and then I will end the conversation by not being around you."

all those present have been informed of the truth and that's all I can do.

Not passive... . but would it have fixed the marriage?  I don't think so.  But I think it might have ended those dinnertime accusations.  Or if not at least things would have gone down a different path... .

That makes a lot of sense. Generally my uBPDh saves these "morsels of madness" for alone time with me, at least. But I still sense the need for clear boundary setting in that case as well, to save my own sanity and health. So would "not rewarding" their behavior in your case be that you didn't give her the reaction she wanted (to be pulled into an argument) but simply giving the truth to those around you as needed? Therefore that particular boundary is still active not passive, yet it would not reward, am I getting that right?

Thanks for your thoughtful response Matt!

I really like the comment by your therapist about hope.  Real hope is rooted in something we have control over - ourselves. While wishful thinking is rooted in waiting for someone else to do the work and change for us.  We've probably all engaged in our share of wishful thinking in these relationships at one time or another. 

So, if your focus is on your partner, what makes them tick, what sets them off, what they need to do to get better, etc. you may be engaged in some wishful thinking. 

If your focus is on yourself, your boundaries, how you communicate, your triggers, etc. you are on a path towards real hope. 

Great observation, thanks for sharing!

Super summation, Briefcase!

My statement was actually a response on another thread where it seemed a lot of people were using a heavy dose of wishful thinking, so I shared that tidbit from my T because it was so enlightening for me.

As I read your comments I realized that I STILL am not always aware of when i'm focused on "how can I get him to understand MY needs?" which is useless. I forget that I am not dealing with your basic relationship with your basic person. Sigh.

I guess the truth is that if I am willing to never expect my needs to be met in various areas, and am willing to only improve my end of the relationship, then I can do this. :P

[Grey Kitty]

I guess the truth is that if I am willing to never expect my needs to be met in various areas, and am willing to only improve my end of the relationship, then I can do this. :P

That sounds a bit discouraging, but realistic. My alternative version is that you should accept that some of your needs won't be met by your partner right now, and that you need to get them met in other ways, while you work on your end of the r/s

Improving only your end of the r/s is indeed all you can do, and I think you are starting to see what you need to do there. I guarantee that this work will serve you well, no matter what the final outcome of your r/s is. Work on the Lessons here learn the tools. They will serve you well in your life, not just with disordered people.

Once you feel like you have made the changes you need to make, and your partner has adjusted (for better or worse) to the new version of you, then take some time to re-evaluate. Many have found that upon improving our behavior, our partners rose to the occasion.

"Never" is a long time away!

[123Phoebe]

Once you feel like you have made the changes you need to make, and your partner has adjusted (for better or worse) to the new version of you, then take some time to re-evaluate. Many have found that upon improving our behavior, our partners rose to the occasion.

 

No truer words have ever resonated with me as deeply as Grey Kitty's, right here.

I do this periodically, while continuing to work on myself.  It's been said that relationships of this nature are marathons not sprints.  So I jog for a while, stop to catch a breather and check in with myself, then try a few new things... .

I used to call my pwBPD a commitment phobic SOB!  Ha, have found out he's got nothin' on me... .  I have attachment issues to the max!  It's getting better though... .  My codependent behaviors that pushed him way awaaaaaaaay are under control and I'm better able to recognize when they're reappearing  

I have issues too, woo hoo!  And it's okay  Because I can always work on myself; there's hope for me yet

[DreamFlyer99]

That sounds a bit discouraging, but realistic. My alternative version is that you should accept that some of your needs won't be met by your partner right now, and that you need to get them met in other ways, while you work on your end of the r/s

Improving only your end of the r/s is indeed all you can do, and I think you are starting to see what you need to do there. I guarantee that this work will serve you well, no matter what the final outcome of your r/s is. Work on the Lessons here learn the tools. They will serve you well in your life, not just with disordered people.

Once you feel like you have made the changes you need to make, and your partner has adjusted (for better or worse) to the new version of you, then take some time to re-evaluate. Many have found that upon improving our behavior, our partners rose to the occasion.

"Never" is a long time away!

ALL great stuff Grey Kitty, as always--

if it sounds discouraging that's because I am on the roller coaster of "okay GOOD. I am working on ME" which is followed by the twist of "Holy Batman, is he never gonna work on him?" and the turn of "this is NEVERENDING!" Which, I assume, is par for the course in these early stages i'm in.

Some of the unmet needs are unmeetable by others outside the r/s, know what I mean? and some, well, they died out early on but I just didn't realize how profoundly they died. And some of them, of course, I've become more aware of as I've become more familiar with who I am and the types of things that speak love to me. So as I've grown I've seen a better picture of what is important to me in a relationship. But, I will just keep on keepin' on and who knows, maybe my guy will grow too and realize what he has in me!

Once you feel like you have made the changes you need to make, and your partner has adjusted (for better or worse) to the new version of you, then take some time to re-evaluate. Many have found that upon improving our behavior, our partners rose to the occasion.

I do this periodically, while continuing to work on myself.  It's been said that relationships of this nature are marathons not sprints.  So I jog for a while, stop to catch a breather and check in with myself, then try a few new things... .


I have issues too, woo hoo!  And it's okay   Because I can always work on myself; there's hope for me yet

Don't we all, 123Phoebe, don't we all! Those words of Grey Kitty's do hold some promise of a better tomorrow, even if it's only for myself. And I hear ya, this BPD stuff is DEFinitely marathon country!

I've often wished I could carry my T around with me in my pocket to pull out in situations i'm unsure of, but until they make one of those i'll just have to keep learning myself, right?